The Exploitation of Trayvon Martin

[caroljane]

Carol, you know when you look at a person, a stranger, you see something. You summon all the generalizations you've learn to live by to help you make an educated guess as to what that person is about. Why? Because if you didn't do that you'd have people going up to gang members in rough areas and asking for directions to Bed Bath and Beyond.

Yes, he saw something. He saw a suspicious looking punk looking into people's windows.

Sez he. There is no corroboration.

[caroljane]

A similar thing although not comparable, happened to me last summer. I was passing on the street a young (to me that is, he was 30ish) tattooed black guy in a wifebeater who appeared drunk or high or both. He smiled and said, "Hey momma, lookin good! Want to spend the afternoon with me?" (It was evening actually). Though flattered I declined and he did not take offence.

[Brant Gaede]

Daunce wrote:

In Old Man Taylor's maunderings about collectivism and individualism, he has failed to note that Zimmerman did not; apparently perceive Martin as an individual; his first words to the stranger were not "who are you?" but "what are you doing here?" This says to me that he had already decided who and what Martin was. Again in the prosecution's words, he had profiled him.

end quote

That is a stretch, Carol. The word “you” means he was talking to an individual. “What are you!” would signify seeing Godzilla, so, "what are you doing here?" is in no way racist

Peter

Here you make my point for me, Peter. Zimmerman looked at Trayvon Martin, and he saw Godzilla.

Punching him in the face.

--Brant

[Dglgmut]

A similar thing although not comparable, happened to me last summer. I was passing on the street a young (to me that is, he was 30ish) tattooed black guy in a wifebeater who appeared drunk or high or both. He smiled and said, "Hey momma, lookin good! Want to spend the afternoon with me?" (It was evening actually). Though flattered I declined and he did not take offence.

And you use this example because you were scared of this guy, but decided as a guilty white person you cannot let your judgment be affected by such generalizations.

Nothing bad happened in your case--in your one example of being in contact with a person that looked threatening enough that you remembered it and brought it up here--so obviously anyone who avoids these encounters is unfairly profiling.

And if that guy had mugged or raped you, would that story have been enough to think in exactly the opposite way?

As Patrice O'neal said, "Run, stupid! Get home, feel guilty, but be alive. I'd rather be guilty and alive than feeling good about myself and dead."

Being suspicious of someone based on generalizations is not a crime, it's common sense.

[caroljane]

A similar thing although not comparable, happened to me last summer. I was passing on the street a young (to me that is, he was 30ish) tattooed black guy in a wifebeater who appeared drunk or high or both. He smiled and said, "Hey momma, lookin good! Want to spend the afternoon with me?" (It was evening actually). Though flattered I declined and he did not take offence.

And you use this example because you were scared of this guy, but decided as a guilty white person you cannot let your judgment be affected by such generalizations.

Nothing bad happened in your case--in your one example of being in contact with a person that looked threatening enough that you remembered it and brought it up here--so obviously anyone who avoids these encounters is unfairly profiling.

And if that guy had mugged or raped you, would that story have been enough to think in exactly the opposite way?

As Patrice O'neal said, "Run, stupid! Get home, feel guilty, but be alive. I'd rather be guilty and alive than feeling good about myself and dead."

Being suspicious of someone based on generalizations is not a crime, it's common sense.

For godsakes Calvin, I was not scared, it was a public sidewalk and he looked funny and goofy, wasted but happy.I have never felt fear on my city streets day or night, as my own experience has not given me reason to.

[Selene]

The Chief of Police kept Trayvon’s rap-sheet from the jury.

Apparently, Martin had been caught with a weapon, burglary tools, possible stolen jewelry. graffiti, and marijuana possession truancy.

And when he was shot to death, he was also under school suspension.

[Ellen Stuttle]

As we reported earlier today, scores of Twitter users have threatened to riot and loot if George Zimmerman is acquitted.

Other prominent voices have also warned of potential civil unrest, including former Chicago police officer Paul Huebl, who said that he fully expects organized race rioting to begin in every major city to dwarf the Rodney King and the Martin Luther King riots of past decades if Zimmerman walks.

With police already going door to door to calm Sanford residents in anticipation of unrest, some are worried that social disorder could be used as a pretext for gun confiscation in a similar vein to how Hurricane Katrina was used as a justification to disarm residents of New Orleans.

This is just the tip of the ice berg...

http://www.infowars.com/ex-chicago-cop-zimmerman-acquittal-to-cause-race-riots/

Some are even asking whether the law should be ignored and Zimmerman convicted simply to avoid race riots.

"Regardless of whether or not Zimmerman acted in self defense, a large segment of the population, particularly the black population, are demanding Zimmerman be punished. And if they dont have their demands satisfied, it is possible they might riot, writes a poster at the Aesops Retreat forum. So would it be appropriate to consider potential riots when deciding on whether or not to prosecute Zimmerman? Or should justice be blind and follow the rule of law?"

I can't get the link to the Aesops Retreat forum to work. The web's being sluggish, probably 4th of July overload.

Ellen

[caroljane]

"prominent voices...some are worried..it is possible..." yeah, thanks Alex for the perennial race-war crap from the usual "prominent voices", yourself and Lew Rockwell.

You have not yet provided me with one MSM salivating riot-feeding example.

[Darrell Hougen]

Carol,

I've been reading your posts too, and it really sounds like you have it in for Zimmerman. I don't think you're being fair to him. I just see Zimmerman as an overly ambitious law-and-order nerd who got himself into a situation he couldn't handle. Trayvon probably got mad that he was being followed and decided to teach Zimmerman a lesson, not knowing that Zimmerman had a gun. The rest, as they say, is history. Do you have a more plausible scenario?

Darrell

There is no doubt that Zimmerman killed another person. Now he has some 'splainin to do.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Ok Robert, since you decided to jump to Carol's defense, do you have a more plausible scenario?

Darrell

Edited July 5, 2013 by Darrell Hougen

[caroljane]

As we reported earlier today, scores of Twitter users have threatened to riot and loot if George Zimmerman is acquitted.

Other prominent voices have also warned of potential civil unrest, including former Chicago police officer Paul Huebl, who said that he fully expects organized race rioting to begin in every major city to dwarf the Rodney King and the Martin Luther King riots of past decades if Zimmerman walks.

With police already going door to door to calm Sanford residents in anticipation of unrest, some are worried that social disorder could be used as a pretext for gun confiscation in a similar vein to how Hurricane Katrina was used as a justification to disarm residents of New Orleans.

This is just the tip of the ice berg...

http://www.infowars.com/ex-chicago-cop-zimmerman-acquittal-to-cause-race-riots/

Some are even asking whether the law should be ignored and Zimmerman convicted simply to avoid race riots.

"Regardless of whether or not Zimmerman acted in self defense, a large segment of the population, particularly the black population, are demanding Zimmerman be punished. And if they dont have their demands satisfied, it is possible they might riot, writes a poster at the Aesops Retreat forum. So would it be appropriate to consider potential riots when deciding on whether or not to prosecute Zimmerman? Or should justice be blind and follow the rule of law?"

I can't get the link to the Aesops Retreat forum to work. The web's being sluggish, probably 4th of July overload.

Ellen

. Ellen, I got the site. The first thing I clicked on was a glenn beck quote, which turned my stomach. They also trust WND as a credible news source.

[Brant Gaede]

The Chief of Police kept Trayvon’s rap-sheet from the jury.

Apparently, Martin had been caught with a weapon, burglary tools, possible stolen jewelry. graffiti, and marijuana possession truancy.

And when he was shot to death, he was also under school suspension.

Good and bad.

How do you get caught with graffiti?

What was the weapon?

Was the jewelry stolen?

What is "marijuana possession truancy"?

I have burglary tools in my carport. (I need the extra income.)

All public schools should be suspended--permanently--which means he's a pioneer(?).

--Brant

[Serapis Bey]

A similar thing although not comparable, happened to me last summer. I was passing on the street a young (to me that is, he was 30ish) tattooed black guy in a wifebeater who appeared drunk or high or both. He smiled and said, "Hey momma, lookin good! Want to spend the afternoon with me?" (It was evening actually). Though flattered I declined and he did not take offence.

This reminded me of that scene from Haneke's Code Unknown. I couldn't find the clip with subtitles, but one gets the gist:

These sorts of things can go either way.

[caroljane]

My son possessed marijuana and had it in his system at age 17, and likely still does (I don't ask).He has also had jewelry on his person and although not suspended from school, sure deserved to be, for breaking the windows of said school.

Are these indications of hopeless criminality?

[Selene]

Are these indications of hopeless criminality?

No.

[Dglgmut]

Are these indications of hopeless criminality?

What does "hopeless criminality" have to do with this? Nobody is debating whether or not Trayvon deserved to die, but whether or not he put himself in the position that he could reasonably be killed.

If he threatened Zimmerman's life, then yes, he chose his own fate.

[Brant Gaede]

My son possessed marijuana and had it in his system at age 17, and likely still does (I don't ask).He has also had jewelry on his person and although not suspended from school, sure deserved to be, for breaking the windows of said school.

Are these indications of hopeless criminality?

You betcha!

He can join my gang anytime, and we'll all go to your place for eats.

--Brant

mothers are the last to know

[Dglgmut]

For godsakes Calvin, I was not scared, it was a public sidewalk and he looked funny and goofy, wasted but happy.I have never felt fear on my city streets day or night, as my own experience has not given me reason to.

What was the point of bringing it up, then? If he didn't seem threatening, you obviously chose the example because the guy was black. I thought you said you agree that this isn't about race?

You have never feared anyone in Toronto? You know violent crimes are committed in Toronto, whether or not your personal experience supports that.

[Ellen Stuttle]

Question from ignorance.

I wasn't paying attention at the time to the Rodney King trial and I never subsequently looked into the rights and wrongs of it.

What do people here think about the verdict? Was it a miscarriage of justice or the correct decision?

Ellen

[Selene]

Question from ignorance.

I wasn't paying attention at the time to the Rodney King trial and I never subsequently looked into the rights and wrongs of it.

What do people here think about the verdict? Was it a miscarriage of justice or the correct decision?

Ellen

Ellen:

I assume that you mean the State trial of the four (4) police officers who subdued Rodney with batons that was caught on video tape, correct?

The four (4) officers were also, after being acquitted on the state charges, indicted for Federal civil rights charges and tried.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King

To the best of my knowledge, King was never tried for anything. However, I could be wrong about that.

A...

[caroljane]

For godsakes Calvin, I was not scared, it was a public sidewalk and he looked funny and goofy, wasted but happy.I have never felt fear on my city streets day or night, as my own experience has not given me reason to.

What was the point of bringing it up, then? If he didn't seem threatening, you obviously chose the example because the guy was black. I thought you said you agree that this isn't about race?

You have never feared anyone in Toronto? You know violent crimes are committed in Toronto, whether or not your personal experience supports that.

I brought it up, I guess, just to show that urban life everywhere is not the tense no-mans-land so often evoked by reports of crimes like this. Of course I know of the violence and gang activity that occurs here. And when I have been in the areas where it occurs most I have felt uneasy and wary. But I have never felt frightened that I, personally, would be a target of it .

[caroljane]

I find it interesting that Martin, although no Eagle Scout, at age 17 had never been charged with any crimes. This is pretty good going for an American male, since an astounding percentage of them will be convicted of something and slung in the slammer at some point in their lives.

Zimmerman by contrast has been charged with "resisting an officer with violence" and "battery on a police officer." Also accused of domestic violence by an ex.

[Brant Gaede]

I find it interesting that Martin, although no Eagle Scout, at age 17 had never been charged with any crimes. This is pretty good going for an American male, since an astounding percentage of them will be convicted of something and slung in the slammer at some point in their lives.

American black male.

--Brant

there are reasons not one to do with genes

[caroljane]

The all-woman jury is an interesting factor. Zimmerman is appealing, with his sad eyes and his chipmunk cheeks and his devotion to law and order. Will the jurors identify with him as their protector or son or brother, or with Martin, or Martin's mother?

[Ellen Stuttle]

Question from ignorance.

I wasn't paying attention at the time to the Rodney King trial and I never subsequently looked into the rights and wrongs of it.

What do people here think about the verdict? Was it a miscarriage of justice or the correct decision?

Ellen

Ellen:

I assume that you mean the State trial of the four (4) police officers who subdued Rodney with batons that was caught on video tape, correct?

The four (4) officers were also, after being acquitted on the state charges, indicted for Federal civil rights charges and tried.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King

To the best of my knowledge, King was never tried for anything. However, I could be wrong about that.

A...

Adam,

Sorry for the unclarity. Yes, I meant the State trial of the police officers.

What I'm wondering about, because of the talk of possible rioting if Zimmerman is acquitted, is perception in the trial of the police officers who beat King that the verdict was unjust, that the officers should have been found guilty.

From the Wikipedia article you linked:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King

Though few people at first considered race an important factor in the case, including Rodney King's attorney, Steven Lerman, the sensitizing effect of the Holliday videotape was at the time stirring deep resentment in Los Angeles, as well as other major cities in the United States. The officers' jury consisted of Ventura County residents: ten white; one Latino; one Asian. Lead Prosecutor Terry White was African American. On April 29, 1992, the jury acquitted three of the officers, but could not agree on one of the charges against Powell.[9]

Los Angeles Mayor Tom Bradley said, "The jury's verdict will not blind us to what we saw on that videotape. The men who beat Rodney King do not deserve to wear the uniform of the L.A.P.D."[30] President George H. W. Bush said, "Viewed from outside the trial, it was hard to understand how the verdict could possibly square with the video. Those civil rights leaders with whom I met were stunned. And so was I and so was Barbara and so were my kids."[31]

Los Angeles riots and the aftermath[edit]

Main article: 1992 Los Angeles riots

The acquittals are considered to have triggered the Los Angeles riots of 1992. By the time the police, the U.S. Army, Marines and National Guard restored order, the riots had caused 53 deaths, 2,383 injuries, more than 7,000 fires, damage to 3,100 businesses, and nearly $1 billion in financial losses. Smaller riots occurred in other cities such as San Francisco, Las Vegas in neighboring Nevada and as far east as Atlanta, Georgia. A minor riot erupted on Yonge St., in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, as a result of the acquittals.

Ellen

[Selene]

Ellen:

Not being at the scene where King was subdued by the officers, and, purely by the visuals, the verdict seemed unjust.

An unjust verdict does not justify what happened afterwards. Completely innocent Asian business owners had to deploy with AK-47s to protect their property.

Innocent whites were savagely attacked. One particular truck driver was almost killed by a brick to his head.

During the 1968 riots that swept the country when Martin Luther King was assassinated, stunned my father, who found it difficult to understand why his men were attacked with bricks when they responded to fires.

I also refuse to pat the rioters on the head and say good boys and girls, I understand your anger.

I do not respect you for attacking innocent folks and businesses.

I could respect you if you attacked the systems centers that allegedly wronged you.

A...