The Exploitation of Trayvon Martin

[caroljane]

Adam,

"I am sure you subconsciously support the media drumbeats for riots..."

Really? You are sure about my subconscious? I am not sure about yours, although I think we know each other pretty well.

My conscious does not support such a thing. Frankly I find your presumption hurtful and insulting.

Good, it was a probe.

Are you aware that the media is fueling the fire for riots when he is acquitted?

A...

No, I am not aware of that, I haven't read anything here about possible riots. What media?

[BaalChatzaf]

Adam,

"I am sure you subconsciously support the media drumbeats for riots..."

Really? You are sure about my subconscious? I am not sure about yours, although I think we know each other pretty well.

My conscious does not support such a thing. Frankly I find your presumption hurtful and insulting.

Beware of people who think they can read minds. No one can read a mind other than the one in one's head assuming it is there.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

Carol:

The prosecution has to prove he had bad intent and this they cannot possibly prove.

Secondly, as to the main stream and secondary media seeking riots, I will assemble that later today for you.

A...

[caroljane]

DDL, you are exactly right. Few people actively seek out things to be outraged about (somebody here called them Injustice Collectors, excellent term), the rest of us just react to what comes to our notice and strikes a chord. This case strikes several chords with many and the result is, of course, discordancy.

My chord is the corner store, the teenage boy in a strange neighbourhood. My own son was stopped in the same way, by the police - half a block from his own home - because he was wearing a basketball shirt identical to that of a youth who had been reported attempting to vandalize cars nearby. Although we found later that the vandal was an Asian or Filipino, about 16, 5'7 or 8 with dreadlocks, they arrested my 6'1 20-year-old white short-haired son, kept him in jail overnight and actually took the case right to trial, where they had to drop charges right before proceedings were to begin.

The police were mistaken about who he was. But he is still alive.

You have a son Deanna,and I have two. Most reading this thread have been young men themselves. They identify with the older man who felt threatened by the younger. But I imagine my boys in both positions.

I should make it clear that the police knew the description of the alleged vandal when they grabbed Andy. They did not ask the witness to identify him, (because they knew they would then have to let him go and be deprived of their arrest?)They just locked him up. Because they could.

[Selene]

I should make it clear that the police knew the description of the alleged vandal when they grabbed Andy. They did not ask the witness to identify him, (because they knew they would then have to let him go and be deprived of their arrest?)They just locked him up. Because they could.

And when you and Andy sued for false arrest/imprisonment, what happened?

[Darrell Hougen]

My chord is the corner store, the teenage boy in a strange neighbourhood. My own son was stopped in the same way, by the police - half a block from his own home - because he was wearing a basketball shirt identical to that of a youth who had been reported attempting to vandalize cars nearby. Although we found later that the vandal was an Asian or Filipino, about 16, 5'7 or 8 with dreadlocks, they arrested my 6'1 20-year-old white short-haired son, kept him in jail overnight and actually took the case right to trial, where they had to drop charges right before proceedings were to begin.

Hi Carol,

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. As a parent of three children including two sons who like to wear hoodies, I sympathize with your feelings. But, this isn't about feelings. It's about who did what to whom.

Darrell

Thanks Darrell, of course it is about actions, but it is very much about feelings, Zimmerman's feelings. He needs to prove he felt deadly fear of Martin.

No, the prosecution needs to prove either that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation and that Martin was justified in knocking him down and beating him or that a reasonable person would not have feared for his life or health while lying on the ground being beaten.

In other words, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. Zimmerman doesn't need to prove anything. His defense just needs to raise reasonable doubts about the prosecution's version of events. At least, that is how it is supposed to work if the jury is doing it's job properly.

EDIT: I should add that intent is also necessary to prove first degree murder, as Adam has pointed out, but I don't think the prosecution can even prove manslaughter.

Darrell

[caroljane]

Certainly it needs to be proved that Martin was the initiator, that he knocked down and beat Zimmerman, and most importantly that Z's head wounds were caused by Martin. There needs to be more evidence on that than Zimmerman's unsupported word.

[caroljane]

Z also needs to prove that his recorded words about "a**holes and punks " who "always get away" do not denote spite.

[Darrell Hougen]

Certainly it needs to be proved that Martin was the initiator, that he knocked down and beat Zimmerman, and most importantly that Z's head wounds were caused by Martin. There needs to be more evidence on that than Zimmerman's unsupported word.

Z also needs to prove that his recorded words about "a**holes and punks " who "always get away" do not denote spite.

No, none of that needs to be proved. The prosecution needs to prove that Martin was not the initiator and did not knock down and beat Zimmerman and that Zimmerman was not justified in attempting to defend himself. They need to prove that that there was never any serious threat to Zimmerman so that Zimmerman was unjustified in firing his weapon.

If the prosecution's theory of the crime is that Zimmerman acted out of spite, instead of self defense, then the prosecution has the burden of proof in that regard.

Darrell

[Selene]

Apropos of Darrell statements:

http://statutes.laws.com/florida/TitleXLVI/chapter782

Overview of Florida Second Degree Murder Laws

In Florida, state laws establish several types of homicide, the unlawful killing of a human being. The state prosecutes homicides as murders and manslaughters -- it may be helpful to know the multiple types of murders established by state law and understand the differences among them. In particular, second degree murder lacks the premeditation often required for the prosecution of a first degree murder.

To prove second degree murder, a prosecutor must show that the defendant acted according to a "depraved mind" without regard for human life. Florida state laws permit the prosecution of second degree murder when the killing lacked premeditation or planning, but the defendant acted with enmity toward the victim or the two had an ongoing interaction or relationship. Unlike first degree murder, second degree murder does not necessarily require proof of the defendant's intent to kill.

State law specifically requires a charge of second degree murder if the victim dies during the commission of one of the felony crimes specified by statute. These felonies include burglary, home-invasion robbery, kidnapping, sexual battery, and a number of other offenses. To establish second degree murder, the prosecutor must show that the victim died as a result of an act committed by a non-participant in the felony. If the defendant or another criminal participant in the felony caused the unlawful killing, state law requires a charge of first degree murder rather than second degree murder. Florida uses this law to deter and punish unintended deaths as a result of felonious activities.

Defenses to Second Degree Murder Charges

• Justifiable use of deadly force to defend against a felony committed against a person or property
• Excusable homicide committed by accident
• Spontaneous or negligent killing that might qualify as manslaughter instead of murder

Penalties and Sentences

A second degree murder prosecuted as a first degree felony may result in a sentence of imprisonment for a term lasting up to thirty years. Florida laws also permit the state to request a term of life imprisonment. If the defendant has a prior record of felony convictions or has committed other homicides, the state may request an increased sentence of imprisonment for life.

- See more at: http://statelaws.findlaw.com/florida-law/florida-second-degree-murder-laws.html#sthash.nO6vTh4e.dpuf

Overview of Florida Second Degree Murder Laws

In Florida, state laws establish several types of homicide, the unlawful killing of a human being. The state prosecutes homicides as murders and manslaughters -- it may be helpful to know the multiple types of murders established by state law and understand the differences among them. In particular, second degree murder lacks the premeditation often required for the prosecution of a first degree murder.

To prove second degree murder, a prosecutor must show that the defendant acted according to a "depraved mind" without regard for human life. Florida state laws permit the prosecution of second degree murder when the killing lacked premeditation or planning, but the defendant acted with enmity toward the victim or the two had an ongoing interaction or relationship. Unlike first degree murder, second degree murder does not necessarily require proof of the defendant's intent to kill.

State law specifically requires a charge of second degree murder if the victim dies during the commission of one of the felony crimes specified by statute. These felonies include burglary, home-invasion robbery, kidnapping, sexual battery, and a number of other offenses. To establish second degree murder, the prosecutor must show that the victim died as a result of an act committed by a non-participant in the felony. If the defendant or another criminal participant in the felony caused the unlawful killing, state law requires a charge of first degree murder rather than second degree murder. Florida uses this law to deter and punish unintended deaths as a result of felonious activities.

Defenses to Second Degree Murder Charges

• Justifiable use of deadly force to defend against a felony committed against a person or property
• Excusable homicide committed by accident
• Spontaneous or negligent killing that might qualify as manslaughter instead of murder

Penalties and Sentences

A second degree murder prosecuted as a first degree felony may result in a sentence of imprisonment for a term lasting up to thirty years. Florida laws also permit the state to request a term of life imprisonment. If the defendant has a prior record of felony convictions or has committed other homicides, the state may request an increased sentence of imprisonment for life.

- See more at: http://statelaws.findlaw.com/florida-law/florida-second-degree-murder-laws.html#sthash.nO6vTh4e.dpuf

FYI

[Peter]

Brant wrote:

Who was acting in self defense, Martin or Zimmerman? It seems obvious that at the end of the fight Zimmerman was, but before the fight or at its beginning? Was Martin defending himself after being attacked by Zimmerman? If so did he go too far, use too much force?

end quote

Very astute. It was Trayvon who was defending himself until the point that he was on top of George and then pounded his head into the ground. Yesterday at the trial a doctor said that none of Zimmerman’s wounds were life threatening medically speaking. And even one slam into the sidewalk could have caused all of George’s wounds that were to the back of the head. His nose was also broken.

These wounds may not have been life threatening medically but they were life threatening psychologically. Emergency ethics were in play. I am of two minds on the civil side of this case. I think Trayvon Martin’s parents would be justified in seeking damages from Zimmerman for overreacting but I wasn’t there so I cannot know what was in his mind except from the high pitched screams of a person who was in fear for their life. I think the evidence shows that was the voice of the survivor.

Peter

[caroljane]

I should make it clear that the police knew the description of the alleged vandal when they grabbed Andy. They did not ask the witness to identify him, (because they knew they would then have to let him go and be deprived of their arrest?)They just locked him up. Because they could.

And when you and Andy sued for false arrest/imprisonment, what happened?

I had no standing to sue, he was an adult. My only role was to persuade him to hire a lawyer, which he did not believe he needed because he hadn't done anything wrong. The police were directed to destroy his fingerprint records etc., but I bet they didn't.

[caroljane]

There is a funny sequel. As we came out of the courthouse, with Andy triumphantly handsome in his best suit, a girl sitting on the steps asked him, "Hey, did you just get out of jail?Did you meet my boyfriend there - his name"s X. I just noticed your shoelaces were untied."

We all looked down, me, Andy and Grace the lawyer, and sure enough they were.

[Selene]

I should make it clear that the police knew the description of the alleged vandal when they grabbed Andy. They did not ask the witness to identify him, (because they knew they would then have to let him go and be deprived of their arrest?)They just locked him up. Because they could.

And when you and Andy sued for false arrest/imprisonment, what happened?

I had no standing to sue, he was an adult. My only role was to persuade him to hire a lawyer, which he did not believe he needed because he hadn't done anything wrong. The police were directed to destroy his fingerprint records etc., but I bet they didn't.

I am not so sure that you had no standing for pain and suffering.

However, he certainly did. How long ago was this false arrest?

[Selene]

Let's see, if the election of the most incompetent President to ever stumble into the White House, President O'biwan was supposed to end racial division in our country...what happened?

Americans consider blacks more likely to be racist than whites and Hispanics in this country.

Thirty-seven percent (37%) of American Adults think most black Americans are racist, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey. Just 15% consider most white Americans racist, while 18% say the same of most Hispanic Americans. (To see survey question wording, click here.)

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/july_2013/more_americans_view_blacks_as_racist_than_whites_hispanics

[caroljane]

Zimmerman's Defence Team is very good. They have scored significantly on the prosecution's case, although they have not severely dented it. So far they have followed the classical murder defence playbook impeccably: first delay the trial as long as possible, to fade the memory of the victim and keep the suffering accused sympathetically before the public. Then do your stuff on the prosecution's evidence. Soon it will be their turn and I expect a major thrust will be to plant in the jury's mind a picture of a person who needed killing in general -- as someone on OO said, a"worthless scum" to whom it is good riddance. You can bet they have been scouring the bottom of every barrel to find facts or witnesses to paint Trayvon a violent person with a short fuse, a thief with gang connections, a racist white-hater and allround danger to society.I do not think they will try to show him an actual gang member as he was unarmed and apparently had no gang tattoos. But they will come up with plenty, I think.

[Ellen Stuttle]

The subject of gang crime in Chicago came up tangentially. I've been doing a bit of looking into statistics.

I want to park some links just to have these handy.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2013/06/11/chicago_murder_rate_rahm_emanuel_says_the_drop_in_chicago_s_homicide_rate.html

http://homicides.redeyechicago.com/

http://homicides.redeyechicago.com/ages/

Ellen

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Is it reasonable to assume Trayvon listened to rap music?

Does anybody pay attention to the lyrics?

The macho posturing and the gansta "I'll fuck you up if you mess with me" attitude?

I don't see anyone attributing that attitude to Trayvon, but I think it is reasonable speculation to assume he admired that core storyline and bought into it. His choice of clothing shows that. So do his reported conversations. In my view, he felt someone was harassing him and decided to teach that person a lesson. Fuck him up real good. But then it went south during the fight.

That seems like common sense of the really obvious kind to me. I think race hatred is being poured on this from others and race was only a minor element, mostly insignificant, in the actual event. I see Martin's macho chip on his shoulder and Zimmerman's paranoia-laden self-image as a comic book superhero much more than I do race for the reality. But in the perception, especially in the media, all I see is race.

Michael

[caroljane]

Is it reasonable to assume Trayvon listened to rap music?

Does anybody pay attention to the lyrics?

The macho posturing and the gansta "I'll fuck you up if you mess with me" attitude?

I don't see anyone attributing that attitude to Trayvon, but I think it is reasonable speculation to assume he admired that core storyline and bought into it. His choice of clothing shows that. So do his reported conversations. In my view, he felt someone was harassing him and decided to teach that person a lesson. Fuck him up real good. But then it went south during the fight.

That seems like common sense of the really obvious kind to me. I think race hatred is being poured on this from others and race was only a minor element, mostly insignificant, in the actual event. I see Martin's macho chip on his shoulder and Zimmerman's paranoia-laden self-image as a comic book superhero much more than I do race for the reality. But in the perception, especially in the media, all I see is race.

Michael

Don't collapse with shock Michael, but I agree with this. If the defence can prove Martin was as you say (and so many many 17-year-olds are - (were you?)- then this scenario is believable. The commonsense part is also, though, how big was the chip, how reckless and thoughtless was Martin, to take on a stranger in a strange place. It was not like proving himself within a peer group.

[caroljane]

Let's see, if the election of the most incompetent President to ever stumble into the White House, President O'biwan was supposed to end racial division in our country...

It never was supposed to and I cannot think of anyone who ever said so.The election demonstrated only that anti=black racism could no longer hinder black individuals from equal rights in any part of American life.

Or as you would put it, equality is achieved when an incompetent black has just as good a chance of being elected president as an incompetent white.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Don't collapse with shock Michael, but I agree with this.

Thud...

[caroljane]

lolololOL!

[caroljane]

I should make it clear that the police knew the description of the alleged vandal when they grabbed Andy. They did not ask the witness to identify him, (because they knew they would then have to let him go and be deprived of their arrest?)They just locked him up. Because they could.

And when you and Andy sued for false arrest/imprisonment, what happened?

I had no standing to sue, he was an adult. My only role was to persuade him to hire a lawyer, which he did not believe he needed because he hadn't done anything wrong. The police were directed to destroy his fingerprint records etc., but I bet they didn't.

I am not so sure that you had no standing for pain and suffering.

However, he certainly did. How long ago was this false arrest?

Too long. I did tell him that he had a good case to sue and likely would get a good settlement. But he was adamant, he just wanted to forget the whole mess. It was his life, and is.

His precious irreplaceable life.

[Selene]

...in a strange place.

Again Carol, you insist on saying that this was a "strange place."

It was not a strange place to Travon, since his father lived there and he frequented the development regularly, or, so we are led to believe.

A....

[Selene]

Too long. I did tell him that he had a good case to sue and likely would get a good settlement. But he was adamant, he just wanted to forget the whole mess. It was his life, and is.

His precious irreplaceable life.

Understood.