Donald Trump

[Wolf DeVoon]

It would be nice if occasionally there was a thread I could participate in.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, william.scherk said:

If there is anywhere on earth a better example of blending the races than North America, I haven't found it.

William,

Brazil.

They have every race on earth and they love sex.

A... whole... lot... of... sex...

 

And for the record, my two sons have a nice dose of black blood in them. Up here, that would be an issue because of the nasty racist environment the media keeps up. But down there, I didn't think about it. I rarely mentioned it. The fact is, it just wasn't an issue.

Oh, there is a covert form of racism in the upper classes, but it's not universal nor intense, and, as one of the former Presidents (Fernando Henrique Cardoso) said, everybody in Brazil has at least one foot in the kitchen (meaning where the maid hangs out)  .

For the real literal-minded, this means everybody has some black blood in them.

Michael

[caroljane]

28 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

William,

Brazil.

They have every race on earth and they love sex.

A... whole... lot... of... sex...

 

And for the record, my two sons have a nice dose of black blood in them. Up here, that would be an issue because of the nasty racist environment the media keeps up. 

You confirm my (very positive!) impression about Brazil and its people.

But I cannot let your assertion that "up here"( I assume you mean all of North America) racism  exists because the media keeps it up, go by without questioning it. I take that to mean that if the media did not report or comment on racial issues, or reported all stories including crime reporting, without identifying people by race, that racism would wither at the roots. That gives a huge power and responsibility to the media.  Is this part of how you feel about the issue? I don't have any lefty agenda here, I really just want to know.

 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Carol,

The media doesn't cause racism to exist or not. In fact, I don't believe racism exists in North America except at the fringe, among paid agitators, and among media personalities (certain pundits, celebrities, politicians, etc.).

Out here in reality and society, racism is basically dead,

But the media keeps up a white-hot racism hatred running because it's good for storytelling. And that's good for ratings. Also, I believe, the crony-corporatist owned media has its own divide-and-conquer agenda. The activists are very active in the media (including social media).

You may be shocked, shocked, I say, but the mainstream media lies.

 

The media lies constantly. And it won't stop lying because the people in it like to lie to their audience. They don't do it because they make mistakes or because they have to. They like it.

Michael

[caroljane]

4 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Carol,

The media doesn't cause racism to exist or not. In fact, I don't believe racism exists in North America except at the fringe, among paid agitators, and among media personalities (certain pundits, celebrities, politicians, etc.).

Out here in reality and society, racism is basically dead,

But the media keeps up a white-hot racism hatred running because it's good for storytelling. And that's good for ratings. Also, I believe, the crony-corporatist owned media has its own divide-and-conquer agenda.

You may be shocked, shocked, I say, but the mainstream media lies.

 

The media lies constantly. And it won't stop lying because the people in it like to lie to their audience. They don't do it because they make mistakes or because they have to. They like it.

Michael

But surely all of the media are just as prone to those failings of power.  You must have noticed misreportings o/n your side too. The most salient example is the Birther fiction, very heavily promoted by rightwing media , and if that was not racially inciting, what was? I remember many "Kenyan" and "darkie" and go-home-to-Africa memes that were widely circulated and applauded. The racism was barely veiled. It was an encouragement to the likes of the white supremacists. Have they stopped hating blacks and disappeared just because they haven't been in the news lately? I doubt it.

[KorbenDallas]

1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Carol,

The media doesn't cause racism to exist or not. In fact, I don't believe racism exists in North America except at the fringe, among paid agitators, and among media personalities (certain pundits, celebrities, politicians, etc.).

Out here in reality and society, racism is basically dead,

But the media keeps up a white-hot racism hatred running because it's good for storytelling. And that's good for ratings. Also, I believe, the crony-corporatist owned media has its own divide-and-conquer agenda. The activists are very active in the media (including social media).

You may be shocked, shocked, I say, but the mainstream media lies.

 

The media lies constantly. And it won't stop lying because the people in it like to lie to their audience. They don't do it because they make mistakes or because they have to. They like it.

Michael

Racism isn't dead in the south, I can tell you that.  I'm not black but it ain't dead.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

9 hours ago, KorbenDallas said:

Racism isn't dead in the south, I can tell you that.  I'm not black but it ain't dead.

Korben,

I presume you are talking about white to black racism, right? How about the reverse? Does that part enter the undead portion of your consideration, too?

 

Anyway, I'm talking about institutional racism.

Schools, public places, jobs, etc. And parties to go out and terrorize some blacks where law enforcement is complicit. Things like that.

As to mouthing off, there are always some jerks around. White jerks, black jerks, latino jerks, Muslim jerks, all kind of bigoted jerks. But that's about all they do is mouth off. Notice they may be loud, but they are in a tiny minority. That is, you notice this when you actually go out and talk to people instead of getting information second-hand.

If you can't, if you need to get this kind of information second-hand, why not read a book by someone--not a partisan--who did talk to people?

The Great Revolt: Inside the Populist Coalition Reshaping American Politics by Salena Zito

Here's a test for you. Get out of the bubble (mostly city) and do like Zito did. Go to any suburbs. Any small towns. Go into public places and talk to people. Try to find institutionalized attacks on blacks. Or latinos. Or Muslims. You will be hard pressed to find anything that even looks like white racism. You will generally find good people living their lives, taking care of their families, pursuing their professions and dreams, etc. (These are the people Trump haters tend to pretend don't exist. That's why they are so perplexed by his popularity.) Multiply this all across America and you will see the real status of white racism. 

Now go to a minority ghetto in cities, like, say, parts of the south side of Chicago and see if whites are welcome. Or maybe an area controlled by a latino gang. Or maybe go to certain Muslim communities in, say, Dearborn, Michigan and see if average white people are not trashed just for showing up. Or maybe check out the percentage of skinheads to minority gangs and see who the real minority is. 

That large massive group of unseen people in suburbs I mentioned are sick and tired of being called racist as they keep seeing things like this and they keep seeing it go un-protested by the loud virtue-signalers in the media. 

You know where you find real racism? The hard-core black-hating anti-Semitic KKK kind you are talking about? On the Internet and in the media. One day it might be interesting to ask why they don't physically congregate and live in their own closed-off neighborhoods like minority bigots nowadays do.

I'm from the South, I grew up around racists, I know what they're like, so I have life knowledge, not just an opinion on the Internet.

And I'm not dead, either. 

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

8 hours ago, caroljane said:

You must have noticed misreportings o/n your side too.

Carol,

Of course. Notice that I periodically post things from progressive sources.

As to the birther thing, I am agnostic. When people shut down questions, I know something other than the search for knowledge is going on.

I actually believe former President Obama was born in America, but that's just a belief. It's not proven by the crappy altered documents he presented that nobody is allowed to criticize without a shitstorm.

I believe when people are not allowed to ask questions about people in power without a massive wave of oppression trying to drown them out, something's cooking somewhere. Just look at the way you framed the birther thing. You framed it as an accusation of racism. As a prejudged conclusion of fact. You framed it as preemptively dismissing any possible question before a question could be asked.

That's faith. That's not interest in facts.

I believe most people who have questions about Obama's birth certificate documents got tired of talking about it. I don't believe they have been convinced of anything. I know crappy altered documents don't convince me of anything. And the problem with shutting people up rather than convincing them is that they vote. My proof is that the birther thing should have done President Trump in. But it didn't. Why? Notice that he did not backtrack on his questions about the documents. He just stopped talking about it. 

Well, the reason giving in the liberal narrative is that the people who voted for Trump despite the birther thing are all racists. The truth is, they got tired of the yelling and moved on to issues that they valued more.

Believe, if you must, that the same people who voted for Obama, then voted for Trump are KKK racists, but that has no correspondence in reality, nor in elementary logic. 

Present unaltered documents or say the originals don't exist anymore. Both answers work with reasonable people because they are factual. But don't try to shove garbage down people's throats and tell them what they see doesn't exist and call them racists for saying what they see. Or for asking a question.

Answer the question with facts, not yelling and accusations of bigotry.

That's reasonable. 

Michael

[caroljane]

37 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Carol,

Of course. Notice that I periodically post things from progressive sources.

As to the birther thing, I am agnostic. When people shut down questions, I know something other than the search for knowledge is going on.

I actually believe former President Obama was born in America, but that's just a belief. It's not proven by the crappy altered documents he presented that nobody is allowed to criticize without a shitstorm.

I believe when people are not allowed to ask questions about people in power without a massive wave of oppression trying to drown them out, something's cooking somewhere. Just look at the way you framed the birther thing. You framed it as an accusation of racism. As a prejudged conclusion of fact. You framed it as preemptively dismissing any possible question before a question could be asked.

That's faith. That's not interest in facts.

I believe most people who have questions about Obama's birth certificate documents got tired of talking about it. I don't believe they have been convinced of anything. I know crappy altered documents don't convince me of anything. And the problem with shutting people up rather than convincing them is that they vote. My proof is that the birther thing should have done President Trump in. But it didn't. Why? Notice that he did not backtrack on his questions about the documents. He just stopped talking about it. 

Well, the reason giving in the liberal narrative is that the people who voted for Trump despite the birther thing are all racists. The truth is, they got tired of the yelling and moved on to issues that they valued more.

Believe, if you must, that the same people who voted for Obama, then voted for Trump are KKK racists, but that has no correspondence in reality, nor in elementary logic. 

Present unaltered documents or say the originals don't exist anymore. Both answers work with reasonable people because they are factual. But don't try to shove garbage down people's throats and tell them what they see doesn't exist and call them racists for saying what they see. Or for asking a question.

Answer the question with facts, not yelling and accusations of bigotry.

That's reasonable. 

Michael

OK, I think I understand your position.  And you do often quote progressive sources.  Yet I don't see an answer to my original question about what the media should actually do, or stop doing, to discourage racism if it actually appears in reality. Ignore it as a minor aberration?  Should Anderson Cooper and Alex Jones both confine themselves to a recital of proven facts, without commentary? Or should they both slink away from the field, having killed the myth of impartiality in journalism, and leave it to the partial to slug it out individually? Pretty bleak prospects!

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, caroljane said:

Yet I don't see an answer to my original question about what the media should actually do, or stop doing, to discourage racism if it actually appears in reality.

Carol,

I don't think that is the media's job. Not as a collective.

I'm an individualist, not a social engineer.

If the media just reported the facts (in an interesting manner) and let each person come to his or her own conclusion, that would be great. And if commentators were representative of what people really think, I'm fine with them. But notice, you will not find Alex Jones on the mainstream. He is a leper to them. So he built his own empire. But you will find Van Jones on the elitist media...

The point is, the mainstream media doesn't do facts or play fair. The media--as a collective--tries to tell you what to think and believe. As a collective, they, as you said, try to stop people from doing this or that--or discourage this or that. That's their role, as Mika Brzezinski once said in a rare moment of candor. To tell you what to think.

And who calls the shots? That's easy. The mainstream media are owned by elitists who are just fine with social engineering--always to their benefit, of course . Don't ever take your eye off the money--these elitists always jabber about social justice and the common good, but the money always flows upstream with them. Right into their pockets.

At least with alt media, both left and right, you get to see what people really think.

Evil use of the media--from social engineers--results in the bloody mess called the Arab Spring. Now we get slavery again in society. Diseases that have already been conquered. And so on. Way to go, elitists.

Individual use of the medis, the alt media, even when the personalities are evil or ignorant people, results--at worst--in small venues where people who dislike each other can insult each other. But most alt media people I have looked at are good people, all sides.

As to the mass movements with the audience that the elitists like to do, with alt media, there's an exceptional kook who gets violent, but these cases are sporadic, these folks these tend to be individuals, and mental illness is often involved. In other words, something bad with these people would have probably happened irrespective of what anyone did or didn't do. Welcome to the human race. We get duds once in a while. It's practically impossible for the alt media to provoke something as vile and evil and massively destructive and deadly as the Arab Spring.

With the alt media, and, I agree, with some places in the mainstream, you have to filter out the crap, but if you learn how, you tend to get better information, and info that is more relevant to your personal life, than you ever do from the crony corporatist propagandists.

Michael

[KorbenDallas]

3 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Korben,

I presume you are talking about white to black racism, right? How about the reverse? Does that part enter the undead portion of your consideration, too?

 

Anyway, I'm talking about institutional racism.

Yes white to black racism,  I am aware of reverse racism as well, being from the south and all.

I should point out that I was born and raised in the south.

Institutional racism isn't what I was talking about, I was talking about individual racism, the kind where racism exists in an individual and they use covert manipulation to carry it out.  I worked for the government for a while, there was a racist person who worked there (who was factually a racist), a black man got hired to work underneath this person, and within a few months that black person was fired for "work related issues".  I inquired what those were, and it didn't add up.  No institutional racism, but the individual the black person worked for convinced others he should be fired.  There was an EEOC case that was going to be filed by the black person, but he didn't end up filing it.

I also used to know people who use covert aggression against black people when they can, being opportunistic.

I've spoken with some Latino friends I used to have that talked about the kind of racism around here.

Anyway, it exists.

[anthony]

Carol, It is always and only for each person "to slug it out individually". There is no other entity but the individual, who should work things out by his experience of association with other individuals -or 'groups' -- and thought -- and if he's an unremitting bigot, that's up to him and one can avoid him(as long as he doesn't try to carry out his ideas on others in action). What I think is plain to see in recent years is that many wonderful, self-proclaimed moral arbiters in govts. and media or social media have actually caused much more friction and divisions among 'groups' than ever before. They are anti-individualists who perceive only 'the group', and because racism equals collectivism, are the most dangerous racists of all. And as seen, will be the biggest 'haters' - in self-contradiction of their supposed, superficial ethics.

Divide (by group) and rule. Paying them attention, giving these people power over morality in society is like putting arsonists in charge of the Fire Brigade. 

[william.scherk]

14 hours ago, william.scherk said:

If there is anywhere on earth a better example of blending the races than North America, I haven't found it. 

One caller raised the example of Brazil.  If Brazil is a better example of  blending and blurring then what does this say about the state of racialism in the USA? If better, then doesn't that suggest the USA has some work to do to reach the level of wonderful in Brazil? 

I don't know. Having consulted a few information sources it looks to me like black and mixed folks in Brazil may still have a few problems with prejudice and social exclusion to work out.  I think one of the indices we might use for comparison is "social mobility."

The more data, the better, of course, especially for a philosophy forum. But I must cede the point about blending -- the Brazilian rate of intermarriage is far far higher than even in North America's most melty cities.

And ... a thought in passing. If a 'mestizo' culture like Mexico can have effortlessly submerged its 'indio' population into a mixed category since the conquest, then how well does Mexican society now look past skin-colour status in its powerful institutions?  How many 'mestizos' -- as opposed to 'white' Mexicans -- fill the screens of popular and exportable entertainment products?  How many mestizos are in governance, industry, elites? 

I don't know.

So, wrong about 'blending,' but leaving a door open to discussing details and issues (perhaps in an alternate thread).  I may be entirely biased in favour of North America, so surely other places in the world can be consulted. Compare and contrast! Lists!

PS --

Spoiler

 

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by william.scherk
Talking about racialism and love affairs ...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

27 minutes ago, KorbenDallas said:

Anyway, it exists.

Korben,

I'll take your word for it for the region where you live. 

I grew up around racists and I don't see anything like what I lived out in society at large.

But I do see it a lot in media narratives.

Anyway, like I mentioned elsewhere about my sons, this topic just wasn't there in Brazil even though some people are racists down there. I like that way of living a lot better than the way they do it up here. There's way too much hatred on all sides around here. That emotional tone of happiness is one of the things I most miss about Brazil.

Trying to reason with people about racism is irritating. And seeing it constantly on the news spoils my spirit for doing something productive that day. Fuck the mainstream news.

I'm going to try to focus on something different right now. 

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

10 minutes ago, william.scherk said:

One caller raised the example of Brazil.  If Brazil is a better example of  blending and blurring then what does this say about the state of racialism in the USA? If better, then doesn't that suggest the USA has some work to do to reach the level of wonderful in Brazil? 

William,

The media sure as hell does.

It constantly fans the flames of racism through all kinds of tricks--both blatant and covert.

To be honest, if the media would let go of their racism agenda and spreading hatred qua hatred, I bet people would be surprised at how little actual racism exists in people's souls.

I am almost sure they would stop talking about it for the most part.

Most people, in my experience, are good people.

Michael

[william.scherk]

19 hours ago, william.scherk said:

Loopholes!

Looks like someone read the polls ...

Quote

 New York Times:

Trump Plans Executive Order to End Family Separation  —  President Trump is preparing to issue an executive order as soon as Wednesday that ends the separation of families at the border by indefinitely detaining parents and children together, according to a person familiar with the White House plans.

–

Discussion:

Noah Lanard / Mother Jones:   Trump Says He'll End Family Separation Policy He Claimed He Couldn't Change

Josh Marshall / Talking Points Memo:   Trump's Ploy  —  The President says he's signing an executive order …

Emily Zanotti / Daily Wire:   OVER: President Trump Will Sign A ‘Preemptive Order’ Ending Border Separations

Ali Rogin / ABC News:   Trump charts immigration strategy with House GOP amid family separation uproar

Aaron Credeur / IJR:   Trump Says He'll Be ‘Signing Something’ to End Immigrant Family Separation

Saagar Enjeti / The Daily Caller:   Trump: ‘I Am Working On’ Solution To Stop Border Crisis

 

 

[Jonathan]

35 minutes ago, william.scherk said:

Looks like someone read the polls ...

 

Yup, and now on to the next crisis: A child will be abused by a parent while in family/group custody, and everyone will go apeshit demanding to know why fucking Trump didn't separate the children from abusive parents. What was he thinking? How could he put children in cages with violent, predatory parents? Why does he hate immigrant children so much?

J

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

30 minutes ago, Jonathan said:

Yup, and now on to the next crisis...

Jonathan,

The media wants to spin it as a victory over President Trump.

That way they can get sound bites for the midterms.

Here's a tweet President Trump just retweeted (so it's in his feed):

Once the mid terms are over, liberals won’t talk about detained or separated illegal immigrant children until 2020. #itsallpolitics

— Dr.Darrell Scott (@PastorDScott) June 19, 2018

Yup.

The fake news media doesn't really care about children or mothers. They care about power and anything they can gin up to get it.

btw - Several days ago (or maybe longer, I don't recall), someone asked President Trump about separating families at the border. He said he hated it. He's also repeated that several times since. You won't see many fake news people refer to that. Ever.

Michael

[william.scherk]

Dateline Washington. Faye's public pressure  leads to about-face.

Bad week for truth-telling?

Spoiler

 

The text of the Executive Order is not yet apparent. It probably says "Fix my mess."

Edited June 20, 2018 by william.scherk
Added a blonde moment

[caroljane]

28 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

 

 

btw - Several days ago (or maybe longer, I don't recall), someone asked President Trump about separating families at the border. He said he hated it. He's also repeated that several times since. You won't see many fake news people refer to that. Ever.

 

Michael

 

His words can't be relied upon to  convey his real feelings or intentions.  It is his deeds we must use as the measure of the man.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

5 minutes ago, caroljane said:

His words can't be relied upon to  convey his real feelings or intentions.

Carol,

What if President Trump said he didn't give a damn about separating families? That they deserved it for trying to sneak in...

Would you still have the same opinion?

   

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

11 minutes ago, caroljane said:

It is his deeds we must use as the measure of the man.

Carol,

Good. Then you must agree that President Trump measures tall by signing the executive order knowing the media would go into full circus mode and even throw in a marching band and a fireworks show for good measure.

As he said, he hates separating families. He doesn't want that law from previous administrations on the books.

Michael

[william.scherk]

At some point we will talk about bullshitting ...

Admin policy changed by pen stroke.  What happened to it all being someone else's fault, the "zero tolerance" ... ?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

26 minutes ago, william.scherk said:

Bad week for truth-telling?

William,

Not at all.

Separating children from their families at the border was not President Trump's policy.

It was the policy of laws enacted by Congress in years gone by.

President Trump's policy was to stop illegally and unconstitutionally ignoring the law like previous presidents.

He just now slapped a band-aid on it with the executive order, but the law needs to be changed. In Congress. Then he can sign it and know it's fixed.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

3 minutes ago, william.scherk said:

Admin policy changed by pen stroke.

William,

This will soon be challenged in the courts--unbelievably by pro-illegal-immigration judges. The ones on your side.

Get your popcorn and sit back and enjoy the show.

Michael