Natanyahu Lowers the Boom

[moralist]

See this is why I said carpet bomb them. They as a society worship death.

Absolutely.

This situation appears to be heading in the direction of how the Nazis and the Japanese were dealt with in WWII.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

I don't think Hamas is using many suicide bombers. I don't think Hamas is in this for the religion but has the same secular deportment to the Jews as the Nazis did. The people you want to "carpet bomb" are confined to a prison called "Gaza" and the meanest SOBs in there run the joint. Such is the nature of a prison--one, btw, that Israel helped to set up and helped put Hamas in charge by bringing back the PLO from its northern African exile. That was the essential entre for Hamas.

I would like to see others' rationale for carpet bombing Gaza, if any one else is advocating that. Is the West Bank deserving of carpet bombing too? I don't think Hamas is doing much there, maybe nothing. But same religion, no? You seem to be second guessing the Israeli government which seems to winding this iteration of its war with Hamas down. Is this a mistake? The people in charge over there have data and analyses coming out of their ears. Are they failing in their strategy? Maybe. I don't know.

Let's see. Gaza has 1.82 million people packed in almost like sardines. If the US--Israel does not have the capability--were to use all its B-52 bombers packed with high explosive bombs, maybe it could kill a million, including the innocent youngsters. Those fleeing into Egypt could be strafed to death. Out in the open they'd have no chance. The high explosive bombing could be supplemented by incendiaries that would suck the oxygen out of the basements and remaining tunnels.

Afterwards--after the dead stopped stinking--bulldozers could be brought in to push all the debris into the sea. The newly available real estate could be used for parks and recreation or even industry--and maybe another Holocaust museum.

--Brant

[moralist]

I would like to see others' rationale for carpet bombing Gaza, if any one else is advocating that.

There is only one criterium:

If it is the morally right thing to do to protect Israel from evil people who wish to destroy her.

An extreme situation would have to first call for an extreme response. Right now it is nowhere close... so far. There are three more blood moons to go. So whether or not it is the proper action, is completely up to how the Palestinians respond to the government they chose to lead them (Hamas).

I'll hazard a wild guess... Israel will come out of this a larger nation than it was.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

I would like to see others' rationale for carpet bombing Gaza, if any one else is advocating that.

There is only one criterium:

If it is the morally right thing to do to protect Israel from evil people who wish to destroy her.

An extreme situation would have to first call for an extreme response. Right now it is nowhere close... so far. There are three more blood moons to go. So whether or not it is the proper action, is completely up to how the Palestinians respond to the government they chose to lead them (Hamas).

I'll hazard a wild guess... Israel will come out of this a larger nation than it was.

Greg

Gaza can do that for you. Pretty up the map.

You can always find "the morally right thing"--but it's not morality; it's rationalization. War is immorality incarnate. Murder transmogrified into justified killing and dead babies are "collateral damage." "The Art of War" is the brutality of war. In the maelstrom we can find moral actors--the "good guys"--doing horrible things, but those are so horrible the morality gets lost in the wash.

--Brant

no one will ever justify carpet bombing Gaza--not out of any morality or practicality; it would just be a stupid military strategy any of which always exist in a larger context

[moralist]

You can always find "the morally right thing"--but it's not morality; it's rationalization.

Objectively, it either is... or it isn't. Intentions don't count, only behavior matters. But the behavior you described is actually a revealing test of whether or not an action is moral. If our intellect comes up with all sorts of clever convoluted wordy justifications for what we did...

...we can bet we did something that's morally wrong!

War is immorality incarnate. Murder transmogrified into justified killing and dead babies are "collateral damage."

Yeah, that's the popular cry from the moral equivalence crowd today. War has changed from:

"fighting evil"...

...to

"fighting is evil".

In the present situation, "Collatoral damage" dead Palestinian babies shared the consequences set into motion by their evil jewhating fathers. The Palestinians want dead babies so that they can play the victim. Every person who does evil first sees themselves as a victim who angrily blames (unjustly accuses) others for the consequences they themselves had set into motion. That angry unjust accusation of others justifies spending billions of dollars on rockets and the tunnels instead of on farms and businesses and schools.

The sole purpose of the jewhaters is the destruction of Israel.

Greg

Israel could declare peace tomorrow... just stop digging tunnels and firing rockets. It's all up to the jewhaters. For they're the ones who are choosing to set into motion the consequences of their own actions.

[anthony]

It takes too much energy to hate everybody, the sheep as much as the shepherds. Returning hatred for hatred isn't in one's self-interest, only leading to moral equivocation. Does anybody believe Israelis (and now Jews, globally) are denounced for their 'immoral' actions? Only explicitly. Unconsciously, it is for their inherent morality they are despised. I think there is a moral distinction and responsibility between sorting out the stupid, the unthinking and easily influenced - from the really evil shits. Who knows too, how many silent, individual Gazans want no part of this, and have been always too fearful to speak up? We may hear more from them when this war is over. When the snake is decapitated.

[Brant Gaede]

You can always find "the morally right thing"--but it's not morality; it's rationalization.

Objectively, it either is... or it isn't. Intentions don't count, only behavior matters. But the behavior you described is actually a revealing test of whether or not an action is moral. If our intellect comes up with all sorts of clever convoluted wordy justifications for what we did...

...we can bet we did something that's morally wrong!

Let's say three armed men home invade me and I shotgun them to death, something I'm psychologically capable of doing--and I have the skill set. (If any were women I'd kill them too.) I would not think after the fact, not once, was I moral or immoral? Before the fact I've already decided it would be moral because as a practical matter you can't have those thoughts interferring with your trigger finger. My only concern right now in dealing with this hypothetical is do I drag them out of the house so the blood doesn't ruin my carpet (before the arrival of law enforcement)? I've decided to let them lay except to move them if blocking the door so my cats won't get out.

What I don't like is when a female interfers with this biologically rendered male function by tsk, tsking it in real life. When I cut a guy's arm in college who was going to kidnap and rape me, my sister didn't like the story while my brother-in-law gave me a double whiskey. (She also hated the movie Patton.) This explains my special fondness for gals who go armed.

--Brant

callous me

[Jules Troy]

In Canada we have to use a bit of restrain when confronted by home invaders. I was told by a law enforcement friend to make sure I fired a Warning shot" into the roof as well. Any witnesses would have just heard multiple shots not knowing the last shot is the one in the roof.

[Brant Gaede]

In Canada we have to use a bit of restrain when confronted by home invaders. I was told by a law enforcement friend to make sure I fired a Warning shot" into the roof as well. Any witnesses would have just heard multiple shots not knowing the last shot is the one in the roof.

Lucky you not to be living in Great Britain.

NYC cop advice (but don't say he said it): stop firing when your gun is empty.

Watch out for forensics. They'll track every bullet from impact back to where the gun was when fired.

--Brant

[Wolf DeVoon]

special fondness for gals who go armed.

you might like my pal Brigid http://mausersandmuffins.blogspot.com/2013/04/pocket-pistols-beretta-3032-tomcat.html

[Brant Gaede]

special fondness for gals who go armed.

you might like my pal Brigid http://mausersandmuffins.blogspot.com/2013/04/pocket-pistols-beretta-3032-tomcat.html

Screw the guns. It's the food!

--Brant

[Marc]

I don't think Hamas is using many suicide bombers. I don't think Hamas is in this for the religion but has the same secular deportment to the Jews as the Nazis did. The people you want to "carpet bomb" are confined to a prison called "Gaza" and the meanest SOBs in there run the joint. Such is the nature of a prison--one, btw, that Israel helped to set up and helped put Hamas in charge by bringing back the PLO from its northern African exile. That was the essential entre for Hamas.

I would like to see others' rationale for carpet bombing Gaza, if any one else is advocating that. Is the West Bank deserving of carpet bombing too? I don't think Hamas is doing much there, maybe nothing. But same religion, no? You seem to be second guessing the Israeli government which seems to winding this iteration of its war with Hamas down. Is this a mistake? The people in charge over there have data and analyses coming out of their ears. Are they failing in their strategy? Maybe. I don't know.

Let's see. Gaza has 1.82 million people packed in almost like sardines. If the US--Israel does not have the capability--were to use all its B-52 bombers packed with high explosive bombs, maybe it could kill a million, including the innocent youngsters. Those fleeing into Egypt could be strafed to death. Out in the open they'd have no chance. The high explosive bombing could be supplemented by incendiaries that would suck the oxygen out of the basements and remaining tunnels.

Afterwards--after the dead stopped stinking--bulldozers could be brought in to push all the debris into the sea. The newly available real estate could be used for parks and recreation or even industry--and maybe another Holocaust museum.

--Brant

Its a moot point because Israel does not carpet bomb . They want peace . The mistake was as I have said before is weak Israeli leaders who allowed the PLO to " come home " in effect . Then they played Hamas against PLO , or hedged bets or what have you . The only solution that I can ever see is allowing folks to vote . If this was done , all the Arab leaders - all 22 would be dead , or in exile , or in jail in "their" countries . The day that they vote , its over . People in North Korea , Cuba , and all these 22 States want the same thing mostly . Family , friends , eating , enjoying life . The issue is is school they are " educated " , about the Jew .

[Marc]

[Brant Gaede]

Since he's a "Gazan" and not a "Palistinian," we know he's neither.

--Brant

[Mikee]

I don't think Hamas is using many suicide bombers. I don't think Hamas is in this for the religion but has the same secular deportment to the Jews as the Nazis did. The people you want to "carpet bomb" are confined to a prison called "Gaza" and the meanest SOBs in there run the joint. Such is the nature of a prison--one, btw, that Israel helped to set up and helped put Hamas in charge by bringing back the PLO from its northern African exile. That was the essential entre for Hamas.

I would like to see others' rationale for carpet bombing Gaza, if any one else is advocating that. Is the West Bank deserving of carpet bombing too? I don't think Hamas is doing much there, maybe nothing. But same religion, no? You seem to be second guessing the Israeli government which seems to winding this iteration of its war with Hamas down. Is this a mistake? The people in charge over there have data and analyses coming out of their ears. Are they failing in their strategy? Maybe. I don't know.

Let's see. Gaza has 1.82 million people packed in almost like sardines. If the US--Israel does not have the capability--were to use all its B-52 bombers packed with high explosive bombs, maybe it could kill a million, including the innocent youngsters. Those fleeing into Egypt could be strafed to death. Out in the open they'd have no chance. The high explosive bombing could be supplemented by incendiaries that would suck the oxygen out of the basements and remaining tunnels.

Afterwards--after the dead stopped stinking--bulldozers could be brought in to push all the debris into the sea. The newly available real estate could be used for parks and recreation or even industry--and maybe another Holocaust museum.

--Brant

Its a moot point because Israel does not carpet bomb . They want peace . The mistake was as I have said before is weak Israeli leaders who allowed the PLO to " come home " in effect . Then they played Hamas against PLO , or hedged bets or what have you . The only solution that I can ever see is allowing folks to vote . If this was done , all the Arab leaders - all 22 would be dead , or in exile , or in jail in "their" countries . The day that they vote , its over . People in North Korea , Cuba , and all these 22 States want the same thing mostly . Family , friends , eating , enjoying life . The issue is is school they are " educated " , about the Jew .

Marc, you nailed it. I also believe the majority of people want the same thing, a peaceful life and family, if the people of Gaza weren't being held hostage by vicious thugs they would choose peace. There's the Stockholm syndrome, aka "capture-bonding", which explains the psychology of these people, remove the murderous thugs, they would choose peace.

Tony, you made me think of why collectivist's (socialists) so easily become anti-Semitic, they also hate the good for being the good.

[Wolf DeVoon]

Marc: Israelis want peace.

Mikee: If the people of Gaza weren't being held hostage by vicious thugs they would choose peace.

Marc: People in North Korea, Cuba want the same thing. Family, friends, eating, enjoying life.

 

-- uh, what do these guys want? (clockwise: East L.A., Guatemala, Chicago, Detroit)

 

This year's 240,000-person influx of illegal aliens have a symbiotic relationship with MS-13, paying them huge
smuggling fees and then moving to gang-infested neighborhoods in the U.S. [investor's Business Daily]

1.4 million are wearing the colors of 33,000 gangs across the country, according to the FBI. [business Insider]

[moralist]

You can always find "the morally right thing"--but it's not morality; it's rationalization.

Objectively, it either is... or it isn't. Intentions don't count, only behavior matters. But the behavior you described is actually a revealing test of whether or not an action is moral. If our intellect comes up with all sorts of clever convoluted wordy justifications for what we did...

...we can bet we did something that's morally wrong!

Let's say three armed men home invade me and I shotgun them to death, something I'm psychologically capable of doing--and I have the skill set. (If any were women I'd kill them too.) I would not think after the fact, not once, was I moral or immoral?

moral.

In my opinion, Brant... moral. The only immoral action would be to leave any of them alive.

Before the fact I've already decided it would be moral because as a practical matter you can't have those thoughts interfering with your trigger finger.

Absolutely. It takes the briefest of intellectual effort to realize that your home is your country and invaders set on doing you harm have already forfeited their right to life the instant they trespassed.

They're fair game.

Take them down.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

Uh, Wolf. That doesn't read like me. And if I was sarcastic I'd have used different words. On this kind of forum we need direct quotes so no one has to waste time figuring out WTF?!

--Brant

it looks like they want to be shot

went all the way back to my post 326 and I still can't find anything like this--from me (note, I've not completely disowned it; this came from somewhere)

Edited August 5, 2014 by Brant Gaede

[Wolf DeVoon]

Uh, Wolf. That doesn't read like me...

My mistake, sorry, it was Marc replying to you, above. I'm not as sharp as I used to be.

I'll go back and fix the quote.

[william.scherk]

The mistake was as I have said before is weak Israeli leaders who allowed the PLO to " come home " in effect . Then they played Hamas against PLO , or hedged bets or what have you . The only solution that I can ever see is allowing folks to vote . If this was done , all the Arab leaders - all 22 would be dead , or in exile , or in jail in "their" countries . The day that they vote , its over .

I don't get the part about the day after voting. Do you mean this to apply to Syria?** And should this also apply to Egypt? Both have had Presidential elections in the past year. One has a peace treaty with Israel, the other a truce lasting since 1973 (except for unanswered Israeli bombings in the last three years). And what about Lebanon? They have probably the free-est, fairest elections at the parliamentary level (while being unable to select a new President). Iraq? It is still struggling to form a new government after its recent parliamentary elections.

It doesn't seem to apply to Tunisia, the sole Middle East/North Africa country to come through revolution with democratic, constitutional, achievements intact, and with new ones in place.

It can't apply to the USA allies in the region: Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia. Even 'Syria-style' elections are a pipe-dream in those royally-ruled friends of America. In Jordan, elections have about as much import as those in Morocco, I would say.

It does apply to Pakistan, then? Or to Afghanistan? Their recent Presidential election is still (!) in recount.

Libya? Their new Parliament (at least a quorum) met today ...

Algeria? They recently re-elected their hundred-year old President to a fourth term.

In the Palestinian territories, the last election was a very long time ago by Western clocks. It would be very interesting to see the results of a free and fair election in both the West Bank and Gaza.

(of course, none of this electioning means the same thing as a Canadian national election, though Tunisia comes close, and I don't presume to know what elections mean without freedom to associate)

The day after they vote, I would say "It is not over, I'd say It tends to be more the same -- especially without the institutions that guarantee or support civil society or a turnover of power.

The most interesting election in the region seems to me to be Turkey's current Presidential campaign. There is no doubt who will win. And nothing will be 'over' when he takes larger power à la Putin. It will be more of the same AKP ...

Marc, would that you could sketch out what you know and what you hope about the 22 Arab/Muslim lands in the years to come.^† I am fairly clear on what you know and hope about Israel, or at least that you consider it mostly beyond reproach in war, deserving of criticism for its treatment of Arabs only where it has been too soft ... I want to hear your sorrowful or elegiac or angry estimation of these other 22 worlds to come this century.

________

** Syria's presidential election had three candidates, two of them hand-picked by the first guy, Assad. There were no parties involved. There were no rallies, no televised debates, no discussion of alternatives. All the refugees were without votes (except those that made it to an Embassy). Any area outside the control of the Syrian army did not vote. A sham, in other words.

† -- I am without especial hope for any country in the region other than Tunisia. The worst thing about the current conficts in Libya, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq are the refugees. For some, the Syrians especially, but also the current flood within Iraq, there will be no going home for the forseeable future. I don't see an end to the Syrian war, nor to the involvement of Iraqis, Iranians, and Hizbollah in that conflict. The so-called Islamic State will only be eradicated by the same evil means that have been used by almost every side. The Kurdish lands are simply not going to let the clock run back on their autonomous reality, in Syria and in Iraqi Kurdistan.

It looks like war, war, and more war, in Gaza, in Syria, in Kurdish/Yesidi lands, the areas under IS control, in the cleansed-of-Christians-and-Shiites lands ... of Iraq. In Afghanistan.

These years of turmoil have warped and damaged humanity, both in victims and in victors. I won't live long enough to see reconstruction and reconciliation, I don't think. The talk of carpet bombing and cleansing sickens me in all contexts, as does indiscriminate or disproportionate destruction. Hamas may need taking out as a military player in any form, reduced to a political party slash government with rocks, a lot of rocks. Hamas may need crushing, crushing with overwhelming force, extirpating any ability to lob more than its gravel.

Then what? A moat? An underground barrier wall? Gazans have no exit.

George Ourfalian/Reuters

Edited August 5, 2014 by william.scherk

[Jules Troy]

Bill they just need to wipe out HAMAS and adopt civil forms of engaging Israel. If they would just STOP lobbing rockets and act like actual humans then Israel would leave them alone. Hell they would even help them build their damn economy!

Oh but no now the muslims are showing their true colors on our home soil too.

http://pamelageller.com/2014/08/video-attack-muslims-attack-pro-israel-marine-dc-pro-terror-demo.html/

Oh sure it's just a few of them acting out of course. And were is the NSA rooting out all these bad apples? Oh RIGHT too damn busy spying on normal fing people that might OFFEND Islam!!

[Brant Gaede]

I think jejune carpet bombing was used in the Vietnam War against defuse and hidden under the dense vegetation targets using 500 pound high explosive bombs in the South and maybe the Christmas bombings of North Vietnam (Hanoi and Haiphong) in the fall of 1972 by B-52s. In regard to the latter, I don't think it could be accurately described as carpet bombing for there was too specific and particular targeting. In the South the object was to kill the enemy. In the North the object was to convince the South Vietnamese to go along with the peace being cooked up in Paris--so I once read. The North said "Ouch" and got what it wanted. The U.S. said "Great" and got its POWs back. The South got what it feared: loneliness followed by forced oblivion.

The true carpet or saturation bombing was an artifact of WWII, especially against German and Japanese cities. The Vietnam examples didn't come close to matching that horror. The Christmas bombings were somewhat comparable in death and destruction to what just happened in Gaza, except everything is more concentrated in Gaza.

Carpet bombing was replaced as a military tactic by atomic and nuclear bombs and outright city busting by smaller nuclear warheads focused on military as opposed to civilian targets. When my uncle was a navigator on B-36s out of Puerto Rico in the 1950s, each gigantic bomber carried only one gigantic city busting bomb. I imagine it was a one-megaton device, about 50 times more powerful than the Himoshima atomic bomb. 50 times more powerful, however, does not mean 50 times more destructive. I was told, though, in 1959 at a briefing by an Air Force officer I attended at the University of Arizona, that the radius of destruction greatly increased by increased altitude of detonation and it would be incineration, not blast, if high enough and a super 30-megaton device.

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I caught this on TheBlaze.

Dennis Prager explains the problem pretty well:

From the way I have seen people acting toward Israel over and over and over, I agree with him. They may deny it and say pretty words at times, but their acts are pretty consistent and have been for decades.

Michael

[moralist]

Dennis is producing excellent videos on a wide variety of political and moral topics. Some of them are getting incredible hit rates as the notoriety snowballs. These short videos are an excellent counter to the lying leftist bull***t.

Greg

[anthony]

I don't think Hamas is using many suicide bombers. I don't think Hamas is in this for the religion but has the same secular deportment to the Jews as the Nazis did. The people you want to "carpet bomb" are confined to a prison called "Gaza" and the meanest SOBs in there run the joint. Such is the nature of a prison--one, btw, that Israel helped to set up and helped put Hamas in charge by bringing back the PLO from its northern African exile. That was the essential entre for Hamas.

I would like to see others' rationale for carpet bombing Gaza, if any one else is advocating that. Is the West Bank deserving of carpet bombing too? I don't think Hamas is doing much there, maybe nothing. But same religion, no? You seem to be second guessing the Israeli government which seems to winding this iteration of its war with Hamas down. Is this a mistake? The people in charge over there have data and analyses coming out of their ears. Are they failing in their strategy? Maybe. I don't know.

Let's see. Gaza has 1.82 million people packed in almost like sardines. If the US--Israel does not have the capability--were to use all its B-52 bombers packed with high explosive bombs, maybe it could kill a million, including the innocent youngsters. Those fleeing into Egypt could be strafed to death. Out in the open they'd have no chance. The high explosive bombing could be supplemented by incendiaries that would suck the oxygen out of the basements and remaining tunnels.

Afterwards--after the dead stopped stinking--bulldozers could be brought in to push all the debris into the sea. The newly available real estate could be used for parks and recreation or even industry--and maybe another Holocaust museum.

--Brant

Its a moot point because Israel does not carpet bomb . They want peace . The mistake was as I have said before is weak Israeli leaders who allowed the PLO to " come home " in effect . Then they played Hamas against PLO , or hedged bets or what have you . The only solution that I can ever see is allowing folks to vote . If this was done , all the Arab leaders - all 22 would be dead , or in exile , or in jail in "their" countries . The day that they vote , its over . People in North Korea , Cuba , and all these 22 States want the same thing mostly . Family , friends , eating , enjoying life . The issue is is school they are " educated " , about the Jew .

Marc, you nailed it. I also believe the majority of people want the same thing, a peaceful life and family, if the people of Gaza weren't being held hostage by vicious thugs they would choose peace. There's the Stockholm syndrome, aka "capture-bonding", which explains the psychology of these people, remove the murderous thugs, they would choose peace.

Tony, you made me think of why collectivist's (socialists) so easily become anti-Semitic, they also hate the good for being the good.

Only that they (many Palestinians) want peace and prosperity - and revenge on the Jews, as the icing on top. It is the good for being the good, but to Hamas and its backers, it's also being "the good" in battle. Is it completely realised, the devastating shame every generation has to bear: that Jews beat Arab nations? Not only once, either. Fellow Arabs can kick Palestinians around, use them and forget them. But the shame of being treated like human beings by Jews! As bad as being beaten again. To those of long memory, Jews are still the second-class citizens they were living in Arab lands for 100's of years, (as my mother's family did) and should return to that status, or preferably get annihilated. That is what their children are dying for, their sick idea of 'honor'. You lost. Get over it. If Japanese could, so can they.