Ukraine and Endless War for Profit

[ThatGuy]

5 hours ago, anthony said:

TG, I was thinking about this. Hard to tell why an average citizen of Russia - or Russian sportsman, racing driver, dancer, journalist, musician, etc. - had to be pin-pointed, identified and banned...along with Putin and his regime. By their accident of birthplace? There is apparently a witch-hunt ongoing to sanction anyone who is 'symbolic' of "Russia" and therefore 'associated' with Putin's wrongful invasion.

Not just to target Russian produce and exports, but the people too. (Very much socialist - i.e. 'the people' are "a natural resource"). As if any one were personally responsible, gaining benefit, or has influence to change the outcome of the war.

"Russia" and "Russian govt". does not signify or represent every Russian. Normal fare - collective punishment by group, and social 'canceling' is habitual in the West, right at the time civilized nations could be showing off individualist liberties and standards they've opted for blanket penalties.

For the present, for also morally condemning Putin's acts, one may find oneself uncomfortably aligned with every virtue-signaler, Wokeist, lefty, authoritarian and anti-individualist. 

 

[tmj]

There seems to be a theme here..

[Peter]

TMJ wrote: There seems to be a theme here..

Agreed. The tactic of placing sanctions on countries and individuals has always been the doing of  . . . countries and individuals.

Neil Goodell wrote on an old thread, “Exercise in Concretizing:” . . . . In the scenario I set up, the only government on the island is its inhabitants. In principle, government is only a proxy for actions the individual members believe are morally proper -- it has their implicit sanction for everything it does. Situating the thought experiment on an island eliminates the proxy -- the middleman -- so it is the community members directly who must enforce their principles. end quote

Unfortunately, individuals suffer the consequences in Russia of sanctions placed on them by 99 percent of the United Nations. Their option is to protest and get rid of Putin. Until then they also bear the brunt of sanctions because their leaders are invading, killing, and maiming. I remember the American protests against the Vietnam War. They did not work because it took years to get us out and we are a freer country than Russia. Morally and tactically sanctions should stay on after Russia finishes enslaving Ukraine, until Putin is removed.     

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

33 minutes ago, Peter said:

Their option is to protest and get rid of Putin. Until then they also bear the brunt of sanctions because their leaders are invading, killing, and maiming.

Peter,

In other words, Ayn Rand was responsible for Nixon? 

And it was proper for her to bear punishment because he invaded, killed, and maimed, and also did crazy stuff like the wage-price freeze and, worst of all, opened Communist China to the West for trade? 

Oh, Rand bitched about Nixon, but she never did anything to get rid of him. On the contrary, she worked hard to see him elected.

Michael

[tmj]

Peter

So who is Trudeau trying to get his citizens to remove? (via electronic payment and bank account sanctioning)

ps

Is there a meaningful discticntion to be made between country and government and what is a sanction?

[Peter]

3 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

In other words, Ayn Rand was responsible for Nixon? 

Of course not, as long as she worked to put a more freedom orientated persons in all areas of government. The Russians elected Putin if I remember and then he appointed himself dictator.

I found a few references to Rand and Nixon.

No one can guard rights, except a government under objective laws. What if McGovern had his gang of policemen, and Nixon had his, and instead of campaigning they fought in the streets? This has happened throughout history. Rational men are not afraid of government. In a proper society, a rational man doesn’t have to know the government exists, because the laws are clear and he never breaks them. [FHF 72] . . 

A: First of all, to clear up a certain confusion I can’t believe exists in your mind about my stand: since I’m obviously a defender of reason, individualism, you can gather that, logically, that I am also a defender of capitalism—pure capitalism. I am not an apologist for the Nixon administration [applause] or any mixed-economy administration. Now I think Nixon is a great improvement over his predecessor— several of them [applause], including Eisenhower [louder The Journal of Ayn R 112 and Studies Vol. 11, No. 1 (Issue 21) applause]—and I did vote for him [applause], but I certainly would not, uh, attempt to justify, or think that all the laws they have, the measures they take or policies, are all rational. No, I am probably more in disagreement with the present policies than I might find some with which I would be in temporary agreement . . . .

McDowell: That is a great change from the Russians I have always known, and I have known a lot of them. Don't they do things at all like Americans? Don't they walk across town to visit their mother-in-law or somebody?

Rand: Look, it is very hard to explain. It is almost impossible to convey to a free people what it is like to live in a totalitarian dictatorship. I can tell you a lot of details. I can never completely convince you, because you are free. It is in a way good that you can't even conceive of what it is like. Certainly they have friends and mothers-in-law. They try to live a human life, but you understand it is totally inhuman. Try to imagine what it is like if you are in constant terror from morning till night and at night you are waiting for the doorbell to ring, where you are afraid of anything and everybody, living in a country where human life is nothing, less than nothing, and you know it. You don't know who or when is going to do what to you because you may have friends who spy on you, where there is no law and any rights of any kind.

McDowell: You came here in 1926, I believe you said. Did you escape from Russia?

Rand: No.

McDowell: Did you have a passport?

Rand: No. Strangely enough, they gave me a passport to come out here as a visitor.

McDowell: As a visitor?

Rand: It was at a time when they relaxed their orders a little bit. Quite a few people got out. I had some relatives here and I was permitted to come here for a year. I never went back.

McDowell: I see.

Chairman Thomas: Mr. Nixon.

Rep. Richard M. Nixon26: No questions.

Chairman Thomas: All right. The first witness tomorrow morning will be Adolph Menjou.27

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Here is great news.

TikTok is essentially Chinese.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

2 minutes ago, Peter said:

[FHF 72] . . 

Peter,

I remember being actually at that speech in Boston.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

3 minutes ago, Peter said:

... as long as she worked to put a more freedom orientated persons in all areas of government.

Peter,

Actually, Rand did not do that.

She wrote an essay around the time of Nixon called "It's Earlier Than You Think" or something like that where she told "students of Objectivism" to leave politics alone and focus on education.

After that essay, I can't recall anything she did politically or involving the government.

She was happy when President Ford brought Alan Greenspan to Washington and she went to see him sworn in, but she didn't do anything to get him there.

Michael

[anthony]

5 hours ago, Peter said:

TMJ wrote: There seems to be a theme here..

Agreed. The tactic of placing sanctions on countries and individuals has always been the doing of  . . . countries and individuals.

Neil Goodell wrote on an old thread, “Exercise in Concretizing:” . . . . In the scenario I set up, the only government on the island is its inhabitants. In principle, government is only a proxy for actions the individual members believe are morally proper -- it has their implicit sanction for everything it does. Situating the thought experiment on an island eliminates the proxy -- the middleman -- so it is the community members directly who must enforce their principles. end quote

Unfortunately, individuals suffer the consequences in Russia of sanctions placed on them by 99 percent of the United Nations. Their option is to protest and get rid of Putin. Until then they also bear the brunt of sanctions because their leaders are invading, killing, and maiming. I remember the American protests against the Vietnam War. They did not work because it took years to get us out and we are a freer country than Russia. Morally and tactically sanctions should stay on after Russia finishes enslaving Ukraine, until Putin is removed.     

"until Putin is removed" - sounds good ... in theory. And who of the citizens would attempt such a dangerous mission?

Call it - civilians being collectively targeted for sanctions - what it is first:

A. Retribution. Civilians are suffering in the Ukraine by Putin's doing, therefore civilians must also suffer in Russia. B. Frustration. NATO is superfluous and toothless for this fight, so the western powers must release their frustration ... on anyone available to them, non-combatants included.

 

 

[anthony]

Autocracy, "personalist dictatorship", or dictatorship?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjpqNOoyrL2AhUYQvEDHYykCKMQFnoECAsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fslate.com%2Fnews-and-politics%2F2022%2F02%2Fukraine-invasion-putin-is-ruling-alone.html&usg=AOvVaw3thRmLf_fQwOww_jX15z3i

[Peter]

1 hour ago, anthony said:

"until Putin is removed" - sounds good ... in theory.

I agree Putin will poison or shoot any "high ranking" civilian opposition. That leaves mass demonstrations with police cooperation OR the military.

[tmj]

Or take membership in NATO off the table ?

Or I guess it would be great to see a fight to the last Ukrainian and then Russian , for democracy .

I hope they have enough masks for safe bomb shelters.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

2 minutes ago, tmj said:

Or take membership in NATO off the table ?

T,

Bingo.

The bear says, "There's a line right over there near my lair. Don't cross it or bad things will happen."
The monkeys start building shit near the line, then they build it over over the line, and then they start playing close to the lair.
The bear comes out pissed and starts mauling.
The monkeys cry, "What? That's so unfair. What did we do?"

For some reason, here in the West, that seems to be one of those blind spots where people just don't see it.

This doesn't mean the bear is right. It just means the bear is a fucking bear. It said what it wanted and nobody believed it.

Michael

[Peter]

4 hours ago, tmj said:

Or take membership in NATO off the table ?

Do you think that is the main or sole reason, Putin invaded Ukraine? I don't, though if they had their freedom, as in, Russia backs off, I think Ukranians would vote to join NATO. The choice is have friends who will help you or constantly fear for your life? I think the long term consequences will be bad for Russia, as they should be. I think more countries will want to join NATO. Don't you? But what if the totalitarian bully bears his fangs again? Vlad is a mental vampire. 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

This might be another reason.

From Becker News.

Russian Ministry of Defense Claims It Has Evidence of U.S.-Funded ‘Bioweapons Research Labs’ in Ukraine

Russian Ministry of Defense Claims It Has Evidence of U.S.-Funded Bioweapons Research Labs in Ukraine

BECKERNEWS.COM

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"The U.S. Embassy in Ukraine has published information about its 'Biological Threat Reduction Program' in Ukraine"...

 

Quote

The Russian media outlet RIA Novosti released documents that the Ministry of Defense points to as evidence that Ukraine was undertaking research in U.S.-funded biolabs that has the capability to be used for bioweapons.

Major General Igor Konashenkov, an official representative of the Russian Ministry of Defense, provided the information to journalists. Moscow said that the documents, allegedly originating from employees of Ukrainian biological laboratories, confirmed that “components of biological weapons were being developed in Ukraine, in close proximity to Russian territory,” as reported by RIA Novosti.

 

When the US funds bioweapons research, the US is not the good guy.

The US funded bioweapons research in Wuhan. Now it looks like it has been funding bioweapons research in Ukraine.

What's worse, only the predator class in the US wants to fund bioweapons research. The vast vast vast majority of the American citizens don't want to get anywhere near that super-dangerous crap.

I'm not against fighting Russia if need be. But, for God's sake, we intend to fight Russia being led by people who fund bioweapons research on the sly?

Really?

Michael

[ThatGuy]

48 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

I'm not against fighting Russia if need be. But, for God's sake, we intend to fight Russia being led by people who fund bioweapons research on the sly?

Really?

Michael

Just like the fight against fascism in WW2 was led by people who funded Communism in the US on the sly...

[Peter]

From Business Insider: . . . A restaurant in France seeks to clear its name after fielding confusion surrounding poutine, its signature dish — fries doused with cheese curds and gravy — and Russian President Vladimir Putin, the leader who announced an invasion into Ukraine just over a week ago. La Maison de la Poutine, or The House of Poutine, tweeted on Friday that it received "calls of insults and even threats" over its namesake dish.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Works for me...

Trump Jokes U.S. Should ‘Bomb the S***’ Out of Russia and Blame China

Quote

Former President Donald Trump joked that the United States should send F-22 fighter jets with Chinese flags to “bomb the shit” out of Russia to inspire a hot war between both countries.

Speaking to top Republican National Committee (RNC) donors at a retreat in New Orleans, the former president prompted scores of laughter when he appeared to parody talking points from Fox News host Sean Hannity by suggesting that the U.S. bomb Russia and blame it on another country.

“And then we say, ‘China did it,'” Trump said, according to an unidentified source for CBS News. “Then they start fighting with each other, and we sit back and watch.”

The goofy nasty mainstream press, though, thinks he's proposing a serious plan of action.

Michael

[tmj]

7 hours ago, Peter said:

Do you think that is the main or sole reason, Putin invaded Ukraine? I don't, though if they had their freedom, as in, Russia backs off, I think Ukranians would vote to join NATO. The choice is have friends who will help you or constantly fear for your life? I think the long term consequences will be bad for Russia, as they should be. I think more countries will want to join NATO. Don't you? But what if the totalitarian bully bears his fangs again? Vlad is a mental vampire. 

Main or sole ? I don’t know , but I’m sure that whatever Putin or any Russian regime thinks about NATO weighs  heavily on their decisions. I think the importance of the who ,what, and  how of the control of the pipelines and coastlines in that region are aligned is closer to being the main reason(s). I’ve seen reference to other things about the demographics of the region that could influence longer term strategies for or about Russia. Things like population growth , that Russia may need or want to incorporate population numbers to ensure or promote a ‘healthier’ or more sustainable growth/replacement rate ?

But really , fuck Ukraine . Meaning whatever happens , or is going to happen is going to be the result of actions of government entities and bully for government actions that are net positives for the ‘people’ and fuck the governments and their actions that have negative effects on their people. 

If ‘this’ leads to Putin trying to invade Pittsburg or San Diego , then we need to fuck him up , high risk actions and all out war that kind of thing , yeah ? 

If I had my druthers , I’d love to see the ‘people’ of Keev going to work , raising their families and fully enjoying their culture in peace and any manner they see fit , the thing I’d love to see for all ‘peoples, myself included cuz I’m a people. But humans and power are not always a great mix , lots of things ‘suck’ , most of the ‘things that suck’ are the product of some humans exercising some level of power over other people , and the majority of the suck falls on the majority of the people, kind of the history and growing pains of civilization. One really good strategy is to have some way for the people , the majority of a population , to guard against being inflicted with the suck.

I learned correctly or not that we dispatched the Doughboys and millions of Europeans died because ‘they’ shot some guyed named Ferdinand, it wasn’t (isn’t ever) for the people to see those machinations as the product of different gangs of ‘guys with guns’ willing to bring hell to people to ‘get’ what they want. 

I feel bad Ukrainians lives are being disrupted and destroyed , but it isn’t Peoria , yet , and I’ll give huge fucks for Peoria , yeah ?

[anthony]

15 hours ago, Peter said:

I agree Putin will poison or shoot any "high ranking" civilian opposition. That leaves mass demonstrations with police cooperation OR the military.

It's not only the dim prospect of a coup (or who could replace Putin) in an autocratic/dictatorial country, assume some democratic nation whose slight majority strongly favor certain irrational policies taken by their govt. and president. You are in the slight minority which firmly does not. Your consent and dissent is quite irrelevant to domestic or foreign actions . When the consequences of the wrong gvt. actions hit home, you would be indiscriminately penalized (rights, freedom of action and financial costs) along with the gvt. yay-sayers, right? If you'd see that, you'd agree it's a serious injustice for each and every Russian civilian to be personally sanctioned, merely by virtue of being Russian. That tells of an insane amount of Russophobia at loose. With the sanctification of Ukraine, who perfectly fit the victimhood agenda that infatuates the West. Not that they are -not- victims, they surely are. But they too, can look to their own gvt. (and NATO's blatant ambitions) for stupid decisions or belligerent behavior in the recent past coming home to roost.

[anthony]

WATCH: French Journalist Is Censored For Reporting The Truth About The Russia-Ukraine Conflict

AVIPNADEL37659.LT.ACEMLNB.COM

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American media has molded the current narrative about the Russia-Ukraine conflict to suit the needs of the political class in both major...

 

[Peter]

What if Ukraine agreed to accept Russia’s “current terms” to be neutral on the international and local stage, to never join the EU, or to never join NATO, etc?

But later Ukraine changes its mind, when Russia collapses economically and Putin is put in the Gulag, (imagine any further punishments here) and then Ukraine joins NATO and the EU? Is changing your mind at a later date morally lying  . . . if Ukraine is being coerced with the INITIATION OF FORCE, invaded, and your citizens are being murdered as they try to flee the bombardments?

Ya know? Instead of serving his “so far make believe life sentence” in the Russian Gulag maybe Vlad could sweat it out in a Ukrainian prison. Da, eto choroso or yes, that is good in Russian. Maybe Vlad could learn to speak his new language, Ukrainian?   

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

If anybody wants to get some history of Ukraine going back centuries to the present, here is Oliver Stone's documentary "Ukraine on Fire" from 2014.

Oliver Stones Recently banned movie. "Ukraine on Fire"

WWW.BITCHUTE.COM

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Made in 2014 this documentary has been removed from most sources. Its brilliant !

Like most of Oliver Stone's political movies, this one is Russia-positive. (He interviews Putin and others in this documentary.)

However, the history part is not at all Russia-friendly. Stone bashes Russia (including Communist Russia) in that part as much as he does other countries. And he characterizes Ukraine's special skill, which it uses often, as deftness in switching sides. So the history part is both interesting and informative. (Why weren't history classes like that in school in my youth?  )

And, at least, the names you read about in the fake news media and elsewhere are not just narrative fodder. You can see the actual people and hear them talk. They are humans, not talking points with funny names in media propaganda. Wow. What a concept.  

 

The thing that most stood out to me is how the protestors in Ukraine looked like Antifa here in the US, black masks and all. And the tactics are identical in burning buildings, trying to take over a portion of the city, using small improvised arms rather than guns, etc., except in Ukraine, the violence grew where the guns eventually came out whereas here in the US, the violence fizzled (so far).

Oh, yeah... and Soros was funding a huge quantity of NGOs in Ukraine just like he funds very similar NGOs in the USA. And, remember this movie is from 2014, Biden and McCain and Kerry were right in the middle of the monkey-business.

If you can isolate in your mind Stone's pro-Russian bias, which is not all that hard in this particular movie, I highly recommend it.

One interesting part for me was how aligned the neocons were in the Bush days (and later Obama days) in color revolution techniques to the radical left these days. It almost seems like the same predator class people are involved backstage.

Oh, wait...

 

Michael

 

[ThatGuy]

On 3/5/2022 at 4:57 PM, Peter said:

Apparently, the U.S. policy is pretty much what my policy would be, and I don't think Biden is a neocon.

Biden can hardly wipe his own ass, and he is not in charge...

Pay attention to the "men behind the curtain":

Biden’s Latest Cabinet Picks and the Neocons Who Love Them

Biden’s Latest Cabinet Picks and the Neocons Who Love Them – scheerpost.com

SCHEERPOST.COM

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The incoming president’s choice for secretary of state for political affairs is among several nominees who have ties to hawkish figures.

Neocons and liberal hawks in Biden’s Team

Neocons and liberal hawks in Biden’s Team

UWIDATA.COM

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Biden's foreign policy team is virtually complete, mostly made up of former officials from Barack Obama's administration with whom Biden...

Why Bush-Era Neocons Are Getting Behind Biden

realclearpolitics.com

WWW.REALCLEARPOLITICS.COM

Why do neocons support Joe Biden? - East And West

EASTANDWEST.ME

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The American election is more than six months away and in these nervous pandemic times, it’s hard to see at the moment what could...

Why do neocons support Joe Biden?