Frank's Niece!

[Cathy]

Cathy, I too grew up with abuse. But the more you hang on to it, the more it breaks you. You said you wished they were alive so you could tell them to go to hell. It's reliving the past until you get the ending you want. I did it for years. The ending is what it is. It's not fair. There is no why. Confused people can cause a lot of misery. The only way out of the cycle is to stop that internal conversation with yourself where you try to change things. Impossible.

Sure, the whole gang mistreated you and your sister for whatever reason. But look at what you have, which I doubt they did. You have a family that loves you and who you love. That's pure gold, Cathy. Right now, you're in a statec of shock. But just remember what you have NOW. For what it's worth, this crazy godless gang of nuts is rooting for you.

Thank you Ginny. Some of my kids are just finding out about all of this from my past. I did bury it, then I just had to make a family tree on ancesary.com and then it lead me to all this. My sister said...you might regret opening this can of worms. But its open and as hard as I tried, I couldn't slam that lid back down. I cant help it...all the memories just pour back in my head. I try to think about other things, but then it just triggers another memory. All the memories are good about them up in till they weren't there anymore. Then there was no way out of realizing that they all were just worried about themselves...and I never realized that until lately. I think the memories were always there under the surface... my life was in a downward spiral for a long time. when living at my dads, when me and Conny were eleven we talked and planned our suicide, but never went through it waiting on our mom to get better. Then at fifteen I attempted suicide by cutting my wrist with a razor blade. When that didn't work, I got into drugs. I think it was the drugs that helped me kill the past...instead of killing myself. Nobody but Conny knows any of this, and if we were face to face...I wouldn't be telling you all this. So, with all this coming back to me I get scared again, but I have my husband, kids and grandchildren to keep me straight. I do know what I got. But the memories are here and I have to deal with them. I think down the road I will have a better grip on all this, right now my mind goes wild and memories come back out of the blue. I could be writing on here and another memory will just pop in my head. I know I wouldn't be so confused and angry if Aunt Alice was just a normal everyday person. But finding out who she was and what she stood for and all my family knew it, I get very pissed off. All "Ayn" did was talk the talk...she surely didn't walk the walk! ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Barbara tells a tale (and others, I believe) that one of the group member's wife was interrogated (kind of like you were here) because she didn't smoke. An answer as to WHY she didn't smoke was demanded. I mean, shit, how two-faced was this woman? Sorry but it pisses me off.

I've been so busy with dramas of my own, I haven't looked at OL since Sunday. (Monday my husband had an allergy reaction which required a trip to an emergency clinic. Next problem, tracking the source of the mildew which triggered the reaction. Etc.)

Along with others, I'm intrigued by Aunt Alice's telling Cathy not to smoke.

However, Ginny, I suspect that you're mixing up a couple stories. Rothbard said that one of the people around Rand (I don't recall his naming the person) asked how it was that he, Rothbard, didn't smoke. Rothbard said that he replied that he was allergic to smoke. That's ok, then, was the reported response. But Rothbard made up stuff. I doubt the story is true. For one thing, he prefaced it with a statement about smoking being practically obligatory in Rand's circle. Counter-indicative is that not everyone in Rand's circle smoked. Rothbard also told about an ultimatum being made to him by Nathaniel that he divorce his wife if she didn't disavow Christianity. Nathaniel has denied the story.

Ellen

Ellen, I hope your husband is feeling better ~Cathy~

[Ellen Stuttle]

Cathy,

Thanks for the good wishes about my husband. He is feeling better, but he meanwhile developed a bad cough. We think the mildew source is a bank of English Ivy growing under his study widow. Moldering crud is under the ivy. I'm in process of pulling the ivy out, and we'll be having a plant guy use something to kill the roots.

Meanwhile, I sympathize with your having turmoil coming to grips with your family seeming to forget about you. I'm confused though regarding something I think you said earlier, but maybe I've misremembered. Did you say something about Marna's telling you she'd wondered what had become of you and your sister but wasn't able to track you?

Regarding your Uncle Frank, he was in decline by 1970 and got worse as the decade went on. According to reports from people who were sometimes at the apartment where Frank and Ayn lived, Frank got so he'd forget if he'd eaten or not, and even wouldn't recognize people he knew.

Ellen

[ginny]

Right, Ellen. I knew Rothbard and the wife were in the story. Thanks.

[Cathy]

Cathy,

Thanks for the good wishes about my husband. He is feeling better, but he meanwhile developed a bad cough. We think the mildew source is a bank of English Ivy growing under his study widow. Moldering crud is under the ivy. I'm in process of pulling the ivy out, and we'll be having a plant guy use something to kill the roots.

Meanwhile, I sympathize with your having turmoil coming to grips with your family seeming to forget about you. I'm confused though regarding something I think you said earlier, but maybe I've misremembered. Did you say something about Marna's telling you she'd wondered what had become of you and your sister but wasn't able to track you?

Regarding your Uncle Frank, he was in decline by 1970 and got worse as the decade went on. According to reports from people who were sometimes at the apartment where Frank and Ayn lived, Frank got so he'd forget if he'd eaten or not, and even wouldn't recognize people he knew.

Ellen

Hi Ellen, Good luck with those plant roots! I didn't sleep to well last night, but today is another day Yes Marna said she often wondered about us and didn't know what happened to us. When the ARI came to interview her, she told them about us. I found out through the last foster home I was in that the social worker told them that my father was not allowed to know my where abouts...I don't know why. They would have had a hard time finding us...if they did try. I got married at seventeen and right away moved to Colorado...and have been moving around ever since. Conny got married right out of high school. Because we didn't hear from them all those years, we just assumed they were all dead. That's sad about Uncle Frank. ~Cathy~

[ginny]

Futility: useless, meaningless. Holding on is useless.

"they have always had the power." THey aren't here anymore. You're the only one who's giving them power now.

Cathy, I hope we're not coming on too hard. But you've had to be brave and strong to survive. That's the part of you that important.

[caroljane]

Adam, you know it is no use to tell someone how to feel. You, like me, grew up secure, loved and indulged and maybe like me thoughtlessly assumed that was the normal condition of childhood for everybody.. as we age i.t is natural to remember more and ponder more on our early lives., and what Cathy and |Ginny have to remember is so dark and sad..Cathy and Ginny, my heart aches for you.

[Selene]

Adam, you know it is no use to tell someone how to feel.

Carol:

I understand how you can hear it that way.

To a great extent, it is a male point of view because we consistently tell folks how to feel. We, as you know, tend to be linear in our thought patterns.

It does not mean that we do not understand feelings. However, we tend to short circuit the feeling part when we speak.

A...

[Peter]

Adam wrote:

You will probably remember a lot more "snapshots" as you explore. end quote

It is fascinating what can be dredged up from pecking at memory, and how our angry view of a person suddenly changes for the better.

Ayn had a beautiful mind, with all of the connotations from the movie of the same title.

Peter

[Peter]

Ellen wrote: I'm often struck when I'm looking things up in the Letters by how much "nicer" the pre-Atlas Ayn Rand comes across to me than the post-Atlas. end quote

Say folks, does anyone think the personality change after Atlas Shrugged is true of a few, some, most, or all Objectivists?

ginny wrote: It's interesting, if not always flattering, to see how Objectivists may appear to outsiders. Anyway, all of us nasty atheists hope you keep hanging out. end quote

Are we mean spirited? Cathy wrote about my wheelbarrow joke: very funny. Is there a point to this?

end quote

After my initial skepticism, I agree that you, CC (Courageous Cathy,) could and should be the real deal. I am getting to like you though I am still looking for your (wheelbarrow. Wheeled Barrel makes more sense to me.) What Cathy adds to the APPEARANCE of Objectivists will be interesting to see too. Are we viewed as dogmatic and condescending? After Cathys revelations will we be viewed as people who have a public face but are personal hypocrites, though I hate to refer to Aunt Alice as a hypocrite?

Peter

[Peter]

PDS wrote: You know the sculptor had a ton of once-in-a-century genius and a great idea in mind, but it's as though she ran of time, and people who probably would have been better off as dentists tried to complete the work. That is what I will always find sad about Objectivism. end quote

Cathy quoted her Aunt Alice's in the introduction of the 25th anniversary of The Fountainhead:

This is one of the cardinal reasons of the fountainhead's lasting appeal: It is a conformation of the spirit of youth, proclaiming man's glory, showing how much is possible. It does not matter that only a few in each generation will grasp and achieve the full reality of man's proper statue-and that the rest will betray it. end quote

It would be fascinating if a real life, modern day Francisco, Ragnar, or John added to the sculpture of Ayn Rand but it may be a youngish nerdy person who revolutionizes Objectivism . . . and that might be any day now.

In the mean time we have wonderful analysts and creators like Stephen Boydston, Roger Bissell, Piekoff, David Kelly, etc., who are adding to Objectivism.

The way to advance Objectivism is easy. Expand and create new visions of the philosophy but simplify its tenets for the millions who will never read her works. As an example, I now tell people who scoff at strict Constitutionalism, Buddy, freedom works. Then I might expand upon what has made America a beacon for the rest of the world. It is our freedom. And our wealth is not just from natural resources. Its from freedom. Freedom works.

Peter

[Cathy]

Futility: useless, meaningless. Holding on is useless.

"they have always had the power." THey aren't here anymore. You're the only one who's giving them power now.

Cathy, I hope we're not coming on too hard. But you've had to be brave and strong to survive. That's the part of you that important.

Ginny, I understand what your saying, only problem is...what the hell do I do with all these memories...all the lies....betrayals? I get upset, then angry, then say things that I don't mean...I don't hate them...I hate what they did. Someone said...I cant imagine "ayn" brushing a child's hair. I thought about that...we had long blond hair and she loved it because she had dark hair. So I guess it was for her benefit again, not ours. Did she ever do anything for anybody that was out of her way and came from the goodness of her heart? I know they aren't here anymore, what's hard for me is knowing they weren't here when they were. Your not coming on to hard...believe me, I'm harder on myself than any of you could ever be. The memories are here and there's nothing I can do about that...if I would have been told about Aunt Alice and who she really was, then maybe I wouldn't question every single memory I have on the motives of her "affections" toward us. Like the prayer when she was Atheist and the hair brushing. Is there anyone who is real through my whole life except for Conny and my mother? I wonder. ~Cathy~

[ginny]

I wish I knew what to do with the lousy memories. What helps me is when they come into my mind, I immediately force myself to think of something else instead of dwelling on it. For example, if stuff like "damn, i wish I'd been allowed to have friends ..." pops up, I immediately snap back, "Okay, chicken for dinner. Let's see if I have any cranberry sauce." It works, and after a while, it gets easy.

It may sound weird, but it is possible to stop the bad thoughts. It's hard, so I work at it. The good thing is that by the time you're done with the second thought, the first one will have melted away - at least, with practice.

The hardest thing to deal with is the fact that there can be pleasure in all of those bad memories. You want to relive the past hoping that some day, some how, the ending will be different. It allows a person to feel sorry for herself and not move forward. It's a private pity party.

[Cathy]

Ellen wrote: I'm often struck when I'm looking things up in the Letters by how much "nicer" the pre-Atlas Ayn Rand comes across to me than the post-Atlas. end quote

Say folks, does anyone think the personality change after Atlas Shrugged is true of a few, some, most, or all Objectivists?

ginny wrote: It's interesting, if not always flattering, to see how Objectivists may appear to outsiders. Anyway, all of us nasty atheists hope you keep hanging out. end quote

Are we mean spirited? Cathy wrote about my wheelbarrow joke: very funny. Is there a point to this?

end quote

After my initial skepticism, I agree that you, CC (Courageous Cathy,) could and should be the real deal. I am getting to like you though I am still looking for your (wheelbarrow. Wheeled Barrel makes more sense to me.) What Cathy adds to the APPEARANCE of Objectivists will be interesting to see too. Are we viewed as dogmatic and condescending? After Cathys revelations will we be viewed as people who have a public face but are personal hypocrites, though I hate to refer to Aunt Alice as a hypocrite?

Peter

Peter, right now the wheelbarrow would make more sense to me to! Unlike Aunt Alice...I am the real deal. I don't know about dogmatic or condescending...most of the things you all say is way over my head. But I do know a hypocrite when I see one and Aunt Alice was one...and so were the rest of them. I hate slamming my family...but why should I care...they didn't care about us. I'm just trying to put everything in perspective and find out what my life meant. I am going into the last chapter of my life (no pun intended) and I need to know why so many people I don't know, know more about my family than I do. So I do look at you all for answers. It is important to me...I don't know why, all I know is it is. My sister drinks every night...don't get me wrong, she works everyday has a nice home and takes care of herself physically...just not mentally, she doesn't want to remember. This all started and I'm not running ever again. I believe in God and he puts me where I need to be, not where I want to be. So I am here.... ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Adam, you know it is no use to tell someone how to feel. You, like me, grew up secure, loved and indulged and maybe like me thoughtlessly assumed that was the normal condition of childhood for everybody.. as we age i.t is natural to remember more and ponder more on our early lives., and what Cathy and |Ginny have to remember is so dark and sad..Cathy and Ginny, my heart aches for you.

Daunce, I hope when my children are without me, they feel they grew up in the same way you feel you did. Thank you for your sincerity, but I am not looking for anyone to be sorry for me...or really me feeling sorry for myself. I want everyone to know the truth...and me to know the truth. I just keep asking myself, how can a family do this? How could I have not known for fifty five years???? How did strangers know and I never did??? I love my kids and my niece and nephew...I would never ever let someone hurt them, or ever turn my back on them. Where did I get that from???? Who all made me into me???? Or how many lies made me into me???? Most children grow up with solid roots...some don't and get lost along the way...most don't wake up one day and find out their family is their family, but some of them are not the people you think they are...but everyone else knows who they are....but you. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's the best way I can explain it. Thanks Daunce and it was nice to hear from you again. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

I wish I knew what to do with the lousy memories. What helps me is when they come into my mind, I immediately force myself to think of something else instead of dwelling on it. For example, if stuff like "damn, i wish I'd been allowed to have friends ..." pops up, I immediately snap back, "Okay, chicken for dinner. Let's see if I have any cranberry sauce." It works, and after a while, it gets easy.

It may sound weird, but it is possible to stop the bad thoughts. It's hard, so I work at it. The good thing is that by the time you're done with the second thought, the first one will have melted away - at least, with practice.

The hardest thing to deal with is the fact that there can be pleasure in all of those bad memories. You want to relive the past hoping that some day, some how, the ending will be different. It allows a person to feel sorry for herself and not move forward. It's a private pity party.

Ginny, I hear what your saying, and I think I already had the private pity party way back when. That's the reason my life got so out of hand. I am not the same person I was when I left my father's house and never will be again. I did try to think of other things when memories would pop in my head...and then it just triggered more memories. I think they are memories I should have and I shouldn't run from them. From the outside looking in we were a normal Catholic family, where everyone knew my Aunt had a great mind and was a great philosopher. You say the ending wont be different, but it already is different...I know now I'm not weak like my father, I am not fake like my aunt and I'm not evil like my step mother. I see them all for who they really are. They didn't want anyone to know about Uncle Frank's drinking or Aunt Alice's affair or the twins that were being abused and abandon....typical O'Connor style, but its all out now. I have to smile somewhat, they thought all their secrets would go to the grave with them...again, typical O'Connor style. ~Cathy~

[ginny]

Cathy, I forgot about how your are struggling to remember. Yeah, that makes it difficult, cause you need to think in order to remember. Damn. Is it any comfort to you that you have turned yourself into a lovely human being. It seems the curse of the O'Connors is stopping with you. There's a chance that posting here will get a lot of it out. Beats drinking.

[Cathy]

Cathy, I forgot about how your are struggling to remember. Yeah, that makes it difficult, cause you need to think in order to remember. Damn. Is it any comfort to you that you have turned yourself into a lovely human being. It seems the curse of the O'Connors is stopping with you. There's a chance that posting here will get a lot of it out. Beats drinking.

LOL! Ginny your funny! Yeah, this forum is like free therapy...you all are my shrink ~Cathy~ p.s. thx

[ginny]

We charge a lot. We're selfish, remember? Get the checkbook out!

[Cathy]

We charge a lot. We're selfish, remember? Get the checkbook out!

LOL!

[caroljane]

Cathy, I never thought you were asking for sympathy, you are just looking for answers to the essential puzzle of your own life as we all do -- and you are missing so many pieces through no fault of your own., It would be impossible not to feel sympathy about that. You mentioned having "nobody to remember with you" and that strikes such a chord with me. When you outlive your loved ones that is the essential loneliness. Every day I think of something I mean to ask my mother about the past.. like, what would they have named me if I had been a boy.. silly family trivia (I fear it would have been Stillman my grandfather however, and I would be known as Silly Stillie to this day).

And though it is a mean spirited sort of comfort, there are so many different kinds of sad confusing childhoods, -- look at poor little rich Paris Jackson surrounded by greedy weirdos. At least you survived your trauma and defied it by building your own loving family.

No charge, I am a socialist albeit a selfish one.

[Cathy]

Cathy, I never thought you were asking for sympathy, you are just looking for answers to the essential puzzle of your own life as we all do -- and you are missing so many pieces through no fault of your own., It would be impossible not to feel sympathy about that. You mentioned having "nobody to remember with you" and that strikes such a chord with me. When you outlive your loved ones that is the essential loneliness. Every day I think of something I mean to ask my mother about the past.. like, what would they have named me if I had been a boy.. silly family trivia (I fear it would have been Stillman my grandfather however, and I would be known as Silly Stillie to this day).

And though it is a mean spirited sort of comfort, there are so many different kinds of sad confusing childhoods, -- look at poor little rich Paris Jackson surrounded by greedy weirdos. At least you survived your trauma and defied it by building your own loving family.

No charge, I am a socialist albeit a selfish one.

LOL! See...that's why I like all of you, even tho I have to use a dictionary most of the time. I have taken myself back to the beginning...I was born to two very good people. Even tho they were to old to have children...that was the first mistake. Even tho my parents were divorce they were still good parents. My mother and father never talked bad about each other to us. I only seen one disagreement between them when I was five...my dad grab my mother's arms...and I remember it like it was yesterday. I even know what I was wearing...so I know how that does traumatize a child. I wonder sometimes where my life would have been if my mother hadn't have gotten sick and died...or my dad wouldn't have married the evil woman from hell. But what's strange to me, is my mother never told us about Aunt Alice either. I wonder if my parents were in agreement on hiding this from us...and why? Was Aunt Alice so radical back in the sixties? I think I was lucky to a point...for eight years I did have a solid foundation, even tho I came from divorce parents. I never had to sit and wait for my father on visiting day who wouldn't show up...my father always came to get us. My mother was a registered nurse and owned a nursing home...while my father was a professional poker player who was very good at it. My mother was out going and out spoken, my father was very calm and not expressive. I have both of their traits and nothing in between. I am out spoken when it comes to my family, my house and my money. I pay all the bills and run the household, like my mother. I am a very good poker player, but I avoid any confrontations anyway I can and I have a hard time expressing myself, like my father. It is so much easier for me to write it than talk it. Either it was predisposed in our DNA or we learned it young to not talk about things. My father didn't know half of what my step mother did. When he was diagnosed with cancer and was in the hospital, my step mother came home and told us we gave my father cancer. She beat us for it and we were put on stools in the corner all night long. We never told our father...we never told anybody...that's the O'Connor trait I hate. Uncle Frank was the same way. Uncle Frank would have never told anybody about the affair...it was Aunt Alice who told Aunt Agnes about it. If Uncle Frank started drinking heavily, I thinks its because he couldn't talk to anybody and kept everything to himself, while Aunt Alice had everyone to talk to. Yes, I still do wish they were still here, I have a lot to ask and a lot to say...now. ~Cathy~

[caroljane]

You will get to enjoy the dictionary Cathy! If I was bored as a child I used to open it at random and read it...there was a lot of startling medical information in there!

[Cathy]

You will get to enjoy the dictionary Cathy! If I was bored as a child I used to open it at random and read it...there was a lot of startling medical information in there!

lol...since I have been on here, I use the dictionary more than I ever did all through school! Hey...I'm getting free therapy and free education...thx ~Cathy~

[caroljane]

Your mother had a nursing home! My closest cousin, more like a sister, was a gerontology specialist RN and ran a nursing home till her retirement. On retirement she and her husband took a road trip across the US in an open convertible, then visited their married sons in Vancouver and Japan, then went to Spain to walk the pilgrimage to St James of Compostela (they are devout Catholics) it was a fabulous experience and they made friends from all over Europe. Jane wants to go back visit them but her husband Donnie says nothing will get him away from home and his golf and curling again.

Though retired Jane works as much as ever, filling in nursing and assessing nursing homes across Canada, besides the social pleasures of her four children, nine siblings and eleven siblings-in-law, never mind all us cousins.

When she comes to Ontario I go to her hotel and we have a Cousins Gone Wild spa weekend, swimming, watching movies, drinking wine. laughing and yakking.

I always wanted a sister or brother and could not have had a better one than she is.