Frank's Niece!

[Cathy]

whoever is interested, I went an seen my 85 yr old cousin Marna yesterday. We had a great time! Also put flowers on my Aunt Agnes's grave. We talked about Aunt Alice (Ayn) and Uncle Frank a lot. We talked about how Aunt Alice use to dress...not like you see her in her interviews...but how she really dresses...brown men's sock with black paten leather shoes. How she would correct everyone grammar and slang, and it would be funny from someone with such a thick accent. Marna (Doc) also talked about my grandfather who I never knew because he died before I was born. Meet my 2nd cousin (Marna's son) Mark, and he looks just like my son...except much older. I was surprised to see so much family resemble. Marna said we were never told about Aunt Alice being Ayn Rand because of her being atheist and her other beliefs. My father wanted us to grow up to form our own beliefs and not be influenced. Marna gave me some pictures and I now know the church in Lorain Ohio where my father, Uncle Frank and the rest of his siblings were baptized at. I learned a lot about my family...to much to write about. I am still angry over some things, but I am trying to work through all that. My sister did ask some questions...and maybe next time I can get her to go with me. I hear that "Ayn Rand" had some good ideas, and I am learning about them. But I still like Aunt Alice better...the aunt that wasn't so smart about common everyday things, who would wear mixed matched clothes, who would try to mimic and American actor, with a Russian accent. One time I had a toy dog that ran on batteries, but the dog would walk backwards. Aunt Alice told me I had the batteries in backwards and that's why the dog was walking backwards lol. ~Cathy~

[ginny]

Welcome back. What a time you had! Keep on working through the info and share with us. You might just come to like Ayn Rand. No one's perfect - how about your family not telling you who your famous aunt was! Is your daughter still excited. Do people know you're the niece of a famous writer/philosopher? When you got it, flaunt it. Start bragging.

I'm trying to picture the goddess in her mismatched woolen socks. The Brandens (one or both) did write that when at home, she was a mess with safety pins holding her together. Yet in public, she wore designed suits. So many sides to her.

[Cathy]

Welcome back. What a time you had! Keep on working through the info and share with us. You might just come to like Ayn Rand. No one's perfect - how about your family not telling you who your famous aunt was! Is your daughter still excited. Do people know you're the niece of a famous writer/philosopher? When you got it, flaunt it. Start bragging.

I'm trying to picture the goddess in her mismatched woolen socks. The Brandens (one or both) did write that when at home, she was a mess with safety pins holding her together. Yet in public, she wore designed suits. So many sides to her.

Thank you Ginny. Yes, the time we spent there was packed full, we didn't get home until 2 am, but it all was well worth it. hope one day soon I will be able to see Aunt Alice and Ayn Rand as the same person, right now tho its hard to do and that might be because of all the anger over it. Yes my daughter is still excited, she called me while we were there to hear the gossip (just like my Aunt Agnes)! Yes, Aunt Alice (with family) and Ayn Rand (in interviews) are two very drastically different people. But what's funny is Uncle Frank was always the same. He was the one who was very neat. Uncle Frank was vain about himself...Aunt Alice, not so much! ~Cathy~

[ginny]

Uncle Frank was a born gentleman. It came naturally to him. I think Ayn had to work at being a proper lady. Probably the reason all of her heroines were beautiful and well-dressed.

[Selene]

Ginny:

We all have many, many sides. I am always amazed at how we think that each of our joyous selves, emotional selves, intense selves, neat and sloppy selves, nasty/bitchy selves and heroic selves do not exist in "the other people" we see and know.

I always start somewhere in my introductory conversations with client(s) who, believe to their core, that their particular fact pattern is sooo unique, or, sooo complicated, or, horrible, that they don't even make the top 100 of my past cases.

Moreover, I mention that, if, they could take the roofs off a random ten (10) houses, apartments, or, tents (have had some unique clients in the past) within a ten (10) mile radius of where you live, and, observed the behavior below for two (2), you would realize how your issues are larger than some and minuscule to others. [i am sure that I just typed a grammatical nightmare]

I guess we have to admit that we are all humans now!

A...

[ginny]

Rand! Human! Go the corner. And of course you're right.

[Selene]

Lol ...

Thanks Ginny:

Well as a :

radical libertarian;

right wing anarchist;

small "o"jectivist;

descendant of Northern Italian lineage; and

a Dom,

I don't do well in corners.

A...

[Cathy]

Uncle Frank was a born gentleman. It came naturally to him. I think Ayn had to work at being a proper lady. Probably the reason all of her heroines were beautiful and well-dressed.

She was living through them lol!

[ginny]

Funny you should say that. I've suspected that for years. She was totally obsessed with beauty. Unfortunately, she wasn't that beautiful. So her heroines became her fantasy. It fits with Allan Blumenthal's remark that she wrote her books to figure herself out.

All of her fiction points to that. Each of her heroines was pursued by a number of men. The men, of course, didn't have any other women except for her and lived the life of monks. In her fantasy, she got it all.

[ginny]

Selene, what's a Dom?

[Cathy]

Funny you should say that. I've suspected that for years. She was totally obsessed with beauty. Unfortunately, she wasn't that beautiful. So her heroines became her fantasy. It fits with Allan Blumenthal's remark that she wrote her books to figure herself out.

All of her fiction points to that. Each of her heroines was pursued by a number of men. The men, of course, didn't have any other women except for her and lived the life of monks. In her fantasy, she got it all.

I wonder if she ever did figure herself out...I don't think anyone else has least of all me! Its seems like in her real world she got it all to.

[Selene]

Selene, what's a Dom?

Briefly, if refers to D/s relationships, wherein one individual is Dominant, and, one individual is submissive. It is premised on several concepts, for example:

1) safe, sane and consensual agreements and actions and;

2) a voluntary total exchange of power [TPE];

In my opinion, Ayn was a submissive in a few specific areas, as was Dominique and Dagny.

I can remember my first impression of her eyes when I was what sixteen, or, seventeen and I saw a powerful mind, and, yet, a little girl with incredible passion.

One of the authors commented about how she was terrified of crossing the street and needed Frank to hold onto and guide her. There are many other "testimonial narratives" that allude to that type of behavior in her.

A...

[ginny]

Yeah, the whole man-worship thing is pretty much submissive.

Thanks for the explanation, Dom. I say this with a whisper and bowed head.

[Selene]

Yeah, the whole man-worship thing is pretty much submissive.

Thanks for the explanation, Dom. I say this with a whisper and bowed head.

Such a good girl! lol.

Strokes hair gently.

Actually the male submissive is the largest percentage out in this community.

Next would be the female submissive.

Then the Dominatrix.

Then the switch.

The male Dom who is not a pretender is rare.

A...

[ginny]

Sounds like role playing. Personally, I never cared to be a Dominatrix. I wanted to be an indian princess. Give me a bow and arrow, and I will rule the world. What's a switch? Someone who switches between dom and sub? Jesus, make up your mind.

[Ellen Stuttle]

Hi, Cathy, welcome back.

I thought of you Sunday and wondered how things were going in your meeting with Marna. Before that, on Friday when I heard about the second tornado in Oklahoma, among multiple other concerns, I hoped that the storm's eastward voyage wouldn't mess up your scheduled trip. I suppose the storm had passed your area by Sunday. It got here late Sunday night.

Where is your Aunt Agnes buried that you visited her grave?

Did you happen to ask Marna if she knew anything pertaining to Aunt Alice's visiting your mother's house in the '60s? Also if Marna indeed was living in NYC during the '50s?

I suppose you have loads to sort out. I'd like to hear anything you feel like sharing. And I'm glad the visit went well.

Ellen

[Cathy]

Hi, Cathy, welcome back.

I thought of you Sunday and wondered how things were going in your meeting with Marna. Before that, on Friday when I heard about the second tornado in Oklahoma, among multiple other concerns, I hoped that the storm's eastward voyage wouldn't mess up your scheduled trip. I suppose the storm had passed your area by Sunday. It got here late Sunday night.

Where is your Aunt Agnes buried that you visited her grave?

Did you happen to ask Marna if she knew anything pertaining to Aunt Alice's visiting your mother's house in the '60s? Also if Marna indeed was living in NYC during the '50s?

I suppose you have loads to sort out. I'd like to hear anything you feel like sharing. And I'm glad the visit went well.

Ellen

Thanks Ellen, Yes, the visit went great and talked to her again tonight on the phone. My aunt Agnes is buried down the street where Marna lives at, in Arlington Heights. She is buried by Mimi and Mimi's husband David. The cemetery started burying babies behind Aunt Agnes...how appropriate for sure. Marna was living in N.Y in the early 50's. When she was there before the 50's Uncle Frank and Aunt Alice lived in California...but they would go to N.Y. a lot. Marna seen them several times. Marna said I have Aunt Agnes's eyes. Yes we did talk about Aunt Alice coming to Ohio in the 60's...but Marna wouldn't have known if they did. I know Aunt Alice was there. Marna knows that they seen us, she just doesn't know when. Marna seen us when we were 3 at a family wedding,(I believe Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank was there also) then we went to Chicago when we were older and visited her and Aunt Agnes...this was in the 60's also. My dad was Connie's(Marna's sister) favorite uncle, Marna's was Uncle Nick. Mine of course was Uncle Frank because he was the only uncle I had left. Once I seen Marna, she does look familiar to me...I just cant place her in my memory yet at where she looks familiar from. I just cant believe how much my son looks like her son...even his mannerisms. I haven't had much sleep, Ill probably will remember more tomorrow and write more. It didn't rain while we were there, but it was cloudy, grey and cold. I wish the weather would have been nicer because we didn't stay to long at the grave site, I didn't want Marna to get/catch a cold. I am planning on another visit sometime in Aug, and hopefully my sister will go this time. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

By the time I was born, there were only four siblings left of the O'Connor's, Frank, Bill (John) Agnes and Bess (Elizabeth). We didn't see Bess much, none of them liked her husband. They would stop in very seldom and only on their way through from somewhere else. I remember on visiting days (weekends) with my dad, we would see more of the relatives than when he was married to my step mother. No one in the family liked her either. I remember now with Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank would visit when my dad wasn't married and we were there on visitation. I don't know why I didn't remember us going to my dad's on weekends when we lived with my mother. The 2 times I had forgotten where the visits took place...it was at my dad's through visitation. These 2 visits would have been in the years of 62-66. After seeing Marna, I remember so many more things. I remember Uncle Frank trying to teach us to tie our shoes and Aunt Alice said...don't do the bunny ears, if your going to teach them teach them the right way...this was at my dad's on visitation weekend. ~Cathy~

[Selene]

By the time I was born, there were only four siblings left of the O'Connor's, Frank, Bill (John) Agnes and Bess (Elizabeth). We didn't see Bess much, none of them liked her husband. They would stop in very seldom and only on their way through from somewhere else. I remember on visiting days (weekends) with my dad, we would see more of the relatives than when he was married to my step mother. No one in the family liked her either. I remember now with Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank would visit when my dad wasn't married and we were there on visitation. I don't know why I didn't remember us going to my dad's on weekends when we lived with my mother. The 2 times I had forgotten where the visits took place...it was at my dad's through visitation. These 2 visits would have been in the years of 62-66. After seeing Marna, I remember so many more things. I remember Uncle Frank trying to teach us to tie our shoes and Aunt Alice said...don't do the bunny ears, if your going to teach them teach them the right way...this was at my dad's on visitation weekend. ~Cathy~

Cathy:

Fascinating what is discovered when you probe your memories, good and bad.

This rings true to me. As a divorce and family mediator, the "visitation" weekends can stand out sharply in a child's mind.

I was going to IM you and thank you for your courage and consistency in providing us with a window to "see" Ayn through a child's eye.

Thank you, you are a courageous individual.

A...

[Cathy]

By the time I was born, there were only four siblings left of the O'Connor's, Frank, Bill (John) Agnes and Bess (Elizabeth). We didn't see Bess much, none of them liked her husband. They would stop in very seldom and only on their way through from somewhere else. I remember on visiting days (weekends) with my dad, we would see more of the relatives than when he was married to my step mother. No one in the family liked her either. I remember now with Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank would visit when my dad wasn't married and we were there on visitation. I don't know why I didn't remember us going to my dad's on weekends when we lived with my mother. The 2 times I had forgotten where the visits took place...it was at my dad's through visitation. These 2 visits would have been in the years of 62-66. After seeing Marna, I remember so many more things. I remember Uncle Frank trying to teach us to tie our shoes and Aunt Alice said...don't do the bunny ears, if your going to teach them teach them the right way...this was at my dad's on visitation weekend. ~Cathy~

Cathy:

Fascinating what is discovered when you probe your memories, good and bad.

This rings true to me. As a divorce and family mediator, the "visitation" weekends can stand out sharply in a child's mind.

I was going to IM you and thank you for your courage and consistency in providing us with a window to "see" Ayn through a child's eye.

Thank you, you are a courageous individual.

A...

Thank you Selene...I don't know about courageous, mostly I've been sad and angry. Sad because all my cousin's could have been my parents, my parents could have been my grandparents...I just feel cheated. Then all that makes me angry on so may different levels. Mostly I am angry that we were born so late and missed out on so much. The thing that gets me the most is not knowing the truth about Aunt Alice, and I am wondering what else was kept from us. I do have good memories about all of them (except my step mother) and if I think about each one of my relatives(O'Connor's), each of them were so good in so many ways. As I look back now, its sad that Uncle Frank didn't have children, he would have been a great father. Aunt Alice...in her own way would have been a great mother to...just more strict than Uncle Frank. My uncle and my dad had so much patience, they were kind and caring people...that all makes me sad thinking about that. When your little, you think they will be here forever. I have blocked out so much, that they all seemed like a dream at first. Now with all these memories keep coming back, they were real and they did live, and at some point they made an impression on my life and as I'm finding out, they made am impression on other people's lives to, but in a different way. Its weird, but I remember uncle Frank's hands as he was teaching us to tie our shoes, Aunt Alice and Aunt Agnes's laugh...those are very good memories for me. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

I wanted to let people know I started to read the Foutainhead. There is a part in Aunt Alice's introduction of the 25th anniversary that has me kind of upset. She says, THIS IS ONE OF THE CARDINAL REASONS OF THE FOUNTAINHEAD'S LASTING APPEAL: IT IS A CONFORMATION OF THE SPIRIT OF YOUTH, PROCLAIMING MAN'S GLORY, SHOWING HOW MUCH IS POSSIBLE. IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT ONLY A FEW IN EACH GENERATION WILL GRASP AND ACHEIVE THE FULL REALITY OF MAN'S PROPER STATUE-AND THAT THE REST WILL BETRAY IT. IT IS THOSE FEW THAT MOVE THE WORLD AND GIVE LIFE ITS MEANING-AND IT IS THOSE FEW THAT I HAVE ALWAYS SOUGHT TO ADDRESS. THE REST ARE NO CONCERN OF MINE; IT IS NOT ME OR THE FOUNTAINHEAD THAT THEY WILL BETRAY; IT IS THEIR OWN SOULS. These words just let me know that me and my sister weren't smart enough or talented enough for her to be concerned with our future! I feel we were throw away children to her and I hate her for it!!!!!! She needed to learn to practice what she speaks! I would just like to know what made Nathianl Branden and Lenard Peikoff so important to her (I know what made Branded important) but Piekoff????? What about Mimi and Marna???? You tell me if I am reading this wrong? At least Mimi and Marna knew who Aunt Alice really was. We weren't even good enough to know that! I'm glad I didn't know about who she really was....otherwise reading this could have made my adult life a lot different. Sometimes I wish I didn't find out who this Ayn Rand really was, now I believe Aunt Alice was a fake!!!! My Uncle Frank was to good of a man for her...I use to love her...she talks about betrayal...

[ginny]

Cathy, don't let it bother you. Rand had this thing about 'perfect' people. The fact that no one is perfect is irrelevant. It's her bleeping fantasy so there will be perfect people. That's what she means by those that are 'of concern' to her. When the only person left was The Peik, she may have, on her deathbed, arrived at the conclusion that her idea of perfection is in her own mind only, and she herself was far from it in many cases.

BTW, if you think that's bad, Peikoff, in one of his lectures, said that he could never fully trust anyone over 18 who was not an Objectivist because at a later age, people's minds are filled with all kinds of crap. Basically, you're just too old, honey.

Read the Fountainhead. It's interesting and you'll have lots of questions. BTW - why didn't you start with We The Living? It is SOOOOOOOO much more human. She hadn't gone over the top when she wrote it.

[Cathy]

Ginny, I didn't know which one to read. I have letters of Ayn Rand and read some of them, then I was trying to understand her philosophy, and now the Fountainhead. So much! I guess I am over 3o years to late on much of it. I just think in my own way that Aunt Alice was HUMAN, Ayn Rand to me only thought about herself and what was good for her...when I learn everything about Ayn Rand...I hope I'm wrong. I think I am putting to much on a personal level. I am still angry over the fact they just let us waste away in foster care and never looked for us. I am angry at all of them...I guess it was easier to turn a blind eye than to make any effort toward us. I never asked to have this family...if that is what I should call them. ~Cathy~

[Selene]

Cathy:

Ayn had parents also. Apparently her mother was not a person who nurtured her at all.

You are a survivor. You seem to have a loving husband and friend. You seem to be a great person to me.

A...

[Cathy]

Cathy:

Ayn had parents also. Apparently her mother was not a person who nurtured her at all.

You are a survivor. You seem to have a loving husband and friend. You seem to be a great person to me.

A...

Thank you Selene, yes, my husband is a good guy...he has been there through thick and thin. If I am a good person, which I try to be...its because of my children's mamaw and papaw. They are the ones who helped me along the way. I convert over to their religion because they were such good people and I have never regretted it. Papaw died the day I was visiting Marna. They taught me what great grandparents are...and hopefully I am half of a grandmother to mine. I may have been nurtured by my mother till I was eight and then off and on by my aunts...but Aunt Alice did nurture us, she would brush our hair, she would hug us, and play games with us. I think "Ayn" was the righteous, dysfunctional, self centered side of her. When I read things she wrote or about her life...this is not the side I grew up with. She was funny and would laugh, and was a mess all at the same time. She was not so cynical and mean almost. She even let me take a smoke off her cigarette with that plastic thing on it. I waved it around like I was a movie star and would say, darling will you be a dear and light my cigarette and we would laugh and laugh. She did tell me never to smoke, it was all just in fun. But then again, I do believe that she would have expected a lot more out of us older than younger. I just get more and more confused about her (sigh). ~Cathy~