Frank's Niece!

[Guyau]

Cathy, the bit about "hey" brought back memories. Our folks said the same thing if we used that. Also, we were not allowed to refer to children as "kids," which we were informed were goats.

[Cathy]

Cathy, the bit about "hey" brought back memories. Our folks said the same thing if we used that. Also, we were not allowed to refer to children as "kids," which we were informed were goats.

LOL...never heard the "kid" thing...but makes as much sense as "hey" thing lol. ~Cathy~

[ginny]

objectivism - Ayn Rand's philosophy of reason. You didn't capitalize the word. In certain circles, you just got tied back to the stake. By reason she means not to use faith, but logic, i.e., anything you can prove. Faith - bad word.

Altruism - When you give something and get a lesser item (value) in return. That's why that food example was important. If you give your food to someone who has less value for you than someone else, Rand will call you altruistic. Bad word. This gets complicated because to the rest of the world, altruism is a good thing.

[Cathy]

objectivism - Ayn Rand's philosophy of reason. You didn't capitalize the word. In certain circles, you just got tied back to the stake. By reason she means not to use faith, but logic, i.e., anything you can prove. Faith - bad word.

Altruism - When you give something and get a lesser item (value) in return. That's why that food example was important. If you give your food to someone who has less value for you than someone else, Rand will call you altruistic. Bad word. This gets complicated because to the rest of the world, altruism is a good thing.

Ahhhh! Logic, something tangible and can be proven. Altruism...is it like someone who will take your food but could careless if your starving? Am I getting it?

[ginny]

Bingo on logic.

Altruism - it's when YOU GIVE your food to someone when you or your kids are starving. oing for others is your ultimate goal.

Another word is sacrifice, another bad word. The problem is that the dictionary give the meaning of sacrificing you value as well as sacrificing something not of high value. That's where the confusion comes in. Obectivists have a bunch of treads arguing this one.

Same with selfishness. That's a good word. But selfish can mean so many things. For her,, hurting other people and having an affair was selfish - good. Yet the person next door who plays his music so loud is also looking out for himself and being selfish. Is that a good thing? Matter of fact, not sure if you know, but Rand herself really did make a nuisane of herself with her relatives in Chicago by using most of the hot water and typing into the night when the rest wanted to sleep. She's looking out for herself. I'd give her kick her rear and toss her out.

BTW, you said the family argument was over a fur coat. After was the relatives put up with, I can see why they might be irritated at a broken promise. Anyway she was selfish and considered it good. I don't. Why? What does a selfish person do when someone is being selfish? (example, what would she have said if her husband wanted as affair. God knows she went crazy when Branden did.) Selfish is a two way street.

This is probably my absolute main and biggest problem with Aunt Alice. Maybe she was arrogant enough to think she could improve on Webster's Dictionary, but it causes a lot of confusion.

[Ellen Stuttle]

This is probably my absolute main and biggest problem with Aunt Alice. Maybe she was arrogant enough to think she could improve on Webster's Dictionary, but it causes a lot of confusion.

My (unprovable) belief is that Objectivism would have made a lot more cultural inroads than it has if:

(1) Aunt Alice would have talked like a native instead of seeming intent on redefining the English language (I grant that her usage of "altruism" is the original Comtean meaning, but even by the time she started railing against "altruism," its general meaning in English usage had changed); and

(2) She hadn't been stuck with leaving her estate to Leonard Peikoff, having no one else left by then.

Ellen

[Brant Gaede]

If Rand's works were published anonomously but accurately attributed to being from the same and sole source, my appreciation of those works and the ideas on which they are based would not change an iota if were also reported that the individual enjoyed the maltreatment of kittens. I do not understand the interest of some in the personal (everything not concerned with the published ideas)life of the author.

I would not change my opinion of the ideas if the author of those ideas lived in immoral manner but I guess that's just me. No offense to Frank's Niece, but who cares,... unless she is in possession of some yet unreleased manuscripts, any chance there?

We are human beings, not programmed computers dishing out conclusionary data in response to a question.

--Brant

Your my kind of man Brant ;)

Cathy, could you do me a favor and edit out my over-the-top ~stuff~ after "Brant" in that post?

--Brant

Sorry Brant, I just got on here and it was deleted already. ~Cathy~

Oh, I did that--it's still in your original post quoting me. You can use the edit function or ask Michael to do it for you.

--Brant

it's not that I embarrassed myself, which I did, but it isn't fair to Tad

[Cathy]

Bingo on logic.

Altruism - it's when YOU GIVE your food to someone when you or your kids are starving. oing for others is your ultimate goal.

Another word is sacrifice, another bad word. The problem is that the dictionary give the meaning of sacrificing you value as well as sacrificing something not of high value. That's where the confusion comes in. Obectivists have a bunch of treads arguing this one.

Same with selfishness. That's a good word. But selfish can mean so many things. For her,, hurting other people and having an affair was selfish - good. Yet the person next door who plays his music so loud is also looking out for himself and being selfish. Is that a good thing? Matter of fact, not sure if you know, but Rand herself really did make a nuisane of herself with her relatives in Chicago by using most of the hot water and typing into the night when the rest wanted to sleep. She's looking out for herself. I'd give her kick her rear and toss her out.

BTW, you said the family argument was over a fur coat. After was the relatives put up with, I can see why they might be irritated at a broken promise. Anyway she was selfish and considered it good. I don't. Why? What does a selfish person do when someone is being selfish? (example, what would she have said if her husband wanted as affair. God knows she went crazy when Branden did.) Selfish is a two way street.

This is probably my absolute main and biggest problem with Aunt Alice. Maybe she was arrogant enough to think she could improve on Webster's Dictionary, but it causes a lot of confusion.

I look back on things now...not out of a child's eye, but my adult eye, and my perspective is so different now. When my family would say "the world according to Alice" I don't think it was about her great philosophies, as much as Aunt Alice's world. What I mean is, her philosophy was to benefit herself...not so much others. Remember what was said about the cousin and the coat? My Aunt Agnes said according to Aunt Alice...everyone should say what the mean, and mean what they say...except Aunt Alice. My family already knew way back then that her rules of philosophy only applied when it came to her. Your right...she would have hit the roof if Uncle Frank had an affair! So far I think a lot of her philosophies are a good way to think as long as you already have value and morals instilled in your personality. I hope I'm making sense. I didn't hear about her using all the hot water and keeping them up at night...but she should have given the coat, not so much because of her staying with them, but because she had promised it. Branden may have been her intellectual, but Uncle Frank was her anchor, it was pretty easy for her to replace Branden with Peikoff (intellectually)but she was smart enough to know she would never find another Frank. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

This is probably my absolute main and biggest problem with Aunt Alice. Maybe she was arrogant enough to think she could improve on Webster's Dictionary, but it causes a lot of confusion.

My (unprovable) belief is that Objectivism would have made a lot more cultural inroads than it has if:

(1) Aunt Alice would have talked like a native instead of seeming intent on redefining the English language (I grant that her usage of "altruism" is the original Comtean meaning, but even by the time she started railing against "altruism," its general meaning in English usage had changed); and

(2) She hadn't been stuck with leaving her estate to Leonard Peikoff, having no one else left by then.

Ellen

The 2nd reference you made Ellen is the one that is so Aunt Alice! MiMi was always in Aunt Alice's life, she was almost their surrogate daughter. Aunt Alice had plenty of money, she could have distribute it to MiMi, Peikoff, charity ect. But it was her ultimate control to leave it all to peikoff...I believe. Marna told me after Aunt Alice died, Peikoff sent her $1,000 and said that Ayn would want her to have it..."Ayn" taught him well... ~Cathy~

[Brant Gaede]

One reason people who don't have money don't have money is they keep giving it away to appease others in similar circumstances, especially those they know and interact with. This practical psychological-economic egalitarianism fueled in part by envy, in part by love, in part by what might be called "social fear" or cultural norm, is slap-dab up against what Ayn Rand spent her life fighting. It is interesting that Cathy, a Catholic, is now interacting with the lions in the lions' den of "selfishness" who, fortunately, don't find her yummy enough to eat.

--Brant

the triumph of good manners or the impotence of bad ones

Cathy is using ~the force~ but she doesn't know the power of the good side

[Brant Gaede]

Cathy, if you think Branden was replaced by Peikoff your education is not yet complete.

--Brant

The Yugo did not replace the Cadillac

[Guyau]

~Follow-on to #555 and #556~

A dictionary definition captures the meanings people are actually attaching to terms. That changes with time. My American Heritage Dictionary was issued in 1976, which was in the later part of Rand’s life.

The first definition it gave for faith was: “a confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.” This first definition is followed by five others.

This dictionary gave only one definition of altruism: “concern for the welfare of others, as opposed to egoism; selflessness.” That’s it.

This dictionary gave only one definition for self-sacrifice: “sacrifice of one’s personal interests or well-being for the sake of others.” I’m a little surprised they didn’t mention self-sacrifice for the sake of a cause, but maybe they meant to include that within sacrifice for the sake of others. After all, if someone sacrifices their life for the cause of freedom in their country, it will be for the freedom of others.

Concerning the definition of faith above, Rand could say, “That is not what I’m opposing in opposing faith. Rather, I am opposing something else having the same name. Specifically, I am opposing faith as it means under another definition given in that dictionary: ‘belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence’.” When she and her readers get on the same wavelength of what it is she is talking about, it remains that many readers (most Christians, all Protestants) squarely support what Rand is opposing in opposing faith.

Similarly it goes with altruism and self-sacrifice. Rand could clarify her opposition to altruism by saying she does not oppose what comes first in the definition, “concern for the welfare of others.” She could clarify that what she opposes is concern for the welfare of others as it is encased in the rest of the definition, that she is opposed to selflessness. Then she could explain what is the exact sense of selflessness she is opposed to. Overwhelmingly, exactly that sense of selflessness and the full dictionary definition of altruism is supported as morally praiseworthy in our culture. Self-sacrifice, too, under the dictionary definition, is a virtue in the culture and a vice in Rand’s view.

Public-relations shells are soon enough shaken off, and the substance is reached by interested readers. The root opposition between Rand and the dominant culture is a matter of substance, and any genuine connection of minds and persons across sides, requires talking and thinking about those differences in substantial positions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ginny, a further point, unfortunately a bit tedious, concerns the conflict between Rand’s meaning of sacrifice in general (not just self-sacrifice) and the dictionary definition. One definition given in my dictionary is: “the forfeiture of something highly valued, as an idea, object, or friendship, for the sake of someone or something considered to have a higher value or claim.” A separate definition given in my dictionary is: “a relinquishing of something at less than its presumed value.” Rand could have said she was not opposed to sacrifice as meant in that first definition, but that she was opposed to deliberately making sacrifices as in that second definition. Also she could have said she was opposed to dressing up in moral radiance sacrifice as in the second definition. But starting with the oratory in Galt’s speech, and continuing beyond in non-fiction, she insisted that what was happening in the first definition simply was not sacrifice. As between those two dictionary definitions of sacrifice, she would accept only the latter as a definition of sacrifice. It is true that philosophers sometimes formulate their own definitions of things, related to ordinary-usage definitions, but loaded to make a philosophical point, possibly a good one. In the case of definition of sacrifice, I don’t see any need for Rand to be flying in the face of the dictionary in order to get to her substantive point.

[Ellen Stuttle]

Marna told me after Aunt Alice died, Peikoff sent her $1,000 and said that Ayn would want her to have it..."Ayn" taught him well... ~Cathy~

The more you talk, the more things come up. So Peikoff knew about Marna and had reason to think that Ayn still had some contact with Marna. Recall, Tom alerted us to a letter Ayn sent to Marna in February 1950, but that was a long while before Ayn died, and before Ayn had even met Peikoff.

Ellen

[ginny]

Bingo on logic.

Altruism - it's when YOU GIVE your food to someone when you or your kids are starving. oing for others is your ultimate goal.

Another word is sacrifice, another bad word. The problem is that the dictionary give the meaning of sacrificing you value as well as sacrificing something not of high value. That's where the confusion comes in. Obectivists have a bunch of treads arguing this one.

Same with selfishness. That's a good word. But selfish can mean so many things. For her,, hurting other people and having an affair was selfish - good. Yet the person next door who plays his music so loud is also looking out for himself and being selfish. Is that a good thing? Matter of fact, not sure if you know, but Rand herself really did make a nuisane of herself with her relatives in Chicago by using most of the hot water and typing into the night when the rest wanted to sleep. She's looking out for herself. I'd give her kick her rear and toss her out.

BTW, you said the family argument was over a fur coat. After was the relatives put up with, I can see why they might be irritated at a broken promise. Anyway she was selfish and considered it good. I don't. Why? What does a selfish person do when someone is being selfish? (example, what would she have said if her husband wanted as affair. God knows she went crazy when Branden did.) Selfish is a two way street.

This is probably my absolute main and biggest problem with Aunt Alice. Maybe she was arrogant enough to think she could improve on Webster's Dictionary, but it causes a lot of confusion.

I look back on things now...not out of a child's eye, but my adult eye, and my perspective is so different now. When my family would say "the world according to Alice" I don't think it was about her great philosophies, as much as Aunt Alice's world. What I mean is, her philosophy was to benefit herself...not so much others. Remember what was said about the cousin and the coat? My Aunt Agnes said according to Aunt Alice...everyone should say what the mean, and mean what they say...except Aunt Alice. My family already knew way back then that her rules of philosophy only applied when it came to her. Your right...she would have hit the roof if Uncle Frank had an affair! So far I think a lot of her philosophies are a good way to think as long as you already have value and morals instilled in your personality. I hope I'm making sense. I didn't hear about her using all the hot water and keeping them up at night...but she should have given the coat, not so much because of her staying with them, but because she had promised it. Branden may have been her intellectual, but Uncle Frank was her anchor, it was pretty easy for her to replace Branden with Peikoff (intellectually)but she was smart enough to know she would never find another Frank. ~Cathy~

Cathy, your statement about Ayn's philosophy being for her is interesting. Nathanial Branden once said that Ayn came up with her entire philosophy in order to understand herself - words to that effect. That might explain a lot.

[ginny]

Bingo on logic.

Altruism - it's when YOU GIVE your food to someone when you or your kids are starving. oing for others is your ultimate goal.

Another word is sacrifice, another bad word. The problem is that the dictionary give the meaning of sacrificing you value as well as sacrificing something not of high value. That's where the confusion comes in. Obectivists have a bunch of treads arguing this one.

Same with selfishness. That's a good word. But selfish can mean so many things. For her,, hurting other people and having an affair was selfish - good. Yet the person next door who plays his music so loud is also looking out for himself and being selfish. Is that a good thing? Matter of fact, not sure if you know, but Rand herself really did make a nuisane of herself with her relatives in Chicago by using most of the hot water and typing into the night when the rest wanted to sleep. She's looking out for herself. I'd give her kick her rear and toss her out.

BTW, you said the family argument was over a fur coat. After was the relatives put up with, I can see why they might be irritated at a broken promise. Anyway she was selfish and considered it good. I don't. Why? What does a selfish person do when someone is being selfish? (example, what would she have said if her husband wanted as affair. God knows she went crazy when Branden did.) Selfish is a two way street.

This is probably my absolute main and biggest problem with Aunt Alice. Maybe she was arrogant enough to think she could improve on Webster's Dictionary, but it causes a lot of confusion.

I look back on things now...not out of a child's eye, but my adult eye, and my perspective is so different now. When my family would say "the world according to Alice" I don't think it was about her great philosophies, as much as Aunt Alice's world. What I mean is, her philosophy was to benefit herself...not so much others. Remember what was said about the cousin and the coat? My Aunt Agnes said according to Aunt Alice...everyone should say what the mean, and mean what they say...except Aunt Alice. My family already knew way back then that her rules of philosophy only applied when it came to her. Your right...she would have hit the roof if Uncle Frank had an affair! So far I think a lot of her philosophies are a good way to think as long as you already have value and morals instilled in your personality. I hope I'm making sense. I didn't hear about her using all the hot water and keeping them up at night...but she should have given the coat, not so much because of her staying with them, but because she had promised it. Branden may have been her intellectual, but Uncle Frank was her anchor, it was pretty easy for her to replace Branden with Peikoff (intellectually)but she was smart enough to know she would never find another Frank. ~Cathy~

Cathy, your statement about Ayn's philosophy being for her is interesting. Nathanial Branden once said that Ayn came up with her entire philosophy in order to understand herself - words to that effect. That might explain a lot.

[Ellen Stuttle]

Cathy,

The issue I was thinking of about the estate is that of control of Rand's papers, which are an important historical collection. There was something about her "papers" being supposed to go to The Library of Congress. I'm unclear on the details of that, if it was just her manuscripts or the whole collection which was to have been deposited at The Library of Congress. I'm glad that all the material the Rand Archives kept wasn't deposited at The Library of Congress, since I think we'd have had a much longer wait for Rand's early fiction and her letters and journals to be published. Although one can't be sure with details, especially in the journals, still, having what we have provides developmental depth to Rand's thinking.

Why I find Peikoff's being sole heir unfortunate is because of two reasons. I think that if Allan Blumenthal had remained co-heir or someone else (depending on who the someone else was) had been co-named in his stead, there mightn't have been the problem of "sanitizing" changes to Rand's wording in the journals. Second we wouldn't have Leonard Peikoff as the self-appointed "intellectual heir" turning Objectivist epistemology into a disaster area imo with his doctrine of the arbitrary and other details and his theory of induction and support of David Harriman. (That last sentence gets into stuff you might not have heard about yet, technical philosophy issues.)

Regarding particulars of the money, something I'd like to know is what happened such that Ayn and Frank's housekeeper of about 16 years, Eloise Huggins, wasn't left anything in Ayn's will. Did Ayn just not think of making some provision for Eloise, or did she specifically instruct Peikoff to make sure Eloise was taken care of?

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

Cathy, your statement about Ayn's philosophy being for her is interesting. Nathanial Branden once said that Ayn came up with her entire philosophy in order to understand herself - words to that effect. That might explain a lot.

Ginny,

Possibly you're attributing to Nathaniel something Allan Blumenthal said. The latter did say words to the effect you describe. Maybe Nathaniel did too, but I'm not specifically recalling his saying something like that. I think that Nathaniel is still much more in agreement with Objectivism than Allan Blumenthal became in the years after his breaking with Rand.

Ellen

[ginny]

Ellen, you may be right. I was positive it was NB, but maybe it was Allan. Anyway, it seems like an accurate statement. Explains some things.

[Cathy]

Cathy, if you think Branden was replaced by Peikoff your education is not yet complete.

--Brant

The Yugo did not replace the Cadillac

LOL you have a point Brant. My education is far from complete, and I hold the right at anytime to change my views as I go along. This is the way I see it today, tomorrow may very well be different. I am taking baby steps. I take any and all suggestions...at this point anyway. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Cathy,

The issue I was thinking of about the estate is that of control of Rand's papers, which are an important historical collection. There was something about her "papers" being supposed to go to The Library of Congress. I'm unclear on the details of that, if it was just her manuscripts or the whole collection which was to have been deposited at The Library of Congress. I'm glad that all the material the Rand Archives kept wasn't deposited at The Library of Congress, since I think we'd have had a much longer wait for Rand's early fiction and her letters and journals to be published. Although one can't be sure with details, especially in the journals, still, having what we have provides developmental depth to Rand's thinking.

Why I find Peikoff's being sole heir unfortunate is because of two reasons. I think that if Allan Blumenthal had remained co-heir or someone else (depending on who the someone else was) had been co-named in his stead, there mightn't have been the problem of "sanitizing" changes to Rand's wording in the journals. Second we wouldn't have Leonard Peikoff as the self-appointed "intellectual heir" turning Objectivist epistemology into a disaster area imo with his doctrine of the arbitrary and other details and his theory of induction and support of David Harriman. (That last sentence gets into stuff you might not have heard about yet, technical philosophy issues.)

Regarding particulars of the money, something I'd like to know is what happened such that Ayn and Frank's housekeeper of about 16 years, Eloise Huggins, wasn't left anything in Ayn's will. Did Ayn just not think of making some provision for Eloise, or did she specifically instruct Peikoff to make sure Eloise was taken care of?

Ellen

I wonder why she left it all to peikoff to. Was she in her right mind at the time? I'm sure they left it to each other "Frank and Alice" and whoever died first the other was left with it. I think if it would have been Uncle Frank who died last...it would have went much differently. But I am sure both of them did care about Piekoff. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Marna told me after Aunt Alice died, Peikoff sent her $1,000 and said that Ayn would want her to have it..."Ayn" taught him well... ~Cathy~

The more you talk, the more things come up. So Peikoff knew about Marna and had reason to think that Ayn still had some contact with Marna. Recall, Tom alerted us to a letter Ayn sent to Marna in February 1950, but that was a long while before Ayn died, and before Ayn had even met Peikoff.

Ellen

Ellen, I think Peikoff knew about all of us. Yes Aunt Alice was in contact with them up until the day she died. I wonder how much Peikoff really cared about Uncle Frank and Aunt Alice...I really think he was looking out for himself. Truthfully, I am not angry about Peikoff being their heir, what upsets me somewhat is his daughter inheriting my families money just by virtue of her father. I maybe wrong in feeling like this, but my daughter is getting a divorce with 2 babies and works 6 days a week. She struggles everyday. I saw pictures of Peikoff's daughter Kira, on the ski slops, at banquets, ect. I can tell, she hasn't struggle for one red cent. I need to work on not being so envious, but right now I cant help it ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

One reason people who don't have money don't have money is they keep giving it away to appease others in similar circumstances, especially those they know and interact with. This practical psychological-economic egalitarianism fueled in part by envy, in part by love, in part by what might be called "social fear" or cultural norm, is slap-dab up against what Ayn Rand spent her life fighting. It is interesting that Cathy, a Catholic, is now interacting with the lions in the lions' den of "selfishness" who, fortunately, don't find her yummy enough to eat.

--Brant

the triumph of good manners or the impotence of bad ones

Cathy is using ~the force~ but she doesn't know the power of the good side

Brant, I hate to say this...but I didn't understand a thing you wrote. Are you saying that "Ayn" gave her money to Piekoff so she WOULD go against the social norm? As far as I was raised Catholic and am now in the lions den...lions den referring to Atheism? If that's the case...Ill just say a few Hail Marys and Our Fathers LOL....But in any case, yes you all could eat me alive...I'm not that stupid to think you all still couldn't...but I don't think you will I can be very naïve...remember I was sheltered from a lot. But I do always try and find the good in everyone and everything...some I have to try harder at. ~Cathy~

[Ellen Stuttle]

The last letter in the Letters volume and, according to the editor, the last letter AR wrote was to Mimi Sutton:

December 22, 1981

Dear Mimi,

This is to help you with the burden of holiday guests.

I think you are a very brave girl--and I don't like you to be depressed, if it can be helped.

Give your guests something nice for dinner, without worrying about the cost.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year--to you and the family.

Love,

Cathy,

Have you found out what Mimi died from, and if she was ill for a time before she died?

Ellen

[Cathy]

The last letter in the Letters volume and, according to the editor, the last letter AR wrote was to Mimi Sutton:

December 22, 1981

Dear Mimi,

This is to help you with the burden of holiday guests.

I think you are a very brave girl--and I don't like you to be depressed, if it can be helped.

Give your guests something nice for dinner, without worrying about the cost.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year--to you and the family.

Love,

Cathy,

Have you found out what Mimi died from, and if she was ill for a time before she died?

Ellen

That was very nice of Aunt Alice! MiMi was sick with diabetes and that eventually caused her death at 66 years old Wait a minute...do Atheist believe in Christmas? ~Cathy~

[Ellen Stuttle]

Ayn loved Christmas, which she thought of as an excuse for people to give each other presents.

Thanks for the info about what Mimi died from. I also wonder exactly who "the family" are referred to in the letter. Did AR mean Frank's whole remaining family, or was she talking more specifically about Mimi's immediate family?

Do you know yet if Mimi had children? Or any of Agnes' other children?

Ellen