ginny Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 And you're confusing the hell out of us. I'm not sure how many people can picture her brushing a child's hair and playing games with that child. Boggles my mind, but I always have been kind of hard on her. Seems the more you get angry with her, the more I'm starting to like her, sort of.Lots of words have been written about how Rand refused to stop smoke. Most people just think she didn't know the dangers. Interesting that she should have told you not to smoke. Damn, starting to like her her less again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 And you're confusing the hell out of us. I'm not sure how many people can picture her brushing a child's hair and playing games with that child. Boggles my mind, but I always have been kind of hard on her. Seems the more you get angry with her, the more I'm starting to like her, sort of.Lots of words have been written about how Rand refused to stop smoke. Most people just think she didn't know the dangers. Interesting that she should have told you not to smoke. Damn, starting to like her her less again. I don't want you to dislike her....as Aunt Alice, she was pretty cool. She told us not to smoke and would sing that song...Winston taste bad like the one I just had, no filter no flavor taste like a roll of toilet paper. Then she would make a face like the cigarette was yucky. Its funny, I just remember that just now. If you liked Ayn Rand, you would have really liked Aunt Alice. I am remembering so much more...it just amazes me! ~Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginny Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Cathy, nothing you've said has made me dislike Ayn, don't worry. As I said, quite the opposite. As much as I do respect the things she advocated, my problems with her started the first night of my first lecture. Keep remembering. I'll try and imagine her singing to a little girl about the evil's of smoking. You don't know the depth of her influence among some people when it comes to smoking. Barbara tells a tale (and others, I believe) that one of the group member's wife was interrogated (kind of like you were here) because she didn't smoke. An answer as to WHY she didn't smoke was demanded. I mean, shit, how two-faced was this woman? Sorry but it pisses me off. Anyway, do ask questions while reading. I think you might have a lot. The characters in Fountainhead are Super-Rand. Or, as she stated, one character is her in a bad mood. Let's try and keep that picture in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Cathy:You will probably remember a lot more "snapshots" as you explore. Remember, just like every human, she was complex. I always explain to folks, as I suggest they read Atlas, that they will love the book and like all great thinkers, Ayn had clay feet.She was a human. A beautiful person to my mind. However, I never bought into the cult part of her appeal, so I could see her clearer.A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Ah the savage predatoress[that may be a new word] Dominique Francon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Cathy, nothing you've said has made me dislike Ayn, don't worry. As I said, quite the opposite. As much as I do respect the things she advocated, my problems with her started the first night of my first lecture. Keep remembering. I'll try and imagine her singing to a little girl about the evil's of smoking. You don't know the depth of her influence among some people when it comes to smoking. Barbara tells a tale (and others, I believe) that one of the group member's wife was interrogated (kind of like you were here) because she didn't smoke. An answer as to WHY she didn't smoke was demanded. I mean, shit, how two-faced was this woman? Sorry but it pisses me off. Anyway, do ask questions while reading. I think you might have a lot. The characters in Fountainhead are Super-Rand. Or, as she stated, one character is her in a bad mood. Let's try and keep that picture in mind. Ginny, I have a high lighter as I'm reading. I am hoping if I have any questions, someone on here could help me. To me...literally...she was two faced! ~Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Cathy:You will probably remember a lot more "snapshots" as you explore. Remember, just like every human, she was complex. I always explain to folks, as I suggest they read Atlas, that they will love the book and like all great thinkers, Ayn had clay feet.She was a human. A beautiful person to my mind. However, I never bought into the cult part of her appeal, so I could see her clearer.A... Selena, you all know Ayn Rand...this person was diffenanlty not Aunt Alice. I don't know what she was doing...I think as she got more well know, she became Ayn Rand. Remember I was a little girl...when she let me play with her cigarette, I was put up on the counter...I was sitting on the counter...I'm thinking I was five. She was fun...not so harsh as I see in her interviews. Its weird because I have watched some interviews and I know its her...but its not her. See what families do to their children by keeping secretes? I am left at fifty five to figure out what I thought I always knew...that isn't fair for families to do that. I wish things would have been different. ~Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Cathy:Ayn had parents also. Apparently her mother was not a person who nurtured her at all. You are a survivor. You seem to have a loving husband and friend. You seem to be a great person to me.A...I second that ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Cathy:Ayn had parents also. Apparently her mother was not a person who nurtured her at all. You are a survivor. You seem to have a loving husband and friend. You seem to be a great person to me.A...I second that !Thank you Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginny Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 What I like about you is that you're trying to find a way out of the trauma. Your poor sister seems to be hanging on to it for dear life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 What I like about you is that you're trying to find a way out of the trauma. Your poor sister seems to be hanging on to it for dear life.Oh boy!!! That's another story! Sometimes I wonder if we were younger finding out who Aunt Alice really was, if she would have been open to discussing it all. When I was younger and things would get tough, I would just run away. Now that I am older, I am not as afraid of things and will stay and work whatever it is out. My sister is the total opposite. Other than running away from my dad's house (because of my step mother) she never ran away again. I ran ALL the time. Now it seems any little thing that is hard for her in remembering the past she runs (mentally). She gets me so aggravated! If I bring something up from those times she will change the subject. If I press the issue, she gets mad. She started to read this post and got to page 5 and I thought she was coming around and then she remembered about our pictures growing up with our mother that our step mother put in the trash and she stopped...everything. The only time she let me talk to her about any O'Connor family since was about Marna. All she said was, I'm happy you had a nice trip and you came home safely, and I'd like to see a picture of Marna. We could help each other if she would only try. ~Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginny Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Here's one of Ayn's beliefs: You cannot be responsible for how someone else reacts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Here's one of Ayn's beliefs: You cannot be responsible for how someone else reacts. Well that's a good one and certainly true enough...but my sister does get me so mad because who else do I have to remember these things with? Sometimes I think I maybe the abnormal one...I mean their all dead, and I cant change the past. I am just so angry that someone else who I didn't know told me about my aunt, when I should have known all along. I can see why adopted children get mad at their adopted parents for not telling them the truth. The difference is I was born into this family...there just shouldn't have been any secrets.. I really hold my dad responsible...for everything. So now my anger is shifting from my aunts onto my father. God knows I don't want to miss direct my anger. Really, the only one I am not angry with is Uncle Frank. I am just angry with a bunch of ghosts anyway...really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginny Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 More words of wisdom: You can choose to be imprisoned by the past, or you can move on with your life.Someone stop me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 More words of wisdom: You can choose to be imprisoned by the past, or you can move on with your life.Someone stop me!LOL...thanks, you made me laugh!!!! I don't want to be imprisoned by my past. I managed since I was 13 yrs old to forget about it all...and did a very good job. Until someone slipped and since February I have been dealing with it all. I asked Marna if my dad was happy to have us when we were born, she said he was very happy. I am sure we were a mistake, and maybe we were not told about "Ayn" is so we wouldn't inherit. .The reason I say that is because my dad purposely left us out of his will. I am sure my step mother had a part in it...but he was my father. Now... with dealing with what's in front of me, I realize why I chose to forget. I am not bitter about the will or I should say not getting "anything" it was more of the fact that he stated it in his will that Cathy and Conny O'Connor are excluded from my last will and testament. I just remembered about the will today. They ALL left us to fight our way in hell with our step mother, then let us waste away in several foster homes...if that wasn't enough...here comes the will. Hell, I didn't ask him to be my father...no wonder Aunt Agnes always told us not to marry a charming Irishman...they are all sweet talking bums! ~Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 More words of wisdom: You can choose to be imprisoned by the past, or you can move on with your life.Someone stop me!I absolutely will not stop you...I have been mediating/advocating folks for three decades. I am not a complete acceptor of the Landmark Forum, "self awareness" seminars, or, any other "forum fix."However, essentially, there are some real simple rules:1) if it happened in the past, there is absolutely nothing that you can change;2) rule one is the only rule that is valid.OK, now that we have that settled.Let it go.A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginny Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Absolutely. For me, it's been a lifetime battle, so I understand Cathy, but also the futility of it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 More words of wisdom: You can choose to be imprisoned by the past, or you can move on with your life.Someone stop me!I absolutely will not stop you...I have been mediating/advocating folks for three decades. I am not a complete acceptor of the Landmark Forum, "self awareness" seminars, or, any other "forum fix."However, essentially, there are some real simple rules:1) if it happened in the past, there is absolutely nothing that you can change;2) rule one is the only rule that is valid.OK, now that we have that settled.Let it go.A...Selena...I did let it go...it came back! ~Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Absolutely. For me, it's been a lifetime battle, so I understand Cathy, but also the futility of it all.Ginny, what does futility mean? ~Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 More words of wisdom: You can choose to be imprisoned by the past, or you can move on with your life.Someone stop me!I absolutely will not stop you...I have been mediating/advocating folks for three decades. I am not a complete acceptor of the Landmark Forum, "self awareness" seminars, or, any other "forum fix."However, essentially, there are some real simple rules:1) if it happened in the past, there is absolutely nothing that you can change;2) rule one is the only rule that is valid.OK, now that we have that settled.Let it go.A...Selena...I did let it go...it came back! ~Cathy~Cathy:Ok, I understand that response. However, since I have been doing this too long...I refuse to accept it...You, by definition, have not "let it go." That is a serious teaching of your aunt. Cathy, my fellow person that influenced Aunt/Ayn/Actual Person...none of us can change a single statement/act/event that occurred in the past.It can only "come back," if, you allow it the power to come back...A,... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 More words of wisdom: You can choose to be imprisoned by the past, or you can move on with your life.Someone stop me!I absolutely will not stop you...I have been mediating/advocating folks for three decades. I am not a complete acceptor of the Landmark Forum, "self awareness" seminars, or, any other "forum fix."However, essentially, there are some real simple rules:1) if it happened in the past, there is absolutely nothing that you can change;2) rule one is the only rule that is valid.OK, now that we have that settled.Let it go.A...Selena...I did let it go...it came back! ~Cathy~Cathy:Ok, I understand that response. However, since I have been doing this too long...I refuse to accept it...You, by definition, have not "let it go." That is a serious teaching of your aunt. Cathy, my fellow person that influenced Aunt/Ayn/Actual Person...none of us can change a single statement/act/event that occurred in the past.It can only "come back," if, you allow it the power to come back...A,... Selena, they have always had the power. They had the power to tell us the truth, They had the power to not abandon us. They had the power to protect us. Then when all that is left in the past and the O'Connor's didn't exist for us anymore...they came back from the dead, through someone else, just to have the power again. And we, once again are left confused, defenseless, and cheated. Now I opened the door that refuses to close. I am angry and I feel I have every right to be...I don't know what I am looking for...or what else I am going to find out...I wish they were ALL alive so I could tell them to all go to hell...and I could have the last word! .So in the mean time, I am dealing with it all the best way I know how. I cant just let it go...the memories are all back. I am not young anymore and don't have little children to occupy my mind to forget. I am stuck...I lose, they win... ~Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 More words of wisdom: You can choose to be imprisoned by the past, or you can move on with your life.Someone stop me!I absolutely will not stop you...I have been mediating/advocating folks for three decades. I am not a complete acceptor of the Landmark Forum, "self awareness" seminars, or, any other "forum fix."However, essentially, there are some real simple rules:1) if it happened in the past, there is absolutely nothing that you can change;2) rule one is the only rule that is valid.OK, now that we have that settled.Let it go.A...Selena...I did let it go...it came back! ~Cathy~Cathy:Ok, I understand that response. However, since I have been doing this too long...I refuse to accept it...You, by definition, have not "let it go." That is a serious teaching of your aunt. Cathy, my fellow person that influenced Aunt/Ayn/Actual Person...none of us can change a single statement/act/event that occurred in the past.It can only "come back," if, you allow it the power to come back...A,... Selena, they have always had the power. They had the power to tell us the truth, They had the power to not abandon us. They had the power to protect us. Then when all that is left in the past and the O'Connor's didn't exist for us anymore...they came back from the dead, through someone else, just to have the power again. And we, once again are left confused, defenseless, and cheated. Now I opened the door that refuses to close. I am angry and I feel I have every right to be...I don't know what I am looking for...or what else I am going to find out...I wish they were ALL alive so I could tell them to all go to hell...and I could have the last word! .So in the mean time, I am dealing with it all the best way I know how. I cant just let it go...the memories are all back. I am not young anymore and don't have little children to occupy my mind to forget. I am stuck...I lose, they win... ~Cathy~Cathy:...they have always had the power...If your aunt and her philosophy has ever reached back from that void...THEY...have NEVER...had the POWER...unless you give it to them...DO NOT GIVE IT TO THEM...Act on that knowledge...Act on your God's knowledge...Deny "those negative memories/beliefs"...End it today...A...And we, once again are left confused, defenseless, and cheated. Now I opened the door that refuses to close. I am angry and I feel I have every right to be...I don't know what I am looking for...or what else I am going to find out...I wish they were ALL alive so I could tell them to all go to hell...and I could have the last word! .So in the mean time, I am dealing with it all the best way I know how. I cant just let it go...the memories are all back. I am not young anymore and don't have little children to occupy my mind to forget. I am stuck...I lose, they win... ~Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 More words of wisdom: You can choose to be imprisoned by the past, or you can move on with your life.Someone stop me!I absolutely will not stop you...I have been mediating/advocating folks for three decades. I am not a complete acceptor of the Landmark Forum, "self awareness" seminars, or, any other "forum fix."However, essentially, there are some real simple rules:1) if it happened in the past, there is absolutely nothing that you can change;2) rule one is the only rule that is valid.OK, now that we have that settled.Let it go.A...Selena...I did let it go...it came back! ~Cathy~Cathy:Ok, I understand that response. However, since I have been doing this too long...I refuse to accept it...You, by definition, have not "let it go." That is a serious teaching of your aunt. Cathy, my fellow person that influenced Aunt/Ayn/Actual Person...none of us can change a single statement/act/event that occurred in the past.It can only "come back," if, you allow it the power to come back...A,... Selena, they have always had the power. They had the power to tell us the truth, They had the power to not abandon us. They had the power to protect us. Then when all that is left in the past and the O'Connor's didn't exist for us anymore...they came back from the dead, through someone else, just to have the power again. And we, once again are left confused, defenseless, and cheated. Now I opened the door that refuses to close. I am angry and I feel I have every right to be...I don't know what I am looking for...or what else I am going to find out...I wish they were ALL alive so I could tell them to all go to hell...and I could have the last word! .So in the mean time, I am dealing with it all the best way I know how. I cant just let it go...the memories are all back. I am not young anymore and don't have little children to occupy my mind to forget. I am stuck...I lose, they win... ~Cathy~Cathy:...they have always had the power...If your aunt and her philosophy has ever reached back from that void...THEY...have NEVER...had the POWER...unless you give it to them...DO NOT GIVE IT TO THEM...Act on that knowledge...Act on your God's knowledge...Deny "those negative memories/beliefs"...End it today...A...And we, once again are left confused, defenseless, and cheated. Now I opened the door that refuses to close. I am angry and I feel I have every right to be...I don't know what I am looking for...or what else I am going to find out...I wish they were ALL alive so I could tell them to all go to hell...and I could have the last word! .So in the mean time, I am dealing with it all the best way I know how. I cant just let it go...the memories are all back. I am not young anymore and don't have little children to occupy my mind to forget. I am stuck...I lose, they win... ~Cathy~I don't know "Ayn Rand" or her philosophies if they were up front with us, she could have taught us some of them...and maybe I could be the uncaring selfish person I know now that she was...how they all were. I do ask God...why now? I did have it all dead and buried, haven't thought about these people for a life time. All that keeps coming back to me is there is a reason for everything. There is a reason why I found out now instead of 20 years ago, I just don't know what it is yet. I am not very good at explaining things. My step mother was a psychotic, crazy, devil woman, and the only ones who were good to us was my father, aunts and uncle. Now I see that it was all a lie. You don't have to hit, burn or starve someone to hurt them. You can lie, abandon, and let them fend for themselves so you can have a great life...and hurt them just as bad. I didn't know that Aunt Alice was who she was...that's what makes it even harder. My father also...let me count the ways of abandoning us. I am just trying to figure all this out, and maybe it is way over due. I cant keep running from the truth, and burying the past...it has a way of sneaking up on you out of nowhere. I didn't do anything except be born into this family. It should have never happened. Who in their right mind has a baby at 56? And I do believe families do have obligations to one another. A mother, father, grandmother, grand father, aunt, uncle, sister, brother, these are all titles in a family that should mean something! I would never expect from them that I wouldn't expect from myself. There are no secrets, lies, abuse or abandonment in my family. They went against everything I believe in, in a family. I loved them, now I'm not so sure why. ~Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginny Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Cathy, I too grew up with abuse. But the more you hang on to it, the more it breaks you. You said you wished they were alive so you could tell them to go to hell. It's reliving the past until you get the ending you want. I did it for years. The ending is what it is. It's not fair. There is no why. Confused people can cause a lot of misery. The only way out of the cycle is to stop that internal conversation with yourself where you try to change things. Impossible.Sure, the whole gang mistreated you and your sister for whatever reason. But look at what you have, which I doubt they did. You have a family that loves you and who you love. That's pure gold, Cathy. Right now, you're in a statec of shock. But just remember what you have NOW. For what it's worth, this crazy godless gang of nuts is rooting for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Barbara tells a tale (and others, I believe) that one of the group member's wife was interrogated (kind of like you were here) because she didn't smoke. An answer as to WHY she didn't smoke was demanded. I mean, shit, how two-faced was this woman? Sorry but it pisses me off. I've been so busy with dramas of my own, I haven't looked at OL since Sunday. (Monday my husband had an allergy reaction which required a trip to an emergency clinic. Next problem, tracking the source of the mildew which triggered the reaction. Etc.)Along with others, I'm intrigued by Aunt Alice's telling Cathy not to smoke.However, Ginny, I suspect that you're mixing up a couple stories. Rothbard said that one of the people around Rand (I don't recall his naming the person) asked how it was that he, Rothbard, didn't smoke. Rothbard said that he replied that he was allergic to smoke. That's ok, then, was the reported response. But Rothbard made up stuff. I doubt the story is true. For one thing, he prefaced it with a statement about smoking being practically obligatory in Rand's circle. Counter-indicative is that not everyone in Rand's circle smoked. Rothbard also told about an ultimatum being made to him by Nathaniel that he divorce his wife if she didn't disavow Christianity. Nathaniel has denied the story.Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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