Frank's Niece!

[Ellen Stuttle]

Starting to compile/coalesce interviews - this project will take considerably longer than the "couple days" I initially foolishly projected.

Marc,

I think the interviews at the top of the list from Cathy's standpoint would probably be the ones with Agnes' daughters, Mimi, Marna, and Connie.

All the interviews of Mimi were done by Barbara.

Dates:

January 20, 1983

February 18, 1983

February 20, 1983 (1 or 2?)

I'm not sure if Barbara interviewed Mimi once by herself on February 20, 1983, and a second time in a group interview including Minna Goldberg and Fern Brown, two of AR's relatives. Most of the references to that date specify the group interview, but a few only mention Mimi.

All interviews of Marna were done by Heller.

Dates:

June 21, 2004

December 6, 2006

December 16, 2006 (that reference might be a typo for December 6)

There are also references to correspondence with Marna on:

December 11, 2005

December 21, 2005

Interview of Connie by Heller:

Date:

September 21, 2004

(The only reference to Connie by name in Heller's book is on pg. 236, in a passage about Ayn and Frank's trip by car from California to NYC in 1951. I've found no references to either Marna or Connie in Barbara's book.)

Ellen

[Cathy]

Starting to compile/coalesce interviews - this project will take considerably longer than the "couple days" I initially foolishly projected.

Marc,

I think the interviews at the top of the list from Cathy's standpoint would probably be the ones with Agnes' daughters, Mimi, Marna, and Connie.

All the interviews of Mimi were done by Barbara.

Dates:

January 20, 1983

February 18, 1983

February 20, 1983 (1 or 2?)

I'm not sure if Barbara interviewed Mimi once by herself on February 20, 1983, and a second time in a group interview including Minna Goldberg and Fern Brown, two of AR's relatives. Most of the references to that date specify the group interview, but a few only mention Mimi.

All interviews of Marna were done by Heller.

Dates:

June 21, 2004

December 6, 2006

December 16, 2006 (that reference might be a typo for December 6)

There are also references to correspondence with Marna on:

December 11, 2005

December 21, 2005

Interview of Connie by Heller:

Date:

September 21, 2004

(The only reference to Connie by name in Heller's book is on pg. 236, in a passage about Ayn and Frank's trip by car from California to NYC in 1951. I've found no references to either Marna or Connie in Barbara's book.)

Ellen

Ellen, Marna was already died by 04/05 she died in 1995. It must have been Connie. ~Cathy~

[Ellen Stuttle]

Ellen, I found a website with death dates. MiMi died in 1985 and Marna died in 1995. I cant find connie yet or Margaret, But she couldn't have had an interview with them in 2004/2005. ~Cathy~

Well, Heller gives quotes from interviews with Marna in 2004 and 2006, and from correspondence with her in 2005, and Heller wasn't working on her book in 1995, so I think the death date for Marna has to be wrong. Where did you find it?

Doing re-calculating with the information given in Heller's text about Marna, I'm now figuring Marna's birth year as 1927 or possibly 1926, depending on what time of year.

Ellen

[Cathy]

Ellen, I found a website with death dates. MiMi died in 1985 and Marna died in 1995. I cant find connie yet or Margaret, But she couldn't have had an interview with them in 2004/2005. ~Cathy~

Well, Heller gives quotes from interviews with Marna in 2004 and 2006, and from correspondence with her in 2005, and Heller wasn't working on her book in 1995, so I think the death date for Marna has to be wrong. Where did you find it?

Doing re-calculating with the information given in Heller's text about Marna, I'm now figuring Marna's birth year as 1927 or possibly 1926, depending on what time of year.

Ellen

I have been working with Tom Nelson, he is retired from the social security administration...MiMi died in 85 and Marna died in 95. I can give you his e-mail address if you would like. ~Cathy~

[Marc]

Ellen ,

Thanks so much !

You amaze me in how you are able to gather so much information !

I am thinking of appointing you my head of archiving !

Thanks again,

[Cathy]

Ellen, here's what I found out...

Miriam agnes papurt Sutton 1918-1985

Marna m papurt wolfe 1927-1995

I still cant find out anything about Margret, but I vaguely remember something about her (I could be wrong) but that she died at eighteen in some kind of explosion. I don't know if my memory is right on this. I am still trying to find anything out about her. ~Cathy~

[Ellen Stuttle]

I have been working with Tom Nelson, he is retired from the social security administration...MiMi died in 85 and Marna died in 95. I can give you his e-mail address if you would like. ~Cathy~

Please do give me the e-mail address. Best to send it by private message.

The birth years you give in the above post agree with what I calculated on the basis of ages at certain occasions provided by Heller.

But the 1995 death date for Marna is way off Heller's dates for interviews and correspondence. Heller played some tricks with her witnesses but nothing remotely like channelling a ghost!

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

Cathy,

Did any of the Papurt children have children, do you know? You might have said before and I've forgotten.

Ellen

[Cathy]

Cathy,

Did any of the Papurt children have children, do you know? You might have said before and I've forgotten.

Ellen

I'm sure they did...but I don't remember them right now. ~Cathy~

[Neil Parille]

Cathy,

You said that Rand's falling out with her Chicago relatives had something to do with a coat?

When and from whom did you learn this?

-Neil

[Cathy]

Cathy,

You said that Rand's falling out with her Chicago relatives had something to do with a coat?

When and from whom did you learn this?

-Neil

I don't know which cousin...but it was Aunt Alice's cousin. and it was Aunt Agnes who told me. It turned into a big argument and they stopped talking. ~Cathy~

[Ellen Stuttle]

IIRC, Rand had promised one of the Chicago relatives a mink coat, and a Rolls Royce for the family. This was when she left for Hollywood. I think the story's in Heller, might be some mention of it in Barbara's bio. Haven't time at the moment to look.

Ellen

[Neil Parille]

Cathy,

You were in contact with Ayn's Chicago family? Or Aunt Agnes was?

-Neil

[Cathy]

Cathy,

You were in contact with Ayn's Chicago family? Or Aunt Agnes was?

-Neil

Aunt Agnes was in contact with Aunt Alice...I just heard the gossip about it

[Neil Parille]

Cathy,

Aunt Alice told Aunt Agnes that the issue with Rand's Chicago family was over the coat?

Approximately what year?

What was the context; how did it come up with conversation with you?

-Neil Parille

[Neil Parille]

Cathy,

Also, how do you know that Ayn was dissatisfied sexually with Frank.

Who told you that.

And what age did someone decide to talk to you about Aunt Alice's sex life?

-Neil

[Cathy]

Cathy,

Aunt Alice told Aunt Agnes that the issue with Rand's Chicago family was over the coat?

Approximately what year?

What was the context; how did it come up with conversation with you?

-Neil Parille

I didn't hear about the car, just the coat. Aunt Agnes was telling my dad. I don't know what year...the argument happened a long time before they had the conversation. My Aunt Agnes was saying to my dad that Aunt Alice expects everyone to say what they mean and mean what they say...but it didn't apply to Aunt Alice. My aunt brought up the coat that Aunt Alice promise one of her cousins, that started the whole argument. But it wasn't the cousin who didn't want anything to do with Aunt Alice, it was Aunt Alice who cut ties with the cousin. I just remember that it didn't seem right that Aunt Alice would have been mad about it cause she promised her the coat. If I remember right (I maybe wrong) but I think Aunt Alice didn't go to the funeral because that cousin would have been there. I remember they were saying it would have been something if Aunt Alice would have went wearing that coat. I think I'm remembering that right. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Cathy,

Also, how do you know that Ayn was dissatisfied sexually with Frank.

Who told you that.

And what age did someone decide to talk to you about Aunt Alice's sex life?

-Neil

I heard the conversation about the affair, and knew what that meant. I ask my Aunt Agnes about it. I was 11 or 12...I thought I was 13, but I wasn't in my father's house long after I turned 13. I thought they were going to get a divorce. She said that Aunt Alice loves Uncle Frank with all her heart. She said that Aunt Alice was looking to be young again and excitement. She did not tell me Aunt Alice was dissatisfied with Uncle Frank. She did say he couldn't give her variety but she was joking, because she laughed after she said it. She said the affair had nothing to do with love but with sex. She said some people think that love and sex are 2 different things. Uncle Frank was passive and they were together a long time and Aunt Alice got bored. Aunt Agnes is the one who taught us about sex and where babies came from, and taught us to bake pies and cookies. We didn't have anyone else. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

I just watched the first movie I had ever seen about my aunt and uncle...Sense of life. I'm happy I waited to watch it. I seen a picture of my dad and my aunts and uncles when they were little before my grandmother died...it was awesome! I think my sister and I take mostly after the O'Connor side than my mothers...at least the eyes and cheek bones. Uncle Frank looked like my father when he was younger, more so than older. I cried in the movie where uncle Frank died...I guess all along I thought it was all kind of a dream that I was remembering and they were still out there somewhere. My husband bought me the movie for Mother's Day, I'm happy he didn't rent it, I would have a terrible time returning it. ~Cathy~

[tmj]

heh

[tmj]

heh in sheldon's voice

[Cathy]

heh in sheldon's voice

[Cathy]

heh in sheldon's voice

[Ellen Stuttle]

Cathy and I have been sent a link to a Find-a-Grave page with information on Cathy's cousin Marna.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=84313165

Definitely looks like Marna was dead about a decade before the dates (2004-06) when Heller says she interviewed and corresponded with Marna.

Most peculiar.

(Looks like Heller also misspelled the last name - she spelled it "Wolf.")

We also received a link to an obituary for Mimi's and Marna's sister Connie:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=100479032

Connie died in 2012, so possibly Heller got her and Marna mixed up.

Ellen

[PDS]

Cathy,

Also, how do you know that Ayn was dissatisfied sexually with Frank.

Who told you that.

And what age did someone decide to talk to you about Aunt Alice's sex life?

-Neil

Neil: you really are a piece of work.

Do you realize how ridiculous some of these question are?