Frank's Niece!

[Brant Gaede]

Cathy,

Also, how do you know that Ayn was dissatisfied sexually with Frank.

Who told you that.

And what age did someone decide to talk to you about Aunt Alice's sex life?

-Neil

Neil: you really are a piece of work.

Do you realize how ridiculous some of these question are?

And I thought you had good reason to stop reading this thread!

--Brant

mostly, I have, for my big interest is Rand's ideas, not Frank O'Connor

Neil would drop an atomic bomb on an ant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

Neil's a Christian.

He's still working through his challenges about not casting stones, but I have faith in him.

Michael

[ginny]

Christian? More like Torquenada. I suggest if Cathy doesn't came up with the required answers, she gets burned at the stake. Make sure the kindle is moist so as to prolong the event. I'd personally appreciate nice picnic chair for a good view.

Christian? Whatever happened to Christian charity?

[PDS]

Christian? More like Torquenada. I suggest if Cathy doesn't came up with the required answers, she gets burned at the stake. Make sure the kindle is moist so as to prolong the event. I'd personally appreciate nice picnic chair for a good view.

Christian? Whatever happened to Christian charity?

Ginny:

I like your style.

Neil's fascination with some of this stuff is truly cringe-worthy, Christian or not.

[Cathy]

Neil is ok...I can handle him ;)

[Cathy]

This site was started with Ayn Rand's philosophy in mind. I would like to know why so may people still follow her today. I have been reading some of her beliefs, and so far I don't agree. I know I am only in the beginning and there is much, much more, but just the simplest points I just don't believe in. She said if there was only enough food to feed your husband...you wouldn't give the food to the neighbors husband...had to laugh about that one...I think if his name was Branden she would! She said she is Atheist, and when asked, where will she go when she dies...she said she wont die but the world will die...please explain that one. I believe she had a great mind, and convinced everyone else she did to, and when I get further into her philosophy I may agree on some of her views...but as of now these two things bothered me. As I look back now, and remembering the Aunt Alice I knew, she sucked the life out of Uncle Frank...he didn't stand a chance...I don't think anybody else did either.

[tmj]

Sucked the life out of.. no chance..?

Do you not think your uncle had any backbone? What hold do you think Aunt Alice had on him, that he could not escape such an evil person?

[Cathy]

Sucked the life out of.. no chance..?

Do you not think your uncle had any backbone? What hold do you think Aunt Alice had on him, that he could not escape such an evil person?

I didn't say she was evil...I think you had to believe her way or you would pay hell for it. I think Uncle Frank had to go along with her and if he disagreed he had to keep his mouth shut to keep the peace. I see things differently now...I'm not a young girl anymore and am remembering more things. I think she was brilliant...really. But I also think a person couldn't have their own views that were against her views and talk about it. I am sure she loved him...but not more than she loved herself. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Sucked the life out of.. no chance..?

Do you not think your uncle had any backbone? What hold do you think Aunt Alice had on him, that he could not escape such an evil person?

I didn't say she was evil...I think you had to believe her way or you would pay hell for it. I think Uncle Frank had to go along with her and if he disagreed he had to keep his mouth shut to keep the peace. I see things differently now...I'm not a young girl anymore and am remembering more things. I think she was brilliant...really. But I also think a person couldn't have their own views that were against her views and talk about it. I am sure she loved him...but not more than she loved herself. ~Cathy~

[ginny]

Cathy, I haven't hear the expression 'sucked the life out of' in relation to Rand, but I can't totally argue. Yeah, she was a force. Yeah, she could suck the life out of a few - Peikoff? The man's a shell. But that was her. She was brilliant and gave people some great books and a philosophy, if you can separate it from her personal views, that is fantantic. You don't need to agree, but a lot of people do.

Now, your questions: A person giving food to husband and not neightbor's husband. That was actually one of her best stuff and covers a lot. What she's saying is values (people) are hierarchical. You don't love your neighbor the way you do your sister, and you may not love sis the way you love your kids. When it come to food, if you are rational (she would call it selfish) you give what food you have to the kids first. If any is left, it goes to Connie. Any more, your neightbor gets it. The neighbor doesn't get it beore the kids. That actually makes perfect sense. The reason it's an important part of her philosophy is that in many philosophies, such as some religions, you put god before anything. (Like the muslims who give up their own lives for some belief.) I know some catholic perishes insist that you tithe, even if you can't afford it. I'm not that keen on spelling things out, so I hope it makes sense. Wouldn't you give food to the kids before you gave to the neighbors. I forgot you have a husband. Feed him at some point, too, okay?

Rand, being borne in Russian, where the state took first place, obviously felt strongly that the state and anyone else could kiss her patootee. As far as she was concerned, you don't owe anyone anything unless you feel like it. I happen to agree. (Understand that taking care of a sick relative is something you would want to do. Her view was, if you don't, don't do it.)

Now, as to when Rand dies, the world ends, put that down to a bit of a silly remark. She meant that when a person dies, the world is dead for that person.

If you feel like it, continue reading. She really does have good ideas, but sometimes she confuses them with words. Like to her, selfish is a good thing. It is the way she means it, but a lot of people use the word differently. Don't let her confuse.

Out of curiousity (you don't need to answer), how would you handle the food scenario.

[Cathy]

Cathy, I haven't hear the expression 'sucked the life out of' in relation to Rand, but I can't totally argue. Yeah, she was a force. Yeah, she could suck the life out of a few - Peikoff? The man's a shell. But that was her. She was brilliant and gave people some great books and a philosophy, if you can separate it from her personal views, that is fantantic. You don't need to agree, but a lot of people do.

Now, your questions: A person giving food to husband and not neightbor's husband. That was actually one of her best stuff and covers a lot. What she's saying is values (people) are hierarchical. You don't love your neighbor the way you do your sister, and you may not love sis the way you love your kids. When it come to food, if you are rational (she would call it selfish) you give what food you have to the kids first. If any is left, it goes to Connie. Any more, your neightbor gets it. The neighbor doesn't get it beore the kids. That actually makes perfect sense. The reason it's an important part of her philosophy is that in many philosophies, such as some religions, you put god before anything. (Like the muslims who give up their own lives for some belief.) I know some catholic perishes insist that you tithe, even if you can't afford it. I'm not that keen on spelling things out, so I hope it makes sense. Wouldn't you give food to the kids before you gave to the neighbors. I forgot you have a husband. Feed him at some point, too, okay?

Rand, being borne in Russian, where the state took first place, obviously felt strongly that the state and anyone else could kiss her patootee. As far as she was concerned, you don't owe anyone anything unless you feel like it. I happen to agree. (Understand that taking care of a sick relative is something you would want to do. Her view was, if you don't, don't do it.)

Now, as to when Rand dies, the world ends, put that down to a bit of a silly remark. She meant that when a person dies, the world is dead for that person.

If you feel like it, continue reading. She really does have good ideas, but sometimes she confuses them with words. Like to her, selfish is a good thing. It is the way she means it, but a lot of people use the word differently. Don't let her confuse.

Out of curiousity (you don't need to answer), how would you handle the food scenario.

Thank you Ginny, I understand and agree (about the food). I would feed my kids first then my husband, then myself...but if there was any left (and I would try to have some left) I would feed my starving neighbors. I do understand she came from a terrible time in a terrible country, and probably brought a lot of good ideas to our country, but her ideas aren't the only good ideas in the world as she would think. It does bother me that she had an affair with Branden, and he was only eighteen right? She was in her forties? Then when he couldn't be manipulated anymore, she tried to ruin him and saying he did immoral things (without saying they had an affair). Really who was the one who was immoral? If Uncle Frank did drink a lot I can see why. Just like Uncle Frank wanted children...but it wouldn't fit in with "Ayn"...he didn't like New York, but she wanted to live there, and of course they did. I don't think she took his feelings into account for anything...only hers. Uncle Frank and my father were very gentle laid back people who didn't feed into drama, their views and beliefs were not as important to them as keeping peace in their home. I don't think Aunt Alice cared about anything outside her own little world and the people who she could control in it...because there she was her own little God. I'm happy that I only knew Aunt Alice, because I can be impartial to Ayn Rand, who I didn't know...

Thanks Ginny ~Cathy~

Hope you had a great birthday!

[Ellen Stuttle]

I looked neither at OL nor at my email all day yesterday. Some work being done on our property, and after the workmen left, I went to bed and practically slept through the night.

Meanwhile, turns out that Cathy's aunt Marna is still alive, age 85. Cathy has spoken with her, and Marna remembers Cathy.

Apparently the death notice is for someone else in the family.

I haven't caught up with the details.

Ellen

[PDS]

This site was started with Ayn Rand's philosophy in mind. I would like to know why so may people still follow her today. I have been reading some of her beliefs, and so far I don't agree. I know I am only in the beginning and there is much, much more, but just the simplest points I just don't believe in. She said if there was only enough food to feed your husband...you wouldn't give the food to the neighbors husband...had to laugh about that one...I think if his name was Branden she would! She said she is Atheist, and when asked, where will she go when she dies...she said she wont die but the world will die...please explain that one. I believe she had a great mind, and convinced everyone else she did to, and when I get further into her philosophy I may agree on some of her views...but as of now these two things bothered me. As I look back now, and remembering the Aunt Alice I knew, she sucked the life out of Uncle Frank...he didn't stand a chance...I don't think anybody else did either.

Cathy:

I think if you read The Fountainhead you would pretty much be able to figure out why so many people hold a special place in their hearts for Ayn Rand.

But that is not the same thing as "follow[ing] her." There are followers, I suppose, but one doesn't exactly run into them on the street all that often.

Objectivism as a philosophy is not for the faint-hearted. It is a difficult philosophy to understand, and a harder one to apply in many instances, especially with the barrage of things that come one's way day in and day out. And, it is about as counter-cultural as a philosophy can be.

And finally, it is, in its current state, like a sculpture that is only about 60-70% complete, i.e., after you stare pretty hard at it, you can see something incredible underneath a lot of unfinished material. You know the sculptor had a ton of once-in-a-century genius and a great idea in mind, but it's as though she ran of time, and people who probably would have been better off as dentists tried to complete the work. That is what I will always find sad about Objectivism.

[Brant Gaede]

This site was started with Ayn Rand's philosophy in mind. I would like to know why so may people still follow her today. I have been reading some of her beliefs, and so far I don't agree. I know I am only in the beginning and there is much, much more, but just the simplest points I just don't believe in. She said if there was only enough food to feed your husband...you wouldn't give the food to the neighbors husband...had to laugh about that one...I think if his name was Branden she would! She said she is Atheist, and when asked, where will she go when she dies...she said she wont die but the world will die...please explain that one. I believe she had a great mind, and convinced everyone else she did to, and when I get further into her philosophy I may agree on some of her views...but as of now these two things bothered me. As I look back now, and remembering the Aunt Alice I knew, she sucked the life out of Uncle Frank...he didn't stand a chance...I don't think anybody else did either.

You're unique motivation to reading Rand and about her is resulting in an approach and consequences that tend to indigestion. It's fairly obvious that without the familial connection you'd never read her or soon give up on it. That's just the way it is. She and her sister bounced off each other, for example, so don't be distressed if you do too.

--Brant

[Cathy]

This site was started with Ayn Rand's philosophy in mind. I would like to know why so may people still follow her today. I have been reading some of her beliefs, and so far I don't agree. I know I am only in the beginning and there is much, much more, but just the simplest points I just don't believe in. She said if there was only enough food to feed your husband...you wouldn't give the food to the neighbors husband...had to laugh about that one...I think if his name was Branden she would! She said she is Atheist, and when asked, where will she go when she dies...she said she wont die but the world will die...please explain that one. I believe she had a great mind, and convinced everyone else she did to, and when I get further into her philosophy I may agree on some of her views...but as of now these two things bothered me. As I look back now, and remembering the Aunt Alice I knew, she sucked the life out of Uncle Frank...he didn't stand a chance...I don't think anybody else did either.

Cathy:

I think if you read The Fountainhead you would pretty much be able to figure out why so many people hold a special place in their hearts for Ayn Rand.

But that is not the same thing as "follow[ing] her." There are followers, I suppose, but one doesn't exactly run into them on the street all that often.

Objectivism as a philosophy is not for the faint-hearted. It is a difficult philosophy to understand, and a harder one to apply in many instances, especially with the barrage of things that come one's way day in and day out. And, it is about as counter-cultural as a philosophy can be.

And finally, it is, in its current state, like a sculpture that is only about 60-70% complete, i.e., after you stare pretty hard at it, you can see something incredible underneath a lot of unfinished material. You know the sculptor had a ton of once-in-a-century genius and a great idea in mind, but it's as though she ran of time, and people who probably would have been better off as dentists tried to complete the work. That is what I will always find sad about Objectivism.

Thanks PDS...I am more determined to understand it now. She had a lot of people convinced into her idealisms, so I am going to try and make a true effort in understanding them. Gosh...I feel like I'm back in school again...but who knows, I may learn something valuable from it all...hope so. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

This site was started with Ayn Rand's philosophy in mind. I would like to know why so may people still follow her today. I have been reading some of her beliefs, and so far I don't agree. I know I am only in the beginning and there is much, much more, but just the simplest points I just don't believe in. She said if there was only enough food to feed your husband...you wouldn't give the food to the neighbors husband...had to laugh about that one...I think if his name was Branden she would! She said she is Atheist, and when asked, where will she go when she dies...she said she wont die but the world will die...please explain that one. I believe she had a great mind, and convinced everyone else she did to, and when I get further into her philosophy I may agree on some of her views...but as of now these two things bothered me. As I look back now, and remembering the Aunt Alice I knew, she sucked the life out of Uncle Frank...he didn't stand a chance...I don't think anybody else did either.

You're unique motivation to reading Rand and about her is resulting in an approach and consequences that tend to indigestion. It's fairly obvious that without the familial connection you'd never read her or soon give up on it. That's just the way it is. She and her sister bounced off each other, for example, so don't be distressed if you do too.

--Brant

Thanks Brant...But I'm going to give it a good chance and go into it with an open mind. I am never to old to learn...thank God I have a dictionary! ~Cathy~

[ginny]

Cathy, I'm not sure which books you're reading. This is just a suggestion, but have you considered her first fiction book, We The Living. I recommend that for several reasons. It was written without the dogma that's in her other books. It's bitter and angry, sure, but it's a breathtaking story of a young girl, the girl she herself was. The writing is so beautiful, and the story is wonderful. And what the hell, it's got two great hunky guys. What else do you what? The book might give you an idea of what she was like younger. (No, she was no Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm even then.)

Anyway, just an idea. I think it's great you're trying to get some understanding. BTW, how's Connie handlinng this.

[Cathy]

I have been receiving help in locating lost/forgotten O'Connor family members since February from Tom Nelson who is a retired social security administrator. The Marna Papurt Wolfe who's find a grave memorial was wrong. He usually isn't wrong but this time he was. Which this was good for me because he doubled check and she is living and well. I talked to her yesterday. She is eighty five years old, very sharp in her mind and works two days a week. We talked for three hours. She is my Aunt Agnes's daughter so she is my first cousin. Her voice sounds like Aunt Agnes and I liked her right away. She remembered us and asked about Conny without me mentioning her name. Aunt Agnes use to visit them and told her all the gossip, so Marna was aware how me and my sister were treated by our step mother. She was also told of the argument Aunt Agnes and my step mother got into. She said she never knew what happened to us and always wondered about us. She also mentioned us (Conny and me) to the Ayn Rand institute when she was being interviewed. Uncle Frank died a little over a year before my father. Marna told me they called Aunt Alice and told her of my father's passing. Aunt Alice wrote them a note, thanking them of still remembering her as family, but she did not attend my father's funeral or send flowers. This is one reason why I thought they were all dead. Marna also knew about the affair around the same time we did, Marna confronted Aunt Alice about it, Aunt Alice told her...I wouldn't do that to your Uncle Frank. But we all know she did. Marna lives in a suburb of Chicago which is only two and half hours away. We made plans to meet in a few weeks so I can take her to dinner. I don't know how long I will have her, but I will make sure she is ALWAYS ok...I am not going to let time slip away again. Tom also found out about my Aunt Margaret, she died when she was twenty five...I don't know how yet, that's a question I will ask Marna. I have learned so many things about my family in 2-3 weeks being on this forum from all of you, in different ways. Even though you only want to know about Ayn and her philosophy, being in a family for fifty years and from her beginnings are the building blocks for the foundation of her philosophy. Maybe through all this, I will be able to understand her ideas and find out how truly remarkable she really was ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Cathy, I'm not sure which books you're reading. This is just a suggestion, but have you considered her first fiction book, We The Living. I recommend that for several reasons. It was written without the dogma that's in her other books. It's bitter and angry, sure, but it's a breathtaking story of a young girl, the girl she herself was. The writing is so beautiful, and the story is wonderful. And what the hell, it's got two great hunky guys. What else do you what? The book might give you an idea of what she was like younger. (No, she was no Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm even then.)

Anyway, just an idea. I think it's great you're trying to get some understanding. BTW, how's Connie handling this.

HI Ginny...I have been reading letters of Ayn Rand and also watched the movie Sense of Life. Conny is not participating. She does not want to remember or talk about it. she says she wants to remember the things in life where she was happy happy happy!(her words). So that means she is not listening to me. I did call her after I talked to Marna and she seemed interested... but as of right now I stopped talking to her about this subject. I will get that book... two other movies came that I ordered, but I haven't had a chance to watch them yet...oh, and she wont watch none of the movies ~Cathy~

[ginny]

So great that you actually found Marna! You'll probably find out more stuff from her. Sorry to hear about Connie, but you need to do what is right for you. (That's one of Ayn's big rules!!) Are your kids interested in your search. Do they have any feelings about having a crazy and famous relative?

[Cathy]

So great that you actually found Marna! You'll probably find out more stuff from her. Sorry to hear about Connie, but you need to do what is right for you. (That's one of Ayn's big rules!!) Are your kids interested in your search. Do they have any feelings about having a crazy and famous relative?

Yes, I couldn't believe she was still living...What I have learned through this is to not give up, that it is never to late! Kristen my 25 year old is the one who started with finding out about my family. She has 2 little babies and wanted to know for them. Yes, she says its awesome! She thinks its really great that Marna is 85 and we found her. Kristen is really the only one who cares like I do...other than my husband. Well at least me and "Ayn" have something we can agree upon...I am doing what I think is right for me...and no matter all the different emotions I have went through about all this, in the end...when I find out everything...I'll be a better person because of it all. Understanding I believe is the key to everything ~Cathy~

[Jonathan]

I think that the title of this thread should be changed again, this time to "Frank's Niece!"

J

[ginny]

Frank's Niece! Yeah. You and the terror from Russia may have more in common than you think. I hope you stick around. It's interesting, if not always flattering, to see how Objectivists may appear to outsiders. Anyway, all of us nasty atheists hope you keep hanging out.

[Cathy]

I think that the title of this thread should be changed again, this time to "Frank's Niece!"

J

LOL ; )

[Cathy]

Frank's Niece! Yeah. You and the terror from Russia may have more in common than you think. I hope you stick around. It's interesting, if not always flattering, to see how Objectivists may appear to outsiders. Anyway, all of us nasty atheists hope you keep hanging out.

LOL...who knows, subconsciously I may have learned something off of her after all.