Peter Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 5 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: I like Zelenskyy, but I never framed him in my mind as the hero standing up to the villain Putin. Both are sleazy. So . . . who is using force to take away the lives of innocents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 5, 2022 Author Share Posted March 5, 2022 2 hours ago, Peter said: So . . . who is using force to take away the lives of innocents? Peter, Both sides. That's the way war works. But I grant that Putin invaded. He's wrong for that. But not wrong enough for the USA to involve the blood of young Americans. Why? Because the US has no treaty to defend Ukraine and no American citizens were harmed to my knowledge by the invasion. So that matter is between Russia and Ukraine. On the other hand, how many US citizens have been involved in corruption and embezzlement in Zelensky's Ukraine--going all the way up to the son of the person currently occupying the office of the presidency in the US? Dig in and you will be surprised. I would be outraged if a single drop of American blood were shed to defend Zelensky or Putin right now. Or shed to attack either in the current situation, for that matter. Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 I saw this meme on FB, followed by a debate over "who started it", Russia or Ukraine. Then the debate turned to the topic of "innocence" of Ukraine's military, re: the charge of neo-Nazi groups within. One of the objections was that since "racist" and "Nazi" has been misused so often (on purporse) in the last few years to tar anyone not on the left, that it automatically raises skepticism, while others are "tired of seeing Godwin's Law" used to deflect from actually Nazi's, pointing to the "Azov Battalion" in the Ukraine miliary. So, then, are there actual Nazi-like "far right" sympathizers in Ukraine? Well, it's never that easy, is it? As if they would actually admit it outright. They deny that they are such. And yet, they do apparently use Nazi symbols, specifically, the "Wolf's Anger", which was used by the SS. However, representatives of the Azov Battalion say "the symbol is an abbreviation for the slogan Ідея Нації (Ukrainian for "National Idea") and deny connection with Nazism." But then, would their "National Idea" translate into "National Socialism"? Depends on what they stand for. [Spoiler alert: their denial is typical linguistic bullshit, typical of the way socialists and fascists argue against each other. Per According to Biletsky, founder of the Social-National Assembly: "the main distinction between Nazism and Social Nationalism is the fact that Nazism is more socialist, while Social Nationalism is more nationalist.[18] At the same time justification in Social Nationalism over Nationalism lays in importance of a social revolution to achieve national revolution."] My starting point is Wiki, not for accuracy, per se, but to get the general feel of the charges. But so far, all signs point to "yes, there is a Nazi contingent in the Ukraine army, based on their own stated goals and beliefs, with the denials centered around the method of their madness: Azov Battalion - Wikipedia EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG From the beginning of the Wiki entry: Quote Azov Special Operations Detachment (Ukrainian: Окремий загін спеціального призначення «Азов», romanized: Okremyi zahin spetsialnoho pryznachennia "Azov"), often known as Azov Detachment, Azov Regiment (Ukrainian: Полк Азов, romanized: Polk Azov), or Azov Battalion (until September 2014), is a right-wing extremist[1] and neo-Nazi[2][3][4] unit of the National Guard of Ukraine,[5][6][7] based in Mariupol, in the Azov Sea coastal region.[8] It has been fighting Russian separatist forces in the Donbas War. Azov initially formed as a volunteer militia in May 2014.[9] It saw its first combat experience recapturing Mariupol from pro-Russian separatists in June 2014.[5] On 12 November 2014, Azov was incorporated into the National Guard of Ukraine, and since then all members are contract soldiers serving in the National Guard.[10] In 2014, the regiment gained attention after allegations of torture and war crimes, as well as neo-Nazi sympathies and usage of associated symbols by the regiment, as seen in their logo featuring the Wolfsangel, one of the original symbols used by the 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich. Representatives of the Azov Battalion say the symbol is an abbreviation for the slogan Ідея Нації (Ukrainian for "National Idea") and deny connection with Nazism.[11] In 2014, a spokesman for the regiment said around 10–20% of the unit were neo-Nazis.[12] In 2018, a provision in an appropriations bill passed by the United States Congress blocked military aid to Azov on the grounds of its white supremacist ideology; in 2015, a similar ban on aid to the group had been overturned by Congress.[2][3] Members of the regiment come from 22 countries and are of various backgrounds.[13][14] In 2017, the size of the regiment was estimated at more than 2,500 members.[15] The unit's first commander was far-right nationalist Andriy Biletsky, who led the neo-Nazi Social-National Assembly and Patriot of Ukraine.[16][17] In its early days, Azov was a special police company of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, led by Volodymyr Shpara, the leader of the Vasylkiv, Kyiv, branch of Patriot of Ukraine and Right Sector.[18][19][20] In 2016, veterans of the regiment and members of a non-governmental organization named "Azov Civil Corps" created the political party National Corps.[21] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 11 hours ago, Peter said: So . . . who is using force to take away the lives of innocents? There are accusations that the Azov Battlion within the Ukraine Army may have...(I can neither confirm nor deny, just "teaching the controversy). I'm personally looking further into the accusations in the comment I am made before this one. But this is the gist of the claim: "In 2014, the regiment gained attention after allegations of torture and war crimes, as well as neo-Nazi sympathies and usage of associated symbols by the regiment, as seen in their logo featuring the Wolfsangel, one of the original symbols used by the 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich." Azov Battalion - Wikipedia EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG See also the "Patriot of Ukraine": "It constituted a paramilitary wing of the S.N.A., an assemblage of Ukrainian neo-Nazi organizations and groups[6][7][8] founded in 2008 that share the social-national ideology and agree upon building a social-national state in Ukraine.[9][10][11] Both the Patriot of Ukraine and the S.N.A. engaged in political violence against minorities and their political opponents.[5][12][13]" Patriot of Ukraine - Wikipedia EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 RE: the denial by the Azov Battalion of the Nazi connection, saying that their symbol represents "the National Idea": Welp, since Nazi was short for "National Socialism", let's see where this Azov Battalion stands with their "National Idea". (Spoiler: the term "Special Police company" comes up...now, who else had a "special police company"? "In 2017, the size of the regiment was estimated at more than 2,500 members.[15] The unit's first commander was far-right nationalist Andriy Biletsky, who led the neo-Nazi Social-National Assembly and Patriot of Ukraine.[16][17] In its early days, Azov was a special police company of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, led by Volodymyr Shpara, the leader of the Vasylkiv, Kyiv, branch of Patriot of Ukraine and Right Sector." Who, then, are the "Social-National Assembly" and "Patriot of Ukraine", and what do they stand for? Social-National Assembly - Wikipedia EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG Quote The Social-National Assembly (SNA) was an assemblage of the ultra-nationalist and neo-Nazi radical organizations and groups founded in 2008 that share the social-national ideology and agree upon building a social-national state in Ukraine. It is located on the far right of the Ukrainian politics and built around the "Patriot of Ukraine". In late November 2013, both the S.N.A. and the "Patriot of Ukraine" entered in an association with several other Ukrainian far-right groups which led to the formation of the Right Sector.[1] The S.N.A. is also reported to be close to Svoboda, and Yuriy Zbitnyev, the leader of the nationalist political party "Nova Syla" (New Force).[2][3] The S.N.A.'s activities are largely Kyiv-based.[1] And their ideology? Ideology Quote According to the founder of the organization, Biletsky states that Social-Nationalism is based on three pillars: Racism, Socialism and Great Power.[18] The ideology stands in a strong opposition to any form of liberalism or democracy.[18] Under Socialism in Social Nationalist ideology means third position in economics, authoritative power, and fair distribution among national producers.[18] According to Biletsky, the main distinction between Nazism and Social Nationalism is the fact that Nazism is more socialist, while Social Nationalism is more nationalist.[18] At the same time justification in Social Nationalism over Nationalism lays in importance of a social revolution to achieve national revolution.[18] Political scientist Anton Shekhovtsov, Foreign Policy journalist Alec Luhn and Haaretz journalist Lolita Brayman describe the S.N.A as a far-right, neo-Nazi or racist group.[1][3][19] The S.N.A is also a "street combat movement" hostile to ethnic and social minorities: according to researchers and its own website it has carried out physical attacks against them.[3][6][7][8] Over half the membership of the Azov Battalion, a Social-National Assembly military group, is composed of Russian-speaking eastern Ukrainians.[20] A ministerial adviser, Anton Gerashchenko, denies neo-Nazi allegations, stating, "The Social-National Assembly is not a neo-Nazi organization… It is a party of Ukrainian patriots."[21][22] Patriot of Ukraine - Wikipedia EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG The Patriot of Ukraine (Ukrainian: Патріо́т Украї́ни, romanized: Patriót Ukrayíny) was an ultranationalist organization in Ukraine founded in 2005 and defunct since December 2014. The group was described as having racist and neo-Nazi political beliefs.[1][2][3][4][5] The leader of the Patriot of Ukraine and of the Social-National Assembly of Ukraine (S.N.A.) was Andriy Biletsky. It constituted a paramilitary wing of the S.N.A., an assemblage of Ukrainian neo-Nazi organizations and groups[6][7][8] founded in 2008 that share the social-national ideology and agree upon building a social-national state in Ukraine.[9][10][11] Both the Patriot of Ukraine and the S.N.A. engaged in political violence against minorities and their political opponents.[5][12][13] And their ideology? Quote Ideology and program The Patriot of Ukraine promoted an extreme nationalist, racist, islamophobic and neo-Nazi platform,[1][2][3][4][5] including:[28][29] Political violence[5][12] Racism[1][3][4] Neo-Nazism[2][4] Nationocracy Racialism Aryanism Rejection of democracy and liberalism Anti-globalism Anti-Zionism Anti-Islam Direct action National solidarity National hierarchy Fuhrerism as principle of leadership Obedience and personal devotion to the national leader Greater Ukraine, i.e. the creation of the Third Ukrainian Empire (after Scythia and Kievan Rus') from the Baltic to the Caucuses If it walks like a Nazi, and it talks like a Nazi... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 Michael wrote, “I would be outraged if a single drop of American blood were shed to defend Zelensky or Putin right now.” There was an article on the net about ex American soldiers going over to defend Ukraine but I didn’t read it. I too, do not like the idea of Americans being killed or captured by Russia. However, I think Russia Initiated Force as Randians say, and not the other way around. The past fighting in Southern Ukraine complicates things but this invasion definitely puts Russia in the wrong and to be redundant, not the other way around. Russia is slaughtering innocents and Ukraine is not. as far as Ukraine having neo Nazis as ThatGuy showed? I had not heard that, but once again, it does not change the fact that innocents in Ukraine are dying because their country is being invaded and destroyed. I hope Red China doesn’t go after Taiwan next. Perhaps our economic sanctions will have an effect on Russia and China will not do the dirty deed. The world was a better place just after the Olympics . . . but now this . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 47 minutes ago, Peter said: as far as Ukraine having neo Nazis as ThatGuy showed? I had not heard that, but once again, it does not change the fact that innocents in Ukraine are dying because their country is being invaded and destroyed. It may not change the fact, but then again, maybe it does. It's not as if the Nazis are known for their "non-aggression principle..." At the very least, it should spur one on, if one is not aware of it, to at least look deeper into the situation before dismissing its importance in this situation. As documented in those Wiki entries, and if true, the fact that there were terrorist acts committed by these Ukrainian neo-fascists against minorities and foreigners, prior to this invasion, may add more context. (And it shows they are not "innocent" Nazi organizations.) But even just limiting it to, and stipulating to the premise of innocent civilians: Namely, are those innocents dying partly as a result of those terrorist acts? This didn't all happen inside a vacuum, nor spring directly from the metaphorical head of Zeus, fully grown...and it has even been said that one of Putin's "reasons" for doing this is in response to a Nazi-like threat: Putin's claim of fighting against Ukraine 'neo-Nazis' distorts history, scholars say | Nevada Public Radio KNPR.ORG Of course, that could be a smoke-screen, as well, just like communists claim they are fighting fascists. They are still of the same ilk. So this is not to defend Putin/Russia, btw. More like suggesting this is more like gang warfare on a broader scale. You don't side with either the Bloods or the Crips just because of innoncents caught in the crossfire, just like one doesn't side with either Fascists or Socialists for that reason...regardless of who started what at any particular time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 8 minutes ago, ThatGuy said: This is not to defend Putin/Russia, btw. More like suggesting this is more like gang warfare on a broader scale. You don't side with either the Bloods nor the Crips just because of innoncents caught in the crossfire, just like one doesn't side with Fascists vs. Socialists for that reason... Well said. But I think of Ukraine, not as a rival gang, but as a country being invaded and then dying as it is absorbed into the new Russian empire. I saw that a Finnish gentleman (Finland shares a large border with Russian,) was talking to the U.S. I think Finland would rather be on the border with Ukraine before the invasion, than Russia. Who's worse, Ukraine or Russia? Is this stupid, violent invasion the beginning of Russia's expansion? America has feared a nuclear war with Russia since the fifties. Does anyone remember school kids learning to drop and put their hands over their heads if they saw a "flash" or if sirens went off? There are videos of that. I think if you drop to the ground, you will receive less immediate radiation because the curvature of the earth will offer some protection. So, drop and lay low if . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 RE: the "gang warfare" metaphor for Ukraine and Russia: of course, there are important differences, but in principle: see discussions of this in Murray Rothbard's FOR A NEW LIBERTY and Chris Matthew Sciabarra's in AYN RAND: THE RUSSIAN RADICAL. And as for the Nazi element in Ukraine: those same leftists in the U.S. who were urging on Antifa to go around and "punch a Nazi" (Nazi being "anyone who votes differently from me") under the rubric of being "Anti-Fascist" can't get around the hypocrisy of supporting the Ukraine military, which does seem to contain actual Nazi elements... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 Here goes Ted Cruz, trying to get the U.S. involved...guessing his neocon side is showing through... Ted Cruz is just another neocon globalist - Personal Liberty® PERSONALLIBERTY.COM Lofty campaign rhetoric and captured media spin that he is an “outsider” notwithstanding, Ted Cruz is just another neocon... Ted Cruz's Closest Counselors Are Neocons - The New American THENEWAMERICAN.COM Ted Cruz has chosen several Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) and neocon notables to be his foreign policy advisors... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 5, 2022 Author Share Posted March 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Peter said: But I think of Ukraine, not as a rival gang, but as a country being invaded and then dying as it is absorbed into the new Russian empire. Peter, Ukraine won't die. Just like Iraq didn't die. The West has to stop making Franken-Countries made up of social groups that are incompatible at best and despise each other at worst--and then telling the people there to get along. Don't forget that it was not the people in the region who designed the borders of the country they live in. Some idiot elites did that negotiating with other idiot elites. Think of Ukraine like the Republican Party right now. If you call someone a Republican, are you saying that person is the same as Adam Kissinger or Bill Krystol? Or would you say that person is the same as Marjorie Taylor Greene and Steve Bannon? All of them are Republicans. So is the current predominance of MAGA going to destroy the Republican Party? Will the Republican Party go out of existence? No. The Adam Kissingers and Bill Krystols are free to move on if they wish. In fact, they would be happier and the MAGA people would be happier, too, if they did. And if the current Dems absorb them, "annex" them so to speak, the underlying feeling would be that they landed where they belong and the Republican Party did not suffer one whit. Ditto for Ukraine as a country. Politically, part of it is Russian and part of it is pure corrupt Western elitist bullshit. And the two sides dislike each other intensely. Those are the only real political stakes country-wise. What are we going to defend? Borders cobbled together incompetently by idiot elites, or splitting two sides that hate each other while each side is craving the entire country for itself? (In reality, the vast majority of Ukraine on both sides is made up of a long-suffering hard-working people who want neither of the two. They just want to live their lives, take care of their families, be good people in general.) The wildcard is if Putin decides to expand his plans. That's where NATO actually means something. If he hits a NATO country, the entire group of countries in NATO are obligated by treaty to hit back. There's another problem. We are not getting correct information. The information coming from Ukraine keeps being one lie after another that gets busted. What the Russians are saying these days is hard to get because the idiots in power on our side are censoring it. So how are we going to evaluate things if we can't identify them? Are we going to just rely on a story in our heads? The loudest propaganda in our media? Feelings? I believe we have to see what we are shooting at, know what we are shooting at, before we shoot. Not just guess that it must be this or that or whatever and then pull the trigger. And the truth is, we can't see or know anything without a means to see and know. Currently, as a public, we don't have that means other than the Internet. And that comes with all views from all sides, including the propagandists, authoritarians and kooks. So even though some truth gets through, by what standard do we judge that truth? Our own prejudices? That won't work. The only way to get any sort of objective value from that, correct information from that, is to be ruthlessly objective in looking at all information from everyone and judging by information-related standards. And that starts with being able to verify something by more objective standards than just looking at someone saying it. That's hard when emotions run hot. It's even hard for me, especially if I have to consider something as true that I really don't like because it's the only credible information in a sea of lies and manipulations I can get. So it's tough to fit the initiation of force thing as a measure in this situation. We need to make logical pretzels and blank out a lot to do that. For example, who did Putin initiate force against? The Ukrainians who welcomed him with open arms or the Ukrainians who have been fighting and sabotaging shit before the invasion (in other words, initiating force themselves)? In fact, which of those two sides are the real Ukrainians to initiate force against? And there are problems to include in using the initiation of force rule that I won't even go into right now like asymmetric or unrestricted warfare (information, cyber, kinetic) and China. Like I keep saying, the Russia-Ukraine thing is not our problem. That's not a hard and fast rule, but it fits our situation right now as the best alternative. If we let them figure it out, they probably will. If we let Biden and his people figure it out, we all know he's going to fuck it up and probably start a nuclear war. As Bannon keeps saying, "Elections have consequences. Stolen elections have catastrophic consequences." In short, morality-wise, there is no single rule to guide everyone right now. We are in improvise-time, very similar to what Rand called a life-boat situation. Except we're not even in the boat. Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 Michael wrote: “In short, morality-wise, there is no single rule to guide everyone right now. We are in improvise-time, very similar to what Rand called a life-boat situation. Except we're not even in the boat.” end quote Your position would then be to not supply arms to Ukraine, to not denounce Russia in the United Nations, to not Stop supporting Russia by buying their oil, to not accept civilian refugees in Poland, which is a member of NATO, etc.? We should stay totally neutral? A real paranoid jest / idea would be that OL has been taken over by Russian hackers. The news is reporting Russia is targeting civilians. And you can see whole blocks of civilian housing damaged by Russian artillery. I want to thank the reporters who are still there . . . and the Ukrainian’s use of cell phones and their evidence if not proof, on the internet. This is not a world war, but an invasion by a larger country to expand their empire at whatever cost. It is murder. It is the use of brutal force to take away the rights of a whole country. We are not even in the boat? How can there be a neutral position on this situation? I am not suggesting we tell Russia “or else . . .” but we should cut them off from the pluses of freedom, association, and enterprise. We should do what we can, short of war, to “contain” Russia. As I mentioned other countries near Russia, like Finland, are very worried. What if Finland and Sweden want to join NATO? Do we say “nyet?” Since when does Russia tell us what to do . . .or else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 54 minutes ago, Peter said: Your position would then be to not supply arms to Ukraine, to not denounce Russia in the United Nations, to not Stop supporting Russia by buying their oil, to not accept civilian refugees in Poland, which is a member of NATO, etc.? We should stay totally neutral? A real paranoid jest / idea would be that OL has been taken over by Russian hackers. I'll take "things a neocon might say for $600, Alex..." (See, it can work both ways, if that's how one chooses to engage in this discussion...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 It may not be a neo con thing anymore. I see the U.S. DOJ is locking up Russian Oligarch''s funds here. Bum, bum, bum, bum. Can't touch this. Apparently, the U.S. policy is pretty much what my policy would be, and I don't think Biden is a neocon. From Fox. Anti-war protesters rally in support of Ukraine. I think that was in Times Square, but I had the sound turned down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 5, 2022 Author Share Posted March 5, 2022 40 minutes ago, Peter said: Your position would then be to not supply arms to Ukraine, to not denounce Russia in the United Nations, to not Stop supporting Russia by buying their oil, to not accept civilian refugees in Poland, which is a member of NATO, etc.? We should stay totally neutral? Peter, See how emotions work? Please read what I wrote and take that to mean what I mean. It's better than putting a whole lot of words into my mouth and characterizing them as my real intent. Once again, you cannot evaluate something correctly until you have identified it correctly. With that particular post, you totally misidentified what I wrote. Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 5, 2022 Author Share Posted March 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, Peter said: I don't think Biden is a neocon. Peter, Did he and his family and friends and cohorts take massive amounts of embezzlement money out of Ukraine and China? And Russia, for that matter? That's your guy? That's the guy you trust to fight a war? Just so the record is clear, he's not mine. Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 5, 2022 Author Share Posted March 5, 2022 8 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: That's your guy? That's the guy you trust to fight a war? Let me add this. If we have to go to war with Russia, I want to win. I want to crush them if we are in a shooting war. And if war happens and I survive, I don't want to have to learn Russian. Following Biden and his cronies will lead directly to the USA losing such a war and lessons in the Russian language, that is if the world does not get blown up. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 Michael wrote: That's your guy? That's the guy you trust to fight a war? Just so the record is clear, he's not mine. end quote Of course not. But I will support America’s policies and not buy any Russian vodka. Whew. Fox is reshowing the reporters car being deliberately shot up. I ask everyone again, would your position would be to not supply arms to Ukraine, to not denounce Russia in the United Nations, to not Stop supporting Russia by buying their oil, to not accept civilian refugees in Poland, which is a member of NATO, etc.? What will the world look like in a week? Does Putin have much support even in Russia? I may have mentioned this, but Senator Graham said somebody should take Putin down. If that happened would anybody cry? I doubt it. From USA Today back on March 2nd. WASHINGTON – In just a matter of days, Russian President Vladimir Putin sure has changed a lot of peoples' minds – against himself and Russia. Germany is shattering decades of pacifism. Sweden and Switzerland are abandoning their notions of neutrality and acting in concert to punish Putin for his invasion of Ukraine. The result is an aggressive western European unity not seen since the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 – plus Cold War-style threats of violence, including nuclear threats from an increasingly cornered Putin. Though the Russian president may have hoped to divide Western allies over a response to his unprovoked war, the stunning invasion instead triggered an international sea change that forced European countries to reckon with the most serious security challenge to the continent since World War II, according to Liana Fix, a German historian and political scientist who is a resident at the German Marshall Fund. While Putin has sought to reshape European security – including his demands to roll back NATO's eastward expansion and removal of U.S. nuclear weapons from Europe – the invasion of Ukraine brought the threat to the EU's doorstep. "For the first time, the European Union saw a real threat perception and a threat in Europe that has left the EU to fight for itself with unprecedented measures," Fix said. "The Ukraine war is perceived as a threat to European security because Moscow's demands extend beyond Ukraine's borders." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 5, 2022 Author Share Posted March 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, Peter said: Of course not. But I will support America’s policies and not buy any Russian vodka. Peter, Now we're talking. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 For those interested in the ARI/orgOist take... Via Yaron Brook: February 28, 2022 American Appeasement of Russia Led to War in Ukraine By Daniel Duffy "I am not saying we should have gone to war with Russia. I am saying there is plenty the West could have done to deter Russian aggression outside military action: sanctions with teeth, diversifying energy, and morally condemning the hell out of their aggression, for starters."https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2022/02/american_appeasement_of_russia_led_to_war_in_ukraine.html#.YiOpZkefpS4.twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 6, 2022 Author Share Posted March 6, 2022 Have no fear, everybody. The cavalry is on the way. Clinton Global Initiative restarted to tackle urgent needs Wire WWW.TIMESLEADERONLINE.COM Those Clinton assholes can smell situations for graft and corruption like nobody. And they are not saying anything about Ukraine and the Foundation right now, but they will go there and will be promising they are there to help the poor victimized Ukrainians. But in Ukraine, there is going to be more money flying all over the place over the next months and none of it will got to the people. But the Clintons intend to get their cut. So the cavalry is not really coming. And the bugle player has been sucking on lemons. so his fanfare calls don't sound too good... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 6, 2022 Author Share Posted March 6, 2022 On 3/3/2022 at 2:29 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said: As an odd view, I saw the take by Scott Adams. He thinks the Russians will be defeated, but not by the Ukrainians per se. He thinks supply chain issues will hamper the Russian armed forces to the point of shutdown because the tanks need to stay on paved road, not the mud where they will get bogged down. He said that the Ukrainians probably let the forces in without a fight knowing that all they will have to fight against are Russian attempts to provide fuel and supplies. I often get pissed at Scott Adams, but I keep coming back for more. Why? To me he is like Alex Jones. He's a bulldozer, not a precision instrument. Whereas Alex will flood you with facts the Deep State and predator class want to remain hidden, Scott will flood you with information, but more toward dot-connecting and persuasion techniques. Both sometimes are off and when that happens, I get pissed. I admit I get more pissed at Scott than Alex. I think it's because Alex's full-blown paranoia tone does not resonate with me whereas Scott's reasonable tone does. Anyway, despite this, sometimes Scott knocks it out of the park and into the next town. He did with the following video. Not just once. Twice. More things we are learning about the Ukrainian invasion. Yikes. WWW.BITCHUTE.COM Here's a short gist of his two homers. 1. This has nothing to do with Ukraine, but it's still a homer. Remember the Khashoggi assassination in a Saudi Arabian embassy? And remember that Trump did not do anything about it? Scott thinks this is a solid Trump did for Saudi Arabia to create leverage, a need for Saudi Arabia to do a solid right back. Enter the Abraham Accords. Now, as an extension of that, Saudi Arabia is considering a partnership with Israel. Scott believes Trump will never get credit for this, but in his view, it came down to Trump reading the realpolitik tea leaves and making the best of a bad situation to get what he wanted. 2. Scott believes Ukraine is lost to Russia, but Putin is also paying a super-high price due to the financial war being waged. So he thinks the best resolution for in this entire situation is to do a typical Trump move. He thinks Putin should be offered full amnesty for his invasion of Ukraine and even let him keep it. In exchange, Putin agrees to sever all partnership ties with China and even participate in actions limiting and punishing China, especially for developing and releasing a bioweapon on humanity. Putin does not want any help from China anyway because such help always comes with a high price. And he will be loathe to continue invading other countries knowing how steep a financial price Russia will have to pay. Boom. That, to me, is world-class thinking. I don't know if it will happen, but, man, the world would be a much better and much safer place if it did. And once Trump gets back in office, I bet he considers it. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 This is hard to see, but this is where things are, and how it affects everyday people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 TG, I was thinking about this. Hard to tell why an average citizen of Russia - or Russian sportsman, racing driver, dancer, journalist, musician, etc. - had to be pin-pointed and banned...along with Putin and his regime. By their accident of birthplace? There is apparently a witch-hunt ongoing to sanction anyone who is 'symbolic' of "Russia" and therefore 'associated' with Putin's wrongful invasion. Not just to target Russian produce and exports, but the people too. (Very much socialist - i.e. 'the people' are "a natural resource"). As if any one were personally responsible, gaining benefit from, and has influence to change the outcome of the war. "Russia" and "Russian govt". does not signify or represent every Russian. Normal fare today - collective punishment by group, and social 'canceling' is habitual in the West, right at the time when civilized nations could be showing off individualist liberties and standards, they've opted instead for blanket penalties of all Russian cvilians. For the present, for also morally condemning Putin's acts, one may find oneself uncomfortably aligned with every virtue-signaler, Wokeist, lefty, authoritarian and anti-individualist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmj Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 Is NATO, broadly, a mechanism to evade the constitutional mandate that declarations of war need to come from Congress? Maybe time for a Natxit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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