Frank's Niece!

[ginny]

Shit.

[Ellen Stuttle]

So Agnes just stopped being in touch with you and Conny after that argument she had with your step-mom?

Do you know when she moved away from Ohio?

Since she's buried at Arlington Heights, I suppose at some point she went to the Chicago area to live with or near Mimi and Marna.

What of Agnes's daughter Connie?

According to the obituary posted on the Find-A-Grave site, she lived in Ohio at least most of her life:

link

Aug. 18, 1931

Cleveland

Cuyahoga County

Ohio, USA

Death: Sep. 20, 2012

Ohio, USA

Elizabeth "Connie" Pastrano, 81, of Painesville, went home to be with the Lord Sept. 20, 2012, surrounded by loved ones, after a long and complicated battle with diabetes.

Born Aug. 18, 1931, in Cleveland, Connie was a well-known actress and nurse around the Lake County area. She lived out her passion for acting in the community theater for many years. When she was not performing, Connie was a nurse for Lake County hospitals and nursing homes. Connie was dedicated to making the lives of others better.

Ellen

[Cathy]

So Agnes just stopped being in touch with you and Conny after that argument she had with your step-mom?

Do you know when she moved away from Ohio?

Since she's buried at Arlington Heights, I suppose at some point she went to the Chicago area to live with or near Mimi and Marna.

What of Agnes's daughter Connie?

According to the obituary posted on the Find-A-Grave site, she lived in Ohio at least most of her life:

link

Aug. 18, 1931

Cleveland

Cuyahoga County

Ohio, USA

Death: Sep. 20, 2012

Ohio, USA

Elizabeth "Connie" Pastrano, 81, of Painesville, went home to be with the Lord Sept. 20, 2012, surrounded by loved ones, after a long and complicated battle with diabetes.

Born Aug. 18, 1931, in Cleveland, Connie was a well-known actress and nurse around the Lake County area. She lived out her passion for acting in the community theater for many years. When she was not performing, Connie was a nurse for Lake County hospitals and nursing homes. Connie was dedicated to making the lives of others better.

Ellen

Ellen, I found out through Marna that Aunt Agnes died in 1983...I didn't know she was alive all those years. When we didn't hear from them all that time, we assumed they were all dead. Connie was Aunt Agnes's youngest daughter. She is the one that was named after the O'Connor's before my sister Conny came along. I found out through Marna that Aunt Agnes was moving into an apartment in Il. when she died of a heart attack. Did you see her picture on find a grave...I put that on there. I also put the picture of St James church that all the O'Connor children were baptized at in Lorain. Marna told me Connie (her sister) died last year...I was a year to late looks like Ive been a little to late all my life. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Shit.

I know right?

[Cathy]

Posted Today, 06:12 PM

Peter Taylor, on 23 Feb 2011 - 10:57 AM, said:

Ayn advises children to run away as soon as they can? What an odd thing to think . . . and say!

Semper cogitans fidele,

Peter Taylor

Arnold Baise on the old objectivism@wetheliving.com wrote in 2005:

At her 1974 lecture at the Ford Hall Forum, Rand was asked about the rights of children. I have a recording of the question and answer session, so here is a verbatim transcript of her answer:

Q: Do the rights of a child differ from the rights of an adult?

A: Yes and no, from two different aspects. Yes [she meant No], in the sense that the child has the right to life, and liberty and the pursuit of happiness, except that all those rights are based on a man's rational knowledge and understanding. An infant cannot earn his own sustenance, nor can a child exercise his rights and know what the pursuit of happiness means, nor know what freedom is and how to use it. All human rights depend on his nature as a rational being. Therefore the child has to wait until he has developed his mind and acquired enough knowledge to be able to come into full independent exercise of his rights. While he is a child, he has to be supported by his parents. Neither he nor I nor you nor Nature gives him any choice about it, or rather none of us can do anything because this is a fact of nature. Proclaiming some kind of right of childhood isn't going to create those rights. Rights are a concept based on reality. Therefore a parent would not have the right to starve his child, to neglect him, to injure him physically or to kill him. There the government has to protect the child just like any other citizen. But the child cannot claim for himself the rights of an adult, simply because he is not able, he is not competent to exercise them. He has to depend on his parents, and if he doesn't like them, then run away from home as early as you can earn your living, if the government will permit it.

I just read this...when did she say this????? ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Posted Today, 06:12 PM

Peter Taylor, on 23 Feb 2011 - 10:57 AM, said:

Ayn advises children to run away as soon as they can? What an odd thing to think . . . and say!

Semper cogitans fidele,

Peter Taylor

Arnold Baise on the old objectivism@wetheliving.com wrote in 2005:

At her 1974 lecture at the Ford Hall Forum, Rand was asked about the rights of children. I have a recording of the question and answer session, so here is a verbatim transcript of her answer:

Q: Do the rights of a child differ from the rights of an adult?

A: Yes and no, from two different aspects. Yes [she meant No], in the sense that the child has the right to life, and liberty and the pursuit of happiness, except that all those rights are based on a man's rational knowledge and understanding. An infant cannot earn his own sustenance, nor can a child exercise his rights and know what the pursuit of happiness means, nor know what freedom is and how to use it. All human rights depend on his nature as a rational being. Therefore the child has to wait until he has developed his mind and acquired enough knowledge to be able to come into full independent exercise of his rights. While he is a child, he has to be supported by his parents. Neither he nor I nor you nor Nature gives him any choice about it, or rather none of us can do anything because this is a fact of nature. Proclaiming some kind of right of childhood isn't going to create those rights. Rights are a concept based on reality. Therefore a parent would not have the right to starve his child, to neglect him, to injure him physically or to kill him. There the government has to protect the child just like any other citizen. But the child cannot claim for himself the rights of an adult, simply because he is not able, he is not competent to exercise them. He has to depend on his parents, and if he doesn't like them, then run away from home as early as you can earn your living, if the government will permit it.

I just read this...when did she say this????? ~Cathy~

I just seen it...1974. I was 16...she knew, she left it up to the government, and basically said to run away. This just gives me more to think about now.

[ginny]

She gave a yearly speech every year at Boston's Ford Hall Forum - a part of Northeastern University. This was in 1974. It was big, and people came from all over the world. She believed children have rights, but she also knew not all children had those rights protected. She's agree with running away. I did at 16.

I'm remember something else about children, but I can't remember if it was actually Ayn or someone else. I'll leave it to Ellen to sort it out. Whatever, let's say it was Ayn, said that if parents are opposed to their child's beliefs and are in a position to make the child's life miserable, the child has a right to lie to them. I'm okay with that.

[Cathy]

She gave a yearly speech every year at Boston's Ford Hall Forum - a part of Northeastern University. This was in 1974. It was big, and people came from all over the world. She believed children have rights, but she also knew not all children had those rights protected. She's agree with running away. I did at 16.

I'm remember something else about children, but I can't remember if it was actually Ayn or someone else. I'll leave it to Ellen to sort it out. Whatever, let's say it was Ayn, said that if parents are opposed to their child's beliefs and are in a position to make the child's life miserable, the child has a right to lie to them. I'm okay with that.

Ginny...this makes me know that she knew we ran away and everything we went through with my step mother(everything, not just the bruises). Was this her first speech on children's rights? She was wrong...children didn't have rights...not in homes, courts, or government. Maybe I'm looking at her wrong. Maybe she was happy we ran away and felt the government wouldn't let her do anything to help us. Would you know if I could get juvenile records open if they are mine? I'd like to know what is in there. When you ran away at sixteen...did they catch you? I don't know how old you are...but I know when my uncles ran away, nothing was done to them. When I did...the police always caught me. I wasn't just put in foster home, I also was put in institutions (like prisons). What makes me angry about it, if I would have been an adult, I wouldn't be breaking the law. ~Cathy~

[ginny]

I don't know how many speeches she gave on children's rights, but it was a topic she didn't talk about much. She probably didn't have you in mind when she talked about running away. I'm sure her idea was to get out of a bad situation as best as you can. If I understand it, at that point, there was only your bio-dad. Sound like his wife put her foot down about you guys. Sadly, what choice did the law have. Your bio-dad didn't stand up to the witch, so I think you were out of options.

I don't know about sealed juvie files, but a lawyer should know. Since they are your own, maybe you can.

Children's rights is a tough subject. Even today, kids who are being beaten end up back in the home. I get the feeling they get taking only in the type of extreme cases that make the news.

But back in those days, I don't know how the courts handled it. I do know that most of it was swept under the rug and kept "inside the family." Kind of like rape. No one wanted to admit it existed. Maybe it was your running away (no matter how well-advised) that got you put into institutions if there was no one to fight for you.

No, I didn't get picked up. You think the folks wanted me back? Don't be silly. I got a job and a place to live and tried to learn about life. For me, running away saved my sanity, so maybe Ayn had something.

[Cathy]

I don't know how many speeches she gave on children's rights, but it was a topic she didn't talk about much. She probably didn't have you in mind when she talked about running away. I'm sure her idea was to get out of a bad situation as best as you can. If I understand it, at that point, there was only your bio-dad. Sound like his wife put her foot down about you guys. Sadly, what choice did the law have. Your bio-dad didn't stand up to the witch, so I think you were out of options.

I don't know about sealed juvie files, but a lawyer should know. Since they are your own, maybe you can.

Children's rights is a tough subject. Even today, kids who are being beaten end up back in the home. I get the feeling they get taking only in the type of extreme cases that make the news.

But back in those days, I don't know how the courts handled it. I do know that most of it was swept under the rug and kept "inside the family." Kind of like rape. No one wanted to admit it existed. Maybe it was your running away (no matter how well-advised) that got you put into institutions if there was no one to fight for you.

No, I didn't get picked up. You think the folks wanted me back? Don't be silly. I got a job and a place to live and tried to learn about life. For me, running away saved my sanity, so maybe Ayn had something.

Yes I think "ayn" did have it right. She may have been thinking of Uncle Frank when she view children having to run away. I am happy to know "you made it out" ~Cathy~

[Ellen Stuttle]

She gave a yearly speech every year at Boston's Ford Hall Forum - a part of Northeastern University. This was in 1974. It was big, and people came from all over the world. She believed children have rights, but she also knew not all children had those rights protected. She's agree with running away. I did at 16. I'm remember something else about children, but I can't remember if it was actually Ayn or someone else. I'll leave it to Ellen to sort it out. Whatever, let's say it was Ayn, said that if parents are opposed to their child's beliefs and are in a position to make the child's life miserable, the child has a right to lie to them. I'm okay with that.

Ginny...this makes me know that she knew we ran away and everything we went through with my step mother(everything, not just the bruises).

Cathy,

From revised information you gave after your visit with Marna, I don't see how you could know that Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank knew about your step-mother's treatment of you and your sister.

You changed the location and shrank the time period of the visits to your dad's from after his remarriage to before.

I've bold-faced that part below.

By the time I was born, there were only four siblings left of the O'Connor's, Frank, Bill (John) Agnes and Bess (Elizabeth). We didn't see Bess much, none of them liked her husband. They would stop in very seldom and only on their way through from somewhere else. I remember on visiting days (weekends) with my dad, we would see more of the relatives than when he was married to my step mother. No one in the family liked her either. I remember now with Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank would visit when my dad wasn't married and we were there on visitation. I don't know why I didn't remember us going to my dad's on weekends when we lived with my mother. The 2 times I had forgotten where the visits took place...it was at my dad's through visitation. These 2 visits would have been in the years of 62-66. After seeing Marna, I remember so many more things. I remember Uncle Frank trying to teach us to tie our shoes and Aunt Alice said...don't do the bunny ears, if your going to teach them teach them the right way...this was at my dad's on visitation weekend. ~Cathy~

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

I'm remember something else about children, but I can't remember if it was actually Ayn or someone else. I'll leave it to Ellen to sort it out. Whatever, let's say it was Ayn, said that if parents are opposed to their child's beliefs and are in a position to make the child's life miserable, the child has a right to lie to them. I'm okay with that.

Ginny,

That doesn't ring any bells of remembrance for me. Maybe it was something Peikoff said.

Ellen

[ginny]

You know, I think you're right? Wasn't I brilliant for not risking embarrassment and waiting for you?

[Ellen Stuttle]

Did you see [Agnes'] picture on find a grave...I put that on there.

I just saw it - link.

An attractive woman, imo, and she looks as sensitive and intelligent as I've been imagining her from your recollections.

Ellen

[Cathy]

She gave a yearly speech every year at Boston's Ford Hall Forum - a part of Northeastern University. This was in 1974. It was big, and people came from all over the world. She believed children have rights, but she also knew not all children had those rights protected. She's agree with running away. I did at 16. I'm remember something else about children, but I can't remember if it was actually Ayn or someone else. I'll leave it to Ellen to sort it out. Whatever, let's say it was Ayn, said that if parents are opposed to their child's beliefs and are in a position to make the child's life miserable, the child has a right to lie to them. I'm okay with that.

Ellen, there were 2 visits that I couldn't remember where we were. Because I know around what age we were I thought we may have been with my mother. I thought that maybe my mother went to visit them or they meet on on the way to Arizona because I couldn't remember the surroundings. Then I flashed on the visitations at my dad's before he married my step mother. Those were where those 2 other visits were and not with my mother. They also were there after my father was married all 3 of them, when my dad went to St Louis for treatment. It was then they drew on our backs. She did know what was happening to us, and what she didn't see or hear Aunt Agnes told her. ~Cathy~

Ginny...this makes me know that she knew we ran away and everything we went through with my step mother(everything, not just the bruises).

Cathy,

From revised information you gave after your visit with Marna, I don't see how you could know that Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank knew about your step-mother's treatment of you and your sister.

You changed the location and shrank the time period of the visits to your dad's from after his remarriage to before.

I've bold-faced that part below.

By the time I was born, there were only four siblings left of the O'Connor's, Frank, Bill (John) Agnes and Bess (Elizabeth). We didn't see Bess much, none of them liked her husband. They would stop in very seldom and only on their way through from somewhere else. I remember on visiting days (weekends) with my dad, we would see more of the relatives than when he was married to my step mother. No one in the family liked her either. I remember now with Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank would visit when my dad wasn't married and we were there on visitation. I don't know why I didn't remember us going to my dad's on weekends when we lived with my mother. The 2 times I had forgotten where the visits took place...it was at my dad's through visitation. These 2 visits would have been in the years of 62-66. After seeing Marna, I remember so many more things. I remember Uncle Frank trying to teach us to tie our shoes and Aunt Alice said...don't do the bunny ears, if your going to teach them teach them the right way...this was at my dad's on visitation weekend. ~Cathy~

Ellen

[Cathy]

Did you see [Agnes'] picture on find a grave...I put that on there.

I just saw it - link.

An attractive woman, imo, and she looks as sensitive and intelligent as I've been imagining her from your recollections.

Ellen

In my mind, she was our second mother. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

She gave a yearly speech every year at Boston's Ford Hall Forum - a part of Northeastern University. This was in 1974. It was big, and people came from all over the world. She believed children have rights, but she also knew not all children had those rights protected. She's agree with running away. I did at 16. I'm remember something else about children, but I can't remember if it was actually Ayn or someone else. I'll leave it to Ellen to sort it out. Whatever, let's say it was Ayn, said that if parents are opposed to their child's beliefs and are in a position to make the child's life miserable, the child has a right to lie to them. I'm okay with that.

Ellen, there were 2 visits that I couldn't remember where we were. Because I know around what age we were I thought we may have been with my mother. I thought that maybe my mother went to visit them or they meet on on the way to Arizona because I couldn't remember the surroundings. Then I flashed on the visitations at my dad's before he married my step mother. Those were where those 2 other visits were and not with my mother. They also were there after my father was married all 3 of them, when my dad went to St Louis for treatment. It was then they drew on our backs. She did know what was happening to us, and what she didn't see or hear Aunt Agnes told her. ~Cathy~

Ginny...this makes me know that she knew we ran away and everything we went through with my step mother(everything, not just the bruises).

Cathy,

From revised information you gave after your visit with Marna, I don't see how you could know that Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank knew about your step-mother's treatment of you and your sister.

You changed the location and shrank the time period of the visits to your dad's from after his remarriage to before.

I've bold-faced that part below.

By the time I was born, there were only four siblings left of the O'Connor's, Frank, Bill (John) Agnes and Bess (Elizabeth). We didn't see Bess much, none of them liked her husband. They would stop in very seldom and only on their way through from somewhere else. I remember on visiting days (weekends) with my dad, we would see more of the relatives than when he was married to my step mother. No one in the family liked her either. I remember now with Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank would visit when my dad wasn't married and we were there on visitation. I don't know why I didn't remember us going to my dad's on weekends when we lived with my mother. The 2 times I had forgotten where the visits took place...it was at my dad's through visitation. These 2 visits would have been in the years of 62-66. After seeing Marna, I remember so many more things. I remember Uncle Frank trying to teach us to tie our shoes and Aunt Alice said...don't do the bunny ears, if your going to teach them teach them the right way...this was at my dad's on visitation weekend. ~Cathy~

Ellen

Also the things I remember after seeing Marna was both my aunts trying to teach us to play jax. I thought they were both teaching us, but really Aunt Alice was learning with us.

[Cathy]

She gave a yearly speech every year at Boston's Ford Hall Forum - a part of Northeastern University. This was in 1974. It was big, and people came from all over the world. She believed children have rights, but she also knew not all children had those rights protected. She's agree with running away. I did at 16. I'm remember something else about children, but I can't remember if it was actually Ayn or someone else. I'll leave it to Ellen to sort it out. Whatever, let's say it was Ayn, said that if parents are opposed to their child's beliefs and are in a position to make the child's life miserable, the child has a right to lie to them. I'm okay with that.

Ellen, I just wrote this and I must not have hit post. There were 2 visits I couldn't remember who and where we were. I thought because of our age, we were with our mother. I thought either my mother took us to them or they meet us on our way to Arizona. The it just flashed on me that we were at our father's house on visitation before he got married to our step mother. They came to my mother's house when we were 5 (I think) and she taught us the Russian prayer. There were 2 visits at my dad's before he got married. Then there were 1 or 2 at my dad's after he got married. The reason I say one or 2 is because I don't remember if they spent the night, I remember different clothes. The time at my dad's when all 3 were there was when my dad went to St. Louis for treatment...that's when they drew on our backs. She did know what was happening to us...and what she didn't see with her own eyes or hear with her own ears Aunt Agnes told her. Believe me, she knew. ~Cathy~

Ginny...this makes me know that she knew we ran away and everything we went through with my step mother(everything, not just the bruises).

Cathy,

From revised information you gave after your visit with Marna, I don't see how you could know that Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank knew about your step-mother's treatment of you and your sister.

You changed the location and shrank the time period of the visits to your dad's from after his remarriage to before.

I've bold-faced that part below.

By the time I was born, there were only four siblings left of the O'Connor's, Frank, Bill (John) Agnes and Bess (Elizabeth). We didn't see Bess much, none of them liked her husband. They would stop in very seldom and only on their way through from somewhere else. I remember on visiting days (weekends) with my dad, we would see more of the relatives than when he was married to my step mother. No one in the family liked her either. I remember now with Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank would visit when my dad wasn't married and we were there on visitation. I don't know why I didn't remember us going to my dad's on weekends when we lived with my mother. The 2 times I had forgotten where the visits took place...it was at my dad's through visitation. These 2 visits would have been in the years of 62-66. After seeing Marna, I remember so many more things. I remember Uncle Frank trying to teach us to tie our shoes and Aunt Alice said...don't do the bunny ears, if your going to teach them teach them the right way...this was at my dad's on visitation weekend. ~Cathy~

Ellen

[Cathy]

So I can clear this up...I remember so far visits from Aunt Alice 5 times. Once at my mothers where she taught us the prayer. two times at my father's on visitations before my father got married to my step mother. Twice(?) at my father's after he was married to my step mother. The reason I put a question mark is I am not sure if they came twice or spent the night. The two times that I could not remember where we were and thought we were with our mother...it was on visitation with my father. I am not very good at explaining things and I am remembering from years ago. I do believe (not sure) that they spent the night at my father's when he went to St Louis for treatment. Aunt Agnes was there with them on one occasion at my dad's before he was married and was there on the day my dad went to St. Louis also. Sometimes I don't make myself clear enough...typical O'Connor...sorry ~Cathy~

[Backlighting]

The first several posts in this thread were interesting. But geez, with some 700+ posts later isn't it played out by now?

[ginny]

Don't read it.

[Cathy]

The first several posts in this thread were interesting. But geez, with some 700+ posts later isn't it played out by now?

I don't know...is it? Your still here

[Mikee]

I've been reading this thread with interest.

Cathy, my sister an I were "in the system" in Ohio for 2+ years (mid 50's) after our mother committed suicide. "The State" took custody of us kids because our father was in the military. My father was finally able to talk his brother in California into taking custody of us, the only way the state of Ohio would relinquish custody. It was hell. We were in an orphanage, then several foster homes. Since then I've always said and believed dogs in kennels are treated better and loved more than children in a state system. Much of my contempt for govt workers stems from that early experience with those "caretakers". Some of them truly hate the kids they take care of. Mostly the kids are a bit messed up from the circumstances which put them there, but the "workers" just want their paycheck and don't want any difficulties thank you very much. I ran away several times starting at six years old. Always some do gooder would call the cops and they'd drag me back. I just wanted to find my dad. Once they get their hands on you you're pretty much screwed. Nobody listens to kids, hell they don't even ask what you think, what you want, where you want to go. No power, no voice. Hell of a way to raise a human being. Ayn Rand was right, on everything. Thank you very much for illuminating another part of her life, I think you were very dear to her. But she was trying to save the world, as much as she didn't believe in altruism. She really believed in human beings, their potential, their goodness and their abilities. I cried when she died.

[Backlighting]

Don't read it.

I stopped reading it after several posts but it's been at or near the top of the thread list for several weeks. I don't mean to rain on any ones parade. It just sounds like a never-ending, insignificant, soap opera imo. To each his own.

[Ellen Stuttle]

Cathy,

Do you know the official marriage date of your father and step-mother?

This would help with the logistics of visits when/where and the plausibility in terms of what's known of dates in Rand's life.

Ellen