Frank's Niece!

[Cathy]

Cathy,

What king of cancer did your dad have? You probably said before and I forgot.

His having to go to St. Louis is indicative of how things were with treatment at that time. Hard to get . Few places had facilities. Also, treatment was often extremely debilitating of energy.

My "dad" (my mother's second husband, but I never met my biological father) was a doctor. An orthopedic surgeon not a cancer specialist. He went to St. Louis maybe a couple times a month to do some clinical work there. St. Louis and Chicago were "state of the art" medical centers for the MidWest at that time.

--

'Nother subject: Aunt Agnes. You said in #369 that she went everywhere visiting family. Did she go out-of-state also, or just the local family? Did she ever get to New York?

Ellen

He had throat cancer. Right after he was diagnosed, he started treatment right away. I could tell it scared him to death. Of course my step mother punished us and said we gave him cancer and we are the ones who were killing him. It was my sister who remembered that. Long ordeal for us back then. But it wasn't the cancer that killed him, he caught phamonia (sp?). Aunt Agnes did travel out of state. MiMi was her daughter and would take trips to see Uncle Frank. Aunt Bess lived in Dearborn Michigan and Aunt Agnes would go visit them as often as us. I believed she traveled by train or flew places. When she was with us she didn't have a car, because we would walk uptown with her. her last husband had died, his name was Johnston, and left her pretty well to do because she lived in Shaker Heights which is pretty upscale part of Cleveland. I am reading some of Ayn Rand things, and have been trying to find my way around this site. Trying to find out anything I can about them later in their lives. I am also looking for my step mother's son...but he would probably be 75 by now...I better find him fast! ~Cathy~ p.s. my sister is coming around...she said tonight she will finish reading these posts. You wouldn't believe the things she is remembering...I tried telling her it will all come back in floods. She remembered that I tied a sheet to my bed to climb down from my upstairs window so we could run away. The sheet dangled down to the kitchen window below my window where my dad and step mother were at the table eating (this was through the time of starvation) I was halfway down that sheet when I heard my dad and step mother racing up the steps. I shimmied back up that sheet, threw it under my bed and jumped in bed and threw the covers over me. My dad pulled them covers back and said...are you trying to kill yourself! Last night me and Conny Laughed about that, But like I told her, its funny now, but back then we weren't laughing. Conny said we were eleven when that happened.

[Neil Parille]

Over at Ayn Rand Contra Human Nature, Gordon Burkowski posted the following anecdote which I think people will find interesting.

In April 1965, I met Frank O’Connor and Ayn Rand. I was with three other Objectivists from Toronto; we had all come to New York to attend a Joan Mitchell Blumenthal art exhibit which was followed by an Allan Blumenthal piano concert. His encore was: “Jesu Joy of Man’s Desiring”.

The meeting with Rand and O’Connor lasted all of four minutes: Florence Hirschfeld (Nathaniel Branden’s sister) thought Ayn might be interested in us because one of our party was a female engineer named Dagny.

All this happened years before The Break between Rand and the Brandens; and at a time when The Affair wasn’t known or even conceivable. Barbara Branden’s biography was 20 years in the future.

At the time, I quite literally regarded Rand as the most important person on earth. So Frank O’Connor came as a shock. He certainly knew how to wear a tuxedo: he could have made a fortune if he’d worked as a male model rather than an actor. But to this day, 48 years later, I have never encountered a male with a more recessive personality. He presented like an Anglican cleric whose deepest passion was for his rose bushes. I’m not surprised that he later worked as a flower arranger.

All the way back to Toronto, I kept saying to myself: “Ayn Rand is married to a guy who looks eager to please! How in hell can Ayn Rand be married to someone who is eager to please?”

After decades of hard-won experience, it’s now clear to me that O’Connor was Rand’s ideal mate – but not for any of the reasons she would have given. The fact that she could convince herself that this guy was Francisco d’Anconia tells you everything you need to know about her limitless capacity for rationalization. Objectivists out there who are lashing themselves because their partner isn’t a John Galt or a Dagny Taggart should keep that firmly in mind.

-Neil Parille

[Cathy]

Over at Ayn Rand Contra Human Nature, Gordon Burkowski posted the following anecdote which I think people will find interesting.

In April 1965, I met Frank O’Connor and Ayn Rand. I was with three other Objectivists from Toronto; we had all come to New York to attend a Joan Mitchell Blumenthal art exhibit which was followed by an Allan Blumenthal piano concert. His encore was: “Jesu Joy of Man’s Desiring”.

The meeting with Rand and O’Connor lasted all of four minutes: Florence Hirschfeld (Nathaniel Branden’s sister) thought Ayn might be interested in us because one of our party was a female engineer named Dagny.

All this happened years before The Break between Rand and the Brandens; and at a time when The Affair wasn’t known or even conceivable. Barbara Branden’s biography was 20 years in the future.

At the time, I quite literally regarded Rand as the most important person on earth. So Frank O’Connor came as a shock. He certainly knew how to wear a tuxedo: he could have made a fortune if he’d worked as a male model rather than an actor. But to this day, 48 years later, I have never encountered a male with a more recessive personality. He presented like an Anglican cleric whose deepest passion was for his rose bushes. I’m not surprised that he later worked as a flower arranger.

All the way back to Toronto, I kept saying to myself: “Ayn Rand is married to a guy who looks eager to please! How in hell can Ayn Rand be married to someone who is eager to please?”

After decades of hard-won experience, it’s now clear to me that O’Connor was Rand’s ideal mate – but not for any of the reasons she would have given. The fact that she could convince herself that this guy was Francisco d’Anconia tells you everything you need to know about her limitless capacity for rationalization. Objectivists out there who are lashing themselves because their partner isn’t a John Galt or a Dagny Taggart should keep that firmly in mind.

-Neil Parille

This made me cry ~Cathy~

[Marc]

Would Cathy , Ellen , anyone have an idea which tapes I could find information on that would be helpful for Cathy ?

The two Mimi Sutton ones and anything else ?

I do have in my collection all of Anne Hellers research . That included hundreds of cassettes and also Barbara Brandens research which had hundreds as well.

Thanks for any help here from anyone

[Ellen Stuttle]

Marc,

I'll put together a list, in relative importance, over the next couple days.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

[Agnes'] last husband had died, his name was Johnston, and left her pretty well to do because she lived in Shaker Heights which is pretty upscale part of Cleveland.

OK, that clears up a discrepancy I wondered about.

Heller says that Ayn gave Marna money for going back to highschool in 1946 when Papurt had died and left Agnes and the two younger girls destitute (Mimi was by then married to Sutton), yet I remembered you saying somewhere that Agnes had money and could have taken care of Frank if he'd left Ayn. You've now explained how Agnes re-got money. Another marriage.

Her "last husband" has a sound of more than two. Were there more than two? Or just Papurt and Johnston?

Was Johnston Jewish also? The name doesn't sound Jewish.

Any idea of how well or not Agnes' children got along with Johnston? Did you meet him yourself?

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

Oh, and another question:

Did Agnes and Johnston have any children?

By the time she married him, she'd have been headed toward menopause, since she had to have been born by 2001 latest (given the birth order of your father's siblings and his birth date), and the earliest she would have married Johnston is 1947, if Heller's right about Agnes' being destitute in 1946. But if she married Johnston in the late '40s, she might have still been able to have a child.

And, while I'm at it, do you happen to know if Johnston had children of his own?

Ellen

[Marc]

Marc,

I'll put together a list, in relative importance, over the next couple days.

Ellen

Amazing , thanks so much .

Also anything that you could find from Anne Hellers research as well.

[Ellen Stuttle]

http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&andor_type=and&sid=76cd562c1d8b87c4d2c26c2db6f0d829&search_date_start=August%201,%202011&search_date_end=March%2019,%202013&search_app_filters[forums][sortKey]=date&search_content=content&search_app_filters[forums][noPreview]=0&search_app_filters[forums][pCount]=&search_app_filters[forums][pViews]=&search_app_filters[forums][sortKey]=date&search_app_filters[forums][sortDir]=0&search_term=Frank+Ayn&search_app=forums&st=25

Cathy said she's starting to try to find other stuff in the OL archives.

The URL is to the second page of a search for Frank Ayn from August 1, 2011 to March 16, 2013.

Posts pertaining to Ayn and Frank later than that are all from this thread.

The search feature isn't working well, and posts about other Franks besides Ayn's came up.

Later I'll find threads where the Frank is the right Frank.

Ellen

[Marc]

Wow ! How great are you !!!!!!!! Thanks ,

[Jerry Biggers]

[Agnes'] last husband had died, his name was Johnston, and left her pretty well to do because she lived in Shaker Heights which is pretty upscale part of Cleveland.

OK, that clears up a discrepancy I wondered about.

Heller says that Ayn gave Marna money for going back to highschool in 1946 when Papurt had died and left Agnes and the two younger girls destitute (Mimi was by then married to Sutton), yet I remembered you saying somewhere that Agnes had money and could have taken care of Frank if he'd left Ayn. You've now explained how Agnes re-got money. Another marriage.

Her "last husband" has a sound of more than two. Were there more than two? Or just Papurt and Johnston?

Was Johnston Jewish also? The name doesn't sound Jewish.

Any idea of how well or not Agnes' children got along with Johnston? Did you meet him yourself?

Ellen

Ellen,

A couple of questions on this post. Where it starts, "Heller says,..." is that a reference to Heller's book on Rand? If it is, could you cite the page number, please.

Or, is it from a direct communication to Anne Heller from you, or from her response to you?

The reference to the "two girls destitute," this sounds too early (1946?) to be referring to Conny and Cathy, so who are the two girls?

Finally, I am always amazed at the detail that you cite about what was going on inside Rand's Inner Circle, so how do you know these things? Were you present at the Inner Circle meetings, or were you a member of Rand's Inner Circle? Or are you quoting what was said to you later by Inner Circle members?.

[KacyRay]

Is there an actual record of who Rand's inner circle actually consisted of? A list of names?

We all know "The Collective" existed. We all know who some of the members were. Does anyone know who all of them were?

[Ellen Stuttle]

Kacy,

The original circle:

BB and NB.

I think Peikoff met Rand a few times before Rand's move to NYC in '51.

Joan Mitchell, Barbara's longtime friend and college roommate.

Allan Blumenthal, NB's cousin.

NB's sister Elayne, who was living in New York.

His other two sisters, Florence and Reva, and their husbands, sometimes visited.

Joan brought in Alan Greenspan. She was married to him briefly, but the marriage was annulled. After a bit - judging from the date on the wedding photo in Barbara's book, in 1957 - she married Allan Blumenthal. She's subsequently gone by the name Joan Mitchell Blumenthal.

Elayne married a stock broker named Harry Kalberman. There's a photo of the wedding, dated April 1955, in Heller's book.

Joan Mitchell also brought in Mary Ann Rukavina, later Sures, an art student whom I think she met at the Art Student's League or maybe at NYUniversity. Mary Ann became good friends with Leonard Peikoff.

The 1955 photo of Elayne and Harry's wedding seems to be before Mary Ann was part of the group. At any rate she isn't in the photo.

Reva Fox, her husband Sholey Fox, and Mary Ann are in the photo of Joan and Allan's wedding. Allan had started wearing a hair piece between the two photos. They all look so young!

Florence and her husband aren't in either photo.

Edith Efron I suppose qualified as part of "the Collective" for a time. She isn't in either photo.*

There also developed what was called "the Junior Collective," the members of which were multiple and varying.

Ellen

Add: * Edith Efron's time as part of the group began after Atlas had been published (pg. 295, Heller). An official announcement of its end appeared in the June 1967 The Objectivist.

[Ellen Stuttle]

Jerry,

The bit about Ayn's providing financial help to Marna and the description are in one of my earlier posts on the thread. Search.

EDIT: The full passage is re-quoted in post #396 below.

Much of what I know about the Collective is in the biographies. Some is from knowing the people. I think it's pretty clear in what I say what parts are in writing and what parts are from direct observation.

If you mean something like Leonard Peikoff's naivety, I bet there are dozens of women who had exchanges with him back then who would tell you the same thing. It was a subject of amusement.

If you mean about when they all moved in together - i.e., when NB and BB, Ayn and Frank, and Peikoff got apartments in the same building - 1963 - read Heller.

Regarding who was and who wasn't in near-daily contact with Ayn pre-break (Leonard wasn't), read Barbara's and Nathaniel's respective books.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

What I signed on to comment about was the horrors of the early post-revolution years in Russia.

I'd been going through the endnotes to Heller collecting interview dates.

That time period in Russia has to have been one of the nadirs of wretchedness humans have gone through, with the scarcities and the Russian winters along with the political circumstances.

Each time I read about what Ayn experienced in Russia, I feel for her again in regard to the enormous importance to her of the art and movies which she thought, and maybe accurately, saved her life.

I can understand where she came from about art, much as I think of it as an askew place.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

On the facing page to the Elayne/Harry wedding photo in Heller's book is a photo of Ayn at the National Book Awards ceremony in 1958, the year Cathy was born. Atlas had been nominated for an award in fiction.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

Cathy,

In Heller's endnotes, on pg. 441, there are references to newspaper obituaries of your O'Connor grandparents:

"Mrs. O'Connor Dies Today," Lorain [Ohio] Times Herald, July 19, 1911, p. 1.

[....]

"Pioneer Lorain Steelman Dies," obituary of Dennis O'Connor, FO's father, Lorain [Ohio] Journal, December 22, 1938, p. 15.

Ellen

[Cathy]

Cathy,

In Heller's endnotes, on pg. 441, there are references to newspaper obituaries of your O'Connor grandparents:

"Mrs. O'Connor Dies Today," Lorain [Ohio] Times Herald, July 19, 1911, p. 1.

[....]

"Pioneer Lorain Steelman Dies," obituary of Dennis O'Connor, FO's father, Lorain [Ohio] Journal, December 22, 1938, p. 15.

Ellen

Ellen, Aunt Agnes told me that her mother suffered for weeks before she died...she also was the glue that held the family together. She said her father was so lost after her death...that's why the kids basically took care of themselves, they feed themselves got themselves ready for school. The older ones help with the younger ones...I guess Dennis was a mess. When the state stepped in and took the kids, Dennis married a lady which he hardly knew...her name was Mary (like my grandma's name) and her last name was O'Connor also lol. Her prior husband was James. But that how my grandfather got his children back. She came with four children...that's when everything went crazy at my grandfathers house. Uncle Joe and uncle Nick ran off, then when Uncle Frank was old enough he ran off to. It left Aunt Agnes, Aunt Margret, My dad and Aunt Bess with the wicked step mother. Aunt Agnes's 2nd husband was John. They were not married many years and I am almost positive he died not long after the marriage. She only had two husbands. all her children where by Papurt. I don't know if the 2nd husband had children. I never met him that I can remember. I believe she told me she was like her dad (my grandfather) she got married right away. MiMi was already grown, and Dockey may have been on her way out, but she had two other children to take care of, and back then that's the way women did it...they married. sad... ~Cathy~ p.s. My real grandmother Mary was call Minnie.

[Neil Parille]

Trains, by Al Stewart

[Cathy]

Trains, by Al Stewart

How beautiful and so sad. ~Cathy~

[Ellen Stuttle]

Further pursuant to Jerry's questions in post #386, here's the part I quoted earlier about the plight of Agnes and her two younger daughters after Papurt's death - a plight which subsequent material from Cathy informs us was remedied by Agnes' re-marrying.

[....]

The only other reference to the abortion is in a passage pertaining to Ayn's and Frank's years in California on the ranch (1944-1951). I'll quote a two-paragraph part, since this also has material about Ayn's relationship with Marna.

pg. 181 [Heller]

O'Connor's niece Mimi Papurt, now married and called Mimi Sutton, hadn't made her way to California. But she and Rand wrote letters to each other. Mimi's father, A. M. Papurt, the man who had once loaned the O'Connor's money for an abortion, had died a few years earlier, leaving the young woman's mother and two younger sisters impoverished--so much so that the elder of the two, Marna, had quit high school to help support them. Mimi had been badgering Marna to finish school, and in the spring of 1946 she asked Rand for help in bringing Marna to Boston, where Mimi and her husband lived, to earn her highschool diploma. She and Frank agreed to pay fifty dollars a month, plus the cost of transportation from Ohio, plus school clothes.

The arrangement led to a misunderstanding. Marna had dropped out during the second semester of her junior year. To graduate, she had to complete three semesters. Rand was under the impression that the girl was supposed to graduate in one year. Marna re-entered school in April and finished her junior year in June. But she was forced to leave school again the following April, because Rand stopped sending money. The writer, who didn't understand, or wouldn't make allowances for, the traditional school-year calendar, was furious with Marna. "She said, 'You told me you'd finish,'" the niece recalled. Marna found a job with a traveling magician, whom she married, and eventually earned an equivalency diploma and attended college. But a strain developed on both sides.

[The strain didn't last long, as is said in a later passage.]

The references for the passage are letters from AR to Mimi, and Heller's June 21, 2004, interview of Marna.

Ellen

Jerry,

Also: Cathy and Conny were Agnes' nieces, not her children. The name of Agnes' youngest was (or is, not sure if she's still alive) Connie. Different spelling from Cathy's sister's name.

Ellen

[ginny]

Cathy, you could try emailing Barbara Branden at BBranden1@aol.com. I'm not sure if it's just a drop for her webmaster, but you have nothing to lose by trying. She'd have answers to some of your questions.

[Brant Gaede]

Cathy, you could try emailing Barbara Branden at BBranden1@aol.com. I'm not sure if it's just a drop for her webmaster, but you have nothing to lose by trying. She'd have answers to some of your questions.

Unlikely to get a reply. I've no sense Barbara's been Internet active in the last year or two.

--Brant

[Cathy]

Cathy, you could try emailing Barbara Branden at BBranden1@aol.com. I'm not sure if it's just a drop for her webmaster, but you have nothing to lose by trying. She'd have answers to some of your questions.

Thank you so much Ginny, yes I would like to talk to her... and apologize to her. I hope she can. Thx ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Cathy, you could try emailing Barbara Branden at BBranden1@aol.com. I'm not sure if it's just a drop for her webmaster, but you have nothing to lose by trying. She'd have answers to some of your questions.

Unlikely to get a reply. I've no sense Barbara's been Internet active in the last year or two.

--Brant

Ill keep that in mind, thank you Brant. It hasn't came yet...waiting as patiently as possible. ~Cathy~