Conspiracies

[Jonathan]

Eyewitnesses for facial recognition are often wrong, but in this video a bunch of firemen are describing what they saw on that day. There are many witnesses that claim to have seen the squibs, they are also on many videos of the collapses - including the original CNN footage that was shown that morning which I saw as 9/11 was happening.

Hi Doug,

Can you provide any links to actual original footage? And by "original," I mean footage that has been verified by the original photographers/videographers to be at its original scale and in its original file format, and has not been reduced and/or compressed in order to conform to the typical web format. That or full-resolution still frames captured from the original footage and saved without lossy compression. The reason I ask is that I've seen conspiracy theorists in the past falsely claim that things like compression artifacts and line-resolution conversion Moiré patterns, which they see on low-quality youtube clips but which don't exist in the original high-res footage, are physical entities ("squibs" and "aircraft debris" and such) rather than data compression errors or other optical effects.

J

[dougplumb]

I would say that the best place for detailed video clip analysis is Jim Hoffmans site at http://911research.wtc7.net/index.html

I didn't get into deep video analysis because I saw it all live on CNN as it was happening.

I don't think there is any video footage that could be guarenteed undoctored. I think if the squibs were artifacts you would see more of them, from my bit of DSP processing I doubt an artifact would show up to look like a squib.

I don't pay attention to the squib stuff, the manner in which the buildings collapsed - straight down through path of greatest resistance tells me it had to be a controlled event. Nothing in the official version suggests the buildings were designed to collapse this way. I hope I never have to enter a building that is designed to collapse straight down and completely into its own footprint in the event of fire and/or minor structural damage.

[Rich Engle]

You can look at building 7, too.

People freak when you present facts like this. I'm used to it. Objectivists, commonly, fall into the thing where they want more and more and more evidence.

They like that, it's like crack for them.

To think otherwise would present a problem.

911 was an inside job.

[ginny]

Okay - I can't take any more of this. Is this thread overloading on paranoia, or is there something I don't see. Doug has struck me as strange, so I haven't given it too much thought. But Rich, I've never doubted your sanity. So, what gives. What's with this nonsense of 9/11 being an inside job. Please, to save MY sanity, explain in simple words that I can grasp (make 'em very simple). And please, don't quote some obscure source. Anyone can do that.

Ginny

[Rich Engle]

Assuming my sanity was your first mistake; it exists, but I simply keep it in a little cage and feed it fish food.

You have to do the research for yourself, if you want to feel completely validated.

Mostly, there are technical issues that prove it. Everytime I mention this I get crap, mainly because none of them have scoured long enough. It is easy to run into people who are going off half-jerked about it. They are right, they just express it poorly because of the above reasons, plus they are traumatized.

On the macro level, it was also said, and documents do support that. The idea of self-creating a tragedy of that level was the only option, and scumbags like these have no problem doing that, in their desperation.

The main reason people like me get shit (and I'm a very mild activist, being otherwise engaged; I just do what I can) is, methinks, because considering this possibility pretty much rips the carpet out from under a person, and that doesn't feel good. Call it denial: that's the first step in to acceptance, right?

But if you are persistent, you will find it for yourself. I no longer try to convince, I just know it. Most of us kind of folk here are "Missouri, show me" types. Well, you have to find it right there in front of you. Word of mouth isn't going to get traction. But if you see enough, study enough, you will triangulate things and there it will be. That, and a lot more.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Rich Engle

[dougplumb]

The big picture is that the banking collapses and 9/11 and everything in between are all connected.

The purpose of the big conspiracy is to destroy religion and with it The Natural Right of Man. Get Strauss' Natural Right & History and read only the first 14 pages.

The few private families that have controlled the money supply wish to concentrate their wealth to preserve the power and position of the English ruling class (that's not you and me) for all time. They have too many slaves.

The neoconservatives follow the philosophy of Leo Strauss, who in turn got his education from Carl Schmidt, who was Hitlers guide. The democrats are on board and following the same agenda, although the liberal agenda was originally to squeeze our rights out of us much more slowly.

In the end 80% - 95 % of the worlds population will be killed off, the remaining members will not have the right to happinesss or any kind of freedom. Those that survive will live under total socialism and society will be shaped to maximize their ability to serve a very small ruling class.

This has all been rehearsed in the last 100 years. Moussolini experimented with the public-private partnerships, Germany with the wars and propaganda and Stalin with mass starvation, the tattle tale society and prison camps. The banks that funded all of this are are the ones bringing the new system in to control the world.

Now, I could quote all kinds of sources from famous historians, think tank publications and from people who have stepped away from this, but as Jack Nicholson said "You can't handle the truth" - and that applies to most people here and this whole plan WILL HAPPEN HERE.

People that support the war making drug dealers and human traffickers of misery that form our government actually deserve it. Ultimately everything rests on morality and responsibility. Most people do not have this. They will just do what they are told, believing gov would never hurt them and that it can't happen here.

What is happening today, right now, tomorrow and next years dwarfs anything in the past thousands of years of history and most people deserve no more than abject slavery due to their cowardice.

I didn't quote anything from any obscure sources. The sources I quoted for 911 are the mainstream sources. Its just not on TV. They espouse the position of most engineers and scientists who have had the courage to look into the facts surrounding 9/11. Many people prefer to believe that our governments are good (even as they are setting up carbon taxes and giving your taxmoney away to CEO's) and prefer to believe the world is the way it is because of an omni-potent terrorist mastermind who is bent on world domination.

[ginny]

Thanks, Rich. So, you can't explain the nonsense. Whew. That's a relief. Thought for a moment I was losing it. Apparently, I'm not.

(As an aside, "You can't handle the truth" is a silly cop-out, not an answer.)

Ginny

[dougplumb]

I have spent thousands of dollars on DVD's and handed them out on street corners, I have set my own dreams aside to deal with this, knowing that my dreams are no longer possible. I know people that are in it, call themselves Luciferians and laugh about it. I know exactly what is going on from years of research as well.

I have ran for politics and said it exactly as it is in front of powerful people.

I have told Revenue Canada to stop calling me for tax money until our government stops dealing dope, laundering money for these dope dealers, stops the satanic child molestations (Ted Gunderson/Finders), spreading poisonous DU all over its war zones, the chem trails, poisoning the water with fluoride and poisoning our minds with a fascist education system that demands students believe the ridiculous.

Here I am once again, casting pearls before swine that for the most part deserve abject slavery.

I am NOT crazy, the people who think 9/11 was perpetrated by Usama are children. They require no evidence. They have no evidence. Its what TV wants them to believe. That IS crazy. Not wanting to inform others or try to stop this IS crazy.

If everyone could just face reality this would end by next week.

[dougplumb]

"(As an aside, "You can't handle the truth" is a silly cop-out, not an answer.)"

If I quotes sources, would you have the courage to look them up, or what you just write them off as "obscure" ?

[tjohnson]

Hi Doug, could you save me some time and explain your best theory about who contrived 9/11 and for what reason? Leaving aside all the evidence for now I am interested in what the motives for such a thing would be.

[dougplumb]

9/11 was created to build up fear and the police state at home. The police state will need to be fully in place before everyone has their private property taken so that they cannot fight back. As our real economy is stolen out from under us and shipped to China, people will start getting hungry and desperate and lose their homes. The carbon taxes cannot be implemented without first taking guns away.

In the words of David Miller, the Mayor of Toronto, "gun confiscation is necessary before social justice can be implemented".

The fear of terrorism is driving gun confiscation laws. All dictators, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot all have had to confiscate guns before depopulation operations begin. Vaccines are for depopulation. There are piles of doctors saying this on the web. Look for radioliberty.com (Dr. Stan Monteith) He interviews doctors about the vaccines and about the fluoridated water, which is equally diabolical. Also investigate the chem trails.

9/11 created public consent to invade Afghanistan, this invasion was necessary because the establishment needs the heroin trade to fund black ops. Just before we invaded, the Taliban had destroyed 90 % of the crops, after the invasion the crops have grown to record levels every year since.

Terrorism was why we supposedly invaded Iraq - but the real reason was that Hussein decided to start selling oil in Euro's rather than USD, threatening US hegemony and the ability of these people to implement the New World Order.

If you do not believe a New World Order - a socialist dictatorship is being implemented, look up quotes from David Rockefellers autobiography. I have a copy here and Rockefeller admits it but does not use the specific term New World Order. George Bush Sr and others have. Its now being admitted to in the mainstream press anyways.

The military needed to be beefed up and we needed to put bases around Russia, the war provided the excuse. Russia has kicked out the banking oligarchy and is the only nation that stands against the new world government.

That is just some of it.

In short the police state was motivated by terrorism but is needed before Sustainable Development is fully implemented. Look for Michael Shaw if you want to learn about Sustainable Development.

I doubt there is anyone here that believes the world is overpopulated or that man is causing global warming so I won't get into that. Ayn Rand warned us about that anyways.

[dougplumb]

BTW: Yugoslavia was invaded because they created their own national banks. It people would not be indebted to the families of the world who print the currency and rent it to our governments.

This whole thing is being put into place by the UN, The Federal reserve and European banking and royalty. They are all related. Look up Bloodlines Of The Illuminati.

Bush, Harper and everyone else "big" are all related to one another.

Also, Hitler was on our side, we had Smedley Butler over here set up to do the same thing to the USA that Hitler did to germany. Butler spilled the beans, Hitler went east instead of west.

Also, see Maj. Jordans Diaries to see how the cold war was created to build up the military.

[Selene]

Doug:

Additionally, if you could approach it without shouting/shrieking and

condemning anyone with a question as either a toady, an imbecile or

a running dog of the oppressive capitalist conspiracy to conquer the workers of the world,

would make it a better presentation for me at least.

Adam

[dougplumb]

I just cannot believe that there are people that still don't know 9/11 was an inside job.

I started being polite then I get insulted. I am not insulting anyone. The bottom line is this: either we all wake up or we all perish. I want to get as much verifiable info out there for people that are curious but don't know where to begin looking.

All of our wars have been about our banks printing the money for the small third world countries. The world is experiencing a financial system world takeover that has been happening slowly since the Fed was put into place here (and a few surrounding events) and for hundreds of years in European royalty and the banks.

John Perkins "Confessions Of An Economic Hit Man" explains the nature the UN and IMF.

This plan is near completion. We really don't have much time left. Think about the fact that our governments are now able to implement carbon taxes when most people know that man made global warming is a "total crock of shit" as someone important once said. Why are the cameras going up everywhere ?

Sustainable Development is the final aspect of their plans.

[Rich Engle]

I don't see any shrieking/yelling out of Doug's posts (at least these last several). He's just laying it down.

[Selene]

Doug:

"I just cannot believe that there are people that still don't know 9/11 was an inside job."

Posit a God fearing person saying to you that "I just cannot believe that people do not know that there is a God!" Saying it in that effete, how can you be so "stupid" and "ignorant" not to understand the TRUTH!

"I started being polite then I get insulted." Yes, that can happen and I am sure that I was one of the folks who participated in "insulting" you.

My feeling is that here, on this forum, a more even handed approach works infinitely better.

Adam

[dougplumb]

I'm sitting here listening to Gerald Celente (The International Forecaster) tell the whole truth on Rense radio. This guy is on TV all the time, but they never let him tell it like it is.

He has consistently been able to give good advise and tell people what is coming.

A couple of my friends and I were talking about this on Sat night. I brought up this forum, they both asked why I would waste time on people that didn't already know 9/11 was an inside job. The fact is that this is just a beginning in understanding what is happening, its a lot to digest going from ww2 to Sustainable Development today. Its a gut wrenching learning curve and there probably isn't enough time, if Celente and others are right.

[Selene]

Doug:

Good. My next question was going to be the generational inertia that this "systematic scheme [i mean that in the purest legal sense]" is unstoppable.

Correct?

Therefore, an individual who wishes to act should do what?

I am asking this question without any venom or satire.

Adam

[tjohnson]

I brought up this forum, they both asked why I would waste time on people that didn't already know 9/11 was an inside job.

Doug, you do not know it was an inside job, you believe it was. Presumably you are "wasting" your time here because you are trying to convince people here too.

[dougplumb]

Selene: "Therefore, an individual who wishes to act should do what?

I am asking this question without any venom or satire."

I think we should try and inform as many people as possible, through any means. Police and military and leaders need to know there is an aware public, otherwise they cannot do anything to stop this. Public opinion ultimately rules.

As far as 9/11 goes, not only does the physical evidence show it had to have been done "from the inside" meaning the inside of the buildings, but the number of lies that have been told by mainstream media and elected officials shows they are covering up. If they are covering up they must be involved.

The big media outlets ignored lots of things - such as showing the collapse of wtc7, existence of core columns in the buildings, the stock "put" options, etc. In the OKC bombing, they did not report bombs being found in the Murrah building.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

One thing always bothers me about these discussions.

It is never enough to present evidence (one way or another) and let people come to their own conclusions. One side always has to demonize the other.

I, for one, do not know and do not believe 9/11 was an inside hit job. And I know I exist. I resent the tone of "I cant believe there are people... yada yada yada."

That is nothing but a veiled insult and attempt at intimidation.

I also have some doubts about some of the things I have read regarding 9/11 and I resent people who ignore facts altogether simply because Popular Mechanics did a debunking report a while back, and do nothing but mock those who want to look at them.

Even more. I read (twice) Confessions of an Economic Hitman by Perkins. I read it twice because I saw many things up close in Brazil that align with Perkins's vision of the USA government (and allies) wishing to dominate third-world countries (after WWII) by getting them in debt while training the local secret police of dictators, then ultimately junking up that world with abandoned infrastructure projects that were never meant to be finished and leaving behind semi-enforced poverty of the majority.

Perkins is now a flower-child seeking peace in poverty and the jungle, so he is often dismissed as a kook. But what I read by him on international economic history is not kooky.

All this would make an interesting discussion in itself, but not in this climate.

I don't mind conspiracy theories, nor objections to them, but, please folks, let's leave preaching and intimidation for other venues. If the facts cannot convince people, screaming at them and insulting them on a philosophy forum will not either. Frankly, that shows total incompetence at effective communication and persuasion skills.

Michael

[Rich Engle]

That's why I said the only way to figure it out one way or another is to get in there and sift through it for yourself. It's a lot of work. So, you have to want to do that in the first place.

I agree that it almost always gets contentious, and, while I have some idea of why that happens (on both "sides," if their actually is such a thing), I not only disapprove of it because it makes me feel nasty inside just observing that crap, but, more importantly, it immediately dispenses with circumspection of the issue at hand. But NO..can't be having THAT happen, heavens!

Normally, as much (more, really), this is way less a problem around here than in the majority of other forums.

But I will say this... Yes, there are some people who are way off-base on this subject, hyper-paranoid types that somehow think this issue satisfies some unfufilled psychological "need." And yes, there are ones that rampantly let the fear flow all the way through their daily doings, to the point where they can't discern between what is to be feared, and who they can actually trust. I lived with a guy like that for awhile, and it was sad to watch, as informed as he was.

And, to the other side, I truly think that those reactions, from that place, are generally (cutting out whackos on both sides) the far more impolite, and petty. Very frustrating business when you are (supposedly) debating/exploring with someone who, in other settings, behaves themself and stays with the ideas. That is a real fact, and it is the most of it, like it or not (which I don't). I know I'm in for a good old down home backyard ass-whuppin' virtually everytime I find something in this area that disturbs me--and there are plenty of things, ones that have directly affected me. Those things, those are proof enough. How much more is required?

[Brant Gaede]

I'm not going to say what this thread is one step away from since it should be obvious. I'm just amazed it hasn't broached the surface yet.

The conspiracy folk throw everything into the pot hoping the true, might-be-true and interesting stuff will somehow validate the crap.

--Brant

[Jonathan]

I'm not opposed to people investigating various conspiracy theories and coming to different conclusion than I do. In fact, exploring alternative views can be fun and a great way to learn. But I do have a problem when people, who admit to not having any knowledge of the relevant sciences, state with certainty that things could or could not have happened in certain ways, basically because they've chosen to believe one set of "experts" rather than another, or they've decided that something which merely seems counterintuitive to their novice eyes couldn't possibly happen in the way that it did.

I have quite a lot of knowledge of photographic imagery, yet I've had conspiracy nutters, who have zero knowledge of photography, inform me that specific examples of photographic evidence -- be it from 9/11, the JFK assassination, the moon landings, etc. -- contain things that they don't, or that they don't contain things that they should. I have yet to see a case where the photographic evidence supports the conclusions that the nutters have come to based on trusting "experts" who either don't have a clue what they're talking about, or, worse, are intentionally lying in order to make money off of conspiracy nutters.

The nutters always seem to claim that those who disagree with them haven't studied the issues as deeply as they have, but that's usually the opposite of reality. The nutters may have read piles and piles about conspiracy theories, but they never seem to take the time to actually study the sciences involved. So it basically comes down to uninformed people being fooled by other uninformed (or dishonest) people.

I see it as being a lot like talking to religious people who say that you can't comment on the existence of God if you haven't studied the bible and other similar sources as deeply as they have. They don't seem to recognize that such sources aren't real information, and that studying more and more of it doesn't get one any closer to proving the existence of God.

J

[dougplumb]

There is not a single point mentioned in that Popular Mechanics coverage of 9/11 that is actually true. All ten points are lies or misdirection. Name any one of their points and I will go through it.

Some of us "nutters" believe that it can happen here. The only nutters I know are people that believe something that has absolutely no evidence anywhere to back it up. They believe it because it was on TV.

As far as photographic evidence goes, I don't depend on it much on 9/11 except to see the manner and speed for which the buildings went down. These show controlled demolitions not random accidents. All the lies and coverups of the 9/11 commission, Popular Mechanics and various TV shows about it show that something is being covered up.