Ukraine and Endless War for Profit

[anthony]

 

Obviously a bloodthirsty Russian missile attack on a railway station, who could argue. One without any tactical motive. Which could only turn public opinionBut who cares. Never let the facts interfere with a good story - the old refrain.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjx9tnc4Ij3AhXEoVwKHb4RDH8QFnoECAIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fworld-europe-61036740&usg=AOvVaw3K8UL2jENGNOhpd48RD3AL

[anthony]

On 4/9/2022 at 6:55 AM, Abiding Dude said:

No. Read the article. The civilians appear to have been shot by Russian soldiers when they had control of the city, not, as claimed by Anthony, killed as collateral damage by Ukrainian bombing.

Not me. I've generalized. I made not a connection between that specific atrocity and 'collateral damage'. You've mixed me up with others. I said, phrased differently: 1. civilian casualties were inevitable. 2. the casualties, counted by quite impartial UN sources (OHCHR) - and assuming numbers not collated thus far - have been extremely and disproportionately low, considering. 3. *Much* of them had to be caused by accidental Russian fire. 4. *Some* of them from accidental Ukrainian 'friendly fire'.

This refutes the hysterical types and entire media who view this as 'genocide'. I conclude that Moscow has conversely and largely, tried to avoid civilian casualties.

I think another two categories could be opened. 5. Deaths of civilians by Russian atrocity 6. Deaths "stage-managed" by Ukraine - or by Ukrainian atrocity on civilians :

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjg8c_76oj3AhVIVsAKHQrwAxEQwqsBegQIAhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D-k3eBQhs3aI&usg=AOvVaw33X36Jdl4dlmW_0_bHFsL4

 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, anthony said:

Not me. I've generalized. I made not a connection between that specific atrocity and 'collateral damage'. You've mixed me up with others.

Tony,

I am letting posts through from this guy, but I am taking out the personal crap he laces them with. I thought of taking this particular phrase of his out because I saw how he distorted you views so he could wax superior in commenting on it.

And, as I believed, you would respond by correcting him.

But I disagree with you that he was mixing you up with others. He wasn't. He was attributing things to you that you don't hold so he can pick a fight with you.

He was trolling.

It's a shame this guy cultivates a bad character in this manner because at times I detect a good mind trying to break free from the interpersonal bullshit and hostility he practices, but I am certain he does it on purpose. We all make our choices.

btw - Earlier today I started having a problem with my own posts going through here on OL. It's taking about 10 minutes after pressing "Submit Reply" for a post to get published and sometimes it even times out. Edits certainly do.

(I'm even having trouble with editing and approving a post in the moderation queue by this new keyboard warrior and bully-wannabe. I do intend to let parts of it through, though, but without all the personal crap and attempts to pick fights. Oddly enough, this dude kind of agrees with us on a few points, especially on there being wrongdoing on all sides. He just wants us to be a dragon he can slay and since we aren't, and he shows he craves a dragon like a crack addict craves crack, he just says we are dragons and starts fighting. I bet he's lonely.  )

Let me know if you are experiencing the same problem with posts hanging that I am. I'm going to send in a support ticket if this doesn't clear up by the end of tomorrow and if anyone else is having this problem, I would like to include it. 

Now, off to click "Submit Reply" and hope this doesn't time out...

Michael

[Abiding Dude]

3 hours ago, anthony said:

Not me. I've generalized. I made not a connection between that specific atrocity and 'collateral damage'. You've mixed me up with others.

Yes, that's correct, sorry. I should have written tmj.

[anthony]

MSK, I had the same difficulty yesterday - checking now to see if it persists.

[anthony]

Right! Still slow..

Trying to get a handle on the antecedents and moral/immoral justifications and self-justifications of this war. When one exclusively identifies with and empathizes with the brave, heroic, etc. "victim" - i.e. from Ukraine's point of view - plenty can be lost not regarding the other's point of view, and empathic insight... 

NATO went ahead, against insistent warnings by Western observers 20 years ago NOT to continue admitting new members. This could only be seen as provocative to paranoid Russians, they said. (Who, with half the population left after the USSR's dissolution, and an economy the size of Italy's reportedly, were far from the threat they once were). It could compare to any fictional democratic country which sees not one, (e.g. as with Cuba)  but growing numbers of adversarial countries used as bases with the capability to be armed with ICBM's, encroaching nearer it's territory. Any self-protecting nation could be driven to pre-emptive strikes or preventive war. "So far, no further!". Why would a Russian leader think and react differently?

Some, strongly advised to altogether disband NATO (hard to see the benefit of that, only possible downsides in future- but certainly: freeze any expansion and state your intent openly).  Their warnings came after the ex-Soviets had closed down the Warsaw Pact - in 'good faith', one might suggest. Where was some good faith response? What was the continuing rationale for NATO? Except to continue covertly pressuring the Russian Federation? "Defense" can quickly turn to offense, then or in later years.  It is apparent NATO had exceeded its brief, and was now involving itself in political-financial dealings in East Europe, Ukraine especially.

(Proficient in that area and background, journalist Peter Hitchens remarked that Ukraine was employed as a "battering ram" by NATO against the Russian Federation).

The institution which from 1949, was a rational cooperation of 12 signing nations against a possible or likely Communist aggressor, is compromised and not much "the good cop" today.

 Putin has been called insane by pundits, all assuming he (the new "Czar of the Russian Empire") wanted to conquer and occupy Ukraine and further, the Baltic nations, one recently predicted ( - within NATO, for god's sake!) with a sub-standard, logistically-stretched Army and insufficient forces against effective resistance with the best modern arms. I think they miss his strategy: I venture Putin knew he could never - and didn't intend to - take Kyiv or overthrow the Gvt. . His army wasn't pushed back from Kyiv, I believe that assault was a feint and distraction for his original and single objective, the Donpas.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

5 hours ago, anthony said:

Right! Still slow..

Tony,

It looks like they fixed it.

There was some backstage drama (not OL related, but instead with the software company), but it looks all good now.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

On 4/9/2022 at 8:44 PM, Abiding Dude said:

From the article you linked to...

Note to readers.

I edited the comment above, just like I did an earlier comment. I allowed the substance through while deleting all the personal stuff.

What does that mean? Simple. This guy likes to mind-read and tell you what you think and believe (while botching it), and then basically say you are stupid and don't know what you are talking about.

I removed all that in the post I quoted above, but unfortunately, my life on earth is not eternal and I cannot waste it babysitting like this. So in the future, if this guy makes any more posts, I may edit his comments, I may let them through unedited (when there is no personal bullshit), or, if there is personal bullshit, I will not let them through and delete them.

If you interact with him, please be aware of this.

You will see his ideas, or not if mixed with bullshit, but you will not see his trolling.

Michael

[Peter]

NATO has standards of behavior and those who don't adhere can be expelled. Notice that it is composed of "freer if not as free as some" members who protect each other. And as this black mark on Russia shows it attempts to protect the world through its existence without direct conflict.

Putin is evil. He is a dictator with a bunch of oligarchs as advisors. I am surprised the Russian people are as satisfied with him or "so it seems." But when a dictator controls the mainstream news, as did Hitler and Stalin, it is hard to get to the truth . . . past the propaganda. But there are reports that some of the truth filters through, not through Radio Free Europe or Voice of America, but from other hand held electronic devices. 

America and NATO are on the right side of history and freedom. I say this with 99 percent certainty. 

[Peter]

Will Russia continue to occupy land that is not theirs, steal, and murder, in the breadbasket of Europe? The best-case scenario should be that the Russian economy collapses and dictator Putin is deposed.

From The New York Post: Ukraine ‘won the battle’ for Kyiv — but Donbas is next, foreign minister warns By Jackie Salo April 10, 2022 12:48 pm Updated Ukraine’s foreign minister claimed Sunday that his country had “won the battle” for Kyiv but warned combat will ramp up in Donbas — as chilling photos showed an 8-mile Russian convoy heading toward the region.

On today’s news: Russia's war will be led by a general with a reputation for attacking civilians April 11, 20227:20 AM ET Heard on Morning Edition. Russia put a new commanding general in charge of operations in Ukraine. The move comes after several top Russian military leaders died during the invasion which has taken longer than Russia expected . . . .

[anthony]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

 But when a dictator controls the mainstream news, as did Hitler and Stalin, it is hard to get to the truth . . . past the propaganda. But there are reports that some of the truth filters through, not through Radio Free Europe or Voice of America ...

Joking, of course. The only Russian propaganda (RT) has been totally shut down to the world. Only  propaganda in the West remains.

Is that censorship somewhat convenient? As with recent pandemic censorship, the people can't be trusted to be exposed to any other point of view. No honest pressman and war correspondent would argue that there's plenty going on in Ukraine being stifled or magnified to fit a single Narrative.

And much of that media coverage remaining is one-sided and belligerent. In an unexpected development, neo-cons and much of the once anti-war Left, came to see eye to eye. Defend Ukraine! (i.e. Attack Russia!).

[anthony]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

 

From The New York Post: Ukraine ‘won the battle’ for Kyiv — but Donbas is next, foreign minister warns By Jackie Salo April 10, 2022 12:48 pm Updated Ukraine’s foreign minister claimed Sunday that his country had “won the battle” for Kyiv but warned combat will ramp up in Donbas — as chilling photos showed an 8-mile Russian convoy heading toward the region.

On today’s news: Russia's war will be led by a general with a reputation for attacking civilians April 11, 20227:20 AM ET Heard on Morning Edition. Russia put a new commanding general in charge of operations in Ukraine. The move comes after several top Russian military leaders died during the invasion which has taken longer than Russia expected . . . .

Morale boosting 'victory' for Ukrainians and for naive onlookers who want their countries 'to go in'. The "battle for Kyiv", would take months, maybe years, and still not be comprehensively won by the invaders. Don't need to be a general to know you do not tie up your troops in a large, dense city, and endless street fighting, with rocket launchers and snipers on every roof top. Combatant casualties would skyrocket, and so would civilian deaths. The destruction enormous. "Donbas is next". Exactly. That was the only aim, Kyiv a diversion.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

Putin is evil. He is a dictator with a bunch of oligarchs as advisors. I am surprised the Russian people are as satisfied with him or "so it seems." But when a dictator controls the mainstream news, as did Hitler and Stalin, it is hard to get to the truth . . . past the propaganda.

Peter,

I want to use these words for the other side of this issue. Not the side that means Putin is good. The other evil side.

The Deep State is evil. It installs puppets, but is a dictator with a bunch of oligarchs as advisors. I am surprised the American people are as satisfied with it or "so it seems." But when a dictator controls the mainstream news, as does the Deep State, it is hard to get to the truth . . . past the propaganda.

People who only look at propaganda will only see propaganda...

Michael

 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

NATO has standards of behavior and those who don't adhere can be expelled.

Peter,

That's not true.

For decades, one of NATO's standards of behavior was that members had to pay their part. Until Trump came along, they did not. And none were expelled. Not one. The freeloaders were allowed to pretend they were moral and superior...

That, to me, is a strong indication of what NATO really is.

Michael

[anthony]

An item that slipped through to BBC. If occurring and reported/published once, you can extrapolate many more atrocities like this (on both sides). Unrecorded and unknown. Murder?

Shades of "evil" all the way down. Binary, black/white narratives and the manner of thinking cover over the realities.

Video appears to show killing of captive Russian soldier

WWW.BBC.CO.UK

---

A video has emerged which purports to show Ukrainian forces shooting a captive Russian soldier.

 

[Peter]

Michael quoted: The Deep State is evil. It installs puppets, but is a dictator with a bunch of oligarchs as advisors. I am surprised the American people are as satisfied with it or "so it seems." But when a dictator controls the mainstream news, as does the Deep State, it is hard to get to the truth . . . past the propaganda.

I don’t come close to thinking “our news” is as true or realistic as a weather report, but Americans and the free world have a lot of validity in their news. We have checks and balances, and many times the reporters with the most truth and a scoop make a lot of money . . . , and celebrity status as a bonus. Liars never prosper, at least with a free press and a free people. Do you think Biden spokesperson Psaki gets away with lies? Or The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, or Fox News? I don’t.

As far as America being a Deep State oligarchy, your freely given uncensored statement, suggests the opposite. It is up to Americans and the free world to discover the lies and see the truth. And with great accuracy we do. We are not an oligarchy. Why gee whiz Michael. Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson would be appalled at you. We Constitutionally vote the bastards out. Let’s get ready to do that in 2022.

What is the truth? Russia invaded and extends its invasion and murdering, to enlarge its territory. Russia is nearing the same monstrous zone as The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. Russia targets civilians. Russia is condemned for their actions by the UN, and the vast majority of the civilized, non-totalitarian world, just not totally here in O land.

Your stance is a contradiction of Rand’s philosophy which we uphold. I don’t get it. What will change yours and Anthony’s minds? Joke from the Weather Channel: Not even a Russian tornado can change your minds. The countries around Russia are afraid and asking for arms and support and to join NATO if possible. Do you think they are crazy or dictated to do that by oligarchs and a demon press too?  

[anthony]

One more, promise.

I'll await the evidence, hopefully soon forthcoming - I admit I'm split in my suspicions. There are several anomalies about that vicious missile attack. "For our children" - messaged on an unexploded rocket? The Kremlin denies and claims that's a Ukrainian-used missile. Why would Russian forces target civilians in the East (or generally anywhere)? Possibly fleeing by train to Russia? Of course Ukraine will publicly admit the responsibility, if it came to that. I know that!

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjAs4vzwIz3AhXNasAKHYyMBgYQFnoECAgQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fworld-europe-61055105&usg=AOvVaw1dwiNV_aHJKzdEIsn-PJ6i

[Peter]

38 minutes ago, anthony said:

Why would Russian forces target civilians in the East (or generally anywhere)?

Why do any terrorists bomb? To create fear and terror. It doesn't need to seem reasonable. Putin is not. He will murder and invade just as bank robbers will barge in, take hostages, murder and loot. Next in line will be the unaligned countries like Slovenia and so they rightly fear that. But small Baltic countries like Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia are in NATO. So Pooh Bear, who fears the boogie-man more? You guessed it. Countries fearing they will be gobbled up like Ukraine.   

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

49 minutes ago, Peter said:

Liars never prosper, at least with a free press and a free people.

Peter,

That's all they do these days.

Hell, Biden still comes out with the "Nazis are fine people" hoax. And this lie has been busted from here to Kingdom come. Trump never said that, but Biden says he did. And Biden used that as part of his campaign schtick. (That's just one example among countless.)

Not only did Liar Biden prosper, he and the lying-ass people behind him stole the presidency.

That's prospering for you.

50 minutes ago, Peter said:

Do you think Biden spokesperson Psaki gets away with lies? Or The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, or Fox News?

Not only do I think that, I know it. I have been showing the lies for years.

Why do you ignore them?

Do you want a list starting with the Russian hoax, Kavanaugh gang raping girls in high school, and so on? 

It's a long, long list.

Granted, some of these lies get busted, but they go on for years before being busted. Believe it or not, that's what happens with the Russian press, too.

53 minutes ago, Peter said:

Your stance is a contradiction of Rand’s philosophy which we uphold. I don’t get it. What will change yours and Anthony’s minds?

Are you actually saying that blanking out lies is part of Rand's philosophy and that you uphold that?

Blanking out lies will not change my mind, that's for sure.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

Why gee whiz Michael. Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson would be appalled at you.

Peter,

I doubt it.

I think they would be appalled at what America turned into.

At least, I agree with the following. I think they would be very pleased at their system of checks and balances--how this keeps the power-monger from fully taking over.

Michael

[Peter]

3 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Are you actually saying that blanking out lies is part of Rand's philosophy and that you uphold that?

That is a diversion. I am saying you cannot condemn Russia's invasion on the one hand and then say in the next breath, but "Ukraine has some bad people too, who with George Soro's money, bothered / harmed our hero, Donald Trump. Therefor I wish them harm, or verbally tolerate it, even if the whole rest of their innocent country is enslaved."   

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

4 minutes ago, Peter said:

That is a diversion. I am saying you cannot condemn Russia's invasion on the one hand and then say in the next breath, but "Ukraine has some bad people too, who with George Soro's money, bothered / harmed our hero, Donald Trump. Therefor I wish them harm, or verbally tolerate it, even if the whole rest of their innocent country is enslaved."

Peter,

A diversion?

A diversion to what? 

As for the rest, it's a good thing I never said what you wrote, right?

There's another alternative, but so far, I haven't seen you acknowledge it.

And getting back to those kids. Which of them would you have die for the gangsters in Ukraine?

Before you go back to a false dichotomy, let me be clear I don't want any of them to die for Putin...

 

Michael

[Peter]

11 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Do you want a list starting with the Russian hoax, Kavanaugh

Did the hoaxes work? This argument reminds me of Rand's testimony at the HUAC "trials." Tell lies, twisted truth, or tell the whole truth, and let the committee of America decide.

[Peter]

3 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

And getting back to those kids. Which of them would you have die for the gangsters in Ukraine?

Straw dog> I wonder if the gangsters fled to Italy or to Tony Soprano's land? Russia did not just maybe, attack, gangsters. How many gangsters out of Ukraine's total population are we talking about? They attacked the whole country of Ukraine. Were the gangsters in opposition to Putin/s dishonest conniving? Therefor, I have to qualify my condemnation of Russia . . .   

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Just now, Peter said:

Did the hoaxes work?

Peter,

As misdirection, they sure did. Don't forget, this wasn't someone saying something then it's done. These hoaxes were lies pounded out in primetime day after day after day for months and sometimes years.

Like with a magician's patter, they kept the attention on one hand while the other did the dirty work.

And what was the dirty work?

They set up their election fraud racket while nobody was looking, then stole the presidency.

There's a lot more, but that's a start.

Michael