Natanyahu Lowers the Boom

[Marc]

Baal, I always find your style entertaining and I respect your opinions. In the case of Israel/Palestine, however, I am in favor of a two state solution and I'm not entirely happy with how Israel's officials have been handling Gaza, etc.

There is a 2 State solution ! Jordan .

Also another 2 State Solution , Gaza ( with not a Jew resident ) . Israeli soldiers carried Jews from their homes to make Gaza Jew free !!!!!!!

Then they took Israeli money , destroyed Israeli built property , killed their own citizens and built tunnels and rockets to attack .

They want a ONE State Solution .

[Marc]

Correct me if I'm mistaken. Chief poobah of the Ismailis is the Aga Khan? Nice man. Met him at the London Clinic.

... yep ... I clicked the link you provided. Jeez, we're both a lot older-looking!

Lets start

Are you sure about this, Wolf -- that apostasy in Gaza is punishable by death?

I dunno. Literature talks about honor killings and feuds -- but there's this item:

"In Gaza, the death penalty is enforced for various crimes, and members of the Ahmadi community hide their true beliefs." http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137789#.U-JyxWMnjIU

A death penalty can be issued by the Gazan authorities for murder and for collaboration with the enemy (Israel), according to my reading. I've been checking with the local Gaza civil society/human rights orgs, such as they are, for information on executions. The authorities in Gaza, much less than a state and more than a government, are supposed to reflect the primary law (that setting up the 'constitution' of the proto-state Palestine aka the Palestinian Authority).

That constitution reads like a lot of other Mideast constitutions, windy, expository, rambling, repeating the bumf of every other one about 'the indivisible Arab Nation' yadda yadda oppression blah blah blah. But.

Although it asserts Islam as the religion of Palestine, it also asserts freedom of religion. To quote: "Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect for the sanctity of all other divine religions shall be maintained." This should mean that the Christians of Palestine (West Bank and Gaza) operate as they wish, and their personal status (eg, religious identity, responsibility, demands) is not subject to Sharia. Nor to Jizya. Nor to other seemingly automatic institutions of an Islamic State that harry and curb the activities of non-Muslims.

So, in this sense, then, Gaza/Palestine has more freedom of religion than America's main Arab ally, Saudi Arabia, where professing Christianity is essentially a crime, and the sword is used against apostates, idolaters and sundry non-conformists).

-- I think you're right if instead of claiming Gaza Christians face the axe, you are strongly suggesting that things ain't easy for the small Christian (and Ahmadiyya) minorities in Palestine/Gaza. According to some reports, Christian practice was subject to open suppression and punishment as recently as ten years ago, rendering meaningless any constitutional brass and flowers for the dwindling Christians. Of course, the also-dwindling Israeli Christians don't always fare much better: there has been a steady pattering of attacks and insults upon Christians and places of worship -- by Jews.

Otherwise, useful link. Thanks.

*****************************

The Ahmadi are an interesting branch or sprout off the Islamic Tree. Given the evils that the so-called Islamic State is dispensing in Syria and Iraq, I am happy to read of the utter rejection and loathing of IS by my Muslim contacts and acquaintances. Revulsion against the ethno-religious cleansing underway is attached to IS itself, though, not to any and every Muslim.

However evil and stupid are the actions and policies of Hamas, from their covenant to their Iranian/Hezbollah funding, there are worse Islamic fascists (IS/ISIS/Nusra), worse allies (Hello, Pakistan!) as gauged by the fates of religious minorities.

(Adam, here's another chance for your eyes to glaze over, another (larger) minority Muslim group: the Ismailis. You will have noted that this kind of Muslim is active in Canada. One of them is Mayor of Calgary, for heaven's sake. Brant! they are taking over up here!)

)

Are we now collecting oxymorons on this thread ???

local Gaza civil society/human rights orgs,

Ok , dry ice , jumbo shrimp ,

MSK , can we move this to the oxymoron page in the coffee area ???

[Jules Troy]

I still think Israel is too soft on them. Give Palestinians a choice. Either they show good faith by removing HAMAS themselves or sit back and continue to let HAMAS rockets hide behind women and children. Just stop crying about their choices made and the casualties inflicted. It's their own damn fault. They started it.

[Marc]

I still think Israel is too soft on them. Give Palestinians a choice. Either they show good faith by removing HAMAS themselves or sit back and continue to let HAMAS rockets hide behind women and children. Just stop crying about their choices made and the casualties inflicted. It's their own damn fault. They started it.

Agreed but ......

The US boycott on Cuba started with that in mind and 55 years later , no revolt . Castro still there while what ... 9 Presidents or so have come and gone .

Palestinians ( sic Arabs ) , will fight till Israel is less than 1 Synagogue on 100 square metres in Tel Aviv God forbid .

This is about something else folks

[Marc]

I still think Israel is too soft on them. Give Palestinians a choice. Either they show good faith by removing HAMAS themselves or sit back and continue to let HAMAS rockets hide behind women and children. Just stop crying about their choices made and the casualties inflicted. It's their own damn fault. They started it.

Agreed but ......

The US boycott on Cuba started with that in mind and 55 years later , no revolt . Castro still there while what ... 9 Presidents or so have come and gone .

Palestinians ( sic Arabs ) , will fight till Israel is less than 1 Synagogue on 100 square metres in Tel Aviv God forbid .

This is about something else folks

They cannot remove Hamas , Hamas is the Palestinians is the PLO , is the Iranians , is the Jew hater , is the Saudi , is the ME game .

[Marc]

http://thefederalist.com/2014/08/06/maybe-rand-paul-was-right-about-aid-to-israel/

Great article that Yaron Brook just posted about how Israel should not get foreign aid from the US , I disagree but still he makes great points - the journalist

[Wolf DeVoon]

http://thefederalist.com/2014/08/06/maybe-rand-paul-was-right-about-aid-to-israel/

Great article that Yaron Brook just posted about how Israel should not get foreign aid from the US , I disagree but still he makes great points - the journalist

To date: $250 billion US govt cash, plus $50 billion private US aid, $300 billion Ex-Im guarantees, crude oil supply guarantee.

Why stop now? - to pretend Truman didn't create Israel? Scoop Jackson didn't make Russia let 1 million Jews emigrate to Israel?

Where did Israel get its weapon-grade uranium? or triggers?

Awful damn silly to pretend that 'The Great Satan' is just an innocent bystander all of a sudden, after Iraq.

[Marc]

http://thefederalist.com/2014/08/06/maybe-rand-paul-was-right-about-aid-to-israel/

Great article that Yaron Brook just posted about how Israel should not get foreign aid from the US , I disagree but still he makes great points - the journalist

To date: $250 billion US govt cash, $50 billion private US aid, $300 billion Ex-Im guarantee, crude oil supply guarantee. Why stop now?

hahahahhaahha !!!!!!!!!!! Exactly my thoughts ! I agree with former CIA director , whats his name , George Tenat ? Israel saves the US 10x the 4 billion every year . But what would George Tenat know ?

[Wolf DeVoon]

"I still lie awake at night thinking about everything that could have been, that wasn't done to stop 9/11. To the 9/11 families, I said, you deserve better from your entire government. All of us," Tenet says. If he lies awake, men like Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Midhar, two of the 9/11 hijackers, are among the reasons. Before 9/11, Tenet's CIA headquarters knew that they were al Qaeda and in America. But the information was filed, not passed to the FBI... Tenet told 60 Minutes the war in Iraq is "a national tragedy." He says he realized it was the end of his career when he picked up The Washington Post and saw that he was being blamed for the decision to go to war. [CBS]

White House and Pentagon officials, and particularly Vice President Cheney, were determined to attack Iraq from the first days of the Bush administration, long before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, and repeatedly stretched available intelligence to build support for the war, according to a new book by former CIA director George J. Tenet. Although Tenet does not question the threat Saddam Hussein posed or the sincerity of administration beliefs, he recounts numerous efforts by aides to Cheney and then-Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld to insert "crap" into public justifications for the war. [Washington Post]

Does gossip count for anything? or a confession? or a Jewish cabal in plain sight?

[Marc]

"I still lie awake at night thinking about everything that could have been, that wasn't done to stop 9/11. To the 9/11 families, I said, you deserve better from your entire government. All of us," Tenet says. If he lies awake, men like Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Midhar, two of the 9/11 hijackers, are among the reasons. Before 9/11, Tenet's CIA headquarters knew that they were al Qaeda and in America. But the information was filed, not passed to the FBI... Tenet told 60 Minutes the war in Iraq is "a national tragedy." He says he realized it was the end of his career when he picked up The Washington Post and saw that he was being blamed for the decision to go to war. [CBS]

White House and Pentagon officials, and particularly Vice President Cheney, were determined to attack Iraq from the first days of the Bush administration, long before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, and repeatedly stretched available intelligence to build support for the war, according to a new book by former CIA director George J. Tenet. Although Tenet does not question the threat Saddam Hussein posed or the sincerity of administration beliefs, he recounts numerous efforts by aides to Cheney and then-Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld to insert "crap" into public justifications for the war. [Washington Post]

Does gossip count for anything? or a confession? or a Jewish cabal in plain sight?

Excellent quote , kind thanks sir

[Brant Gaede]

It was mostly George Bush. The others were there to help. He was going to invade Iraq. I was against it then but had no good idea how bad it would turn out. New tasks and projects are generally more difficult than prior imaginings. A hammer hammers. Bush the Hammer; Hussein the nail.

--Brant

the bigger the war the bigger the Presidential failure: Lincoln gets a 10, Wilson a 10, Roosevelt an 8, Johnson a 7, Bush a 5

[Wolf DeVoon]

It was mostly George Bush. The others were there to help. He was going to invade Iraq. I was against it then but had no good idea how bad it would turn out. New tasks and projects are generally more difficult than prior imaginings. A hammer hammers. Bush the Hammer; Hussein the nail.

--Brant

the bigger the war the bigger the Presidential failure: Lincoln gets a 10, Wilson a 10, Roosevelt an 8, Johnson a 7, Bush a 5

 

I dunno, Brant. He was (still is) awfully damn dumb.

 

"People say, how can I help on this war against terror? How can I fight evil? You can do so by mentoring a

child; by going into a shut-in's house and say I love you." --George Bush, Washington, D.C., Sept. 19, 2002

 

A president offers hope - the hope of reunions and a love stronger than death, and justice beyond our understanding. And let me just read a portion of what he said at the National Cathedral on September 14 in 2001 - just an example of how we use religious language:

"God's signs are not always the ones we look for. We learn in tragedy that His purposes are not always our own. Yet the prayers of private suffering, whether in our homes or in this great cathedral, are known and heard and understood. There are prayers that help us last through the day or endure the night. There are prayers of friends and strangers that give us strength for the journey, and there are prayers that yield our will to a Will greater than our own. This world He created is of moral design. Grief and tragedy and hatred are only for a time. Goodness, remembrance and love have no end, and the Lord of life holds all who die and all who mourn."

-- evangelical Michael Gerson, chief Bush speechwriter (2000-2006)

[Brant Gaede]

I didn't say he was smart. Nixon and Clinton were the smartest modern Presidents. Nixon was extremely dangerous, but fortunately had a war to wind down, not ramp up. Kennedy had to clean up his own messes through the Cuban missile crisis--the closest we came to a massive nuclear exchange--and Reagan had no good idea how close he brought the country to the same thing as it stayed beneath the surface. The problem was his recognized antagonism to the Soviet Union plus some huge simulated war game the U.S. put on that alarmed the Soviet military to the extent of wondering if they were looking at a first strike. They thought a missile was coming right at them, but some Colonel over there spiked the whole thing when he thought why only one missile when there should be hundreds? Shortly afterwards the simulation ended and suddenly all the electronic screens they were looking at went blank.

--Brant

[Samson Corwell]

The Palestinians freely chose the moral values by which they live

You can't possibly be so stupid as to believe that. Women and children independently chose to live in squalor and wreckage?

Don't you understand that the people depicted in the photos get "what they deserve"? I believe Greg has mentioned this 2,206 times.

(2,207)

They are getting exactly what they deserve. The jewhating women support their jewhating husbands and the little kids are taught jewhate by their jewhating parents.

Hamas motto:

"WE LOVE DEATH MORE THAN THE JEWS LOVE LIFE."

This death spiral is completely self lnflicted.

Greg

You, sir, are a sick, sick puppy. Get your username changed.

[Brant Gaede]

The Palestinians freely chose the moral values by which they live

You can't possibly be so stupid as to believe that. Women and children independently chose to live in squalor and wreckage?

Don't you understand that the people depicted in the photos get "what they deserve"? I believe Greg has mentioned this 2,206 times.

(2,207)

They are getting exactly what they deserve. The jewhating women support their jewhating husbands and the little kids are taught jewhate by their jewhating parents.

Hamas motto:

"WE LOVE DEATH MORE THAN THE JEWS LOVE LIFE."

This death spiral is completely self lnflicted.

Greg

You, sir, are a sick, sick puppy. Get your username changed.

It's preacher talk. He's on a moral merry-go-round. His conclusions chase his data.

--Brant

what did 6 million Jews do to deserve the Holocaust--hate Nazis?

[moralist]

You, sir, are a sick, sick puppy. Get your username changed.

The Jews alone possess a unique power. They completely polarize all of humanity with no middle ground to reveal everyone for what they are.

Greg

[moralist]

The Palestinians freely chose the moral values by which they live

You can't possibly be so stupid as to believe that. Women and children independently chose to live in squalor and wreckage?

Don't you understand that the people depicted in the photos get "what they deserve"? I believe Greg has mentioned this 2,206 times.

(2,207)

They are getting exactly what they deserve. The jewhating women support their jewhating husbands and the little kids are taught jewhate by their jewhating parents.

Hamas motto:

"WE LOVE DEATH MORE THAN THE JEWS LOVE LIFE."

This death spiral is completely self lnflicted.

Greg

You, sir, are a sick, sick puppy. Get your username changed.

It's preacher talk.

Just a bit friendly advice, Brant...

It would be best for you to go back to ignoring me so that the pattern of getting drawn in and pissed off doesn't get repeated again.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

The horror.

--Brant

I was pissed off at Marc, only tired of your complete lack of caring of facts and logic moated outside your essentially religious world--and I never used "ignore" to ignore you (or Marc), I only used that for Kyrel--as for you qua me, you are free to roam here and I'm still free to piss you off as I seem to be able to do albeit just a little (you surely don't think I think you made your comment out of altruistic concern for my well being? [you can "ignore" me too, you know])

I am in wonder by how you think little children getting blown up deserve it

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

He has answered that before and even in this quoted post.

He gives full moral agency to adults, not children. The deaths of children are due to the morality of the parents and culture that taught them to be budding immoral people.

That's how I understand it.

When you see a small child about 5 years old (like on Palestinian TV as shown on MEMRI, which I saw a while back), saying under adult prompting, that all Jews are pigs, they are dirty, and they need to be killed, then laughing, there's no way to call that morally neutral. Not even at the child's level, even though the child does not have complete moral agency.

That's evil.

That child will have a hell of an issue regarding Jews to think about as an adult, but she (I remember the child being a girl) will have a choice to think about it every day of her life. It's in that choice her own morality will lie.

Also, even though Greg comes from a chosen people perspective re Jews, which is metaphysical, I take his statements in the epistemological sense only. And from that perspective, I believe assuming full moral responsibility--and that means full--for the way you think and make yourself do is a very good thing.

Michael

[Mikee]

The horror.

--Brant

I was pissed off at Marc, only tired of your complete lack of caring of facts and logic moated outside your essentially religious world--and I never used "ignore" to ignore you (or Marc), I only used that for Kyrel--as for you qua me, you are free to roam here and I'm still free to piss you off as I seem to be able to do albeit just a little (you surely don't think I think you made your comment out of altruistic concern for my well being? [you can "ignore" me too, you know])

I am in wonder by how you think little children getting blown up deserve it

"You get what you deserve" is corollary to "there's nobody there" [-Branden]

Greg pov is probably the only thing that could possibly help the people of Gaza get rid of Hamas. I'm surprised you can't see that.

You ignored Kyrel? Over what?

[Brant Gaede]

The horror.

--Brant

I was pissed off at Marc, only tired of your complete lack of caring of facts and logic moated outside your essentially religious world--and I never used "ignore" to ignore you (or Marc), I only used that for Kyrel--as for you qua me, you are free to roam here and I'm still free to piss you off as I seem to be able to do albeit just a little (you surely don't think I think you made your comment out of altruistic concern for my well being? [you can "ignore" me too, you know])

I am in wonder by how you think little children getting blown up deserve it

"You get what you deserve" is corollary to "there's nobody there" [-Branden]

Greg pov is probably the only thing that could possibly help the people of Gaza get rid of Hamas. I'm surprised you can't see that.

You ignored Kyrel? Over what?

A couple of things in his book which I decided not to continue to review after I read them. They were quite beyond discussion, but I was reviewing it section by section as I read it when I hit them so I spiked everything.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

Brant,

He has answered that before and even in this quoted post.

He gives full moral agency to adults, not children. The deaths of children are due to the morality of the parents and culture that taught them to be budding immoral people.

That's how I understand it.

When you see a small child about 5 years old (like on Palestinian TV as shown on MEMRI, which I saw a while back), saying under adult prompting, that all Jews are pigs, they are dirty, and they need to be killed, then laughing, there's no way to call that morally neutral. Not even at the child's level, even though the child does not have complete moral agency.

That's evil.

That child will have a hell of an issue regarding Jews to think about as an adult, but she (I remember the child being a girl) will have a choice to think about it every day of her life. It's in that choice her own morality will lie.

Also, even though Greg comes from a chosen people perspective re Jews, which is metaphysical, I take his statements in the epistemological sense only. And from that perspective, I believe assuming full moral responsibility--and that means full--for the way you think and make yourself do is a very good thing.

Michael

Michael, Greg did not write your post. That's the problem. Now we have something to talk about, except it's mostly obvious. Greg will just repeat himself in one of those continuous loops of his. What you wrote he didn't deserve. I do understand "deserve" has nothing to do with it except from his perspective.

--Brant

[Jules Troy]

Reason enough, this is the ultimate in evil, brainwashing children to this scarring their development for life, innocent civilians? More like preemptive ly killing tommorrows monsters. This is nazism with a religious twist.

And yet the Israelis being compassionate treat their enemies injuries, send food, water and everything else.

[Jules Troy]

Crap I posted the above on the wrong damn thread, sorry guys(long night !)

(NOTE FROM MSK: I fixed it.)

[Brant Gaede]

What Israel should do with Gaza is a question of Israeli state security. Third parties, especially the US and EU members, should be butted out if congruent with that since they are not interested in Israel's security. Since Israel is at war, thanks to the Palestinian Authority and its minions and partners, Israel should behave accordingly.

Of course Israel has to pretend and say this and that for both tactical and strategic reasons, for if it runs out of ammo it's going to need to be re-supplied. In most cases the American President doesn't have to lie for the country is so powerful, but the present one lies all the time. The PM of Israel must be an accomplished liar; it's a job necessity and requirement. It's all for the public consumption by wherever they are hoi polloi in case they get uppity. Oil on the water. Everybody with power knows what's really going on. The moral authority of truth as a practical matter is the unexercised power of the POTUS. No one else can afford it. Hamas sure can't. The truth of Hamas is it's scum.

A POTUS who tells the truth enables truth telling more generally.

--Brant

Mr. Softee