Frank's Niece!

[Cathy]

MSK, Isn't it time to remove the question mark from the topic title here?

Let's not rush into things. Wait until the interrogation team gets back from Indiana.

--Brant

Bring em on! LOL!

[caroljane]

MSK, Isn't it time to remove the question mark from the topic title here?

Carol,

That's a great suggestion.

Done.

Michael

Thank you dear bro. Maybe if you have time you could correct my topic typo to Fox North. I could pretend it really means "No Ezra! Republican Toady!" but I am too well known as a touch typist to get away with it.

Carol

83 words a minute

[Brant Gaede]

MSK, Isn't it time to remove the question mark from the topic title here?

Carol,

That's a great suggestion.

Done.

Michael

Thank you dear bro. Maybe if you have time you could correct my topic typo to Fox North. I could pretend it really means "No Ezra! Republican Toady!" but I am too well known as a touch typist to get away with it.

Carol

83 words a minute

My Father could do +85.

My step-Mother +100

Nayah, nayah!

--Brant

15, maybe

[Cathy]

Ellen, from what I remember MiMi was old enough to be my mother. She was the oldest child of Aunt Agnes and in 1934, MiMi would have been a very young child.

Uh-uh, not a very young child. She would have been 15 or 16 in December 1934, depending on when in the year her birthday was.

Barbara and Marna, as cited by Heller, agree in saying that Mimi was 20 when she was staying with Ayn and Frank in the summer of 1939.

Depending on whether she'd already had her birthday by summer of that year or whether she turned 21 later that year, she was born in 1918 or 1919.

She was old enough to be my mother. (My mother was born in March, 1919.)

If my grandfather died Dec 21, then what I am remembering about him being buried on Christmas eve is correct!! I am remembering right!!!! So if you read back, the only thing I have been wrong about...which was hardly wrong...was Ellen. I thought she was a grand daughter instead of a niece. I ve been right about everything else...why is it so hard for people to believe me about the visits???

The problem remains about visits to your father's house between late 66 and 69, when could they have happened?

The thing is that a whole lot is known about what Rand was doing during that time frame. I'm still trying to dig up some unaccounted-for time slots. I'm expecting one or two plausible times to turn up. (I doubt there'd have been as many as three, but, as you say, there might have been an occasion when she and Frank were at your father's house more than once during a particular trip).

One thing I wonder is if there might have been another funeral in those years. For instance, Margaret, although you don't recall anything about her.

>Did you find out what MiMi called her, was it Aunt Alice?

/>

I haven't seen any reference to what Mimi called her.

>You have been very helpful for me Ellen, I hope I have help in some ways to ~Cathy~

You are certainly giving me an interesting puzzle. Plus, I'm really curious to learn more about Frank's family. I liked Frank - as did everyone else I've ever heard say.

-

A couple further questions (the chronology you gave earlier was helpful to give me a clear idea of when you were where).

Did your step-mother have children of her own?

Also, what was her "thing"? Was she a religious fanatic, punishing you and your sister for supposed sins? Or was it just personal nastiness?

Ellen

[/quoteEllen...do you think all of these visits happened at my mom's, some when they were together and I am confused with visits at my dads with my step-mother? All of Aunt Agnes's stories happened at my dad's, I know that, could I have gotten the visits and the stories together confused? My sister suggested that to me, she said she only remembers...so far...of Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank at my moms. She said, that it could have been at my dad's but so far she doesn't remember that. I hope you are understanding what I am saying. But I remember them drawing on our backs. I am more confused than ever. Or did they make one trip in with my Aunt Agnes, and the rest of the times were at my mom's. Do you know when the last time they visited with aunt Agnes? Your a genius Ellen, yes my step mother did have children. Her son was an Alcoholic (took after his mother) and she had a daughter. I don't remember what her daughter's last name was, but I do know the son's last name. I will see if Conny will get his number for me. When My step-mother died, they said she had a tumor the size of a baseball on here brain, that and the alcoholism made her mentally ill and that's why we were treated the way we were. I wish I knew about Margate, she is the only one I don't remember anything about. Could they have came to my dad's in 66/67? I remember them at my dad's...I am firm on that. I will get a hold of my step mother's son as soon as I can...but if they didn't tell him about Ayn Rand, then what? But if they did tell him, he may know why we weren't told. Conny started reading on this site today, she only went to page 5 and stopped. ..but she's coming around. Hopefully by reading this will bring back some memories,and she has remember some...most about Aunt Agnes, but that's how my memory started to. I'm just happy she didn't shut the door on all this, because I thought she was, and if you knew my sister, that door would have stayed shut and locked forever. Thank you Ellen

[caroljane]

MSK, Isn't it time to remove the question mark from the topic title here?

That's a great suggestion.

Done.

Michael

Thank you dear bro. Maybe if you have time you could correct my topic typo to Fox North. I could pretend it really means "No Ezra! Republican Toady!" but I am too well known as a touch typist to get away with it.

Carol

83 words a minute

My Father could do +85.

My step-Mother +100

Nayah, nayah!

--Brant

15, maybe

Brant, stop straining your eyes and forefingers, touchtyping is incredibly easy to learn, just a manual and a keyboard. It is also a soothing repetitive activity that puts you in a nice calm zone. I learned at age 12 from an old book of my mother's and I practiced at school on my desk during Latin class, no keyboard of course just the fingerwork.

[Cathy]

MSK, Isn't it time to remove the question mark from the topic title here?

Carol,

That's a great suggestion.

Done.

Thank you Michael ~Cathy~

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

MSK, Isn't it time to remove the question mark from the topic title here?

That's a great suggestion.

Done.

Michael

Thank you dear bro. Maybe if you have time you could correct my topic typo to Fox North. I could pretend it really means "No Ezra! Republican Toady!" but I am too well known as a touch typist to get away with it.

Carol

83 words a minute

My Father could do +85.

My step-Mother +100

Nayah, nayah!

--Brant

15, maybe

Brant, stop straining your eyes and forefingers, touchtyping is incredibly easy to learn, just a manual and a keyboard. It is also a soothing repetitive activity that puts you in a nice calm zone. I learned at age 12 from an old book of my mother's and I practiced at school on my desk during Latin class, no keyboard of course just the fingerwork.

I played basketball with no basketball. I practiced nudity with my clothes on. Flying without an airplane.

--Brant

you can't top me!

[caroljane]

MSK, Isn't it time to remove the question mark from the topic title here?

That's a great suggestion.

Done.

Michael

Thank you dear bro. Maybe if you have time you could correct my topic typo to Fox North. I could pretend it really means "No Ezra! Republican Toady!" but I am too well known as a touch typist to get away with it.

Carol

83 words a minute

My Father could do +85.

My step-Mother +100

Nayah, nayah!

--Brant

15, maybe

Brant, stop straining your eyes and forefingers, touchtyping is incredibly easy to learn, just a manual and a keyboard. It is also a soothing repetitive activity that puts you in a nice calm zone. I learned at age 12 from an old book of my mother's and I practiced at school on my desk during Latin class, no keyboard of course just the fingerwork.

I played basketball with no basketball. I practiced nudity with my clothes on. Flying without an airplane.

--Brant

you can't top me!

No I can't, that would be Adam's specialty.

[Cathy]

MSK, Isn't it time to remove the question mark from the topic title here?

That's a great suggestion.

Done.

Michael

Thank you dear bro. Maybe if you have time you could correct my topic typo to Fox North. I could pretend it really means "No Ezra! Republican Toady!" but I am too well known as a touch typist to get away with it.

Carol

83 words a minute

My Father could do +85.

My step-Mother +100

Nayah, nayah!

--Brant

15, maybe

Brant, stop straining your eyes and forefingers, touchtyping is incredibly easy to learn, just a manual and a keyboard. It is also a soothing repetitive activity that puts you in a nice calm zone. I learned at age 12 from an old book of my mother's and I practiced at school on my desk during Latin class, no keyboard of course just the fingerwork.

I played basketball with no basketball. I practiced nudity with my clothes on. Flying without an airplane.

--Brant

you can't top me!

for some reason...I bet that's true!

[caroljane]

Cathy, no need to bet, it is true. We have all tried but he is the Unsinkable Gaedey Brant.

[Cathy]

Cathy, no need to bet, it is true. We have all tried but he is the Unsinkable Gaedey Brant.

LOL!

[Brant Gaede]

Cathy, no need to bet, it is true. We have all tried but he is the Unsinkable Gaedey Brant.

LOL!

Actually I was topped fairly recently, but aside from that I put it all in my short term memory so I can't reference it.

--Brant

no dummy

[Marc]

Michael,

I noticed a recent post - here - from Marc, who I think is the person who bought Barbara's research archives.

I recall his saying early in OL history that he was planning to make copies of the interview tapes for preservation purposes, the tapes being old and brittle.

Do you know if he ever did that?

I suppose you can guess my drift. I'm wondering if there are copies in easily copyable form of the two interviews with Mimi Sutton. I figure there's lots on those tapes which didn't find its way into the biographies.

Ellen

Ellen , thanks for the intro !

I did buy Barbaras archives , and since then I have expanded the archives in a huge way . I am working very hard on this project but for the last few years I have been focusing on simply buying , and collecting research on Rand and the history of Objectivism .

I do have some upcoming news but I am not able to expand on the details right now .

As for Cathy ........ I welcome you to the board , I have been reading this thread with great interest and I hope that you can get any and all of the answers that you need here and everywhere . I will do everything that I can to provide you with what you would like to see or hear .Cathy , I do have a tremendous amount of research which includes around 500 cassettes or so of interviews of Rand and people who knew Rand . I do have the Mimi Sutton tapes too .

Sad to report , I have not yet converted the tapes but I am getting everything in a great archived system and I will report more here very soon .

Marc

[Cathy]

Michael,

I noticed a recent post - here - from Marc, who I think is the person who bought Barbara's research archives.

I recall his saying early in OL history that he was planning to make copies of the interview tapes for preservation purposes, the tapes being old and brittle.

Do you know if he ever did that?

I suppose you can guess my drift. I'm wondering if there are copies in easily copyable form of the two interviews with Mimi Sutton. I figure there's lots on those tapes which didn't find its way into the biographies.

Ellen

Ellen , thanks for the intro !

I did buy Barbaras archives , and since then I have expanded the archives in a huge way . I am working very hard on this project but for the last few years I have been focusing on simply buying , and collecting research on Rand and the history of Objectivism .

I do have some upcoming news but I am not able to expand on the details right now .

As for Cathy ........ I welcome you to the board , I have been reading this thread with great interest and I hope that you can get any and all of the answers that you need here and everywhere . I will do everything that I can to provide you with what you would like to see or hear .Cathy , I do have a tremendous amount of research which includes around 500 cassettes or so of interviews of Rand and people who knew Rand . I do have the Mimi Sutton tapes too .

Sad to report , I have not yet converted the tapes but I am getting everything in a great archived system and I will report more here very soon .

Marc

Thank you Marc

[Ellen Stuttle]

Ellen...do you think all of these visits happened at my mom's, some when they were together and I am confused with visits at my dads with my step-mother? All of Aunt Agnes's stories happened at my dad's, I know that, could I have gotten the visits and the stories together confused? My sister suggested that to me, she said she only remembers...so far...of Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank at my moms. She said, that it could have been at my dad's but so far she doesn't remember that. I hope you are understanding what I am saying. I remember them drawing on our backs. I am more confused than ever. Or did they make one trip in with my Aunt Agnes, and the rest of the times were at my mom's. Do you know when the last time they visited with aunt Agnes?

I don't know when they last saw Agnes.

I wonder if the visits might all have been at your mom's, maybe with one to your dad's.

Late '66 - spring '67 I think is the least likely time for them to have visited. That's the period when Rand was writing her most difficult/intense-effort piece except for Galt's Speech, her "Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology." She's said to have been ferociously into concentration when she was writing, especially something that difficult. I can easily imagine her telling you a Russian prayer when you were a child, but the idea of her being dragged off on a three (at least) day trip while she was into writing doesn't compute. Unless, as I say, it was a funeral or some other kind of crisis event.

Hm, I just had a thought. Did Agnes or your dad have some kind of illness episode which looked like it might be fatal?

Also, how close was Frank to your dad? (Sounds like he was pretty close to Agnes.)

The time frame which seems to me most plausible in the second half of the '60s is summer or fall of '67, when she was finished the big writing project and before she started into the brooding over her relationship with Nathaniel and the stretch which culminated in the break.

Your step-mother does sound like a mess.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

Addendum: Unless they flew.

I've been thinking in terms of car, bus, or train.

I've never heard tell of Rand flying again after the excursion to the West Coast (the Lewis and Clark, etc.) trip in fall '63, but she was reported to enjoy the flight despite her pre-flight fear of flying.

And come to think of it...

In those days there was a plane, on Southwest Airlines, I think, that shuttled between NYC and, of all places, Peoria, Illinois, my home town. It made two intermediary stops. One of those was Cleveland. The other was Springfield, Ill.

CORRECTIONS: Ozark Airlines, and the second stop headed from NYC was Champaign-Urbana, giving access to the University of Illinois.

See a further correction in #370. The flight continued to Denver.

I took that plane a number of times myself when I was living in NYC. It was a convenient and pleasant flight, not crowded.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

The plane described above went from NYC to Peoria, then back, twice a day, morning and afternoon.

If one was only going as far as Cleveland, one could go in the afternoon, have a leisurely evening, and come back the next morning, thus doing the jaunt with a nice block of time for a visit in less than twenty-four hours.

This isn't to say that Ayn and Frank ever took that plane, but hypothetically it would have made a significant dent in the time needed for a trip to Ohio.

Ellen

[Cathy]

The plane described above went from NYC to Peoria, then back, twice a day, morning and afternoon.

If one was only going as far as Cleveland, one could go in the afternoon, have a leisurely evening, and come back the next morning, thus doing the jaunt with a nice block of time for a visit in less than twenty-four hours.

This isn't to say that Ayn and Frank ever took that plane, but hypothetically it would have made a significant dent in the time needed for a trip to Ohio.

Ellen

Ellen, the only thing that I remember happening was my dad was diagnosed with cancer and that would have been in 67/68. I cant remember any funerals. I am going to try and find my step mother's son, and hopefully more memories will come back. Since you have brought up her children, I do remember him trying to help us, he argued with his mother on how she was treating us, and they didn't speak for a while. Its funny looking back, because My step-mother's children never left their children with her. Why was it ok for everyone that we were? When my step mother died, I did go to her funeral. Her children said, I am surprised you came after how she treated you. I told them I came to make sure she was dead, buried and never coming back...my sister did not attended. ~Cathy~ p.s. I wanted to tell them, she was lucky I didn't put her there, I thought about many, many times.

[Cathy]

The plane described above went from NYC to Peoria, then back, twice a day, morning and afternoon.

If one was only going as far as Cleveland, one could go in the afternoon, have a leisurely evening, and come back the next morning, thus doing the jaunt with a nice block of time for a visit in less than twenty-four hours.

This isn't to say that Ayn and Frank ever took that plane, but hypothetically it would have made a significant dent in the time needed for a trip to Ohio.

Ellen

Ellen, do they keep plane logs from back then? All the O'Connor brother's and sister's were close. Even Aunt Bess who didn't travel would call and my dad would call her. Aunt Agnes would visited everyone and we heard about everything that was going on in everyone's life...the exception was Margaret. My aunt would tell me stories on how they grew up, they had to stick together...just like me and Conny. ~Cathy~

[Ellen Stuttle]

Ellen, do they keep plane logs from back then?

I have no idea.

The company discontinued in 1986, although another company briefly used the name from 2000-2001.

I looked up Ozark Airlines on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozark_Air_Lines

Speaking of the way memory comes back in fits and starts, I have to make a further correction to my posts above. The wiki article jogged the remembrance that the flight didn't terminate in Peoria but instead continued to Denver. Also that the way the route was set up was with crossing planes. I.e., one plane would start from Denver and go to New York and another would go the opposite way.

It was a really nice flight, comfortable seats, and I don't recall the plane ever being filled to capacity the times I took it.

Plus you could get a ticket not long before the flight, none of the getting to the airport an hour in advance and security checks.

Ellen

[Jerry Biggers]

Some famous novelist based a whole novel around trains.("For those in Rio Linda, they were also called railroads." - to use a famous quip from Limbaugh) And was well known as preferring to ride in trains. There were trains from New York going to...everywhere. Same, obviously, from Los Angeles.

Or,..er..was Rand's use of trains as her favorite form of transportation already discussed?

[Ellen Stuttle]

Some famous novelist based a whole novel around trains.("For those in Rio Linda, they were also called railroads." - to use a famous quip from Limbaugh) And was well-known as preferring to ride in trains. There were trains from New York going to...everywhere. Same, obviously, from Los Angeles.

Nonetheless, she did fly to Portland, Oregon, from Chicago, from Portland to stops on the same trip - the fall, 1963, trip - then back East, though we don't know whether just as far as Chicago and other transportation from there or all the way to NYC, nor if she and the Brandens flew to Chicago going.

And what's your point, since all this has been covered?

Ellen

Edit: Jerry added a line to his post while I was posting. Answer, yes, it has been.

Additional edit: I wouldn't say that trains were Rand's favorite form of transportation to use. Mostly, on trips where the means of transportation was mentioned, it was by car, with Frank driving. (Barbara said it was a harrowing experience to have Frank at the wheel.)

After Frank was too spacey to drive - about the last decade of his life - they went to the Ford Hall Forum by bus.

A friend of mine in those years was once sitting "all ears" in the seat behind Rand and Peikoff, who were seated together, on the way to Boston.

Larry and I sometimes crack up laughing at imagining the scene. The friend is tall, in those days had a thick mane of curly dark hair. His eyebrows - which are still dark and thick - go up and down when he's excited. We imagine him just barely able to restrain himself from leaning forward over the seat back, the better to hear what was being said.

[Cathy]

Some famous novelist based a whole novel around trains.("For those in Rio Linda, they were also called railroads." - to use a famous quip from Limbaugh) And was well-known as preferring to ride in trains. There were trains from New York going to...everywhere. Same, obviously, from Los Angeles.

Nonetheless, she did fly to Portland, Oregon, from Chicago, from Portland to stops on the same trip - the fall, 1963, trip - then back East, though we don't know whether just as far as Chicago and other transportation from there or all the way to NYC, nor if she and the Brandens flew to Chicago going.

And what's your point, since all this has been covered?

Ellen

Edit: Jerry added a line to his post while I was posting. Answer, yes, it has been.

Additional edit: I wouldn't say that trains were Rand's favorite form of transportation to use. Mostly, on trips where the means of transportation was mentioned, it was by car, with Frank driving. (Barbara said it was a harrowing experience to have Frank at the wheel.)

After Frank was too spacey to drive - about the last decade of his life - they went to the Ford Hall Forum by bus.

A friend of mine in those years was once sitting "all ears" in the seat behind Rand and Peikoff, who were seated together, on the way to Boston.

Larry and I sometimes crack up laughing at imagining the scene. The friend is tall, in those days had a thick mane of curly dark hair. His eyebrows - which are still dark and thick - go up and down when he's excited. We imagine him just barely able to restrain himself from leaning forward over the seat back, the better to hear what was being said.

Ellen, I believe it was in 67, they all three were there. My dad was going to St. Louis for his first cancer treatment and Aunt Agnes had to stay to watch us while they were gone. They might have all three stayed overnight but I just remember Aunt Agnes. There's another long story behind this, but Ill go into that some other time. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Some famous novelist based a whole novel around trains.("For those in Rio Linda, they were also called railroads." - to use a famous quip from Limbaugh) And was well known as preferring to ride in trains. There were trains from New York going to...everywhere. Same, obviously, from Los Angeles.

Or,..er..was Rand's use of trains as her favorite form of transportation already discussed?

Just courious...do you believe me yet Jerry? ~Cathy~

[Ellen Stuttle]

Cathy,

What king of cancer did your dad have? You probably said before and I forgot.

His having to go to St. Louis is indicative of how things were with treatment at that time. Hard to get . Few places had facilities. Also, treatment was often extremely debilitating of energy.

My "dad" (my mother's second husband, but I never met my biological father) was a doctor. An orthopedic surgeon not a cancer specialist. He went to St. Louis maybe a couple times a month to do some clinical work there. St. Louis and Chicago were "state of the art" medical centers for the MidWest at that time.

--

'Nother subject: Aunt Agnes. You said in #369 that she went everywhere visiting family. Did she go out-of-state also, or just the local family? Did she ever get to New York?

Ellen