Frank's Niece!

[Cathy]

Neil, My aunt told me of the abortion. She felt it was going to come out sooner than later and she wanted us to know her side of it. My aunt also told us of Harry, same thing applies. maybe she wanted us prepared down the line...she knew about Aunt Alice really being "Ayn" and according to you all this was when she was really big. Abortions I don't think were legal back then and homosexuality wasn't as accepted as it is today. I never meet MiMi or her husband. It was Uncle Frank who did the magic tricks. I heard the conversation from the next room about the affair. I asked my aunt about it and she told me. Aunt Agnes always told my dad...Bill if they ask you, then they deserve the truth. I asked and I got the truth. Just because we were Catholic, doesn't mean the damn family wasn't dysfunctional...Cathy

[Cathy]

Do you know how my father made a living, he was a professional poker player...the strict Catholic that he was. He was even going to rig a dice table in our basement and use our hands to get over the rafters to rig the wires because our hands were small. He was also a bookie...maybe you can find the article in the Chronicle telegram where Eddie's cigar store on Broad st Elyria got busted for placing bets...that's where my dad would got to drop off all those long white pieces of paper with circled numbers around them at. We went with him many, many of times. that should give you a time frame of what I am remembering. It was always, do as I say, not as I do. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Here's a find from the "Calendar" in The Objectivist for January 1969:

On Saturday, March 1 [1969], Ayn Rand will appear on "The Alan Douglas Show," on WKBF-TV in Cleveland [my emphasis].

Ellen

Oh, damn, spoke too soon.

The next "Calendar" - February 1969 - says the appearance was canceled.

[Ellen, did they already leave before it got cancelled? ~Cathy~ BTW your the one who helped me remember Aunt Bess's family :)/quote]

[Cathy]

Michael, thank you once again

[Ellen Stuttle]

Cathy,

Since the cancellation notice (of the TV show appearance scheduled for Cleveland on March 1, 1969), appeared in the February announcements, I surmise it was cancelled in advance. There's an announcement in the next issue about Rand's Columbia University radio show being discontinued.

Looks to me as if Frank might have gotten ill, or maybe Rand was too busy and tired from catching up to publication of The Objectivist.

That was a commoted time, to coin a word, after the Rand/Branden break.

--

Thanks for the family member list.

I'm still perplexed at the thought that Aunt Alice would have thought Nick (Harry) was homosexual. According to other sources, Mimi, who knew Nick well and who spent several summers with Ayn and Frank, seems to have been the one who raised that idea. She did talk about it in taped interviews. On the other hand, both Barbara and Joan Bllumenthal - another member of the "Inner Circle," as Rand's closest associates were called - have expressed the belief that Ayn would have been the last to guess.

Never mind Neil, and what he thinks is or isn't likely because it would or wouldn't have happened in his family. LOL

Ellen

[Cathy]

Michael, thank you once again p.s. I thought everyone knew of the abortion and affair...didn't they?

[Cathy]

Cathy,

Since the cancellation notice (of the TV show appearance scheduled for Cleveland on March 1, 1969), appeared in the February announcements, I surmise it was cancelled in advance. There's an announcement in the next issue about Rand's Columbia University radio show being discontinued.

Looks to me as if Frank might have gotten ill, or maybe Rand was too busy and tired from catching up to publication of The Objectivist.

That was a commoted time, to coin a word, after the Rand/Branden break.

--

Thanks for the family member list.

I'm still perplexed at the thought that Aunt Alice would have thought Nick (Harry) was homosexual. According to other sources, Mimi, who knew Nick well and who spent several summers with Ayn and Frank, seems to have been the one who raised that idea. She did talk about it in taped interviews. On the other hand, both Barbara and Joan Bllumenthal - another member of the "Inner Circle," as Rand's closest associates were called - have expressed the belief that Ayn would have been the last to guess.

Never mind Neil, and what he thinks is or isn't likely because it would or wouldn't have happened in his family. LOL

Ellen

I don't think my aunt would lie to me...telling me everything maybe a different story tho. She told me Uncle Harry (Nick) was not gay. Anymore who knows...I could careless if he was or wasn't but in that day and time they would care. Maybe she was protecting him...she was the rescuer of the family. If anyone in my family should have had the fame and fortune, it should have been Aunt Agnes...she was everything. Do you know how to look up old newspaper articles? I believe Eddie's cigar store got busted in late 69/70. whatever date on that I believe it was a year before was the last time I seen them. I could be wrong...it just came back when Neil was talking about his Catholic family. My sister for the first time read all the SOLO post last night...big step for her. She didn't want to talk about it last night or today yet, but she said she is getting memory back...and she is not to happy with me about it. But she is coming around. Maybe between her and me we can make sense of it all. Ellen...didn't you all know about the abortion and affair? ~Cathy~

[caroljane]

Brant, you all are so much smarter than me. When I get it, I will email you so you can tell me exactly how to take care of it. I raised six children, and apparently I only know baby talk. I'm going to get me a dictionary and set it right by me, so I know every word you all are saying...but you all are teaching me some really cool words!

No Cathy, Brant may be, but "we all" are not smarter than you. Knowing a lot of words is not the same as being smart. In my case it just indicates laziness, I was able to lie around reading a lot instead of doing anything productive. Successfully raising six kids is smart. I only raised two and the smart parent was my husband, not me. The younger one hung around the house until I finally had to sell it.

[Ellen Stuttle]

Cathy,

About the affair...

I suspected as much the first time I read Atlas Shrugged when I was eighteen and a half, and became almost sure that there was a romance between Ayn and Nathaniel when I saw the two of them together, from a front-row vantage seat, at the McCormick Place lecture in Chicago, 1963.

I then wondered, because of Nathaniel's wording in his "Answer to Ayn Rand" following the break, if maybe there hadn't been an actual affair but just her desire for one.

Then in 1978, Allan Blumenthal let slip a comment in a conversation I had with him, and I thought, Ah, so there was an actual affair, not merely a wish for one on Rand's part.

Then of course Barbara's biography, 1986, made the affair public.

I didn't hear or read anything about an abortion until Heller's book came out in 2009. Heller gave your cousin Connie as the source. I had a question-mark over it, because Heller didn't provide enough substantiation, imo. Your testimony convinces me.

Ellen

Add: I just noticed that your question was general, wondering if we all knew. My eyes aren't so good anymore, and I didn't see the "all."

Definitely everyone here knew about the affair. It's been talked about and talked about. I don't know if anyone here had heard about the abortion prior to Heller's book.

[Cathy]

Brant, you all are so much smarter than me. When I get it, I will email you so you can tell me exactly how to take care of it. I raised six children, and apparently I only know baby talk. I'm going to get me a dictionary and set it right by me, so I know every word you all are saying...but you all are teaching me some really cool words!

No Cathy, Brant may be, but "we all" are not smarter than you. Knowing a lot of words is not the same as being smart. In my case it just indicates laziness, I was able to lie around reading a lot instead of doing anything productive. Successfully raising six kids is smart. I only raised two and the smart parent was my husband, not me. The younger one hung around the house until I finally had to sell it.

[LOL! That's funny. I would love for all my kids to live with me forever, but I know I wouldn't be doing them justice. I don't know about successfully...I am more proud of some than others, shhhhh. My son Ricky is the most like the O'Connor men. He is 28 still not married and no children...I don't think that will ever happen for him. My daughter Kristen is starting off just like me, two babies 11 months apart and both in diapers and she loves every minute of it, and works full time. It is Kristen who wanted me to find out about my family because of her babies. I have been telling her everything, she said mom, with everything you went through with your step mother, you were a good role model for me and a good mother and now best friend...she made me cry ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Cathy,

About the affair...

I suspected as much the first time I read Atlas Shrugged when I was eighteen and a half, and became almost sure that there was a romance between Ayn and Nathaniel when I saw the two of them together, from a front-row vantage seat,at the McCormick Place lecture in Chicago, 1963.

I then wondered, because of Nathaniel's wording in his "Answer to Ayn Rand" following the break, if maybe there hadn't been an actual affair but just her desire for one.

Then in 1978, Allan Blumenthal let slip a comment in a conversation I had with him, and I thought, Ah, so there was an actual affair, not merely a wish for one on Rand's part.

Then of course Barbara's biography, 1986, made the affair public.

I didn't hear or read anything about an abortion until Heller's book came out in 2009. Heller gave your cousin Connie as the source. I had a question-mark over it, because Heller didn't provide enough substantiation, imo. Your testimony convinces me.

Ellen

Did Connie say it was her mom and dad that loaned them the money? Connie would know because she was Aunt Agnes's daughter and if Aunt Agnes told me she would have told her children. I know she had an affair...never was I told the name or how long it went on...until here. ~Cathy~

[Ellen Stuttle]

Did Connie say it was her mom and dad that loaned them the money?

Yes, she said that.

I've formed quite a liking for your Aunt Agnes from your tale. Agnes sounds like she was a sharp lady.

Ellen

[Cathy]

Did Connie say it was her mom and dad that loaned them the money?

Yes, she said that.

I've formed quite a liking for your Aunt Agnes from your tale. Agnes sounds like she was a sharp lady.

Ellen

Then my Aunt Agnes told me the truth! She was my absolute favorite person in the whole world! She taught us little things to. She said when you have company and you have to pee pee, turn on the water first so your company doesn't hear you...thats what ladies do! I miss her terribly! ~Cathy

[Ellen Stuttle]

Cathy,

Your latest information about Eddie's Cigar Store and such like are giving me clues about something I've been wondering about, why there's no detailed mention of the rest of Frank's family besides Nick and Mimi and a little about Joe in Barbara's book.

Maybe it was a bit too "raunchy," shall we say, to fit the picture of the relatives of Rand's husband.

Ellen

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Cathy,

I cleaned up the formatting in a couple of your posts so your words are clearly separated from those you quoted. It's not your fault, though. The forum software seems to be misbehaving because the cleanup didn't work like it should have. I had to play with it and fiddle around trying out different things for a few minutes to get it right.

This problem should pass.

(And it definitely will in the next incarnation of OL when I migrate this place to the Internet cloud.)

Michael

[caroljane]

Cathy,

Your latest information about Eddie's Cigar Store and such like are giving me clues about something I've been wondering about, why there's no detailed mention of the rest of Frank's family besides Nick and Mimi and a little about Joe in Barbara's book.

Maybe it was a bit too "raunchy," shall we say, to fit the picture of the relatives of Rand's husband.

Ellen

It's wonderful, Duddy Kravitz meets Howard Roark, Tansky's Cigar & Soda opens in Galt's Gulch/

[Cathy]

Cathy,

Your latest information about Eddie's Cigar Store and such like are giving me clues about something I've been wondering about, why there's no detailed mention of the rest of Frank's family besides Nick and Mimi and a little about Joe in Barbara's book.

Maybe it was a bit too "raunchy," shall we say, to fit the picture of the relatives of Rand's husband.

Ellen

I have no idea. Did they mention anything about Margaret? I can not for the life of me remember her. I don't remember any visits from her, or Aunt Agnes saying much about her. Did she die young? Now I am also wondering if the reason my dad said he wasn't fond of Aunt Alice because she was Jewish, and didn't want me to know she was Atheist. Isn't a biography suppose to be about her whole life, or just parts they want people to know? BTW, it must have been Donahue that triggered the memory, if you didn't say Elizabeth. Whatever I'm glad it did lol. Does anyone on hear talk to Barbra? If she was Aunt Alice's friend...don't you think she would know about the family? Did Connie ever say that my grandparents ever found out about the abortion? ~Cathy~ sorry so many questions

[Brant Gaede]

Did Connie say it was her mom and dad that loaned them the money?

Yes, she said that.

I've formed quite a liking for your Aunt Agnes from your tale. Agnes sounds like she was a sharp lady.

Ellen

Then my Aunt Agnes told me the truth! She was my absolute favorite person in the whole world! She taught us little things to. She said when you have company and you have to pee pee, turn on the water first so your company doesn't hear you...thats what ladies do! I miss her terribly! ~Cathy

That wasn't why I turned the water on first so the company didn't hear me.

--Brant

pissing in the sink, BTW, is a male option

when I visited my grand parents in D.C. in November 1960 I didn't know where anything was in the apartment and there were no night lights on at night--I woke up around two or three AM and had to go big time--desperately stumbling blindly around, bumping into stuff, I couldn't find the light switch or the bathroom and thought I finally found it until I discovered I was in the kitchen pissing on a chair

[Cathy]

Cathy,

I cleaned up the formatting in a couple of your posts so your words are clearly separated from those you quoted. It's not your fault, though. The forum software seems to be misbehaving because the cleanup didn't work like it should have. I had to play with it and fiddle around trying out different things for a few minutes to get it right.

This problem should pass.

(And it definitely will in the next incarnation of OL when I migrate this place to the Internet cloud.)

Michael

Thank you Michael. I am not good at this yet, just learning. I wrote something, I thought I hit the post and didn't see it and re-wrote it. who knows where it went lol.

[Cathy]

Did Connie say it was her mom and dad that loaned them the money?

Yes, she said that.

I've formed quite a liking for your Aunt Agnes from your tale. Agnes sounds like she was a sharp lady.

Ellen

Then my Aunt Agnes told me the truth! She was my absolute favorite person in the whole world! She taught us little things to. She said when you have company and you have to pee pee, turn on the water first so your company doesn't hear you...thats what ladies do! I miss her terribly! ~Cathy

That wasn't why I turned the water on first so the company didn't hear me.

--Brant

pissing in the sink, BTW, is a male option

when I visited my grand parents in D.C. in November 1960 I didn't know where anything was in the apartment and there were no night lights on at night--I woke up around two or three AM and had to go big time--desperately stumbling blindly around, bumping into stuff, I couldn't find the light switch or the bathroom and thought I finally found it until I discovered I was in the kitchen pissing on a chair

HA HA HA! gross! LOL

[KacyRay]

I am sorry PDF if I missed understood...please except my apologies no hard feelings ok? I'm just having a hard time with all this, so please be patient with me. ~Cathy~ sorry...

No apology necessary. You would have to do much worse to offend me in any way. But continuing to call me PDF is one of them.**

**Just kidding.

LOL....

Passive-aggression... for the win!

[Brant Gaede]

From Oblivia's recent post to Cathy on SOLOP:

"Hi. If your story is true, it's an amazing one. To find out that your deceased Aunt Alice is really the greatest philosopher of the 20th Century ..."

Good lord. Why is it that so many Objectivists can't feel the froth dripping down their chins when they're Objecti-vangelizing?

J

In the context of the discussion, that's crap.

--Brant

is it crap in the context of a crappy discussion?

Has Cathy said that she found out that her deceased Aunt Alice was really the greatest philosopher of the 20th Century? All that I saw Cathy say was that she found out that her aunt was a famous writer.

J

Sorry, J, I wasn't referring to your comment but the previous one. My bag.

--Brant

(I'm reviewing the thread)

[Brant Gaede]

Another example is even more serious. Cathy asked several times so far why Rand did not stand up for her when she was a child who received brutal beatings and Rand knew about them. After all, Rand was a famous activist and, although she did not say it, I know some of the more Rand Myth people have thought it by now, Rand preached that initiation of force was sheer evil. So what could be a purer example of this sheer evil be than a small child being savagely beaten right under her nose, in her very family? As an adult, Cathy asked where was she? In her subconscious, she's been asking for almost half a century. It's a fair question, too. I would be asking the same damn thing in her shoes. Definitely not one of Rand's finer choices.

Michael, I have reviewed all of Cathy's posts to this point here and on SOLO and the closest I can get to her supporting your statement is her 89, 104 and 135. Did you get something off her Facebook page?

--Brant

I couldn't quite understand what she was writing about in 104

[Neil Parille]

Ellen,

Never mind Neil, and what he thinks is or isn't likely because it would or wouldn't have happened in his family. LOL

You think it is likely that Aunt Alice would tell Cathy about Frank's sexuality and that Cathy's mother would tell her about Rand's alleged abortion?

-Neil Parille

[Ellen Stuttle]

Ellen,

Never mind Neil, and what he thinks is or isn't likely because it would or wouldn't have happened in his family. LOL

You think it is likely that Aunt Alice would tell Cathy about Frank's sexuality and that Cathy's mother would tell her about Rand's alleged abortion?

-Neil Parille

Neil,

I'm posting from an iPad and can't jump around and copy stuff from other posts the way I can on my regular computer.

See Cathy's 276.

http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13225&p=182572

The aunt she's talking about, who she says told her of both Nick's sexuality (I assume you mean Nick's, not Frank's) and of the abortion, was her Aunt Agnes, and, yeah, I think it's real likely, judging from everything Cathy's said about Aunt Agnes, that Agnes would have told her.

Ellen