Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 And if people want to use the US military to meddle in the affairs of gangster states, even fights between them, why not go whole hog? After all, every one of these initiate force all the time. Quote Vladimir Putin should not remain in power. Neither; Xi Jinping Recep Erdogan Bashar al-Assad Alexander Lukashenko Kim Jong-Un Nicolás Maduro Min Hlaing Daniel Ortega Khalifa Nahyan Ali Khamenei Tamim Al Thani Miguel Canel Al-Sisi Paul Kgame MBS Nguyen Trong Who am I missing? Unless these become a direct threat to the USA, which American life is worth trading to teach them a lesson they will never forget, maybe? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Unless these become a direct threat to the USA, which American life is worth trading to teach them a lesson they will never forget, maybe? And how about this beauty? The US under Obama and Hillary Clinton went straight into Libya to resolve a gangster war. And they showed the hell out of Gaddafi. We came. We saw. He died. Haw haw haw haw haw haw haw... The result? There is now an open human slave market in Libya. How does initiation of force fit into that? Notice that the same underlying people who did that want to do the Ukraine Russia thing. They are the same ones doing the propaganda right now to get there. No thanks. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 Michael I think Dennis Prager outlined the false premise well in his recent article, ending by stating : "America first, agreed; America, alone - leave me out". Worded as near as I recall. Isn't that what has always dogged America - that false alternative/dichotomy - "interventionism v. isolationism"? (Response - neither). If it's objectively good, and properly self-interested (non-sacrificial) for the US, short term and long, my impression it has always turned out well for other countries, long term. Can't think of any counter examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 45 minutes ago, anthony said: "America first, agreed; America alone - leave me out". Tony, America is not alone. It's a member of NATO. Rules were made and agreed to. Were the obeyed? No. Besides, how many times do people have to say it? Ukraine is not in NATO. Thus, this Russia Ukraine mess is not the problem of the US government. I'm done with sanctioning agreements like that, agreements where the real intent, evidenced by how they are carried out, is conquest instead of living up to the terms. Notice how with these agreements the US, little by little, always encroaches? Always. China does it, too. Russia used to. These days, Russia is reacting to encroachments, not acting. Not that its reactions are good. When encroachments reach a tipping point, Russia throws out the whole thing and outright invades. If the US government wishes to conquer Ukraine or Russia, it should put the issue to the American people and do what they want. I don't have any patience anymore for this squishy word mess the elites play that always results in endless wars for profit. I respect the lives of other Americans too much for that. And there's this. While everyone is buckling to the propaganda about Ukraine, talking about Ukraine, worried about Ukraine even though most of the people couldn't find Ukraine on a map if you paid them, there is a real US commitment, Taiwan, that is being set up for a fall. When that starts happening, just watch what else happens. Watch the people who war-monger today about Ukraine go squishy on Taiwan. After all, they will not want to ruffle the feathers of China... So why would this happen? Why the double standard? The answer is easy. BlackRock CEO says Russian invasion of Ukraine has 'put an end' to globalization BlackRock CEO says Russian invasion of Ukraine has 'put an end' to THEHILL.COM BlackRock CEO Larry Fink declared Thursday that Russia's invasion of Ukraine has "put an end" to the globalization seen in recent decades, while predicting the "magnitude of Russia’s actions will Especially this paragraph: Quote "Russia’s aggression in Ukraine and its subsequent decoupling from the global economy is going to prompt companies and governments worldwide to re-evaluate their dependencies and re-analyze their manufacturing and assembly footprints," Fink wrote. "And while dependence on Russian energy is in the spotlight, companies and governments will also be looking more broadly at their dependencies on other nations." (Ain't Fink a sweetheart?) So the real reason appears. Russia ain't playing fair with the Davos crowd according to the Davos crowd. Why? Initiation of force? Nah... Hell, they don't mind that. Just look at their history. The real objection is that Russia refuses to bow down to them. What's worse, when they act against Russia, it refuses to die. Instead, it bites back. If Russia, by waking up companies and countries around the world that there is a way to do business that does not involve that damn globalism scam and attempted takeover, I say bring it on. I prefer to clean up the mess from that (and there will be a mess) than try to clean up the mess from globalism. At least I doubt there will be any new worldwide bioweapons pandemics and vaccine scams going the other route. Sticking with the Davos crowd is almost a guarantee for more. Does anyone want a principle? How about Law of Identity? The Davos crowd is Nazi at root. And Nazis do Nazi policies no matter how they word it. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 3 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Do you believe the USA should invade Ukraine to kick out the Russians or invade Russia to kick out Putin? No. I have never even come close to hinting at that. However, if the Russians kick Putin out, good for them, or would you rather Putin remain despotic, dictator for life? I don't understand why supposed Objectivists are on his side or "just neutral." Has any Oist ever before supported an invading monster before? This is a first. You are not being neutral or isolationist, in my opinion. On one side we have the free world condemning Putin and on the other side we have some supporters of Ayn Rand . . . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 Deep dive? You guys support Putin . . . sort of . . . because of actions detrimental to Trump that occurred in Ukraine? Follow your leader, President Trump and never support Russia. Just be diplomatic about it, or not . . . just like Trump says what he thinks but remains diplomatic like a leader of the free world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 25 minutes ago, Peter said: ... if the Russians kick Putin out, good for them Peter, I'm fine with that. And how about if Ukrainians kicked out Zelenski? Are you OK with that? I am... But not one American life for that result in the current situation. Whoever wants to buy either result with American lives should stipulate which Americans they would sacrifice for it. Which living, breathing Americans they would have die. Will they even try? Heh... That doesn't feel good... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 Michael wrote. “Which living, breathing Americans they would have die.” end quote Weird. That sounds like American isolationism before WWI and WWII. Are Ukrainians, the French or British worth one American life? Rand quote: There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide. end quote Perhaps today in a quote she would include all murderous dictatorships that enslave people. If she were alive today, would she condemn this dictatorial Russian invasion? Hell, yes. We would see a blistering article in one of her publications. She would instantly shift from those two “isms” since communism is almost gone, to countries like North Korea and now Russia. I will rephrase her quote: What are the Russian means of achieving their ultimate end, to enslave men by force? Does anyone doubt Russia will stop with Ukraine? Will they “peck away” at the rest of Europe or just outright invade other countries? I think she and I would agree: Condemn this invasion and do not lightly sanction. On the good side, not trading with Russia and their monstrous expenditures for war, may impoverish their mafia, Nazi style oligarchs and government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 Peter, Why do you keep trying to make it sound like I support Putin or the invasion? I don't. Do you not understand what I write? Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 Michael wrote: Why do you keep trying to make it sound like I support Putin or the invasion? Could have fooled me! Joke. Another thought and then I will go about my business, for now. Ukraine is called the “breadbasket of Europe.” If Russia takes it over by invasion and murder, will we and our allies buy Russian / stolen Ukrainian products? I am sure Putin has multiple goals, territorially and economically. What are the two prerequisites on American Crime Drama? He is a thief and a murderer! From Bing. The “breadbasket of Europe” refers to the fertile lands of Ukrainian territory. The chornozem (black earth) of the Ukrainian steppes, combined with the climate of the region make it uniquely suited to the growth of agricultural crops and grain in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, Peter said: If Russia takes it over by invasion and murder, will we and our allies buy Russian / stolen Ukrainian products? Peter, Is there any doubt? Ask the Bidens if they mind stealing from Ukraine... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 Michael wrote: “Ask the Bidens if they mind stealing from Ukraine...” Sorry Michael. You are so wrong. So, Putin and the Bidens are on a par as concerns evil? I disagree. And from the beginning, the title of this thread, “Ukraine and Endless War for Profit.”? The title of this thread points fingers and condemnations from day one and ignores the evil of Russia’s war and invasion. It shunts scrutiny and equates some Ukrainian crooks as on a par with Russia’s invasion and that is in no way objective. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Peter said: So, Putin and the Bidens are on a par as concerns evil? Peter, No. The Bidens are far more evil. They live among the good with the sole aim of stealing and polluting it. They are the equivalent of cancer. Putin is a beast. You can fight it head on. You can see what you are fighting. The Bidens are sweet poison. After you have swallowed their stuff, even though it might have tasted good, you are a goner. Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 Here's another aspect. Regardless of the reason, Americans who die in war are just as dead either way. There is only one way to keep them from being killed. Not sending them in the first place. That's why it's super-important to be rational about going into regime change wars. If China invades Taiwan, I'm all for war. And war to win, not this endless war for profit horseshit. But Russia and Ukraine? Killing Americans over nothing at all in America's interests? Hell no. Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 30 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: The Bidens are far more evil. This is important, so let's take this out of the abstract and put it into the concrete. And remove intent and motivation since we all know the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Then you, the reader, decide. Which is more evil? 1. Invading a neighboring country? Or... 2. Doing lucrative business with the invader at the time he is invading and funding bioweapons labs so you can get a cut from both? Putin did 1. The Bidens did 2. You decide which is more evil. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 45 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: The Bidens are sweet poison. Interesting timing. A story just came out that a Russian and Ukrainians in "talks" were poisoned and their skin is peeling. It was airborne poison. The story thought it was "Russian hardliners." Bribes, stealing and corruption, mostly alleged vs. invasion and murder? On a scale of one to ten with ten being the most evil . . . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 13 minutes ago, Peter said: Bribes, stealing and corruption, mostly alleged vs. invasion and murder? Peter, There is plenty of murder to go around on all sides. Look under that rug... The murders don't go away just because the people you get information from sweep them there. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 27 minutes ago, Peter said: A story just came out that a Russian and Ukrainians in "talks" were poisoned and their skin is peeling. It was airborne poison. The story thought it was "Russian hardliners." Ground News has a couple dozen stories on this tale: Roman Abramovich and Ukrainian peace negotiators 'poisoned' after talks in Kyiv GROUND.NEWS Roman Abramovich reportedly survived an alleged poisoning attempt earlier this month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 7 minutes ago, william.scherk said: Ground News has a couple dozen stories on this tale: William, Gotta wait for fog of war to disperse to find out what is really going on. Or rely on truth by consensus and propaganda. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 I heard a really cute comment just now on the nature of Putin. It was from Brandon Weichert on Steve Bannon's show. Weichert: “Putin Not a Defender of the West” RUMBLE.COM Weichert: “Putin Not a Defender of the West” He said Putin is not the Pat Buchanan of Russia like many are calling him. He is the George Bush of Russia. That is so perfect, it's painful... Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 26 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: The murders don't go away just because the people you get information from sweep them there. I don’t think Biden is close to the Clintons "scores." Remember all those bodies turning up with links to Bill and Hillary? Meanwhile, I am waiting for our talks on foreign policy to start in Rehoboth Beach, Delaware. Joe I want to thank you . . . and I want to thank the Academy Awards and Michael for making me look like I am always right . . . On Fox: Leon Panetta: “Putting will be weakened . . . Russians will face a difficult position . . . Russian people will decide Putin’s future . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 3 minutes ago, Peter said: I don’t think Biden is close to the Clintons "scores." Peter, That is the only part of the rug you looked under? You simply turned up about an eight of an inch on a corner, if that... Like I said, the murders don't go away because nobody talks about them. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 27 minutes ago, william.scherk said: Ground News has a couple dozen stories on this tale: William, Just to keep things in a factual perspective, this poisoning happened around March 3. Not yesterday. Not the day before. Today is March 28 and only now is it becoming a thing in the press. Yet there is still no agreement on who did it. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 "Ayn Rand"? "I will name only one principle, the opposite of the idea which is so prevalent today and is responsible for the spread of evil in the world. "That principle is: "One must never fail to pronounce moral judgment". And adds, "But to pronounce moral judgment is an enormous responsibility. To be a judge, one must have an unimpeachable character ...etc. "[71, vos] And elsewhere, "Emotions are not tools of cognition" (not tools of judgment, too). She said also that any free country has the right to attack and depose a dictatorship, the right, not a duty. To do so as a moral imperative, I interpret this, at certain cost of a free nation's lives, will be self-sacrificial. Holding hierarchical values, of prioritized allies and alliances and friendships and so on, should determine the amount of involvement and assistance in other nations' conflicts. The potential, or a high risk, is of escalation of a war into an unthinkable consequence, and that would be the maximum self-sacrifice. Cool heads now, above outraged emotions, would be "Objectivist". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjGg7LLo-n2AhXXEcAKHVRjBQoQFnoECF4QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Fworld%2Feurope%2Fukraines-turbulent-history-since-independence-1991-2022-01-31%2F&usg=AOvVaw22_FxwP-Vk6mcrW3CMPG-U Interesting. Seems Ukraine claimed its independence from Moscow in 1991 with a public referendum. I didn't know. But referenda for independence from Kyiv, by people in the Crimea and in the Donbass - do not carry legal weight?! What's good for the goose is not good for the gander, yeah? This place gets more complicated as you get deeper. To help, a simplified potted timeline since 1991. A couple of items: 2008: NATO promises Ukraine it will one day join the alliance. Jan 2021: Zelenskiy appeals to Biden, now US president, to let Ukraine join NATO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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