Frank's Niece!

[Cathy]

Sorry to be so sarcastic. I just can't stand him, but that's me.

am getting so confused with who is writing. Ellen or Ginny?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Peikoff has to live with himself...I wonder how he likes it.

Cathy.

LOL...

Now that was funny.

Michael

[ginny]

Cathy, you don't need to justify your beliefs. You're here to get information, not to debate philosophy. Obviously, everyone here respects that. Atheists try to be nice every other Tuesday and during full moon. Althought I don't know why. It's not like we're going straight to hell.

[Guyau]

Cathy, the following was written by Marsha Enright in Ayn Rand Explained (2012) in the section “Ayn and Frank.” The book from which Marsha quotes a bit within this section was written by Nathaniel and Barbara Branden, six years before the split with Ayn Rand. (Marsha* is a friend of mine.)

Except for the orthodox, almost every writer seems to see Rand’s marriage to Frank O’Connor as a puzzle because he wasn’t a genius inventor or a ground-breaking artist or titan of industry, like her heroes. They tend to assume she must have deluded herself in order to explain why she was so deeply in love with him [and held him to be] her model for Roark [and] the other heroes. More than a few fall back on his looks for an explanation, presuming she projected a heroic character into him because he looked like her fictional ideal. But is such a delusion possible to maintain for decades? Is that enough to explain a lifetime’s relationship?

Few seemed to have known him well except the Brandens, and can their views be impartial? She cast them out and denounced them. One would only expect they would have had a hard time being evenhanded about her. And their relatives and friends—the “Collective” of Jewish intellectuals who formed her inner circle—would they be objective as to what Frank was like? Not only would their cultural differences and expectations have been vast (he was an Irish-American by background), but also by their own accounts, they were boisterously obsessed with ideas, barely paying attention to the quiet artist in the corner.

Is there another way to view him, his character, and his relationship with Ayn? I haven’t seen any commentator consider the idea that, as a sensitive artist, not especially intellectual, and not a genius, but intelligent and sharp about what was happening in the world, he could have had a towering moral character, worthy of The Fountainhead’s dedication, and of her love and loyalty for fifty years. As she said after he died, “he was so good” (Donahue interview, 1979). Apparently, most commentators don’t know much about his moral character—but who would, with so little knowledge of him?

Ayn met Frank when they were two artists in their twenties. She was immediately attracted to him by his looks and bearing—“my kind of man,” as she would say. She picked him out in Hollywood, from among very many attractive actors. When she saw him “She felt a shock of astonishment—a sense of almost recognition—and an emotion of such intensity that she could not know if it was pleasure or pain.” Months later when she ran into him again, they spent hours talking.

“They discussed movies and writing and acting and what they intended to do in the future; they talked eagerly, without strain and with no sense of being strangers. By the end of the day, she knew that what she had seen in his face, that first morning on the streetcar, she now had found in his character” (Branden and Branden 1962, 174–77).

He must have been quite the conversationalist to hold her interest. She never suffered fools—or small talk—gladly. As she repeatedly said, they had a lot in common: their ambitions, sensibilities, and outlooks. She also said he complemented and supported her with his insouciant American sense of life—those who knew him even a little agreed he was quite humorous and witty. And she seemed to be very supportive and encouraging of his artistic pursuits. Their array of nicknames for each other such as “Fluff” and “Cubbyhole” convey something of their close affection. For decades, through very tough times, they worked on their careers, and had difficulty making ends meet. On the day in 1943 before The Fountainhead was published, Frank told her “We’ve made it, this time,” conveying the sense that they were a team in their pursuits (204).

And he must have understood and enjoyed her tremendously—since, with his looks and elegant manner, he likely could have had his pick of Hollywood beauties. The fact that he married her and stayed with her all the time they were poor, when divorce would not have been any kind of social problem for him, speaks volumes.

In the introduction to the twenty-fifth anniversary edition of The Fountainhead, she reveals how depressed she was at the state of the world in the late 1930’s, with Nazism and Communism running rampant, turning Europe into one gigantic slave state, and no one apparently able to stop it. She was so depressed she almost quit writing the novel; she recounts how Frank talked her out of it.

He talked her out of something? He argued her out of something? Who could do that? Just look at the testimony of Cerf, Haydn, and myriad others to get some perspective on that feat. Clearly, he was a person of discerning judgment, whose counsel she deeply valued.

So why, after this intense intimacy, did Ayn take up with Nathaniel Branden?

Indeed, the attentions and attraction of a young, handsome man would have had a great deal of flattering excitement for an older woman. But Branden, by many accounts exceptionally brilliant, offered much more. After three decades of intellectual isolation and misapprehension by others, Rand would have been starved for thoughtful, intelligently appreciative, and deeply enthusiastic feedback about her ideas, from an “outsider,” someone not of her world, who could give her a sense of objective feedback. She longed to find some accomplished intellectuals who recognized her value. Then, along came the brilliant Nathan Blumenthal (Nathaniel Branden’s original name) who had deeply studied every word she’d written and was ready to mirror all she was. And he did just that—to a fault.

By trying to embody, and then acting the role of Randian hero, he offered her an intellectual mirror unavailable elsewhere. By worshipping her artistry and appreciating it in detail, he offered a new reflection of her passion. And, by his own admission, he cultivated his role with vigor. This complex of intense experiences apparently was irresistible.

This relationship did not destroy her marriage to Frank O’Connor. Some writers have argued that he stayed because he had no other financial support. Perhaps, but it’s likely he could have gotten a big divorce settlement. Given the close and affectionate way they acted until the end of O’Connor’s life, it’s just as likely that their loving relationship survived. (53–55)

Cathy, for Atlas Shrugged (1957), Rand chose the dedication TO FRANK O’CONNOR AND NATHANIEL BRANDEN. In the “About the Author” section following the novel’s conclusion, she included:

My other acknowledgement is on the dedication page of this novel. I knew what values of character I wanted to find in a man. I met such a man—and we have been married for twenty-eight years. His name is Frank O’Connor. When I wrote The Fountainhead, I was addressing myself to an ideal reader—to as rational and independent a mind as I could conceive of. I found such a reader—through a fan letter he wrote me about The Fountainhead when he was nineteen years old. He is my intellectual heir. His name is Nathaniel Branden.

At that time, she was having her romantic relationship with Nathan, in addition to their intellectual relationship. I approve of her front to the public, concealing her precious relationship which the public would condemn and ridicule.

Cathy, people here have not wanted to get into a debate with you over your religious faith and your moral views. I don’t want to do that either. I want to let you know, however, that Objectivists are all atheists, they do not regard all abortions as morally wrong, and they do not regard adultery as necessarily wrong. Many who post here are not Objectivists, not in full agreement with the philosophy of Ayn Rand, and some disagree vehemently with Objectivism on some points, though they agree with the points atheism, abortion, adultery. That is, they do not share the traditional moral valence placed on those choices. Additionally, in my own case, I am gay, and I don’t agree with the traditional valence placed on that either. My first lover and I were together 22 years, from when we were both 19 to his death in 1990. My second partner and I have been together for 17 years. Those are accomplishments in unconventional happiness, eyes wide open. I recall my first partner telling a friend once that if he and I thought what we were doing was wrong, we wouldn’t do it. Period. That’s the deal: there are disagreements of moral judgment over such relationships.

With The Fountainhead, Rand gave me a vivid vista of the goodness of living by one’s own independent judgment. I still appreciate that gift these 46 years later. I do admire Ayn Rand, your aunt Alice, for some accomplishments in literature and in philosophy. But that is not all. I have some affection for her too, because of her gift. I do not worship her—that is another mentality, where you hear tell Rand was morally perfect, the greatest novelist ever, the greatest philosopher since Aquinas, and so forth.

Stephen

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS

If one looks up “O’Connor, Frank” in the Index of this book (p. 418), there is a lot.

[Cathy]

Cathy, you don't need to justify your beliefs. You're here to get information, not to debate philosophy. Obviously, everyone here respects that. Atheists try to be nice every other Tuesday and during full moon. Althought I don't know why. It's not like we're going straight to hell.

Ha ha ha ha ha!

[Jerry Biggers]

Cathy-

From your post #416:

How can anyone worship a person who commits adultery, had an abortion, and who is Atheist? All the things I do not believe in. How much power does she have???? Let me ask you something again...do I have any legal rights to get into that archive???? ~Cathy~

I don't know how many people on this forum "worship" Ayn Rand. On some of the other forums on the internet that discuss her ideas, admission (i.e., posting) will be revoked if you criticize her to any extent or mention the Brandens in any positive manner. At minimum, you will likely be severely rebuked, but most likely barred from posting. There are probably exceptions, but I think that that is what usually happens.

On this site (OL), it is likely that most respect and admire many (but not all) aspects of Rand's life. In general, there is more concern for her literary contributions, particularly her philosophy, Objectivism. Most people on OL (I think) agree with some, or all of it. Many have reservations on certain aspects, as is evident in reading the postings.

There are few, if any, here that "worship" Ayn Rand. In fact, viewing her as morally or philosophically perfect is tantamount to deifying her, making her a god.. However, she was human, not a god, and therefore subject to error. The "True Believers" those agreeing with Peikoff, would respond, "Yes, but Ayn is/was the living personification of her philosophy, which is the greatest ever written."

Re: atheism, most Objectivists appear to agree with Ayn Rand on the subject of atheism. I certainly do. I am an atheist - in my more optimistic moments (that's a joke...sorta). One of Rand's greatest contributions is her criticism of Christianity (both, in its conception of God, and particularly, in its ethics). She developed the Objectivist Ethics as an alternative to Christian ethics. She did, however, have a few positive things to say about Christianity (but that's another topic)..

"How much power does she have?" None. Except to the extent that you believe what she was 'preaching'.Most people here do think that she has made major contributions to philosophy, but was not right on everything.

Regarding your legal rights to get into the Ayn Rand Archives? ARI controls and limits access to those that they do not view as enemies of Objectivism. I have heard, somewhere, that they are in the process of digitizing all documents in preparation to posting them on the internet. I'll believe it when I see it.

BUT,...not all of her papers are at the Archives. A very large amount is now at the Library of Congress. I have no idea whether there is anything there that would help you, but it's possible. Access to the Library of Congress is open to all U.S. citizens, but that does not mean you can just walk in and have access to everything. Some access is restricted. You would have to get the permission of the Librarian of Congress. Your Congressman and or Senator may be able to help.

Just a few ideas. Good luck.

- Jerry Biggers

[Cathy]

Cathy, the following was written by Marsha Enright in Ayn Rand Explained (2012) in the section “Ayn and Frank.” The book from which Marsha quotes a bit within this section was written by Nathaniel and Barbara Branden, six years before the split with Ayn Rand. (Marsha* is a friend of mine.)

Except for the orthodox, almost every writer seems to see Rand’s marriage to Frank O’Connor as a puzzle because he wasn’t a genius inventor or a ground-breaking artist or titan of industry, like her heroes. They tend to assume she must have deluded herself in order to explain why she was so deeply in love with him [and held him to be] her model for Roark [and] the other heroes. More than a few fall back on his looks for an explanation presuming she projected a heroic character into him because he looked like her fictional ideal. But is such a delusion possible to maintain for decades? Is that enough to explain a lifetime’s relationship?

Few seemed to have known him well except the Brandens, and can their views be impartial? She cast them out and denounced them. One would only expect they would have had a hard time being evenhanded about her. And their relatives and friends—the “Collective” of Jewish intellectuals who formed her inner circle—would they be objective as to what Frank was like? Not only would their cultural differences and expectations have been vast (he was an Irish-American by background), but also by their own accounts, they were boisterously obsessed with ideas, barely paying attention to the quiet artist in the corner.

Is there another way to view him, his character, and his relationship with Ayn? I haven’t seen any commentator consider the idea that, as a sensitive artist, not especially intellectual, and not a genius, but intelligent and sharp about what was happening in the world, he could have had a towering moral character, worthy of The Fountainhead’s dedication, and of her love and loyalty for fifty years. As she said after he died, “he was so good” (Donahue interview, 1979). Apparently, most commentators don’t know much about his moral character—but who would, with so little knowledge of him?

Ayn met Frank when they were two artists in their twenties. She was immediately attracted to him by his looks and bearing—“my kind of man,” as she would say. She picked him out in Hollywood, from among very many attractive actors. When she saw him “She felt a shock of astonishment—a sense of almost recognition—and an emotion of such intensity that she could not know if it was pleasure or pain.” Months later when she ran into him again, they spent hours talking.

“They discussed movies and writing and acting and what they intended to do in the future; they talked eagerly, without strain and with no sense of being strangers. By the end of the day, she knew that what she had seen in his face, that first morning on the streetcar, she now had found in his character” (Branden and Branden 1962, 174–77).

He must have been quite the conversationalist to hold her interest. She never suffered fools—or small talk—gladly. As she repeatedly said, they had a lot in common: their ambitions, sensibilities, and outlooks. She also said he complemented and supported her with his insouciant American sense of life—those who knew him even a little agreed he was quite humorous and witty. And she seemed to be very supportive and encouraging of his artistic pursuits. Their array of nicknames for each other such as “Fluff” and “Cubbyhole” convey something of their close affection. For decades, through very rough times, they worked on their careers, and had difficulty making ends meet. For decades, through very tough times, they worked on their careers, and had difficulty making ends meet. On the day in 1943 before The Fountainhead was published, Frank told her “We’ve made it, this time,” conveying the sense that they were a team in their pursuits (204).

And he must have understood and enjoyed her tremendously—since, with his looks and elegant manner, he likely could have had his pick of Hollywood beauties. The fact that he married her and stayed with her all the time they were poor, when divorce would not have been any kind of social problem for him, speaks volumes.

In the introduction to the twenty-fifth anniversary edition of The Fountainhead, she reveals how depressed she was a the state of the world in the late 1930’s, with Nazism and Communism running rampant, turning Europe into one gigantic slave state, and no one apparently able to stop it. She was so depressed she almost quit writing the novel; she recounts how Frank talked her out of it.

He talked her out of something? He argued her out of something? Who could do that? Just look at the testimony of Cerf, Haydn, and myriad others to get some perspective on that feat. Clearly, he was a person of discerning judgment, whose counsel she deeply valued.

So why, after this intense intimacy, did Ayn take up with Nathaniel Branden?

Indeed, the attentions and attraction of a young, handsome man would have had a great deal of flattering excitement for an older woman. But Branden, by many accounts exceptionally brilliant, offered much more. After three decades of intellectual isolation and misapprehension by others, Rand would have been starved for thoughtful, intelligently appreciative, and deeply enthusiastic feedback about her ideas, from an “outsider,” someone not of her world, who could give her a sense of objective feedback. She longed to find some accomplished intellectuals who recognized her value. Then, along came the brilliant Nathan Blumenthal (Nathaniel Branden’s original name) who had deeply studied every word she’d written and was ready to mirror all she was. And he did just that—to a fault.

By trying to embody, and then acting the role of Randian hero, he offered her an intellectual mirror unavailable elsewhere. By worshipping her artistry and appreciating it in detail, he offered a new reflection of her passion. And, by his own admission, he cultivated his role with vigor. This complex of intense experiences apparently was irresistible.

This relationship did not destroy her marriage to Frank O’Connor. Some writers have argued that he stayed because he had no other financial support. Perhaps, but it’s likely he could have gotten a big divorce settlement. Given the close and affectionate way they acted until the end of O’Connor’s life, it’s just as likely that their loving relationship survived. (53–55)

Cathy, for Atlas Shrugged (1957), Rand chose the dedication TO FRANK O’CONNOR AND NATHANIEL BRANDEN. In the “About the Author” section following the novel’s conclusion, she included:

My other acknowledgement is on the dedication page of this novel. I knew what values of character I wanted to find in a man. I met such a man—and we have been married for twenty-eight years. His name is Frank O’Connor. When I wrote The Fountainhead, I was addressing myself to an ideal reader—to as rational and independent a mind as I could conceive of. I found such a reader—through a fan letter he wrote me about The Fountainhead when he was nineteen years old. He is my intellectual heir. His name is Nathaniel Branden.

At that time, she was having her romantic relationship with Nathan, in addition to their intellectual relationship. I approve of her front to the public, concealing her precious relationship which the public would condemn and ridicule.

Cathy, people here have not wanted to get into a debate with you over your religious faith and your moral views. I don’t want to do that either. I want to let you know, however, that Objectivists are all atheists, they do not regard all abortions as morally wrong, and they do not regard adultery as necessarily wrong. Many who post here are not Objectivists, not in full agreement with the philosophy of Ayn Rand, and some disagree vehemently with Objectivism on some points, though they agree with the points atheism, abortion, adultery. That is, they do not share the traditional moral valence placed on those choices. Additionally, in my own case, I am gay, and I don’t agree with the traditional valence placed on that either. My first lover and I were together 22 years, from when we were both 19 to his death in 1990. My second partner and I have been together for 17 years. Those are accomplishments in unconventional happiness, eyes wide open. I recall my first partner telling a friend once that if he and I thought what we were doing was wrong, we wouldn’t do it. Period. That’s the deal: there are disagreements of moral judgment over such relationships.

With The Fountainhead, Rand gave me a vivid vista of the goodness of living by one’s own independent judgment. I still appreciate that gift these 46 years later. I do admire Ayn Rand, your aunt Alice, for some accomplishments in literature and in philosophy. But that is not all. I have some affection for her too, because of her gift. I do not worship her—that is another mentality, where you hear tell Rand was morally perfect, the greatest novelist ever, the greatest philosopher since Aquinas, and so forth.

Stephen

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS

If one looks up “O’Connor, Frank” in the Index of this book (p. 418), there is a lot.

Stephen, this was great. Brought back even more memories for me! Aunt Agnes said that Uncle Frank Balanced Aunt Alice...keep her grounded, slowed her down so she could think straight (if that makes sense). She said they were the complete opposites of one another and would feed off each, as I remember her saying. I think he lack the excitement part that maybe she needed. Aunt Agnes said that Aunt Alice said if could blend both men together she would have the perfect man. Uncle Frank and my father, because of the way they carried themselves you would think that everything to them was casual and serious, but they would comment funny things spontaneously, and at times inappropriately that made them witty plus funny, because you wouldn't see it coming or coming from them. Aunt Agnes said when Uncle Frank first meet her,(Aunt Alice) she did most of the talking, and Uncle Frank was blown over by how enthusiastic she was to learn the American way. Almost like she wanted everything now (not material things, but knowledge)that it takes Americans to learn over a lifetime. She writes about what she seen in Uncle Frank, but doesn't say what he seen in her. Aunt Agnes said the Aunt Alice had a personality that if she walked into a room and didn't say a word, her personality so enormous that it would fill the room, just with her presents...I think that's what Uncle Frank seen/felt in her. Thank you Stephen, for putting that on here, I am remember clearly now on my talks with Aunt Agnes as though it was yesterday, she had the softest skin, and was very prim, proper and lady like. But she did have another side to her to, when she had enough, she was very outspoken. When she was in elementary school, she got mad at one of the nuns and mooned her and was kicked out of school. All of them (O'Connors) didn't talk much, so when they did it was something to listen to. As far as my beliefs about abortions, I believe it is a woman choice, I just choose not to. While my children were growing up I use to tell them, do you know why I only had six children, they would ask why, and I would say because I didn't want seven...that left them thinking for a minute. I do not believe in adultery...there has to be something sacred in a marriage, or don't get married. My last husband and I were married fifteen years and he cheated, I divorced him without hesitation, if your a cheat, your a liar...and I hate both. I don't know any Atheists, from the time I was born I was taught about God. When I was thirteen, I really thought there wasn't a God, and by fifteen got into drugs for years...but it was God that brought me out of it. My favorite and last foster mother, who taught me the most is gay. Not only is she gay but is married to a black woman. She was the only one that ever cared about me and I always wished that she would have been my first foster home...things may have been different. The only judgments I have (or try to have) for people is how they treat me. I know I said some hateful things about my aunt and uncle, I still don't know why we were not told, and I may never know why. I am getting over the anger part of it (sometimes)it helps when I remember Aunt Agnes's stories. You all have helped me more than you know... ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Cathy-

From your post #416:

How can anyone worship a person who commits adultery, had an abortion, and who is Atheist? All the things I do not believe in. How much power does she have???? Let me ask you something again...do I have any legal rights to get into that archive???? ~Cathy~

I don't know how many people on this forum "worship" Ayn Rand. On some of the other forums on the internet that discuss her ideas, admission (i.e., posting) will be revoked if you criticize her to any extent or mention the Brandens in any positive manner. At minimum, you will likely be severely rebuked, but most likely barred from posting. There are probably exceptions, but I think that that is what usually happens.

On this site (OL), it is likely that most respect and admire many (but not all) aspects of Rand's life. Ingeneral, there is more concern for her literary contributions, particularly her philosophy, Objectivism. Most (I think agree with some, or all of it). Many have reservations on certain aspects, as is evident in reading the postings.

There are few, if any, here that "worship" Ayn Rand. In fact, viewing her as morally or philosophically perfect is tantamount to deifying her, making her a god.. That is, she was human, not a god, and therefore subject to error. The "True Believers" those agreeing with Peikoff, would respond, "Yes, but Ayn is/was thge living personification of her philosophy, which is the greatest ever written."

Re: atheism, most Objectivists appear to agree with Ayn Rand on the subject of atheism. I certainly do. I am an atheist - in my more optimistic moments (that's a joke...sorta). One of Rand's greatest contributions is her criticism of Christianity (both, in its conception of in God, and in its ethics). She developed the Objectivist Ethics as an alternative to Christian ethics. She did, however, have a few positive things to say about Christianity (but that's another topic)..

"How much power does she have?" None. Except to the extent that you believe what she was 'preaching'.Most people here do think that she has made major contributions to philosophy, but was not right on everything.

Regarding your legal rights to get into the Ayn Rand Archives? ARI controls and limits access to those that they do not view as enemies of Objectivism.

BUT,...not all of her papers are at the Archives. A very large amount is now at the Library of Congress. I have no idea whether there is anything there that would help you, but it's possible. Access to the Library of Congress is open to all U.S. citizens, but that does not mean you can just walk in and have access to everything. Some access is restricted. You would have to get the permission of the Librarian of Congress. Your Congressman and or Senator may be able to help.

Just a few ideas. Good luck.

- Jerry Biggers

Thank you Jerry, I have a few days off and I will see what I can do. Where is the library of congress located? ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Thank you Ginny. I already tried Peikoff. I wonder if he waited for this day to happen...and now he hides! You would think that anyone who was with my uncle all those years and admired him would want to talk to the only living relative of his, I would. Peikoff isn't even related and I wanted to talk to him about them, because he was with them. He doesn't know what I agree upon on her views and beliefs to disapprove of me, so what is he afraid of? He knows! Does he come on here...do you think he has read this. And if he has, why doesn't he try to disprove me? I am sure by now he's been told, plus I e-mailed him in Feb. Let me ask you something...I hope no one takes this personally, or gets offended, this is just my thoughts... How can anyone worship a person who commits adultery, had an abortion, and who is Atheist? All the things I do not believe in. How much power does she have???? Let me ask you something again...do I have any legal rights to get into that archive???? ~Cathy~

Re "the only living relative" of Frank's, does that mean you know that Marna and Connie are dead? And I think you mentioned a 70 or so male cousin who's still alive.

As to Peikoff's coming on here and reading stuff, no way, Cathy. For one thing, Peikoff's sight is so bad, he needs large magnification to read at all. For another, a site such as this is beneath notice to Peikoff.

Your e-mailing him doesn't mean he saw or was even told about the email. He must have someone screen his e-mail except maybe on private addresses which only a few know. Unless you've received some kind of response from someone at ARI, I wouldn't be sure anyone there knows of you.

The archives are a privately owned resource, entrance to which is by permission.

--

I'm working on compiling an interview list for Marc. It's taking awhile, speaking of difficulty reading, and I have stuff scheduled for the next couple days, so the project will take longer than I'd anticipated.

Meanwhile, I found a couple references to your uncle Nick having bouts with TB as well as the chronic lung problems resulting from his being gassed in the war.

Ellen

Yes, I like a lot of people on here. For smart people you guys are pretty nice to me I am not trying to judge anyone. I've had hard battles in my life, drug use was one of them. I just had to turn my life around and in 1983 I was born again. Believe me, I have no rights to point fingers. Those things are just things I personally don't believe in. But I do believe in choice. Adultery, is not an accident. Atheism I do not know much about. Do they believe in evolution(sp?)then where do cows come from? The bible is a constant. I know sometimes its hard to believe in God, but I trust him. Peikoff has to live with himself...I wonder how he likes it. Thank you Jenny.

Ellen, I m sorry got Denny confused with my mother's side. Denny was a lawyer and he is I believe seventy eight now. It was his daughter I talked to. She never meet Aunt Agnes and was excited that I grew up with her. Her grandmother (my aunt) told her stories of Aunt Agnes. I will try and find her name for you, I know it, just forgot it but it will come back to me. I am writing things down now, because there is so much coming back to me that I don't want to forget. Sorry about the confusion. ~Cathy~

[Neil Parille]

Cathy,

I don't think there are any great bombshells in the ARI Archives, just lots of information tending to confirm the accuracy of Barbara Branden's biography.

-Neil

[Cathy]

Cathy,

I don't think there are any great bombshells in the ARI Archives, just lots of information tending to confirm the accuracy of Barbara Branden's biography.

-Neil

ok Neil, thank you...but we really don't know what's in there...there could be a bombshell, otherwise why keep it secret...ugh...all these secrets! ~Cathy~

[Jerry Biggers]

Cathy,

The Library of Congress is located next to the Capitol building in Washington, D.C. But, as I said, certain documents are in "Special Collections," and are not open to the public without getting special permission. This is often only granted to scholars and even they have to get permission (not always granted).

See their website for more information. http://loc.gov

Jerry

[Cathy]

Cathy,

The Library of Congress is located next to the Capitol building in Washington, D.C. But, as I said, certain documents are in "Special Collections," and are not open to the public without getting special permission. This is often only granted to scholars and even they have to get permission (not always granted).

See their website for more information. http://loc.gov

Jerry

Thank you Jerry. ~Cathy~

[Jerry Biggers]

Cathy, you don't need to justify your beliefs. You're here to get information, not to debate philosophy. Obviously, everyone here respects that. Atheists try to be nice every other Tuesday and during full moon. Althought I don't know why. It's not like we're going straight to hell.

Ginny,

Thanks!

And all along I thought "niceties to each other Objectivist" was every other Wednesday and during a lunar eclipse!

This explains a lot of my problems.

I am so grateful!

- Jerry

[Ellen Stuttle]

Stephen,

Thank you for post #429.

That's a sensitive, perceptive tribute/explanation from Marsha about Ayn and Frank, and from you about your regard for Ayn's work, and the range of response of others here.

Marsha, as you know, had a way of getting into conversations with Ayn during breaks at lecture courses - especially Allan Blumenthal's 1974 music course. She would talk to Ayn about cats, sharing photos with her. Marsha also talked with Frank, and was very fond of him. She has said better than anyone else I've read what was special about him, and why the bond.

As to the immediate shock of recognition Ayn felt, however, I think it was recognition of what she'd seen in a drawing, not much more than a sketch, long ago, age nine. I'm working on getting a photo of that sketch posted on another thread.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

About Ayn flying:

An endnote to page 333 in Heller's book (page 333 talks about the big Chicago, then West Coast trip in 1963) says:

pg. 511

She flew again in the 1970s.

Heller doesn't say where to. Maybe the trip to Washington, D.C., in 1974 for Greenspan's swearing in as chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers.

By the 1970s, Cathy and Conny were in foster homes, so that's too late for it to have been a visit Cathy remembers. However, it's evidence that Ayn was willing to fly again.

Ellen

[Cathy]

Could somebody please put on here (page 598, 100 voices) for me? Because someone said that Uncle Frank dropped out of Catholic school at a young age and enrolled himself in a public school because he was anti-religious. Does it say how old he was? My grandmother died when he was twelve, there was no way before then that my grandparents would have allowed that. Who said that? ~Cathy~

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Cathy,

If nobody else does it, I'll get to it tomorrow.

Michael

[Ellen Stuttle]

My grandmother died when he was twelve, there was no way before then that my grandparents would have allowed that. Who said that? ~Cathy~

According to a news item cited on pg. 441 of Heller's book, your grandmother died July 19, 1911.

Frank was born September 22, 1987, so he'd have been 13 and 1/2.

The pg. reference to 100 Voices is from Harry Binswanger's interview:

pg. 598

[....]. When Frank was six, he started the first grade at a Catholic school. After a few weeks, the first grade teacher from the school contacted his parents and asked, "Where's Frank?" His parents said, "What do you mean? We've been sending him to school every day." The teacher said, "We haven't seen him for weeks." It turned out that Frank, at age six, did not like Catholic school, and so he had taken himself out and enrolled himself in a public school where he was going every day. His family acceded to that and let him stay in the public school. Frank was very anti-religion. Ayn said he was harder against religion than she was. If so, it was probably because Frank had come from a Catholic background and rebelled against it from the start.

Barbara writes:

pg. 85

The one sour note in their childhood was that the O'Connor children hated the parochial school they attended and the martinet nuns who taught them. With the exception of Elizabeth, none of the children were religious in later life. Frank once said that when he was only six, he had, as usual, been taken to church one Sunday morning; but this particular week the priest was explaining that all babies are born in sin, and must be cleansed of their evil. The child was shocked at the idea; he knew that sin meant lying and stealing; how could an infant lie and steal? If that was what religion taught, he decided, then it didn't make sense; there was something wrong with it, something bad.

Barbara describes Frank as "fifteen-year-old" when his mother died.

Heller says:

pg. 65-66

Until Mary Agnes O'Connor became ill with breast cancer in 1910 or 1911, Frank had been groomed by her to rise above the laboring class. He was stunningly beautiful, as anyone who ever met him agreed: tall, slender, with a classic profile and great natural elegance. At age fourteen, after his mother's death, he had dropped out of his Catholic high school and become a lifelong atheist. (He was "even more of an atheist than I am," Rand once said.) Although he had little education, spelled phonetically, and possessed almost no independent curiosity about books and ideas, he was exceptionally witty, perceptive, well-mannered, and kind. By 1926 [the year Rand came to America], he had traveled from coast to coast seeking a vocation.

The endnote reference for Frank's dropping out of school says:

pg. 442

O'Connor dropped out of school in the summer of 1911.

No documentation is given for this (and was he going to summer school, that he dropped out in the summer?).

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

As to the immediate shock of recognition Ayn felt, however, I think it was recognition of what she'd seen in a drawing, not much more than a sketch, long ago, age nine. I'm working on getting a photo of that sketch posted on another thread.

Ellen

I got more than a photo of the sketch posted, thanks to help from my husband, who took the pictures, and Jonathan, a wiz at such procedures, who posted them for me on another thread.

I'll copy them here.......

The first one is photographed from Heller's book. Champagne was the author; Giffey was the illustrator.

Here are the Cyrus images that Ellen sent to me:

J

[Ellen Stuttle]

Looks like "Alice O'Connor" is the name Rand used for legal purposes.

Heller cites the Affidavit when Rand cut Nathaniel out of her will:

pg. 520, endnote to pg. 369

"Affidavit of Services," Probate Proceedings, Will of Alice O'Connor, a.k.a. Ayn Rand, New York County Surrogates Court, November 16, 1983, p. 2.

Ellen

[Cathy]

My grandmother died when he was twelve, there was no way before then that my grandparents would have allowed that. Who said that? ~Cathy~

According to a news item cited on pg. 441 of Heller's book, your grandmother died July 19, 1911.

Frank was born September 22, 1987, so he'd have been 13 and 1/2.

The pg. reference to 100 Voices is from Harry Binswanger's interview:

p

g. 598

[....]. When Frank was six, he started the first grade at a Catholic school. After a few weeks, the first grade teacher from the school contacted his parents and asked, "Where's Frank?" His parents said, "What do you mean? We've been sending him to school every day." The teacher said, "We haven't seen him for weeks." It turned out that Frank, at age six, did not like Catholic school, and so he had taken himself out and enrolled himself in a public school where he was going every day. His family acceded to that and let him stay in the public school. Frank was very anti-religion. Ayn said he was harder against religion than she was. If so, it was probably because Frank had come from a Catholic background and rebelled against it from the start.

Barbara writes:

pg. 85

The one sour note in their childhood was that the O'Connor children hated the parochial school they attended and the martinet nuns who taught them. With the exception of Elizabeth, none of the children were religious in later life. Frank once said that when he was only six, he had, as usual, been taken to church one Sunday morning; but this particular week the priest was explaining that all babies are born in sin, and must be cleansed of their evil. The child was shocked at the idea; he knew that sin meant lying and stealing; how could an infant lie and steal? If that was what religion taught, he decided, then it didn't make sense; there was something wrong with it, something bad.

Barbara describes Frank as "fifteen-year-old" when his mother died.

Heller says:

pg. 65-66

Until Mary Agnes O'Connor became ill with breast cancer in 1910 or 1911, Frank had been groomed by her to rise above the laboring class. He was stunningly beautiful, as anyone who ever met him agreed: tall, slender, with a classic profile and great natural elegance. At age fourteen, after his mother's death, he had dropped out of his Catholic high school and become a lifelong atheist. (He was "even more of an atheist than I am," Rand once said.) Although he had little education, spelled phonetically, and possessed almost no independent curiosity about books and ideas, he was exceptionally witty, perceptive, well-mannered, and kind. By 1926 [the year Rand came to America], he had traveled from coast to coast seeking a vocation.

The endnote reference for Frank's dropping out of school says:

pg. 442

O'Connor dropped out of school in the summer of 1911.

No documentation is given for this (and was he going to summer school, that he dropped out in the summer?).

Ellen

Thank you Ellen...Yes, Frank was 13 because my father was almost 7 when my grandmother died. They all went to a catholic school except Aunt Agnes, she was kicked out for mooning the nun. They were strict Catholics as adults to. Aunt Agnes attended mass with me before. I do believe Uncle Frank did drop out of school in 1911 or there after. My father dropped out to I think he was in 6th grade. As I told you when my grandmother died my grandfather was a mess. The kids took care of themselves, I think all of them dropped out of school one by one. But they didn't drop out of church. I really feel deep down that Uncle Frank wasn't Atheist, I think he was a husband keeping his wife happy. Or I'm just in denial of it...I hope not. Thank you Ellen ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Looks like "Alice O'Connor" is the name Rand used for legal purposes.

Heller cites the Affidavit when Rand cut Nathaniel out of her will:

pg. 520, endnote to pg. 369

"Affidavit of Services," Probate Proceedings, Will of Alice O'Connor, a.k.a. Ayn Rand, New York County Surrogates Court, November 16, 1983, p. 2.

Ellen

Thank you!

[ginny]

Aunt Agnes, she was kicked out for mooning the nun.

OMG - I'm in love with Aunt Agnes. Man, I'll bet even Ayn didn't push her around too much.

[Cathy]

As to the immediate shock of recognition Ayn felt, however, I think it was recognition of what she'd seen in a drawing, not much more than a sketch, long ago, age nine. I'm working on getting a photo of that sketch posted on another thread.

Ellen

I got more than a photo of the sketch posted, thanks to help from my husband, who took the pictures, and Jonathan, a wiz at such procedures, who posted them for me on another thread.

I'll copy them here.......

The first one is photographed from Heller's book. Champagne was the author; Giffey was the illustrator.

H

ere are the Cyrus images that Ellen sent to me:

J

Uncle Frank and my dad's stature was like that. They all resembled each other anyway.