anthony Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 Pacifism as doctrine practiced to he nth degree is suicidal, i.e. one would not defend one's life if at risk of taking an others. At a national level, assuming a free nation, this isn't problematic. The pacifists or peace advocates in the country will not be ordered or required to defend the nation. A voluntarist armed forces, resolute and well-trained would do so. Those who don't want to fight don't have a duty to do so and have every right not to. Dennis May makes the collectivist error in envisaging a country which would be largely/predominantly pacifist. Therefore, that nation would fall to enemies he believes. Hasn't he heard of 'the division of labor'? Besides, freedom isn't only defended with guns, the pen works too, as does a civilian populace keeping the 'home front' going - freedom in action. This Ukraine war is generating a sentimentalist militancy among a high proportion of the British, who seem to want to recapture days of lost glory and national hubris, in a conflict that has nothing to do with self defense of G. Britain - or with honoring a military alliance with the other nation.. They ought to recall their history. They've been in the collective grip of Jingoism before. 100+ years ago, "conscientious objectors" were vilified, ostracized and attacked by the war-mongering public as cowards for not wanting to go into continental Europe to kill for God and Country. Most 'conchies' were conscripted by the Gvt. anyhow and died also "in the trenches". I read, one-half of the English young men of that generation were killed in WW1. Pacifism v. militant Jingoism = false dichotomy. Pacifism is ultimately self-immolation, Jingoism will ultimately cause self-immolation. (Sacrificial altruism goes all the way down). Moral self-defense, either to rightfully protect one's own life from assault, resulting in possibly killing an attacker, or by professional soldiers valuing the nation's survival at some risk of their own lives, the objective solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwju58v7u573AhXUSsAKHS_zAK0QFnoECAoQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aljazeera.com%2Fnews%2F2022%2F4%2F8%2Frussia-suspended-from-un-human-rights-body-how-countries-voted&usg=AOvVaw0Tr_MN61GIxJcrrbUoy5ha Russia suspended by UNHRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted April 19, 2022 Author Share Posted April 19, 2022 Just to keep focus on what this Russia Ukraine thing is really about, here's a headline that says it all. With Around $20 Billion in Aid to Ukraine – How Much Was Provided to Ukraine and How Much Went to “The Big Guy”? With Around $20 Billion in Aid to Ukraine - How Much Was Provided to Ukraine and How Much Went to "The Big Guy"? WWW.THEGATEWAYPUNDIT.COM This is what happens when corrupt politicians steal the White House. The American people have no idea who is running the show behind the scenes of the Biden regime. Americans know that the... Just remember that there are a lot big guys, not just idiot Biden, and this is 100% true. What's more, it's the long and short of it all. All. Nothing more. What? Did someone say NATO? Once Germany stops buying fuel from Russia in mass (and that's just one thing among so very many), that might be something relevant to talk about. But Germany is not going to do that. And France? What's it going to do about Russia? Hell, ask Macron... Heh... For now, NATO is nothing but a smokescreen for the grift. They don't give a shit about the Ukrainians or Russians who die. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 9 hours ago, Jules Troy said: I think the most effective way for a dictator to truly know people are unhappy about him is that half second or so before a bullet enters his forehead… He should know before that. I think the shock would instantly knock him unconscious, and sound travels slower than a bullet . . . but nyet, I have no qualms with killing that murderer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 Oh ho! The economic freeze on totalitarian Russian is working. Moscow city to lose a bunch of jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 “Now we can state that the Russian forces have started the battle for the Donbas that they have been getting ready for a long time,” President Volodymyr Zelensky said in a video message, referring to the contested eastern region that many analysts expect will see some of the bloodiest fighting of the war. “A very large part of the entire Russian army is now focused on this offensive.” Yet, Putin STILL targets civilians in some of his attacks. I think a war crimes tribunal would be a welcome sight. He is as bad and evil as the Soviet Union and The Nazi’s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 On 4/19/2022 at 6:59 AM, Peter said: “Now we can state that the Russian forces have started the battle for the Donbas that they have been getting ready for a long time,” President Volodymyr Zelensky said in a video message, referring to the contested eastern region that many analysts expect will see some of the bloodiest fighting of the war. “A very large part of the entire Russian army is now focused on this offensive.” Yet, Putin STILL targets civilians in some of his attacks. I think a war crimes tribunal would be a welcome sight. He is as bad and evil as the Soviet Union and The Nazi’s. Confirming what I estimated, the Donbas, South and East Ukraine, was always Putin's single territorial objective. The rest of the assault a tactical bluff and misdirection which every western observer, in 'confirmation bias' citing Russia's prior world aggression, fell for. Their militant rhetoric: Putin wanted to take Kyiv, defeating and occupying Ukraine, then into Poland, on to the Baltic States (um, Sweden, Finland too) - you name it! - has been a fantasy, disinformation by war-mongers and fear mongers. NOW, knowing this true aim of Putin's, the question is: would the West "go in"? To lead the defense of a portion of Ukraine - not, of "Europe"? What the hell for? Why the hell even arm Ukraine with "lethal aid"? The Donbas already was and IS predominantly "Russian", in all but by international law and recognition.. It is Kyiv's war, sympathetic as anyone will be to the Ukrainians' plight and condemnatory of Putin. They will need to find a way to settle a treaty soon, while they still have a bargaining position, and resist counting on pulling in the West any deeper. Kyiv and many Ukrainian people did their part to create this war. 2014, and the Maidan revolt orchestrated to overthrow their democratically elected Russia-friendly Gvt and President, violent riots and counter riots across the country until that govt. capitulated: the true beginning of this conflict. An un-Democratic aggression by purportedly pro-EU revolutionaries who apparently couldn't wait for the next elections to get their way. They over-ruled with force and intimidation, the majority electorate, among whom were the Russian-leaning/speaking Ukrainian citizens. The alienated, disenfranchised East Ukrainians, with good cause, now lost interest in remaining with Ukraine, under Kyiv, so conducted their own election/referendum for self-rule. The new Govt. attacked the East for daring a break away, to prevent and preempt them. Russian irregulars instigated by Moscow taking advantage of the situation, entered on the side of the Donbas - and so on - one almost unbroken, escalating conflict and the loss of 13,000 lives, until the present invasion, THE biggest 'escalation' yet, more likely to follow. Seldom was so much fear and loathing and rhetoric - for a quite avoidable war. Inherent, baked-in Russophobia by NATO and Ukrainians, much the fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted April 19, 2022 Author Share Posted April 19, 2022 Tony, I still think there is a lot of proof in Ukraine of the gangster activities of the predator class, including top American politicians. Destroying that proof is also part of this mix among the war-mongers. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmj Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 We keep hearing it's Putin's fault! that fertilizer production and distribution could be curtailed and affect crop production adding to worsening food production and market distortions. Maybe throwing 40 million Ukrainians under a meat grinding bus isn't enough to make the narrative stick , wtf is going on ? Major railroad company curtailing shipments of fertilizer ahead of crucial spring planting season – LeoHohmann.com LEOHOHMANN.COM Decision adds to worries about coming food shortages CF Industries, the nation's largest manufacturer of fertilizers, is warning its... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 21 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Tony, I still think there is a lot of proof in Ukraine of the gangster activities of the predator class, including top American politicians. Destroying that proof is also part of this mix among the war-mongers. Michael You will know much more than me, having followed many trails to this point, I am far behind but I'm coming across the evidence myself, so I can well believe that. That absolute tie-up of Big Corp, Silicon Valley and sections of the US government and politicians is still sinking in, Michael. It is that massive. One small doubt I have with the gangsters - "elitist looters", I'm considering - covering their tracks in Ukraine, is I don't think they are capable of feeling embarrassment at being caught out. There's something inhuman in that incapacity to ¬see themselves¬ nor to feel shame or recognize their hypocrisy. Anyhow, they probably rely on their pet media to gloss over or drown out their foul activities. Will they ever get their come-uppance in Court? Their only concern seems grabbing wealth and their public ratings, the second handers. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 You may find deeper connections to a vast political-corporative collusion (not even concealed, virtuously bragged about!) in this contribution by one truth-seeking, individualist-anarchist on Schwab and other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 Haven't gone past half way, but this ex-diplomat has a grasp of events not seen elsewhere. What a find: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted April 20, 2022 Author Share Posted April 20, 2022 Tony, Aaron Mate is a progressive of the ideological type who is often interviewed by Jimmy Dore (I sometimes post videos of Jimmy here on OL). I may disagree with him on some issues, but he's not a predator class leftie. He's serious, does not lie to persuade, and sticks to facts. The man he is interviewing, Chas Freeman, was Assistant Secretary of Defense under Clinton and Ambassador to Saudi Arabia under Bush senior. I only saw about 15 minutes so far, but what he is saying about Ukraine and Russia is essentially what I have been getting from Steve Bannon. It sounds rational. It looks at both sides and sees the faults and virtues of both. He didn't outright say this is hostilities among gangsters, but I get the tone that he would not dispute that characterization except to say it was an oversimplification. Freeman is especially critical of NATO for promising Zelinski the moon, then backing out once Putin got goaded into action. And he doesn't quite act perplexed as to why is there such jingoism to go to war in the West, make a regime change in Russia, etc., but he does act as if he is frustrated by it. He thinks the war should end by a negotiated peace. (Like I said, rational.) Well, the following article should explain the lopsided view in the West. We are run by gangsters who want to sell ordinance to the government and get government corruption payoffs no matter who dies. Basically, they want their money and fuck the soldiers and civilians who die. It's even gotten to this point: Another Impeachable Offense? US Keeps Sending Military Weapons to Ukraine – But Doesn’t Know What Happens to Them Another Impeachable Offense? US Keeps Sending Military Weapons to Ukraine - But Doesn't Know What Happens to Them WWW.THEGATEWAYPUNDIT.COM Elections have consequences. Stolen elections have disastrous consequences. * * * * * * * * * * * * Before fleeing Afghanistan in a... Quote Now the Biden Administration is sending hundreds of millions of US dollars in weapons to Ukraine — But they don’t know what happens to these weapons. Ukraine is ranked as one of the most corrupt countries in a recent Corruption Perceptions Index and the most corrupt country in Europe. They're not even bothering to deliver most of it. They're just pocketing the money, getting it while the getting is good. I wonder if the weapons black market is suddenly getting a lot of product... I bet you there's plenty of paper to justify all this, though... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 27 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: He didn't outright say this is hostilities among gangsters, but I get the tone that he would not dispute that characterization except to say it was an oversimplification. From CBS News, Washington — Filippo Grandi, the United Nations high commissioner for refugees, estimated Sunday that 1.5 million Ukrainians have left the country in the wake of Russia's invasion, which he said is the fastest exodus of people since World War II. end quote From Bing: More than 2.5 million Ukrainians have fled their country since Russia’s invasion. Here’s where they are now . . . From The United Nations: Refugees are also crossing to neighbouring countries to the west, such as Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Hungary and Moldova. The UN says that as of 22 March, 3.6 million people have left Ukraine: Some people have travelled from Moldova into Romania and so are included in both countries' totals, the UN says. How are refugees leaving Ukraine? end quote Is this a “just war” or "war among gangsters" or atrocities by a totalitarian Russia? Personally, I would look at the destruction, the deaths, the territory Russia will steal, etc., before I would characterize this murderous invasion, as "just . . . ." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 A guy with a front-row seat to hostilities ... and an interesting perspective: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 William quoted, “He still strongly believes Russia does not possess enough forces to conduct a successful operation.” I hope that proves out. Just imagine when peace finally arrives so many Ukrainian children will be fatherless or motherless, and many Ukrainians will be crying and putting flowers on graves. And how many people will Russia execute or put in a Gulag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 One more atrocity story? 11 days ago from Fox News: Fifty-two civilians — including five children — were killed in a Russian missile attack while trying to evacuate the Eastern Ukrainian town of Kramatusk Friday morning, according to Ukrainian officials. "I think it's worth emphasizing the point that Russia has embraced – a strategy of intentionally targeting civilians," said William Muck, professor of political science at North Central College. "The cruelty is the point." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted April 20, 2022 Author Share Posted April 20, 2022 49 minutes ago, Peter said: Just imagine when peace finally arrives so many Ukrainian children will be fatherless or motherless, and many Ukrainians will be crying and putting flowers on graves. Peter, I feel bad for these people, but I don't feel guilty. Not even a trace of shame. Conmen and bullies are engineering that situation. btw - You left out a lot of other victims. They are not in your framing, but they exist and are just as dead without needing to be. I am arguing for American bodies to not be added to the pile. Guilt and shame are supposed to get Americans lathered up to go sacrifice themselves. This is called "sanction of the victim." I, for one, don't feel any guilt or shame about this. I feel sorry for the victims and that's about all. It's not enough for me to want to sacrifice young Americans. Senator Chris Coons is already calling for American soldiers to go over to Ukraine. He sure wants to make his money... Michael 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted April 20, 2022 Author Share Posted April 20, 2022 42 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: This is called "sanction of the victim." Speaking of sanctions, the USA is sanctioning Russia. OK. But shouldn't the USA also be sanctioning Germany--and a few other NATO countries--for providing a good part of the funding to Putin? Germany is the biggest purchaser of natural gas coming from Russia. Without that money, Putin would probably not be able to keep the Ukraine invasion up. So why isn't Germany held guilty? And those other NATO countries? It is like that "free trade" thing with China? Move the meanings of the words around so the people get to feel moral, but get to get their goodies from immorality at the same time? "Think different" with Apple phones, but get their Apple phone devices from Chinese slave labor? And countless other examples? That kind of deal? Here's an analogy. The hit man. The guy who pays for the hit man. Then Americans get to die for it. Why? As I keep arguing, why should Americans die for that? Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmj Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 Or required to kill for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 5 hours ago, Peter said: Just imagine when peace finally arrives so many Ukrainian children will be fatherless or motherless, and many Ukrainians will be crying and putting flowers on graves. And how many people will Russia execute or put in a Gulag? The stories out of Mariupol are hard to credit. It goes like this: Russians "evacuate" children and mothers to Russian 'protection.' The Ukrainians claim these are forced deportations and it is not hard to find supposed documented 'testimony' ... fog of war. In any case, Russia has effectively destroyed the entire city of Mariupol and is now facing down the final defenders -- who are mostly of the dreaded Azov Battalion. The darkest part of the Mariupol operation seems not to be just the wild destruction of civilian zones -- this is how Russian Forces operated in Syria -- but the refusal to allow evacuations to the north and east. From the Institute for the Study of War April 20 report: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted April 21, 2022 Author Share Posted April 21, 2022 14 minutes ago, tmj said: Or required to kill for it. T, Damn straight. If the predator class wants young people to fight so they can make money, they need to send their own kids, not the kids of others. Or hell. Let them go fight and see how it feels. But they won't do that. Like I said, they are predators. Er... Oh, wait... Things Just Got Weird: MSNBC Dandy and Nutbag Malcolm Nance Dresses in Military Gear and Says He’s Fighting in Ukraine in New Video Things Just Got Weird: MSNBC Dandy and Nutbag Malcolm Nance Dresses in Military Gear and Says He's Fighting in Ukraine in New Video WWW.THEGATEWAYPUNDIT.COM MSNBC crackpot Malcolm Nance is well known for his disgusting attacks on Trump and being completely ridiculous on most anything. ... Well that ought to scare the shit out of the Russians. The Ukrainians, too. How long does anyone think the invasion will last now that a real ass-kicker is going over there? Two days? Three? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 On 4/19/2022 at 6:59 AM, Peter said: Yet, Putin STILL targets civilians in some of his attacks. I think a war crimes tribunal would be a welcome sight. He is as bad and evil as the Soviet Union and The Nazi’s. Did Mr Freeman lie? "Tendentious nonsense" - to targeting civilians. "Suggests the Russian have been holding back" - to ratio of civilians : combatants killed. (+/- 2 minutes) One thing, to ignore what I've been saying, that the casualty figures for civilians is very low considering 60 days of intense, urban fighting - from which one may deduce a policy by the Russian Army to minimize casualties - another to disregard an experienced diplomat. That's where the MSM gets you. Believe ¬our¬ (carefully pre-selected) 'authorities' and (cooked-up) numbers... The confusion and doubts and knee-jerk emotional responses I hear of by CNN's etc., viewers is a conscious ploy. If you don't use and trust your own suss you are lost in ¬their¬ story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjR4prx_6P3AhWnQkEAHS3RAkwQFnoECDIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ohchr.org%2Fen%2Fnews%2F2022%2F04%2Fukraine-civilian-casualty-update-18-april-2022&usg=AOvVaw3RaTCnD3bj1z0RDQQxY1Se Just because the entire world wants to believe it so doesn't make it so. (Basic subjectivity which O'ists can recognize). "Tens of thousands"! Well no. The Number does not still reflect that. How about 2,000 civilian deaths (until a few days ago)? from the UN source which is hardly biased to Russia. Yes, yes -of course - the grim death-and-injury toll will rise further and isn't fully counted. From these latest battles one can extrapolate several hundred more. But double, triple, ten times? Tendentious nonsense. Hysterical illogic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 10 hours ago, Peter said: One more atrocity story? 11 days ago from Fox News: Fifty-two civilians — including five children — were killed in a Russian missile attack while trying to evacuate the Eastern Ukrainian town of Kramatusk Friday morning, according to Ukrainian officials. "I think it's worth emphasizing the point that Russia has embraced – a strategy of intentionally targeting civilians," said William Muck, professor of political science at North Central College. "The cruelty is the point." Kramatusk has been raised. Highly suspect. Too many unanswered questions for an attack that was senseless and arbitrary and a first and only on railway stations, for the Russians pov, a gainless exercise from any angle. A missile of controversial origins is also suspect. "The cruelty is the point" shows his prejudice. "Intentionally targeting ... " bla, bla, bla: a demonstrable falsehood. I doubt this is the intellectual quality of most professors of political science in the US. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj3kKXGnaT3AhXJesAKHSaHAEwQFnoECBMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.politifact.com%2Ffactchecks%2F2022%2Fapr%2F18%2Ffacebook-posts%2Fno-evidence-ukraine-attacked-train-station-one-its%2F&usg=AOvVaw1Z5-U_K7Y_6wnt7op9JaWi An impartial reader will notice this so-called 'fact check' produces little counter-evidence to this attack being a Ukrainian subterfuge (for propagandist, PR, purposes). It simply refutes the false "BBC-report" claim, a red herring. Who aimed and fired the missiles? Not proven, either way, does NOT equal "False" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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