Frank's Niece!

[ginny]

Thank God. Take a deep breath and relax

[Guyau]

Cathy, I should have stated you get no good or real idea about Rand and Branden and what happened back then by watching that movie. The book is incomparably better. Nathaniel was much brainier, Rand too, and much more powerful and dynamic a personality. Peter Fonda playing Frank was much, much closer to the human mark than Eric Stolz playing Nathaniel (Rand never stopped calling him "Nathan," at least while they still had a relationship) was weak silly. Helen Mirren As Ayn was better but Ayn as Ayn would have obliterated Eric as Nathaniel--you wouldn't have even seen him. What was not replicated in the book or the movie was the role of powerful ideas in this human mix. I guess you had to have been there, seen it and felt it.

--Brant

Thanks for this perspective, Brant. Like Cathy, I have not read this book. I saw the movie when it came out. I knew that the shallowness of the young Nathan meeting Rand had to be wrong. I was much more serious and intelligent at that age than what was represented there, and I was pretty sure he was too. That movie introduced me to Helen Mirren. We see most anything she does, after learning of her. Recently, The Tempest. The actress Julie Delpy had not so stuck with me at the time, but a few weeks ago, I discovered the film Before Sunrise, which I liked very much. Then we learned of Before Sunset---so romantic. Now at theaters, Before Midnight. I digressed.

[caroljane]

Cathy, I should have stated you get no good or real idea about Rand and Branden and what happened back then by watching that movie. The book is incomparably better. Nathaniel was much brainier, Rand too, and much more powerful and dynamic a personality. Peter Fonda playing Frank was much, much closer to the human mark than Eric Stolz playing Nathaniel (Rand never stopped calling him "Nathan," at least while they still had a relationship) was weak silly. Helen Mirren As Ayn was better but Ayn as Ayn would have obliterated Eric as Nathaniel--you wouldn't have even seen him. What was not replicated in the book or the movie was the role of powerful ideas in this human mix. I guess you had to have been there, seen it and felt it.

--Brant

Thanks for this perspective, Brant. Like Cathy, I have not read this book. I saw the movie when it came out. I knew that the shallowness of the young Nathan meeting Rand had to be wrong. I was much more serious and intelligent at that age than what was represented there, and I was pretty sure he was too. That movie introduced me to Helen Mirren. We see most anything she does, after learning of her. Recently, The Tempest. The actress Julie Delpy had not so stuck with me at the time, but a few weeks ago, I discovered the film Before Sunrise, which I liked very much. Then we learned of Before Sunset---so romantic. Now at theaters, Before Midnight. I digressed.

Stephen, thanks for that perspective too. Men at that age are (and were ) more serious and intelligent than your and Brant's impression of this NB portrayal suggest; and if there is anything an outsider can know about the young NB, it is that he was serious and intelligent.

[caroljane]

Did BB get casting approval? All four of the leads are excellent actors - and Stoltz's misinterpretation may have been down to the script or director

Johnny Depp could have done a great Branden if he put on a few pounds.

[Guyau]

. . .

. . . Right now, I am learning everything I can about both of them. I believe her views about the government 100% but I do not believe in selfishness. As close to selfishness as I can get would be one hand washes the other...other than that, I do believe we are our brothers keeper. I told my husband one time that I wish I could be like other people and not feel so much...but then that wouldn't be me. ~Cathy~

I think many Americans are pretty much like that, Cathy. Unfortunately on the political side, a lot of citizens assume that if people should not be selfish and if they should be their brothers' keeper, then this means they should contribute their money to the government so much that it can help people, beyond simply protecting the citizens from aggression.

Leaving the political considerations entirely aside, I think Rand's formulation of a new sort of selfishness has been good for the people who understood it and practiced it. I do not entirely agree with Rand's ideal of selfishness, but people I have known who have lived it have been happy and prosperous, and some made happy families. The laboratory in which Rand's ethical system has been tested includes tens of thousands of individual lives, not only the life of Rand and her close circle.

Stephen

[caroljane]

Thank God. Take a deep breath and relax

Ginny, thanks for your concern. I just talked to Stu, very short call because somebody was throwing a major tantrum in the background I am pretty sure it was not my daughter-in-law.

Calgary is something of Canada's Zion, "Glorious things of thee are spoken" especially of thy oil. And as to water "see the streams of living waters...well supply thy sons and daughters, and all fear of want remove...

Who can faint, when such a river ever flows our thirst to assuage...?"+

Note to Jehovah, we could, if you don't cut it out...enough already!

-The Sons and Daughters

+John Newton, 1779

[caroljane]

+lyricists should always get credit. Haydn who wrote the melody does not need it , everyone has heard it.

[ginny]

Is it still flooding?

[caroljane]

So far yes. Jeez! I have seen the Bow river and it is so low and narrow, more like a canal. But it must be subsiding soon.

[ginny]

Climb high on a bar stool. It might be the safest place. Make the gents carry you through the water.

[Selene]

Climb high on a bar stool. It might be the safest place. Make the gents carry you through the water.

Sexist!!!

[ginny]

Any time I can get away with it.

[Selene]

Any time I can get away with it.

Hmm...now there are a thousand stories in that response...

[ginny]

Keep it clean.

Sorry, forgot who I'm talking to.

[Cathy]

LOL!

[Cathy]

What was Ayn Rand's philosophy on dying? Does anyone now or think they know what her regrets in dying would be? Here is an article I read on the top 5 regrets of dying.

Here are the top five regrets of the dying, as witnessed by Ware:

1. I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to myself, not the life others expected of me.

"This was the most common regret of all. When people realize that their life is almost over and look back clearly on it, it is easy to see how many dreams have gone unfulfilled. Most people had not honored even a half of their dreams and had to die knowing that it was due to choices they had made, or not made. Health brings a freedom very few realize, until they no longer have it."

2. I wish I hadn't worked so hard.

"This came from every male patient that I nursed. They missed their children's youth and their partner's companionship. Women also spoke of this regret, but as most were from an older generation, many of the female patients had not been breadwinners. All of the men I nursed deeply regretted spending so much of their lives on the treadmill of a work existence."

3. I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings.

"Many people suppressed their feelings in order to keep peace with others. As a result, they settled for a mediocre existence and never became who they were truly capable of becoming. Many developed illnesses relating to the bitterness and resentment they carried as a result."

4. I wish I had stayed in touch with my friends.

"Often they would not truly realize the full benefits of old friends until their dying weeks and it was not always possible to track them down. Many had become so caught up in their own lives that they had let golden friendships slip by over the years. There were many deep regrets about not giving friendships the time and effort that they deserved. Everyone misses their friends when they are dying."

5. I wish that I had let myself be happier.

"This is a surprisingly common one. Many did not realize until the end that happiness is a choice. They had stayed stuck in old patterns and habits. The so-called 'comfort' of familiarity overflowed into their emotions, as well as their physical lives. Fear of change had them pretending to others, and to their selves, that they were content, when deep within, they longed to laugh properly and have silliness in their life again

[Brant Gaede]

"When you're finished you're finished!"

If I thought there was an afterlife I'd kill myself and go to him [Frank].

She was all about "living on earth," not in a heaven, and didn't dwell on such a subject as dying.

--Brant

[Cathy]

Brant Gaede, on 25 Jun 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

"When you're finished you're finished!"

If I thought there was an afterlife I'd kill myself and go to him [Frank].

She was all about "living on earth," not in a heaven, and didn't dwell on such a subject as dying.

--Brant

So her philosophy was all about life not death? If I were a philosopher...which I am diffenanlty not, but I would want to try to figure out both. Even if I did not believe in God, I feel there is to much to us to not carry over somewhere. Just like there is a process of being born, there also is a process of dying. With her being a genius, I would just want to know it all. Or maybe, just like God, she felt there was no evidence so why believe. There is evidence of death, and to many people have near death experiences to at least not try to have some kind of philosophy as to what happens when we die. ~Cathy~

[Brant Gaede]

Brant Gaede, on 25 Jun 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

"When you're finished you're finished!"

If I thought there was an afterlife I'd kill myself and go to him [Frank].

She was all about "living on earth," not in a heaven, and didn't dwell on such a subject as dying.

--Brant

So her philosophy was all about life not death? If I were a philosopher...which I am diffenanlty not, but I would want to try to figure out both. Even if I did not believe in God, I feel there is to much to us to not carry over somewhere. Just like there is a process of being born, there also is a process of dying. With her being a genius, I would just want to know it all. Or maybe, just like God, she felt there was no evidence so why believe. There is evidence of death, and to many people have near death experiences to at least not try to have some kind of philosophy as to what happens when we die. ~Cathy~

Her position was absent evidence to the contrary there was nothing to figure out. As for life after death she had her books. Her position was not to write just for her generations but future ones too. Generally, btw, Jews are more life oriented than Christians and Christians than Muslims (who have reduced themselves to 72 virgins in paradise).

--Brant

[Selene]

Generally, btw, Jews are more life oriented than Christians and Christians than Muslims (who have reduced themselves to 72 virgins in paradise

--Brant

Brant:

I respect your mind. However, that statement clanks against my personal experiences with lay nuns, Jesuits and other folks who espouse a faith that is co-equal with other faiths.

A...

[Cathy]

Brant Gaede, on 25 Jun 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

"When you're finished you're finished!"

If I thought there was an afterlife I'd kill myself and go to him [Frank].

She was all about "living on earth," not in a heaven, and didn't dwell on such a subject as dying.

--Brant

So her philosophy was all about life not death? If I were a philosopher...which I am diffenanlty not, but I would want to try to figure out both. Even if I did not believe in God, I feel there is to much to us to not carry over somewhere. Just like there is a process of being born, there also is a process of dying. With her being a genius, I would just want to know it all. Or maybe, just like God, she felt there was no evidence so why believe. There is evidence of death, and to many people have near death experiences to at least not try to have some kind of philosophy as to what happens when we die. ~Cathy~

Her position was absent evidence to the contrary there was nothing to figure out. As for life after death she had her books. Her position was not to write just for her generations but future ones too. Generally, btw, Jews are more life oriented than Christians and Christians than Muslims (who have reduced themselves to 72 virgins in paradise).

--Brant

So her life after death was her books...her words. Good one ~Cathy~

[Guyau]

Cathy,

Brant is right in his report that Rand thought of death as the end of the individual’s life. Just full stop. Nothing more.

Death has an important role in her basic theory of value, which she reach fully only by the time of writing Atlas Shrugged. In her conception, it is the alternative of further life or the stop of life faced by a living organism that is the basic setting of all values, all good or bad.

Thanks for sharing the regrets of dying. They are regrets of the way they made their lives, it seems. My own is that I was too hard on my relatives sometimes and too hard on myself.

Rand expressed some intimate ideas about death in her novels. In Atlas Shrugged she had her heroine Dagny Taggart in a dialogue with another protagonist Ken Danagger, as follows:

“I wondered at times how much I’d give for just one more glimpse or one more word—and now—now this is like that dream you imagine in childhood, when you think that some day, in heaven, you will see those great departed whom you had not seen on earth, and you choose, from all the past centuries, the great men you would like to meet.”

. . .

“And if you met those great men in heaven,” asked Ken Danagger, “what would you want to say to them?”

“Just . . . just ‘hello’ I guess.”

“That’s not all,” said Danagger, “There’s something you’d want to hear from them. I didn’t know it, either, until I saw him for the first time”—he pointed to Galt—“and he said it to me, and then I knew what it was that I had missed all my life. Miss Taggart, you’d want them to look at you and to say, ‘Well done’.” She dropped her head and nodded silently, head down, not to let him see the sudden spurt of tears to her eyes.

In her first novel We the Living (1936), Rand crafted the following end for her tragic heroine:

She lay on the edge of a hill and looked down at the sky. One hand, white and still, hung over the edge, and little red drops rolled slowly in the snow, down the slope.

She smiled. She knew she was dying. But it did not matter any longer. She had known something which no human words could ever tell and she knew it now. She had been awaiting it and she felt it, as if it had been, as if she had lived it. Life had been, if only because she had known it could be, and she felt it now as a hymn without sound, deep under the little hole that dripped red drops into the snow, deeper than that from which the red drops came. A moment or an eternity—did it matter? Life, undefeated, existed and could exist.

She smiled, her last smile, to so much that had been possible.

–S

[Cathy]

Cathy,

Brant is right in his report that Rand thought of death as the end of the individual’s life. Just full stop. Nothing more.

Death has an important role in her basic theory of value, which she reach fully only by the time of writing Atlas Shrugged. In her conception, it is the alternative of further life or the stop of life faced by a living organism that is the basic setting of all values, all good or bad.

Thanks for sharing the regrets of dying. They are regrets of the way they made their lives, it seems. My own is that I was too hard on my relatives sometimes and too hard on myself.

Rand expressed some intimate ideas about death in her novels. In Atlas Shrugged she had her heroine Dagny Taggart in a dialogue with another protagonist Ken Danagger, as follows:

“I wondered at times how much I’d give for just one more glimpse or one more word—and now—now this is like that dream you imagine in childhood, when you think that some day, in heaven, you will see those great departed whom you had not seen on earth, and you choose, from all the past centuries, the great men you would like to meet.”

. . .

“And if you met those great men in heaven,” asked Ken Danagger, “what would you want to say to them?”

“Just . . . just ‘hello’ I guess.”

“That’s not all,” said Danagger, “There’s something you’d want to hear from them. I didn’t know it, either, until I saw him for the first time”—he pointed to Galt—“and he said it to me, and then I knew what it was that I had missed all my life. Miss Taggart, you’d want them to look at you and to say, ‘Well done’.” She dropped her head and nodded silently, head down, not to let him see the sudden spurt of tears to her eyes.

In her first novel We the Living (1936), Rand crafted the following end for her tragic heroine:

She lay on the edge of a hill and looked down at the sky. One hand, white and still, hung over the edge, and little red drops rolled slowly in the snow, down the slope.

She smiled. She knew she was dying. But it did not matter any longer. She had known something which no human words could ever tell and she knew it now. She had been awaiting it and she felt it, as if it had been, as if she had lived it. Life had been, if only because she had known it could be, and she felt it now as a hymn without sound, deep under the little hole that dripped red drops into the snow, deeper than that from which the red drops came. A moment or an eternity—did it matter? Life, undefeated, existed and could exist.

She smiled, her last smile, to so much that had been possible.

–S

Who was John Galt? Was he an angel? Why did she write about heaven if she didn't believe there was a life after death? I need to read those books...she seemed like a very good writer. Stephen, I think we all will regret things on our death bed. I think none of us have done things we wished we had, or could have whatever it maybe. And when that time happens, we are all going to wish that we could turn back time. ~Cathy~

[Brant Gaede]

Generally, btw, Jews are more life oriented than Christians and Christians than Muslims (who have reduced themselves to 72 virgins in paradise

--Brant

Brant:

I respect your mind. However, that statement clanks against my personal experiences with lay nuns, Jesuits and other folks who espouse a faith that is co-equal with other faiths.

A...

Culturally I'm a Christian* (WASP). That there are uncounted individual exceptions to what I wrote doesn't invalidate it and it also has nothing to do with the co-equality of monotheistic religions which is more out of intellectualizations.

--Brant

*but not a Christian

are Jesuits closet atheists?

[Selene]

"...are Jesuits closet atheists?"

Brant: Now that is an interesting question. A number of them are probably deists.

A...