Conspiracies

[tjohnson]

I think the planes were electronically controlled to fly into the buildings.

OK, and do you think commercial airliners were rigged up to be controlled remotely prior to 9/11 and what happened to the pilots? Or do you think military planes were used to fly into the buildings? Were any planes actually hijacked?

[dougplumb]

general semantic: "OK, and do you think commercial airliners were rigged up to be controlled remotely prior to 9/11 and what happened to the pilots? Or do you think military planes were used to fly into the buildings? Were any planes actually hijacked?"

I don't know if the commercial planes were used to fly into the buildings or not. I do not know of any evidence that supports the planes hijackings. I think that was just "made for TV".

I guess that the pilots were unable to take control back from the computers on the plane and likely unable to communicate with the outside world. I don't know.

I think it may be possible to get one person to do a suicide mission. I think its far more difficult to get 4 to do it. To get 4 groups of people to simultaneously conduct a suicide mission sounds impossible to me. A planner of such a mission would have to count on all 16 or 20 people being willing to carry it out without chickening out. I can't really imagine that someone would plan and expect that. I think if there were multiple groups of suicidal hi-jackers, one or more group would chicken out.

But you are asking me to speculate and I do not normally do this.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Doug Plumb

[BaalChatzaf]

I think it may be possible to get one person to do a suicide mission. I think its far more difficult to get 4 to do it. To get 4 groups of people to simultaneously conduct a suicide mission sounds impossible to me. A planner of such a mission would have to count on all 16 or 20 people being willing to carry it out without chickening out. I can't really imagine that someone would plan and expect that. I think if there were multiple groups of suicidal hi-jackers, one or more group would chicken out.

These are not normal people. These are Muslims and Wahabis at that. The deeper one is into Islam, the closer to insanity.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Jonathan]

Tell me Johnathan, what is your objective take on 9/11 ? Why waste bandwidth just doing character attacks when you can contribute to the discussion. Lets hear your objective theory on 9/11.

My objective theory, Douhg, is that Dick Cheney used alien technology found at Roswell to reanimate the corpses of Marilyn Monroe, Lee Harvey Oswald, JFK and Jimmy Hoffa, and that he then trained them to fly alien space ships designed to look like commercial aircraft. The undead Marilyn and Lee Harvey flew their ships into the towers, and Jimmy flew his into the Pentagon, but Jack screwed up his mission, which was to hit the White House, because his brain was still missing and he got confused.

J

[Brant Gaede]

"Doug, generally we are Objectivists here and we consider things through that philosophical lens. "

lets hear your take on 9/11 through that lens.

Why? I did most of my 9/11 Internet stuff over eight years ago. I see no value in even discussing it with a rational person now, much less a troll and conspiracy fanatic. I also do not discuss things with people who claim men never went to the moon or walked on it.

--Brant

[Rich Engle]

It doesn't matter that much whether or not occultism is involved, because occultism is, obviously, crap. But, there is ample enough evidence out there to suggest that many elite types actually practice occultism, either thinking it is real, or just like having a little weird death club. Whatever.

Whatever the face of it, the point is to look for things and people that corrupt true capitalism, and personal freedoms. That includes, often, certain power mad elite types, who have always been around. Corruption is corruption, fascism is fascism, and I don't care if they want to run around doing creepy shit; eating dead scorpions, buying expensive jewel-encrusted skulls, whatever their poo-poo is.

The bottom line is when you start seeing heavy police state/fascist/socialist activity, and we have that.

We do know that, historically, time and time again, key elite families have benefitted from (and often instituted) the destruction of countries and cultures. This is an excellent way to take profits, power, and start over again.

[Chris Grieb]

Brant; Well stated.

[Rich Engle]

I had to ask someone for a memory jog, but here's a recommendation-- Google Joan Veon. Find out who she is, then look at her various presentations and lectures. She puts things together well.

[Rich Engle]

Here's a fun one.

This is a pamphlet issued by the F.B.I./Joint Terrorist Task Force to law enforcement officers. Notice some of the criteria included:

"'Defenders of the U.S. Constitution against Federal Government and the U.N. (Super Patriots)"

"Request Authority For Stop"

"Make numerous references to the U.S. Constitution."

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardt...l_terrorist.htm

[dougplumb]

Chris Grieb: "Brant; Well stated. "

I dissagree. I think that if someone is unwilling to contribute to the discussion at hand then they should post elsewhere.

As far as the moon landing goes, I don't believe anything I see on TV. Most people on this forum have shaped their beliefs around what they have seen on TV, but I am an objectivist and a rationalist.

I believe that the moon landings were faked and that cost about 5 million dollars and the remaining money was taken for payoff's etc. The reason for this is that this moon landing could not be allowed to fail. The American psyche and confidence in building the military industrial complex and its economic output depended on the moon landing being successful. Failure was not an option, therefore it had to be faked to guarentee success. Then there is the evidence...

No one has proven to me that the moon landings were real. Known liars have used the moon landings to their benefit.

The moon landings may be real, but I believe the old saying "once a liar, always a liar", and World War 2 was nothing but a great big lie, same as all the other wars. Wars serve the purpose of increasing the income tax so that the oligarchy can take a larger and larger piece of the economy.

Almost everything that this society depends on in terms of morality has ultimately been exposed as a lie. Ultimately society is based on morality and we have none. Our governments are drug dealers, thieves and often admitted Satanists or Luciferians. The robe a judge wears is known as "The Robe Of Saturn" and this goes way back to Egyptian mythology.

[Rich Engle]

This oughta start getting good now. I'm ready for a little action.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Rich Engle

[dougplumb]

I would really like to hear about some actual evidence that supports the official version of 9/11. It would be interesting to see, I want to see it. More than anything, I want to believe it. I wish I believed it, but I can't and I don't think that anyone should. I think people need to buckle up and look at the actual evidence.

[Rich Engle]

I think people need to buckle up and look at the actual evidence.

My, there's a thought. Rather than being dismissive, or talking about spaceships and JFK and such? I like doing that too, but isn't fiction so much fun, in that respect?

This isn't fun--this is a long effing way from being fun.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Rich Engle

[Judith]

Here's a fun one.

This is a pamphlet issued by the F.B.I./Joint Terrorist Task Force to law enforcement officers. Notice some of the criteria included:

"'Defenders of the U.S. Constitution against Federal Government and the U.N. (Super Patriots)"

"Request Authority For Stop"

"Make numerous references to the U.S. Constitution."

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardt...l_terrorist.htm

(*laugh!*)

What about "lone individuals"? I guess walking down the street by yourself is now a suspicious activity.

Judith

[Brant Gaede]

Chris Grieb: "Brant; Well stated. "

I dissagree. I think that if someone is unwilling to contribute to the discussion at hand then they should post elsewhere.

As far as the moon landing goes, I don't believe anything I see on TV. Most people on this forum have shaped their beliefs around what they have seen on TV, but I am an objectivist and a rationalist.

I believe that the moon landings were faked and that cost about 5 million dollars and the remaining money was taken for payoff's etc. The reason for this is that this moon landing could not be allowed to fail. The American psyche and confidence in building the military industrial complex and its economic output depended on the moon landing being successful. Failure was not an option, therefore it had to be faked to guarentee success. Then there is the evidence...

No one has proven to me that the moon landings were real. Known liars have used the moon landings to their benefit.

The moon landings may be real, but I believe the old saying "once a liar, always a liar", and World War 2 was nothing but a great big lie, same as all the other wars. Wars serve the purpose of increasing the income tax so that the oligarchy can take a larger and larger piece of the economy.

Almost everything that this society depends on in terms of morality has ultimately been exposed as a lie. Ultimately society is based on morality and we have none. Our governments are drug dealers, thieves and often admitted Satanists or Luciferians. The robe a judge wears is known as "The Robe Of Saturn" and this goes way back to Egyptian mythology.

Doug, you can't bring blatant irrationality to an Objectivist forum and not expect to be called out on it. It's so bad it's irrational even to call for a discussion on the particulars.

--Brant

[Alfonso Jones]

Here's a fun one.

This is a pamphlet issued by the F.B.I./Joint Terrorist Task Force to law enforcement officers. Notice some of the criteria included:

"'Defenders of the U.S. Constitution against Federal Government and the U.N. (Super Patriots)"

"Request Authority For Stop"

"Make numerous references to the U.S. Constitution."

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardt...l_terrorist.htm

Rich -

I'm trying to understand. Do you think this is a real pamphlet, "issued by the F.B.I./Joint Terrorist Task Force to law enforcement officers?"

I'm trying to understand the credibility given to a WWW site which lists what purports to be such, coupled with a dogged refusal to believe the Moon walk ever occurred, etc... Radical skepticism is applied to some things (at a level reminiscent of the old Alan Greenspan "undertaker" days), and instant credulity to others.

Bill P

[dougplumb]

Brant,

Is there anything on the TV news or that the government says that you do not believe ? Do you believe that man is responsible for "Global Warming" or "Climate Change" ?

[Reidy]

My rule is three years. If a story hasn't been proven well enough within that time to become mainstream news, it's bogus. The Nixon and Clinton coverups pass the test. The stories about Pearl Harbor, either the originals or the 9-11 knockoffs, fail. During the three-year trial period the burden of proof is on the ones who claim the story is true.

[Rich Engle]

That is an actual pamphlet. Talk about conspiracy theories...don't make any more of them than already exist! These were physically, for real, distributed. One of my closest friends (20 years) is a law enforcement officer in a big city...that's the first time I saw it--he was given one during one of those anti-terrorist training seminar thingies. Forget about the source site, that was just the fastest way I could get a scan of one. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. They are hard to come by, but, yes, that is the real dealio.

Proof enough for you? Or did I make that whole story up too, just to support some kind of paranoid psychological state I am cultivating, inside myself? How much enough is enough?

More importantly, I believe, is to look inside the strategy employed when they do that kind of monkey-business.

If you analyze that kind of think, it's pretty butt-simple how it works. The obvious, for one: what you do is associate what we used to consider basic rights with whacko paranoids. Meaning, to suggest that it is now unreasonable to bring up Constitutional rights during something like a traffic stop. That would include the other one I mentioned, which is to ask for credentials, probable cause, the authority by which the stop was made. To combine normal people who might question their rights, as stated by our government, our founding fathers, with those of (in this case) right wing extreme types (who, yes, do exist). That's an easy one: it's how you do it. Notice that the law enforcement people are, in effect, being told through this message that they have are to take the authority of the Federal Government, and the U.N. (!), over constitutional law. Yeah.

Ultimately, it is about changing over the mindset of people in terms of how they view enforcement officers. Public servants are paid for by us. To protect and Serve, in this case. But it is not like that anymore. The vision of the nice beat cop on the street helping a lost little girl has been replaced. The new model is more like one of Darth Vader's boys. There is a difference between a peace officer, and a shock trooper. Big contrast, if you compare visions of those two.

If you look at the border checkpoints, the random checkpoints, it is an intimidation close. They can't stand it if you ask the simple question "Am I being detained?" They either act clueless, confused about that retort, or you get an ass-beating. How do I know this for sure? For one, I've seen footage of it over and over. For two, it happened to me, and no, I won't talk about it. That isn't storytelling, that is raw fear.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Rich Engle

[Brant Gaede]

Brant,

Is there anything on the TV news or that the government says that you do not believe ? Do you believe that man is responsible for "Global Warming" or "Climate Change" ?

I don't believe in anthropogenic global warming or climate change. There has been no measurable warming since 1998. It's cooled off a little. No sunspot activity is most likely setting us up for global cooling. Climate is always changing regardless. CO2 is a weak, very weak, greenhouse gas. Water vapor is the primary greenhouse gas. The climate record indicates high temperatures tend to be followed by higher levels of CO2 than the other way around. A thousand years ago when there was green in Greenland and they grew wine grapes in England and temperatures were significantly higher than today, the world didn't fall off the cliff into the environmentalists' hell.

--Brant

[ginny]

Thank god for you, Brand. I was just checking to see what planet I'm on (coudda been kidnapped, ya know). I can't believe one lone voice of reason in a long thread such as this. But, yeah, all it takes is one. Love ya Brand (Not really, but the two martians at my side made me say it.)

Ginny

[ginny]

Sorry, didn't mean to omit Ba'al as a rare voice of sanity here. Love ya, too (Damn, those martians are obsessed, aren't they?)

Ginny

[Dragonfly]

Sorry, didn't mean to omit Ba'al as a rare voice of sanity here. Love ya, too (Damn, those martians are obsessed, aren't they?)

Hey, don't you love me?! :cry:

[ginny]

Dragon, I wasn't prepared to go public just yet. You promised it was our little secret.

Ginny

[Rich Engle]

Ah, so far nothing but silliness. Pretty much the same things the same folks usually complain about. It feels like nervous schoolgirl's twitter.

Maybe it's analysis paralysis. Not to stereotype...not all colored people steal TV sets.

But even in rudimentary sales training they warn you about people that keep asking for more information, over and over, nothing to happen.

rde

I'm just saying.