anthony Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 19 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Tony, What a stellar video. It explains a hell of a lot of context in a follow-the-money way. I learned a lot and I may even watch it again. Apropos, I just learned today that the US buys about $20 million in oil from Russia each day. Each. Day. And countless tens of millions in energy. Granted, all that is just a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the world. But even that drop in the bucket--all this while the invasion is going on--is powerful. In short, it looks like the USA is funding Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The USA is paying for it--at the very least, making sure Putin has the money to pay for it. How's that as a frame for all the macho talk about how evil Putin is and all the fake news flying around? We're buying oil from the guy. Has there ever been a more idiotic person occupying the office of the president than Biden? And has there ever been a more despicable press in human history? Michael Michael, that despicable, I treat the msm as guilty before proven innocent. Any time there's a packaged, ready to digest narrative put out there, I suspect they are concealing the full story. Is this war only about heroes resisting aggressors, a saint against a demon? Mostly, while not entirely I'm coming to think. Civilians are suffering certainly. I could agree that Putin carries 90% the blame if I'd heard from impartial Russia experts that -also- he'd had 10% justified cause or provocation for his aggression. I get both sides of propaganda from RT and from CNN/BBC, which helps sift the facts a bit. So what is Putin doing and why? At first glance, he'd have to be insane to bring down on Russia what he must have known was coming with little to gain, or nothing. But it's clear, right or wrong, he considers the invasion an act of defensive retaliation, not belligerence. There are complexities and nuances, a history most people have little clue about, with geography and economical survival in there. Russians have long memories - like one said to me once, they still loathe the Nazis and will continue to suspect Germany and therefore, Nato's motives. Putin apparently -seems- to believe that the future of Russia is at stake. Mostly I'm ignorant of the recent events and treaties etc. and have only questions, like: would the populations of those East Ukraine regions, groups among which have had a low key conflict for many years with Kiev which has committed some civilian atrocities reportedly- majorly favor Moscow's rule over Kiev's? Or prefer separate republics? Could the West insist on a referendum? Ultimately, who decides the borders and/or nations of these disparate groups? This to me is looking more like there's an ongoing civil war into which Putin 'believes' - or rationalizes - he is sending troops in to defend the pro-Russian 'secessionists'. A grab for territory too? How much further does he want to go, beyond trying to extort a promise that the buffer zone, Ukraine, will never be a member of Nato? (it occurs to me Nato has outlived its use and become a Cold War artifact that needs to eventually be disbanded - NOT to appease Putin, mind you. Europe can make that crystal clear, any Russian expansionism to the West, hard to imagine any rationale for that right now, will be blocked by a combined EU military force, if they could build one that's effective). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 Germany Agrees to Supply Weapons to Ukraine in Historic Policy Shift "The German government has agreed to provide weapons including anti-tank missiles to Ukraine as its forces continue to battle against tens of thousands of Russian troops following last week’s invasion. "Politico reports that the government of Chancellor Olaf Scholz made the decision on Saturday, in what was a historic shift away from the decades-old policy of never sending weapons to active conflicts." Full article here... Germany Unveils Decision That Could Change Course of History Amid Russia-Ukraine Crisis CONSERVATIVEBRIEF.COM Things are changing by the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 On 3/1/2022 at 12:41 AM, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Tony, What a stellar video. It explains a hell of a lot of context in a follow-the-money way. I learned a lot and I may even watch it again. Apropos, I just learned today that the US buys about $20 million in oil from Russia each day. Each. Day. And countless tens of millions in energy. Granted, all that is just a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the world. But even that drop in the bucket--all this while the invasion is going on--is powerful. In short, it looks like the USA is funding Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The USA is paying for it--at the very least, making sure Putin has the money to pay for it. How's that as a frame for all the macho talk about how evil Putin is and all the fake news flying around? We're buying oil from the guy. Has there ever been a more idiotic person occupying the office of the president than Biden? And has there ever been a more despicable press in human history? Michael Respectfully, I'm not the first to notice how Biden immediately embarked on his revisionist 'policy'. Anything Trump did, I'll do the exact opposite! "Idiotic" and unprincipled and dangerous for the world. His reactionary lifting of Trump's sanctions on Nord Stream 2, and Germany's/EU's growing dependence on Russian gas and oil, enriching and empowering Putin - after Merkel asininely closed their nuclear power stations to buy her party Green votes - was a recipe for disaster we can see now, and Trump warned of. From Australia's Sky news (with some unofficial Trump footage). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 On 2/28/2022 at 5:41 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said: We're buying oil from the guy. Has there ever been a more idiotic person occupying the office of the president than Biden? President Biden is a dirty bleep. edited for content. UNITED STATES (EDUFINTECH) – Despite the growing contradictions between the United States and Russia, American refineries are forced to buy Russian oil and oil products in order to replace supplies from Venezuela and other OPEC countries. American refineries prefer to buy Russian fuel oil instead of heavy oil. end quote Apparently, the Russian “fuel oil” we are “forced to buy” is ready for gas production here in the U.S. Yet, Biden has stopped any increases in U.S. oil production. Ready for another slur? He is a bleep who is kissing the asses of American leftists and “greenies.” And he or his buddies are making millions while Russia is committing murder. What the hell is wrong with US? edit. I stuck some "bleeps" in my post for now. I will wait and see what Putin, oops I mean Biden says. I was half listening to Nora Odonnell on CBS and I thought she said President Putin when she meant to say Biden. Maybe my attention wandered . . . 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 5 hours ago, anthony said: (it occurs to me Nato has outlived its use and become a Cold War artifact that needs to eventually be disbanded I and the nations of NATO completely disagree with that sentiment. I suggest everyone recheck the map of the region. This invasion is "the initiation of force" and it is downright evil. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 1, 2022 Author Share Posted March 1, 2022 Here's a standard for anyone to use when they get cognitive dissonance about the Russia Ukraine mess. Start by looking at who wants what. Have you noticed that the very people who ardently clamor for defending Ukraine and making war with Russia are the same as those who perpetrated the "muh Russians" hoaxes and scams about Trump? Who did the impeachments? Who clamored for more and more government controls about the coronavirus and supported Big Pharma sight unseen by attacking--by default--those who stated doubts about the vaccines? And have you noticed that they are the loudest in claiming there was no election fraud in 2020? And the ones going all out for open borders and illegal aliens in the US? I could go on with a long list of shit these people have done, but you get the idea. So here's the question. If they were wrong about all of the above, why would anyone think they will be right about the Ukraine and Russia mess? I'm not talking about Ukraine or Russia per se here. Who is right and who is wrong in that mess? God knows. Like I said, I don't think there are any saints involved. No good guys. Everybody is wrong. But I am talking--and talking emphatically--about the people who are currently hardcore defending Ukraine and promoting war with Russia. Those people. Why take them seriously? Any of them? They lied about a gazillion things and got busted for the same. Big things that impacted the country. Now suddenly they are telling the truth? Heh... Based on their continued performance over years, the odds are they are lying and making propaganda while playing backroom embezzlement games. So anything they say needs to be doubted by default. Then verified if one wishes, but initially doubted. That, to me, is a perfect standard to use when judging media information and evaluations during this fog of war phase. (And frankly at most other times.) I use it. It's my go-to standard. There are other standards, too, but that one cuts through a lot of bullshit even though it might make you unpopular in certain quarters. Michael 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 27 minutes ago, Peter said: I and the nations of NATO completely disagree with that sentiment. I suggest everyone recheck the map of the region. This invasion is "the initiation of force" and it is downright evil. One hears great sympathy for undoubtedly brave Ukrainians, until it comes to the point of doing anything to counter that evil. Europeans won't quite go so far as to sacrifice their precious oil and gas imports. NATO sits paralyzed on the sidelines by Putin's nuclear bluff/threat. Sympathy and rhetoric are fine, actions speak loudest. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjF8uud8aX2AhWGqqQKHXfqBXsQFnoECAYQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.politico.eu%2Farticle%2Feurope-eu-oil-gas-trade-russia-budget-military-spending-ukraine-war-crisis%2F&usg=AOvVaw0hkBI8rdIC3x0fEC7hPfe6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 15 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: I'm not talking about Ukraine or Russia per se here. Who is right and who is wrong in that mess? God knows. Like I said, I don't think there are any saints involved. No good guys. Everybody is wrong. Ukraine is being murdered Michael. Russian aggression does not stop with the invasion of Ukraine. What countries are NOT part of NATO? Austria, Sarajevo, Sweden, and Finland. Who would I worry about being invaded next? Those countries. I remember a relative, about ten years ago, who went to Sweden, Finland, and Russia to visit “long time, no see” relatives. I won’t talk about the conclusions drawn other than to say there are people in Northern Russia who speak Swedish. Who would have guessed? “From “The Telegraph”: Russia warns of ‘military consequences’ if Finland and Sweden join NATO by Joe Barnes 4 days ago . . . .” From MSN . . . . “What do Finns think of Russia's invasion of Ukraine? Some 28 per cent of Finns opposed membership and 19 per cent were unsure in the first opinion poll taken since Russia's invasion of Ukraine. It was carried out over three days, including the day before the invasion.” end quotes The Finns are very leery of Russia. We need to put a stop all trade with Russia and its allies. Peter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 1 minute ago, anthony said: Europeans won't quite go so far as to sacrifice their precious oil and gas imports. I think Germany just put a hold on that incoming Russian pipeline, but our fearless leader, Joe Biden has, AS OF YET, not put a stop to Russian imports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 It will be interesting to see what Biden has to say during his "speech" tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 1, 2022 Author Share Posted March 1, 2022 3 hours ago, Peter said: Ukraine is being murdered Michael. Peter, Tell that to the people buying oil and energy from Russia. Reality check: They are the ones you look to to fight Putin. But there's a little thing called reality. Talk is one thing. Reality can or cannot be involved. Action involves reality only. And reality does not forgive being ignored. So in reality, who is the saint? Russian politicians? Ukrainian politicians? US politicians? European politicians? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 1, 2022 Author Share Posted March 1, 2022 47 minutes ago, Peter said: It will be interesting to see what Biden has to say during his "speech" tonight. Peter, I'm not being snarky and I'm not trying to insinuate anything personal. It's an epistemological thing. Do you want comforting words from Biden that will allow the world to ignore his actions? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 1, 2022 Author Share Posted March 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Peter said: Russian aggression does not stop with the invasion of Ukraine. Peter, I agree with this. But who is going to fight Russia? Oligarchs and politicians who make money from Russia? What if China backs Russia? Then the question really really really becomes who will fight Russia? Right now, Russia and China are teaming up to replace SWIFT amongst themselves. This is a direct reaction to Biden's push to cancel SWIFT for Russia. What's more, since a lot of Biden's (Deep State's) pals buy and will continue to buy shit from Russia in huge quantities, they will definitely sign up to the new system in order to pay and get paid. And it won't be too long before SWIFT and the new system interconnect. How could it not? I mean, how could dogs not bark? So what will that do except ally China to Russia for shooting wars? The saying I have heard is that China is the piggybank and Russia is the muscle. I think that is a pretty good description. I know someone who can put a stop to all this. And will, hopefully without a giant mess to clean up. But if there's a mess, he'll clean it up as he puts a stop to it. His last name starts with "T". Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmj Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 Korea, Vietnam, Iraq,Afghanistan doesn’t really feel like wars are for winning , just fighting. US politicians start and end speechifying with “ I’ll fight for you “ , one guy promised to make you tired of winning. Huh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 1, 2022 Author Share Posted March 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: I could go on with a long list of shit these people have done, but you get the idea. So here's the question. If they were wrong about all of the above, why would anyone think they will be right about the Ukraine and Russia mess? In the examples I gave, I left out Jussie Smollett. Who expects people who believed the Jussie Smollett story to be able to fight Russia and win? The answer is to wake up. Stop following those assholes and start finding other people, people who can negotiate and fight for real--starting right now. The people who promoted and believed in the Jussie Smollett story will lose everything if a nuclear war breaks out. That is if they don't blow up the world in their panic and irrationality first. Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 How Putin Explains Invading Ukraine and How This Hurts the Chinese Regime WWW.THEEPOCHTIMES.COM The apparent ‘bromance’ between Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin blossomed against the backdrop of the Beijing Winter Olympics. ... Another observer, another perspective. Maybe the CCP-Russia alliance isn't what we thought. Still learning... Putin's "de-Communization" of Russia? (and Ukraine) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 I see the Russian billionaires are playing hopscotch with their fancy yachts. Hmmm? Would it be an act of war if they sank but it wasn't our fault? Probably. Sorry, Mr. Bond. Fugetaboutit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dglgmut Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 4 hours ago, Peter said: We need to put a stop all trade with Russia and its allies. China, probably India, and Saudi Arabia? Oh no, what will those countries ever do without the American goods they exchange your dollars for? The USD is seriously in jeopardy right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 3 hours ago, Dglgmut said: China, probably India, and Saudi Arabia? Oh no, what will those countries ever do without the American goods they exchange your dollars for? The USD is seriously in jeopardy right now. Sorry Diggle, I can't fathom the butt of your sarcasm. The U.S. dollar is losing value from inflation, if that "USD" is your abbreviation for our money. I watched about 10 minutes of Biden's speech. Kamala and Pelosi, just behind President Biden, stood up to cheer so often I grew weary. India and Saudi Arabia haven't invaded and murdered anyone lately. Of China and Taiwan constitute a totalitarian dilemma. And Russia's threat four days ago against Sweden and Finland to not join NATO . . . or else. That propaganda shot of Putin talking with his staff was intriguing. The staff was sitting on the other end of a long table, nowhere near Putin. Is the dynamic that they might kill him, or that Putin might poison them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 2, 2022 Author Share Posted March 2, 2022 15 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Do you want comforting words from Biden that will allow the world to ignore his actions? And the words even got screwed. What happened last night (the content of the State of the Union address) is not the real problem. The real problem is what did not happen. Bah... Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 11 May 2014 "Do you support the Act of State Self-rule of the Donetsk People's Republic?"[31][32] Location Donetsk Oblast Ukraine Voting system Majority voting Preliminary results announced by the Central Election Commission of the Donetsk People's Republic[33][34] Yes 89.07% No 10.19% Invalid ballots 0.74% Reported voter turnout: 74.87% (Donetsk People's Republic)[citation needed] 32% (Internal Affairs Ministry of Ukraine)[35] 11 May 2014 Do you support the declaration of state independence of the Luhansk People's Republic? Location Luhansk Oblast Ukraine Results Yes 96.2% No 3.8% Reported voter turnout: 75% (Luhansk People's Republic)[68] 24% (Internal Affairs Ministry of Ukraine)[69][70] 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 2, 2022 Author Share Posted March 2, 2022 Tony, People in the West don't want to see that because in that region everyone speaks Russian as their native language. Those people are pro-Russian. (The entire Donbas region is.) Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 I asked in my ignorance about any referendum in the Donbas region for independence from Kiev. Of course, I see there were two in 2014. (Wiki) A democratic bid for self-rule - the results of which the international community dismissed as illegitimate. Reactions Domestic reaction Donetsk People's Republic – Chairman Denis Pushilin announced immediately after the referendum passed that the Ukrainian military must leave Donetsk. "All [Ukrainian] military troops on our territory after the official announcement of referendum results will be considered illegal and declared occupiers," Pushilin said. "It is necessary [for the Donetsk People's Republic] to form state bodies and military authorities as soon as possible."[59] Former President Viktor Yanukovych, who claims to be President-in-exile, acknowledged that an "absolute majority" of citizens of the Donbas region participated in the referendums and appealed to the interim Ukrainian government to withdraw its "mercenaries and troops" from the southeast of the country and to stop "waging war against [its] own people!"[85] Governor Serhiy Taruta of the Donetsk oblast called the referendum "a sham", and stated that "the Donetsk People's Republic does not exist". He went on to say that the DPR "exists in name only. They have no economic and social programs, no law enforcement".[86] International reaction Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe – Parliamentary Assembly President Ranko Krivokapić called on the separatists to cancel the referendum, saying "The idea that free and fair voting could take place in these so-called referendums is absurd. Not only are these referendums completely illegitimate in the eyes of the international community, they would be taking place amid a climate of fear, violence and lawlessness that is sure to keep many away from polling places [...] I call on the de facto authorities in Donetsk and Luhansk to call off these mockeries of a vote. All in Ukraine should instead focus on making their voices heard on 25 May, when the country elects a new president."[87] France – French President François Hollande said that the supposed referendum "was null and void" and "had no legitimacy and no legality" and said that the election that actually mattered was the May 2014 election to elect a president "for all of Ukraine."[88] Germany – Steffen Seibert, spokesman for Chancellor Angela Merkel said: "Such a referendum, against the Ukrainian constitution, does not calm things down but escalates them."[89] German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier issued a statement which said that the results could not be "taken seriously".[56] Russian Federation – Russian president Vladimir Putin asked on 7 May for the referendum to be postponed to help create the conditions for "direct, full-fledged dialogue between the Kiev authorities and representatives of southeast Ukraine".[16] On 12 May the Presidential Administration of Russia recognised the result and declared, that Kyiv would be responsible to assimilate the result with the help of OSCE. At the same time, President Putin postponed a statement to "analyze" the result.[90] Republic of Crimea - Head of the Republic of Crimea, Sergey Aksyonov recognised the right of citizens to express their will at referendums. He recognises the results of the elections and has said that the Republic of Crimea will move to establish relations with the two breakaway republics.[91] United Kingdom – British Foreign Secretary William Hague said: "These votes, these attempts at referendums have zero credibility in the eyes of the world. They are illegal by anybody's standards, they don't meet any standard, not a single standard of objectivity, transparency, fairness or being properly conducted .... The important thing is that the Ukrainian elections go ahead on the 25th of May."[92] United States – Secretary of State John Kerry met with Catherine Ashton, the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, to discuss the crisis. Kerry stated afterward: "We flatly reject this illegal effort to further divide Ukraine. Its pursuit will create even more problems in the effort to try to de-escalate the situation. This is really the Crimea playbook all over again, and no civilized nation is going to recognize the results of such a bogus effort."[93] Sweden – Foreign Minister Carl Bildt called the results "fake results from a fake referendum" and added that "Figures from fake referendums in Eastern Ukraine likely to be fake. No way of even knowing turnout."[56][94] Belarus – President Alexander Lukashenko declared that the Donbas status referendums "don't have any significance from a legal point of view," and promised not to allow a similar scenario in his own country. However, he refused to describe the pro-Russian rebels as "separatists" and expressed his support for the negotiations. Lukashenko also warned that any attempts to deploy foreign troops to Belarus would result in war, "even if this is Putin".[95] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Tony, People in the West don't want to see that because in that region everyone speaks Russian as their native language. Those people are pro-Russian. (The entire Donbas region is.) Michael Yes, MSK. If my memory needed jogging about those events and the (civil?) war preceding Putin's invasion I can bet many believers in this one-sided MSM narrative of evil aggressor and innocent victims, don't remember either. And probably won't be apprised of the recent history on CNN... That's not me at all trying to justify Putin, it's to point out that things were not as story-tale, cut-and-dried as they think. There was provocation on both sides. On the face of it: The "separatists" of Donbas seem to have wanted to legally claim their self-determination, under duress from the Ukraine Govt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 2, 2022 Author Share Posted March 2, 2022 3 hours ago, anthony said: Yes, MSK. If my memory needed jogging about those events and the (civil?) war preceding Putin's invasion I can bet many believers in this one-sided MSM narrative of evil aggressor and innocent victims, don't remember either. Tony, Now let's not forget this. A big part of this issue is about Ukraine joining or not joining NATO. But the truth is, NATO should have been disbanded once it had served its purpose. But it wasn't. And now it's the world biggest boondoggle--a lethal toxic boondoggle at that. Do you know why? Because there are about one trillion dollars in arms purchases from NATO countries. A year. That's a lot of money so it needs some kind of happy face painted on it. That means for NATO to have continued relevance--perceived relevance that is, there needs to be a perceived threat from Russia. Does that alter the frame? Hmmmm?... To me it throws the nonstop goading of Russia by the US predator warmongers over years in a different light. That's why they keep trying to get Ukraine into NATO. It's not fear of Russia that's behind what the people at the top are doing. It's moolah. Gobs and gobs and gobs of moolah. Imagine their joy if Ukraine can be turned into another endless war for profit. They would go dance in the streets. Why? Because they could double-dip. Arms to NATO countries. Arms to the endless war. Party-time... Wanna see this current Russia Ukraine situation resolved instantly? Let the Donbas region separate for real since the people there are so incompatible with the people in the rest of Ukraine. But that won't happen. Ever. Too much money involved. And the West-friendly part of Ukraine is fueled by a breathtaking amount of corruption--a trough where countless politicians from Western countries go to slop (including the Clinton machine and the Bidens). Not that oligarchs coming from Russia are any better. But that's a different game. Not only are there two incompatible parts of Ukraine, there are two different embezzlement channels, one serving Western bad guys and one serving Russian bad guys. As the saying goes, war is a racket. Michael 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now