Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 27, 2022 Author Share Posted March 27, 2022 9 hours ago, Abiding Dude said: Stop avoiding the question... AD, And you stop trying to boss people around. You are free to do that to people who will put up with that shit. Not here. And don't think that because I just now let that comment through that others like it will be approved. As to you harping, I already mentioned I don't share your frame. So your oversimplified loaded questions laced with a couple of historical facts are of no interest to me as rational discussion. I don't share your hatred. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 27, 2022 Author Share Posted March 27, 2022 13 hours ago, Abiding Dude said: I'm asking for a consistent answer from you. AD, And you have received several. If you can't see the consistency, I can't think for you. EDIT: This is for the reader: This is one more example of what to look for when it occurs. This guy basically comes at you with questions in the category of: Are you still beating your wife or are you not? Hmmmm? Then he flashes a comment or two about history. And, then he goes on with sarcasm or something like telling you to stop avoiding the question or, like he did here, demanding a consistent answer. And, of course, he's quick to tell you what's wrong with your thinking, character, etc. I could dissect how his questions fall into that category, but it's not worth my time just to do a gotcha. If, however, you (OL member) want to know (and you're not just busting my balls ), I will do it. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 27, 2022 Author Share Posted March 27, 2022 5 hours ago, Abiding Dude said: You then contradict yourself... Tony, This kind of thing is what you are going to get with this guy. I don't know if it will get better. Maybe... Probably worse if we let it. (But I won't let it. ) Apparently, he hasn't learned how to speak to others without criticizing them personally because they don't agree with him on his hatred of Putin and Russia. When people are extremely lopsided in their hatred, I haven't found a way to discuss things rationally with them. They either blank out relevant things, mischaractize your words and intentions, or, at times, just make shit up or promote shit they know is made up. And they are quick to turn casual opinions into fighting words. It's like Trump Derangement Syndrome and other targeted hatreds we sometimes come across. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 27, 2022 Share Posted March 27, 2022 13 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Tony, Apparently, he hasn't learned how to speak to others without criticizing them personally because they don't agree with him on his hatred of Putin and Russia. When people are extremely lopsided in their hatred, I haven't found a way to discuss things rationally with them. They either blank out relevant things, mischaractize your words and intentions, or, at times, just make shit up or promote shit they know is made up. And they are quick to turn casual opinions into fighting words. It's like Trump Derangement Syndrome and other targeted hatreds we sometimes come across. Michael Right. Besides gaining lots of experience with people and knowing many pretty well, it's being educated in (O'ist) individualism I credit for not ¬hating¬ 'people', 'nationalities', 'the religious' and 'countries'. Those are abstractions for great numbers of individuals, of course. People, as whole, are an impossible abstraction to assess - the huge majority of them simply living and letting live - but individuals may be judged, while imprecisely. Which means I actually don't think (and make an effort not to) of 'Russia' versus 'Ukraine', a simplistic convention for respective Gvt's and individuals within them, particularly 'a leader'. As with the media reporting "Britain met with Norway today". The signs of Russophobia in the West speaks of a preconceived collective bias against any and all Russians, I don't quite understand. Some, a throwback and clinging to the past. While I must stress a pro forma condemnation of Putin's methods and acts, there are as many injustices committed right now, with conflicts and more deaths in other places which haven't received this attention or outrage. (You will have noticed how the anti-nationalist and globalist Left have suddenly become defensive of Ukraine's "national sovereignty and borders"). All of that is probably a manifestation of the predominant thinking - lazy, deterministic, skeptical and ¬representative¬. Apparently, even more overtly nowadays, the whole represents the individual, and he/she represents the whole. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted March 27, 2022 Share Posted March 27, 2022 Trump cannot win the Nomiation. Trump cannot win the Presidency. No ground game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 27, 2022 Author Share Posted March 27, 2022 1 hour ago, anthony said: All of that is probably a manifestation of the predominant thinking - lazy, deterministic, skeptical and ¬representative¬. Tony, I would change this a bit to say: All of that is probably a manifestation of the predominant thinking - lazy, deterministic, skeptical and ¬representative¬ of those who allow themselves to be blindly vulnerable to the propaganda. The propagandists themselves know exactly what they are doing. Their thinking is as sharp as a tack and they know exactly what they want. As is the thinking of the people who hire them--that whole predator class elite. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 27, 2022 Author Share Posted March 27, 2022 Direct quote from Joe Biden's Poland speech yesterday. He's talking about Putin. "For God’s sake, this man cannot remain in power." Whaaaaaattt? Regime change again? This is all over the news: NYT, WaPo, all of them. At least Blinken is trying to do damage control and say mrphhh mumfffnes girmsnekma plerrrfsyew ... we didn't mean it... People are warning: Stop saying crazy shit. Russia ain't a banana republic. And the mainstream media? No problem. Just send in the nukes. Then sing: It's going to be a hot time in the old town tonight... I'm not even sure this is normative before cognitive. It just sounds brainless to me. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 27, 2022 Share Posted March 27, 2022 3 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Whaaaaaattt? Regime change again? And that’s the way it is, from the news. Some of this may be redundant. There are cell phone videos and newsmen’s camera shots of the shelling and destruction. Many of the targets are residual apartment buildings. And I saw a story just now about Ukrainian women being raped by Russian soldiers. That is another reason why women are fleeing, with their kids. Hopefully, there will be no more stories of that happening. 13,000 Ukrainians are dead since the beginning of fighting in 2014. From CNN: At least 10 million people have been forced to flee their homes in Ukraine following Russia's invasion less than a month ago, the head of the United Nations' refugee agency said Sunday. That figure accounts for almost a quarter of the country's population, which was calculated at 44 million by the World Bank in 2020. end quote Ukrainians of “fighting age” are not being allowed to leave per their leader’s dictate. From Forbes: More than 3.5 million people have fled Ukraine since Russia’s invasion began four weeks ago, the UN’s refugee agency said, a number fast approaching the total 4 million refugees the agency warned could flee Ukraine and lead to “Europe’s largest refugee crisis this century.” end quote Now it is up to 3.6. Another story has Putin’s words quoting how he must restore the Russian empire and Ukraine is a part of Mother Russia and always will be. And on the news, of course, Biden’s words that Michael quoted that Vlad the Impale’r must be ousted as dictator. If there were free and honest elections in Russia would Vlad Stalin be ousted? And our President is still saying he will take in a mere hundred thousand refugees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted March 27, 2022 Share Posted March 27, 2022 “There ain’t no good guy There ain’t no bad guy There’s only you and me, and we just disagree” -Some song by Dave MasonUkrainian Military Unit Systematically Shooting Russian POWs In The Leg, Leaving Some To Die From ShockSouthFront ^ | 3/27/2022 Ukrainian Military Unit Systematically Shooting Russian POWs In The Leg, Leaving Some To Die From Shock FREEREPUBLIC.COM Horrible footage shows Ukrainian troops shooting Russian prisoners of war "War is never black and white and we all knew that. But that doesn’t mean that us or any of our allies should embrace darkness no matter how bad things can get.... "This horrible video filmed by Ukrainian soldiers themself shows them shooting Russian POWs on their legs upon arrival at the holding location. The russian POWs are also beaten until their legs get broken." https://thedailyroster.com/2022/03/27/horrible-footage-shows-ukrainian-troops-shooting-russian-prisoners-of-war/(Not to be confused with this:)"Demoralized Russian troops reportedly shoot themselves in legs to avoid fighting" Demoralized Russian troops reportedly shoot themselves in legs to... NYPOST.COM The Russian troops have been reported to be demoralized in the invasion, which has already claimed as many as 14,000 of them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 27, 2022 Share Posted March 27, 2022 1 minute ago, ThatGuy said: (Not to be confused with this:) I wouldn't doubt that. I saw another story about how the "mindset" of Ukrainians is shifting to pure hatred, beyond reason or the "rules of war." Repent Vlad! Is it possible the smartest man in the room made a mistake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmj Posted March 27, 2022 Share Posted March 27, 2022 That 13k figure is understood to be the number of civilian deaths from Ukrainian shelling of the brake-away 'states' in Eastern Ukraine since 2014, the year the brake-away states voted for independence from Ukraine after a color revolution that ousted the Kremlin allied government in Keeve. Doesn't have a shifted mindset feel to it, really. These are not the droids you are looking for 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 27, 2022 Share Posted March 27, 2022 From The Wall Street Journal: . . . Russia’s firepower is currently concentrated on Mariupol, a strategically important city linking Russian-controlled parts of eastern Ukraine with territory Moscow has captured in the south. Thousands have fled Mariupol, while those left behind endure constant Russian shelling and survive without adequate food, water or medical supplies . . . . end quote My theory is that Vlad Putin wants to make Ukrainian cities uninhabitable. The people who hate him will leave by necessity. Then he will repopulate and rebuild a small section of the Russian Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 27, 2022 Share Posted March 27, 2022 From MSN Bing: genocide [ˈjenəˌsīd] NOUN the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. "a campaign of genocide." [more] synonyms: racial killing · massacre · wholesale slaughter · mass slaughter · wholesale killing · indiscriminate killing · mass murder · mass homicide · mass destruction · annihilation · extermination · elimination · liquidation · eradication · decimation · butchery · bloodbath · bloodletting · pogrom · ethnic cleansing · holocaust · Shoah · slaying · battue · hecatomb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 27, 2022 Author Share Posted March 27, 2022 59 minutes ago, Peter said: From CNN: At least 10 million people have been forced to flee their homes in Ukraine following Russia's invasion less than a month ago... Peter, That's odd. I thought it was 780 million. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmj Posted March 27, 2022 Share Posted March 27, 2022 My theory is he wants to retain control of the Black Sea and the pipelines in the regions and demilitarize any 2 nd world country that gets in his way, just a theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 27, 2022 Share Posted March 27, 2022 Just now, Michael Stuart Kelly said: That's odd. I thought it was 780 million. Why would CNN misquote your "exact figure?" Obviously, you are kidding . . . but they were not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 27, 2022 Author Share Posted March 27, 2022 1 minute ago, Peter said: but they were not. Peter, Obviously. They were just lying. CNN lies. There are a lot of people fleeing, but I'll get my stats from somewhere else. Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 27, 2022 Author Share Posted March 27, 2022 1 hour ago, Peter said: And that’s the way it is... Peter, Let's do a Charles Dickens kind of thing where you are Scrooge looking over the lives of different people. And you get to choose which young American men and women get to die in order to fight a regime change war in Ukraine and Russia. You don't get to look at a statistic and ignore the people. You have to look at the faces of the young people you would send to their deaths. You have to see them in their family life, being hugged and listen to them as they think out loud about what they want to do in life. And you chose, say, one thousand of them. You have to. Your ghost ushers will not let you choose less. Then the regime war comes and those young people die. And both countries continue being a mess, except crony government-private companies are able to move in and set up shop. Would you sleep well at night knowing you had struck a blow for freedom in the world? Would you buy stock in the crony government-private companies? Or would the faces of those young people haunt your nightmares? Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 27, 2022 Share Posted March 27, 2022 9 hours ago, Peter said: 13,000 Ukrainians are dead since the beginning of fighting in 2014. You are conflating the previous ongoing civil war (2014-2022) between Ukraine's govt. and the breakaway regions - with the present invasion war (one month old). And more: Nearly all the civilian casualties within those "13,000" were Russian-Ukrainians of Donbas killed by besieging Kyiv forces. Ukrainians - not Putin's forces, let's be clear - killed Ukrainian civilians in the East. The two regions by a hefty majority had voted for unilateral independence. Supported by Russia - opposed, obviously, by Kyiv. (You might sort out who "initiated force" on whom by reading the dense Wiki page on the Donbas conflict ... it's not easy to assess). "The armed conflict in Eastern Ukraine started in 2014. It has since killed over 14,000 people. The war pits Ukrainian government forces against Russia-backed separatists for control over much of the two heavily industrialised regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, also known as Donbas". CNN: "More than 14,000 people have died in the conflict in Donbas since 2014. Ukraine says 1.5 million people have been forced to flee their homes, with most staying in the areas of Donbas that remain under Ukrainian control and about 200,000 resettling in the wider Kyiv region". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 27, 2022 Share Posted March 27, 2022 9 hours ago, Peter said: From MSN Bing: genocide [ˈjenəˌsīd] NOUN the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. "a campaign of genocide." [more] synonyms: racial killing · massacre · wholesale slaughter · mass slaughter · wholesale killing · indiscriminate killing · mass murder · mass homicide · mass destruction · annihilation · extermination · elimination · liquidation · eradication · decimation · butchery · bloodbath · bloodletting · pogrom · ethnic cleansing · holocaust · Shoah · slaying · battue · hecatomb I find the numbers, impartially, from random sources, but to no avail. They are brushed aside. Here is another source. Does this figure suggest "genocide" or "indiscriminate killing" (etc.etc.) to anyone? During *a war*? 977 [+?] Nine hundred and seventy seven. Collated/verified four days ago, but one should get the picture. Number of civilian casualties during the war in Ukraine 2022 Published by Statista Research Department, Mar 24, 2022 The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 977 civilian deaths during Russia's military attack on Ukraine as of March 22, 2022. Of them, 81 were children. Furthermore, 1,594 people were reported to have been injured. However, OHCHR specified that the real numbers could be higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 Man, does Cernovich nail it. Quote Zelensky: It’s not too late to turn over the Biden corruption files. You know you wish you had given them to Trump. None of this would be happening. Sometimes something is so obvious and staring you in the face, you miss it. But think about this tweet. Then reexamine the Ukraine mess. Then see if things don't start making better sense. It's not the whole story. There are still those pesky bioweapons labs the mainstream goons don't want to call bioweapons labs, and there is the danger Putin could let all this go to his head and become a wildcard with those nukes of his, but this is a huge chunk of the story. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 Did anyone really doubt this would happen? Zelensky opens the door for Ukraine neutrality in Russia peace deal Zelensky opens the door for Ukraine neutrality in Russia peace deal WWW.AXIOS.COM Ukraine would not be able to join NATO if it adopted a neutral stance. Despite the puffery, the actual resolution keeps getting closer and closer... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 5 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Zelensky opens the door for Ukraine neutrality in Russia peace deal So you think “neutrality” by the initiation of force, is Putin’s goal? Or more explicitly, is it neutrality by the death of people, destroyed cities, leaving widows crying, raped or dead is OK . . .for OL? It's almost like some of you would sanction the U.S. going after Canada or Mexico. From DW, Made for Minds: The European Union has promised that all war refugees from Ukraine will be accepted . . . . Estimates by the United Nations and refugee organizations put the number of people fleeing the Russian invasion at 4 to 7 million. How many will then actually want to cross Ukraine's borders depends entirely on how the military situation in this war develops. Yet how long they want or need to stay depends on who wins or ends this war. If Russia stops its attacks and withdraws, the families could also quickly return to their fathers, sons and brothers, EU officials believe. end quote I find it odd that so many on this site of reason think “almost nothing” is happening in Ukraine or that this “situation” is just Russia settling some old scores. It is genocide. Does anyone know the estimated numbers of displaced Ukrainians? Does anyone know the number of dead Ukrainians and Russian mobsters / soldiers? Does anyone know the number of Ukrainian refugees in Poland? Does anyone know the number of Ukrainian refugees in Slovakia? Does anyone know the number of Ukrainian refugees in Hungary? Does anyone know the number of Ukrainian refugees in Romania? Does anyone know the number of Ukrainian refugees who will eventually make it to Germany? I am sure you can go to the best sites you know and find the answers. Does anyone know Russia’s end game? What do you think Ayn Rand would think and say about the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Of course, Ayn Rand might be prejudiced. Prejudiced just like the European Union and the membership of the United Nations? Peter Sorry for the errors in penmanship because it is going on 3am here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 Anybody thinks 977 civilian deaths is genocide. I'll tell you genocide: "Rwanda genocide of 1994, planned campaign of mass murder [est. as much as 800,000] in Rwanda that occurred over the course of some 100 days in April–July 1994. The genocide was conceived by extremist elements of Rwanda's majority Hutu population who planned to kill the minority Tutsi population and anyone who opposed those genocidal intentions". If the Russians -really- wanted to settle old scores (e.g. for the several thousand Russian-Ukrainian civilian lives lost committed by Ukraine troops against Donbas) - why did they not hit the soft targets, all the trains and buses carrying out refugees? I repeat, civilian casualties have been remarkably low this entire month. For an intense war, not a picnic. That's not accidental. And some casualties (post- invasion), have been of the rebel separatists in the East - by the Ukraine military. The inflammatory talk on media and by followers of propaganda, about "genocide" or, incidents of rape (if the second is true - I won't argue) is playing into the hands of those who want a nuclear solution to Putin . Excellent, Zelensky is offering a way out for both sides - neutrality, etc., a part of Putin's initial demand package. Just maybe, if he'd noticed Russians massing on the borders for the last year, and taken the threat seriously, he could have contacted Putin sooner? And asked - "What are you doing here, what do you want? Okay, that's do-able, that's negotiable, and this is what Ukraine wants in return". No excuse for the invasion - however: Zelensky left the door open, by not going the route of diplomatic dialogue before it began. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 6 hours ago, Peter said: So you think “neutrality” by the initiation of force, is Putin’s goal? Or more explicitly, is it neutrality by the death of people, destroyed cities, leaving widows crying, raped or dead is OK . . .for OL? It's almost like some of you would sanction the U.S. going after Canada or Mexico. Peter, Which American life would you exchange for a Ukrainian life? I, personally, would not exchange one American life for 100 or more Ukrainian lives. I am not a trader in death, anyway. And don't forget, we are talking about using the American military. When I use that lens, I an totally uninterested in who used force over there. I have already showed my disapproval of Putin and his pals and my disapproval of the Ukrainian government. So, I have registered that I disapprove their initiation of force. Both of them--meaning in a war between gangsters. And what do I do with that disapproval in the current Ukraine Russia situation? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Not my problem. I certainly will not help gin up a pro-war attitude in the American public that will result in young Americans losing their lives over that. In fact, I strongly oppose such measures. Here's a questions for you. Do you believe the USA should invade Ukraine to kick out the Russians or invade Russia to kick out Putin? If so, why? Altruism? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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