Conspiracies

[Judith]

Okay, over the months and years, more than one contributor here has mentioned or implied or hinted to the effect that purported world elite conspiracies such as the Illuminati, Bilderbergers, CFR, etc. are more than paranoid fantasies, but every link I've ever seen and every search I've ever done on the internet has led to nothing but rabid paranoid Christian Armageddon-ridden type exorcism and demon-type stuff talking about massive famiy bloodlines where the kids undergo satanic rituals from birth, etc. Folks here seem to be fairly bright, so where's the research and links that support this conspiracy stuff?

Judith

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Judith,

You can get some scans and scans of photocopies of actual documentation, affidavits of high-ranking military personnel, etc. here:

Deep Black Lies

David Guyatt is an investigative journalist who keeps a low profile. But I keep seeing evidence of the fact that he is taken seriously in high places. For instance, he was retained as an expert in international banking for a class action lawsuit against the Vatican Bank for unaccounted WWII property confiscation by the former Ustasha regime in Croatia, which is still pending. See here:

Vatican Bank Claims (Easton & Levy), reprinted by Washington Post/Newsweek here.

I haven't read his stuff for a few years now, but there is a forum where he posts a lot.

Deep Politics Forum

Although the way the loonies run with conspiracy stuff appears like hilarity and boneheadedness to any reasonable-minded person, Guyatt is in a different league. His research is solid enough to indicate that there is something going on. I have not read the forum linked above, so I do not know the quality of the information presented. I assume, based on Guyatt's former work, that there will be solid facts amid ominous insinuations.

As an aside, Guyatt's report on Project Hammer ignited a whole slew of HYIP scams overseas. (They already existed, but Project Hammer put them on steroids.) I saw some of this stuff up close and it is pretty funny, if you don't mind laughing at deluded people. One after another and they haven't stopped even today. I believe these kinds of things are the reason Guyatt keeps a low profile. There are many imbalanced people who inhabit the worlds he reports on. Most are harmless, but some are very, very nasty.

I have not seen wrong information provided by Guyatt, but I do not dismiss the possibility. Also, I find some of his conclusions a bit forced. But still, I see a there there with his stuff that needs serious consideration and not just dismissal.

I am of a mind that rich and powerful folks will try to set up backstage stuff to make sure they stay rich and powerful. As they are fallible human beings and there is a big cruel world out there, these attempts are not nearly as effective as the loonies make them out to be. But some things can be attributed to them and the existence of organizations like the Bilderberg group are too well documented to say it doesn't exist at all.

Unraveling what is what amid all the shouting is too much for me. That's why I usually don't write about this. I don't dismiss out of hand many of the popular conspiracies (as is normal in our subculture), but I don't embrace them wholeheartedly, either. There are too many loonies on the conspiracy side and usually too little objectivity on the dismissal side. I certainly don't embrace the more boneheaded theories (like the CIA staged the first moon landing to fool the world, etc.).

I use the epistemological process of identify, then judge. I try to honestly let the facts fall where they may. Sometimes facts fall in weird places. Sometimes they debunk the loonies. Sometimes they are not conclusive, one way or the other.

The epistemological process you will find on both sides of these issues is usually the contrary and resembles crusading, i.e., judge, then try to dig up as many facts as you can to justify the judgment, including attributing wrong context to some of the facts and ignoring other facts. Then when that fails, attack the people on other side with everything you've got.

It is very tiring to discuss or analyze anything in that environment.

Michael

[Reidy]

On the other hand, if you like wakkadoodle stuff, keep an eye on galtgulch's contributions and follow his links.

[Chris Grieb]

I hope there is never a shortage of tin foil so Gulch will never run out his hats.

[BaalChatzaf]

Okay, over the months and years, more than one contributor here has mentioned or implied or hinted to the effect that purported world elite conspiracies such as the Illuminati, Bilderbergers, CFR, etc. are more than paranoid fantasies, but every link I've ever seen and every search I've ever done on the internet has led to nothing but rabid paranoid Christian Armageddon-ridden type exorcism and demon-type stuff talking about massive famiy bloodlines where the kids undergo satanic rituals from birth, etc. Folks here seem to be fairly bright, so where's the research and links that support this conspiracy stuff?

Judith

Little or none.

Conspiracy theories are as old as the human race.

Conspiracy memes are not only unfactual, they are downright harmful. Consider, for example, -The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion-.

Conspiracy theories about Secret Groups Running Everything are basically bullshit.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

See what I mean?

Michael

[algernonsidney]

Okay, over the months and years, more than one contributor here has mentioned or implied or hinted to the effect that purported world elite conspiracies such as the Illuminati, Bilderbergers, CFR, etc. are more than paranoid fantasies, but every link I've ever seen and every search I've ever done on the internet has led to nothing but rabid paranoid Christian Armageddon-ridden type exorcism and demon-type stuff talking about massive famiy bloodlines where the kids undergo satanic rituals from birth, etc. Folks here seem to be fairly bright, so where's the research and links that support this conspiracy stuff?

That's somewhat of an over simplification. These people are more diverse than this.

There are a few common characteristics. They don't trust legacy media outlets--CNN, _Time_, _Newsweek_, the local newspaper, network news, etc. They often don't trust other established "authorities," such as doctors, scientists, economists, "experts," bureaucrats, and lawyers. They do retreat into their own world of beliefs, although this is a matter of degree depending on the person. I do think that most of these people do care sincerely and deeply about the country and are very hurt and angry about what is going on. I actually think that a lot of people who call themselves Objectivists do these same things. Unfortunately, it seems like people on boards like this actually do trust the legacy media and "established authorities" more than they used to do.

As I have gotten older and more cynical, I have seen how such "experts" have already rewritten the history of things that I have seen in my own life. Someone on a news program might say, for example, that "Clinton got the youth vote in 1992." Well, every single chart I remember reading back then said that Clinton actually did best among voters over 60. I naturally wonder if these people are lying or if their memories are simply reconstructing things that they want to believe.

The Internet is a giant rumor mill. I learned this back when I was a huge fan of the TV show _Roswell_. I frequently went to _Roswell_ discussion forums, and rumors were everywhere. Usually these rumors would be about things that were going to happen in future episodes, and they would usually be wrong. Other rumors would be about the lives of cast members: cast member is dating cast member or cast member doesn't like other cast member. The "conspiracy theories" were things like "she is sleeping with this producer so she can get more time on camera."

What I learned from all this is to ask one simple question: "What is your source?" When dealing with conspiracy theorists, you should always ask this question. Some of these theorists do cite many sources. Also, check to see that they are reading a diverse group of sources. The web actually makes this a lot easier.

What characterizes all "conspiracy theories" is that there are villains who have done something bad, and these villains have not been properly "punished" or "exposed" for what they have done. Often such theorists want to "fix" the system, so that an "injustice" doesn't happen again. The anti-smoking lobby, for example, claims that "big tobacco" knew that cigarettes were dangerous in the 1960's or earlier and has continuously lied about this. Sports fans will claim that there is a conspiracy keeping major college football from having a playoff. I know fans of the Steelers who claim that one Steeler player was "paid off" so that he would throw the Super Bowl against Dallas.

One common claim of people who promote conspiracy theories is that "this has happened before." Well, that is true. It's not evidence, however. It is true that there was evidence that the Chicago White Sox threw the World Series in 1919. But what does this have to do with any game in any sport taking place today?

Ultimately it is always the job of the theorist to prove his theories, just as it is the job of the Christian to prove the existence of god. If someone believes that "9-11 was an inside job," it is their job to prove that. At the same time, it also the job of the people who believe that bin Laden was responsible for the WTC to prove that as well. If you don't believe either theory, you do not have to prove anything.

[syrakusos]

The epistemological process you will find on both sides of these issues is usually the contrary and resembles crusading, i.e., judge, then try to dig up as many facts as you can to justify the judgment, including attributing wrong context to some of the facts and ignoring other facts. Then when that fails, attack the people on other side with everything you've got.

It is very tiring to discuss or analyze anything in that environment.

Michael

Of course, by their nature conspiracies are secretive, so that presents a problem. The fact remains that a conspiracy of senators and other powerful people kept their secret until they assassinated Gaius Julius Caesar on the steps of the senate.

Late last year, I wrote an article for a history magazine about medieval Champagne (whence the "troy" ounce for precious metals). Make of it what you will, but the counts of Champagne were tied to the Papacy, the Crusades, the Templars, and the Cistercians all at the same time as "Rashi" Rabbi Shlomo Itzak established a center of Jewish scholarship there. As far as I can tell, birds of a feather flock together -- and where's the surprise in that.

On the other hand, I have a graduate class in criminology and in my research, I came upon an older book, The Honest Politiican's Guide to Crime Control by Norval Morris and Gordon Hawkins, U. Chi Press, 1970. The reason I checked it out from the library was to read Chapter 8: Organized Crime and God. They contend that evidence for the existence of the Mafia is on par with evidence for the existence of God. Not that criminals don't associate, but that there is no over-arching council of criminal masterminds controlling all illegal activities.

I read The Illuminatus Trilogy and it summed up everything nicely for me. I'm a believer... and we have new evidence: Why do you think they named that space shuttle Atlantis? ("It remains a seminal work of conspiracy fiction, predating Foucault's Pendulum and The Da Vinci Code by decades." -- Wikipedia here.)

Another of my favorites is The Occult Technology of Power (readable here).

I add also, Michael Crichton's State of Fear: the ruling class keeps people whipped into a frenzy of fear in order to gain more political power. The same argument came from None Dare Call it Conspiracy by Gary Allen: governments love leftwing protestors who demand more government -- this is why nominal "anti-establishment" groups like the G-8 Protestors flourish. The G8 global capitalists -- "Davos Men" -- win both ways.

All of that being as it may, I believe that if powerful conspiracies really ran the world, it would be a saner place.

Mike M.

Michael E. Marotta

"On board with Hagbard Celine"

Edited February 19, 2009 by Michael E. Marotta

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Michael,

You can't fool me. When you signed "Mike M." right above your own name, you just signaled something to someone who is going to do something dastardly.

I've got your number, buster. And I'm going to get to the bottom of it!

Hagbard Celine indeed! You just wait until the Ides of friggen March come goosestepping in!

Mikchael

[BaalChatzaf]

Michael,

You can't fool me. When you signed "Mike M." right above your own name, you just signaled something to someone who is going to do something dastardly.

I've got your number, buster. And I'm going to get to the bottom of it!

Hagbard Celine indeed! You just wait until the Ides of friggen March come goosestepping in!

Mikchael

That is what he wants you to think.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

Chris B.

This statement is not mutually exclusive Chris. Clinton may have gotten the youth vote and done best among 60+ voters, or you might have heard a lot about the youth vote because it was the first Rock the Vote effort and, "...only in 1992 did youth voting tick upward from its continuing downward descent (but so did all other age groups that year)." This is why you may remember little clips in your mind about Clinton and the youth vote.

"...'Clinton got the youth vote in 1992.' Well, every single chart I remember reading back then said that Clinton actually did best among voters over 60."

1992 189,044,500 (Voter age population VAP*) 133,821,178 (Total actually registered) 104,,405, 105 actually voted.

http://www.ndol.org/upload_graphics/AbN2_P...000_395x350.jpg

10,400,000 under 25 voted in 1992, a 49% turn out - 20,000,000 between 18-29, a 52% turnout

Judith:

In terms of a vast global conspiracy that meets and makes global decisions, I see little, to approaching zero, valid data to support a minimal debate.

Have there been lower order conspiracies which operated in certain power zones for specific periods of time. absolutely.

I am a 75% proponent of C.Wright Mills' analysis in The Power Elite, circa 1956.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_elite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._Wright_Mills

However, I do believe in short term conspiracies, ie.s JFK's assassination, which I worked on and I personally am convinced that there was more than one shooter. Beyond that certainty in my mind, the source of the "alleged conspiracy" is hotly debatable.

Interesting post and question though. Thanks.

Adam

*Total VAP refers to the total Voting Age Population as reported by the Bureau of Census in their Current Population Reports, Series P-25. It is important to note that the VAP includes all persons over the age of 18 -- including a significant number of persons who are ineligible to vote in federal elections including legal and illegal aliens, persons under sentence of a felony conviction and those individuals who have been declared non compos mentis by a court of law. The VAP is therefore considerably larger than the pool of potential voters.

[dougplumb]

On Sept 11, the following events occured:

Two planes, one each crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center. These crashes occured between 8:30 and 9:30 AM on the 11th.

Both towers collapsed straight down through the path of greatest resistance in little more time than it would take an object to fall from the roof of either building to the ground. Multiple controlled demolition type explosions were seen by many witnesses. Immediately communist news began to blame Usama bin Laden. To this day the FBI has not listed bin Laden as a suspect in 9/11 - they have no evidence.

The official version of the collapses was that the buildings collapsed from fire and structural damage. According the the NIST report, structural damage was small - its less than 30 % of any floor - from the diagrams in the NIST report . Fire has never caused the collapse of "skscraper" type buildings in history.( In 1975 one of the wtc buildings burned for hours on the 11th floor in a fire that was easily seen to be hotter and to burn longer than the fires in the wtc buildings on Sept 11 2001. The building remained standing and was said to have had had absolutely no structural damage in the NY times. )

Airplane fuel fires do not melt structural steel, even the NIST report says all fires were no hotter than 500 deg C, and mostly under 250 deg C. This is in the range of a fuel fire at standard temperature and pressure, which burns cooler than propane which never seems to melt propane stoves. The official version of this fire had molten metal flowing like water.

The initial flight manifest of the two airplanes did not have any of the plastic knife wielding terrorists listed that supposedly took the planes over from military trained pilots and flew them through heavily defended airspace for 1/2 hour or more after the planes were known to have been hijacked. (the list was later released with their names added to it) Confusion that allowed the attacks to happen was due to a military training exercise that was ocurring at the exact same time and involving the exact same type of attack - exactly like at the OKC bombing and exactly like the London 7/7 bombing. Always a co-incident identical exercise going on, yet no one is ever busted from the inside.

At about 10:30 the Pentagon was attacked. The plane was said to have flown a flight path that has since been said to be impossible by many pilots, see Pilots for 9/11 truth. There were no bodies found in the wreckage. The grass on the Pentagon was dug up and replaced immediately after the incident. The hole created in the Pentagon does not have holes or damage where the engines should have been on the airplane.

At 5 PM later that day, wtc7 collapsed in a manner that was identical to a perfectly executed conventional controlled demolition in every manner possible. It was a textbook example of a controlled demolition.

Its the most cockame story I have ever heard in my life. Its an insult and the purpose of that insult was to humiliate people and to scare them into submission.

Earlier that year in July, the Taliban was reported to have burned 90 % of the opium crops, three weeks after Sept 11 the US and others invaded Afghanistan in an invasion that would have taken months to plan and prepare. Now the Afghan heroin output is up over 700 billion dollars per year, consistently breaking records from one year to the next.

Whey did the communist news networks immediately blame Usama bin Laden ? Why not some intelligence agency of a foreign power ?

The American government has deemed it necessary to remove rights under the Patriot Act. What is now known as engineered anthrax was used to scare congress into signing the Patriot Act in a time interval between releasing the act to signing it so short that a computer couldn't have read this document. The Patriot act was written long before the attacks occured.

Since then the USA has experienced greater and greater security measures to bring the USA into full fascism. This includes putting cameras in the bathrooms of publoic schools so that the authorities can watch them pee and make sure they are not collaborating with the most deadly and powerful terrorist mastermind known in history.

If human beings are capable of objective thought, how is it that some people can still believe this nonsense ?

I do not believe for a minute that human beings are capable of truly objective reasoning. Ayn Rands books are great but the objectivist philosophy is largely a fantasy.

Objectivism and fascism are totally incompatible, yet we have people on this objectivist website that fully agree with the official version of 9/11, yet present themselves as objectivists.

Didn't Rand warn us about governments and corporations uniting ? Isn't that what the USA is really all about ? Who here believes in man made global warming and that man is destroying the planet ? That's the second most cockame thing I have ever heard.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Doug Plumb

[Alfonso Jones]

On Sept 11, the following events occured:

Two planes, one each crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center. These crashes occured between 8:30 and 9:30 AM on the 11th.

Both towers collapsed straight down through the path of greatest resistance in little more time than it would take an object to fall from the roof of either building to the ground. Immediately corporate news began to blame Usama bin Laden. To this day the FBI has not listed bin Laden as a suspect in 9/11 - they have no evidence.

The official version of the collapses was that the buildings collapsed from fire and structural damage. According the the NIST report, structural damage was small - its less than 30 % of any floor - from the diagrams in the NIST report . Fire has never caused the collapse of "skscraper" type buildings in history. In 1975 one of the wtc buildings burned for hours on the 11th floor in a fire that was easily seen to be hotter and to burn longer than the fires in the wtc buildings on Sept 11 2001. The building remained standing had had absolutely no structural damage.

Airplane fuel fires do not melt structural steel, even the NIST report says all fires were no hotter than 500 deg C, and mostly under 250 deg C. This is in the range of a fuel fire at standard temperature and pressure, which burns cooler than propane which never seems to melt propane stoves. The official version of this fire had molten metal flowing like water.

The initial flight manifest of the two airplanes did not have any of the plastic knife wielding terrorists listed that supposedly took the planes over from military trained pilots and flew them through heavily defended airspace for 1/2 hour or more after the planes were known to have been hijacked. (the list was later released with their names on it) Confusion that allowed the attacks to happen was due to a military training exercise that was ocurring at the exact same time and involving the exact same type of attack - exactly like at the OKC bombing and exactly like the London 7/7 bombing. Always a co-incident identical exercise going on, yet no one is ever busted from the inside.

At about 10:30 the Pentagon was attacked. The plane was said to have flown a flight path that has since been said to be impossible by many pilots, see Pilots for 9/11 truth. There were no bodies found in the wreckage. The grass on the Pentagon was dug up and replaced immediately after the incident. The hole created in the Pentagon does not have holes or damage where the engines should have been on the airplane.

At 5 PM later that day, wtc7 collapsed in a manner that was identical to a perfectly executed conventional controlled demolition in every manner possible.

Its the most cockame story I have ever heard in my life. Its an insult and the purpose of that insult was to humiliate people and to scare them into submission.

Earlier that year in July, the Taliban was reported to have burned 90 % of the opium crops, three weeks after Sept 11 the US and others invaded Afghanistan in an invasion that would have taken months to plan. Now the Afghan heroin output is up over 700 billion dollars per year, consistently breaking records from one year to the next.

Whey did the communist news networks immediately blame Usama bin Laden ? Why not some intelligence agency of a foreign power ?

The American government has deemed it necessary to remove rights under the Patriot Act, what is now known as engineered anthrax was used to scare congress into signing the Patriot Act in a time interval between releasing the act to signing it so short that a computer couldn't have read this document. The Patriot act was written long before the attacks occured.

Since then the USA has experienced greater and greater security measures to bring the USA into full fascism.

If human beings are capable of objective thought, how is it that some people can still believe this nonsense ?

I do not believe for a minute that human beings are capable of truly objective reasoning. Ayn Rands books are great but the objectivist philosophy is largely a fantasy.

Doug -

Is this the best example of a conspiracy of which you are aware, and is this some of what you view as the best evidence for it?

I'm tempted to paste in the pararaph by Judith which began this thread.

Bill P

[dougplumb]

I would expect that most people already know all the facts I have listed. If not there are plenty of web sources.

I suggest:

ae911truth.org

9/11 Timeline

The official version of events - various You-Tube, etc videos of the buildings collapsing straight down.

9/11 Mysteries is a good movie, so is Loose Change 3 - which is an exhaustive documentary on the topic.

Everyone has seen the videos of the buildings collapsing straight down.

Ever hear of Richard Cook ? He is the guy that exposed the rings on the Challenger disaster as causing the accidents. Read his stuff on globalresearch.ca regarding banking and the ruling elites. See also Dr. Ellen Brown's Web Of Deceipt.

[dougplumb]

Bill P. "Is this the best example of a conspiracy of which you are aware, and is this some of what you view as the best evidence for it?"

Yes, but all you need to look at is the videos. The buildings collapsing straight down through their own center axis is the path of greatest resistance. Its impossible according to the second law of thermodynamics. I'm no thermo expert, but this is the words of Dr. Stephen Jones, the guy the government thought best qualified to look into this whole cold fusion thing after the initial claims and report back to gov.

I knew I was watching a CD when I saw the buildings go down that morning on TV.

Check out http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/ for an long list of very accomplished people who agree with me.

[dougplumb]

I can post the Finders, an FBI report by Ted Gunderson and others that statistically prove that child abductions for satanic rituals occur right before environmental dates such as summer / winter equinox, solistice, etc. He has anthropogical evidence to prove it. Gunderson had 800 agents working under him until he quit when he learned that gov was bringing in the drugs. Noam Chomsky, the leader of the controlled left has written that fuel tanks full of coke have landed in Florida on A6's. The fact that gov brings in most of the drugs has been widely reported.

I have had an actual Luciferian admit that some of her co-workers in a law firm "were likely into it"- "it" being satanic child molestation rituals. She thought it was cute because these people are high on the power that gov gives to them.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Doug Plumb

[Selene]

Doug:

May I see copies of their sworn affidavits please.

"Multiple controlled demolition type explosions were seen by many witnesses."

Adam

[dougplumb]

You can see the video testimony of firemen saying that !

See Terrorstorm by Alex Jones.

[Selene]

Doug:

My family is NYFD - my father was an original organizer of the Fire Department Union. I have personally, as did my father, who was also an Arson Investigator for 10 years of his 35 years of service, spoke with many firefighters and officers who fought the WTC attack by Muslim theocratic statists.

Will you stipulate to the fact that the firefighters in the video could be mistaken? Yes or no.

Adam

[dougplumb]

Sure they could be mistaken, but I also have seen the squibs on video.

There is a pattern here that cannot be denied. The London 7/7 bombings had an exercise going at THE SAME TIME with bombs going off at the exact same places and times !!!

They still haven't identified the driver with Timothy McVeigh in the OKC bombings.

What evidence do you have to support the Muslim terrorist did it hypothesis ? I have never seen any evidence of this. I have seen rumours, heresay and lies. There is nothing at all that supports the government story.

Did you watch Terrorstorm ? Like Jones or not, look at his evidence objectively.

[dougplumb]

The evidence for 9/11 being an inside job is endless. Gov is the only one that had means, motive and opportunity. The buildings were shut down two weeks prior to the attacks. All security was shut down. They took the bomb sniffing dogs out of the building a week before it happened.

Buildings do not callapse straight down through the path of greatest resistance due to fires. It especially can't happen 3 times in one day. Have you seen the wtc7 collapse ?

Have you watched Terrorstorm ? How about the ae911truth.org slide presentation ?

Rumsfeld admitted that Fl 93 was shot down ON VIDEO !!!! (it slipped out)

Lets hear your objective reasoning as to why you think Muslim terrorists did it, if they did it, how ? Show me a single piece of evidence.

[Selene]

Doug:

The admission by Bin Laden and several other high value Al-Qaeda operatives is not enough to begin a prima facie case?

Adam

[dougplumb]

You don't have a confession by bin Laden. That confession tape showing bin Laden was not bin laden. Look at the nose and forehead and the spacing of the eyes.

see http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osamatape.html

There is no audio so there is no way of knowing what was said, unless you believe the mouth interpreters of the Pentagon, people who resort to torture to obtain evidence of confession.

The official version goes like this: The Muslims who hate freedom attacked a symbol of "freedom" in America (the marriage of corporations and gov), they were in a bar getting lap dances and getting drunk the night before and bought two way tickets for a one way airplane ride. One of them even received a pay cheque from the CIA. This is public information.

Take a look at the FBI most wanted list. bin Laden is not even listed as wanted for 9/11, he is wanted for USS Cole bombing. In which case security allowed someone to park a vehicle right beside one of their war ships.

There is piles of evidence of all these conspiracies. I'll really bake your noodle when we get into global warming and the satanic child sacrifices done in the name of Gia worship.

Check out Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler sometime. He was the most decorated marine of ww1. He had two congressional medals of honor. He explains what war is all about in a short <10 page essay.

This stuff is really hard to accept, but for a true objective thinker, conclusions are clear. People ask "what can you do about it?" Do what I am doing right now. This info seeps into the consciousness of the armies and "police" (who are technically soldiers)

[Selene]

Doug:

I know that you are passionate about your beliefs.

Define torture?

Adam

[dougplumb]

Torture is the coersion of a confession through physical pain I believe. Pain compliance is what they are calling torture now. They redefine it all the time.

The pictures we have seen out of Abu Garib would certainly be torture.

They don't even have any evidence against these guys in there - they are being held for years against their will and away from their families. Taxpayers fund the prison, yet we don't even know its reason for existence. Who in there has done anything wrong ?