Frank's Niece!

[Cathy]

Cathy, Rand made many false analogies in her passion to express her ideas. Comparing human beings to insects was one of her worst, in my opinion,

Daunce, did she say that? Did she have more than one affair? ~Cathy~

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Thank you very much...it helped a lot! can I use this to defend her? ~Cathy~

Cathy,

Sure, but the kind of person you want to defend Rand against is not interested in facts. He is interested in the victimization narrative that he adopted--the one that makes him feel good, that makes him feel morally superior to you.

If you want to defend Rand, always make it clear that you realize the person you talking to will not change his mind, but you are presenting the material for the reader. That way the reader can get another view and decide for himself.

In my experience, this drives people like you are arguing against apeshit. They are innately control freaks and can't stand the idea that the reader will control his own narrative, not them through their manipulations. They really do go nuts and once you realize this, you can have some great fun.

As to the rational part, I remember a comment on a forum somewhere (I no longer remember where) by a Marxist that applies to this kind of person. He was talking about Jehovah's Witnesses. He said you can argue with them all day, present fact after fact and win the argument. But you won't change their mind.

In my experience this is also true.

Michael

[caroljane]

No, no, not that I know of. I was only commenting on her image of society as just producers and leeches. |She always had young men admirers and did say at one point, I think in the pre Atlas years, that she was considering a divorce. Her life has been examined pretty heavily and there is absolutely no evidence that she ever had an extramarital lover except nb.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Even her disabled husband's illness "sickened" her (which she used as an excuse for her affairs.

Cathy,

This is bullshit. Just ignore it. A person who says that is beyond interest in the facts.

Michael

[Cathy]

Thank you very much...it helped a lot! can I use this to defend her? ~Cathy~

Cathy,

Sure, but the kind of person you want to defend Rand against is not interested in facts. He is interested in the victimization narrative that he adopted--the one that makes him feel good, that makes him feel morally superior to you.

If you want to defend Rand, always make it clear that you realize the person you talking to will not change his mind, but you are presenting the material for the reader. That way the reader can get another view and decide for himself.

In my experience, this drives people like you are arguing against apeshit. They are innately control freaks and can't stand the idea that the reader will control his own narrative, not them through their manipulations. They really do go nuts and once you realize this, you can have some great fun.

As to the rational part, I remember a comment on a forum somewhere (I no longer remember where) by a Marxist that applies to this kind of person. He was talking about Jehovah's Witnesses. He said you can argue with them all day, present fact after fact and win the argument. But you won't change their mind.

In my experience this is also true.

Michael

Micheal, I know what you mean. Conny and I do not agree politically. I can give her facts, but she will still defend Obama and blame the white guy (Bush). I wont change her mind...but then again, she wont change mine either I just don't like hearing bad things about my aunt and uncle, it bothers me to think she said that about uncle Frank being disabled and that's why she had the affair. He was innocent and not disabled...if she said that. I am trying to learn about Ayn Rand, but I don't think I can be partial. Its one thing not agreeing with her philosophy (I can handle that) its another thing when they say terrible things about them. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Even her disabled husband's illness "sickened" her (which she used as an excuse for her affairs.

Cathy,

This is bullshit. Just ignore it. A person who says that is beyond interest in the facts.

Michael

I know, I cant stand reading things like that...people can be so mean.

[Brant Gaede]

It wasn't land thief except maybe purely morally, for the Native Americans held no title in lands and merely displaced each other to the extent they could and wanted to. Then the Europeans did it to them. The worst genocide (de facto) was the spread of European diseases, especially influenza, for which native peoples had little immunity. South Sea islanders were terribly afflicted too. There were quite a few massacres by both civilians and soldiers. Forced migrations did more harm. I think half the Cherokees died on The Trail of Tears. I don't know how traumatic Kit Carson's forced migration of the Navajos was to them. It was a two-way trip for them. There was also the wiping out of the buffalo herds. I think Rand was generally to ignorant of these things to have actually endorsed them even if she had tried. If I were to endorse them I'd be a no good low down evil SOB. Most of what happened to Native Americans running into the Europeans considering the times was tragically inevitable.

Rand endorsing (hoping for) a "just" war with the Soviet Union in answer to a question at the Ford Hall Forum is much more difficult to explain away, for believable ignorance can't float that boat.

--Brant

Thank you Brant...can I use this? ~Cathy~

I wrote it in a public forum so it's yours to use.

--Brant

[Cathy]

No, no, not that I know of. I was only commenting on her image of society as just producers and leeches. |She always had young men admirers and did say at one point, I think in the pre Atlas years, that she was considering a divorce. Her life has been examined pretty heavily and there is absolutely no evidence that she ever had an extramarital lover except nb.

She thought about a divorce? Why? I remember a time when they were hiding behind a door to surprise someone (maybe us)and I came through the back door, but they were expecting the person to come through the front door. But they were giggling, and trying to shhh the other one up, but they were laughing so hard...like little kids. I cant say where and when this was...its still a foggy memory. But they were happy together...even when they knew no one was around. I'm happy they didn't get a divorce ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

It wasn't land thief except maybe purely morally, for the Native Americans held no title in lands and merely displaced each other to the extent they could and wanted to. Then the Europeans did it to them. The worst genocide (de facto) was the spread of European diseases, especially influenza, for which native peoples had little immunity. South Sea islanders were terribly afflicted too. There were quite a few massacres by both civilians and soldiers. Forced migrations did more harm. I think half the Cherokees died on The Trail of Tears. I don't know how traumatic Kit Carson's forced migration of the Navajos was to them. It was a two-way trip for them. There was also the wiping out of the buffalo herds. I think Rand was generally to ignorant of these things to have actually endorsed them even if she had tried. If I were to endorse them I'd be a no good low down evil SOB. Most of what happened to Native Americans running into the Europeans considering the times was tragically inevitable.

Rand endorsing (hoping for) a "just" war with the Soviet Union in answer to a question at the Ford Hall Forum is much more difficult to explain away, for believable ignorance can't float that boat.

--Brant

Thank you Brant...can I use this? ~Cathy~

I wrote it in a public forum so it's yours to use.

--Brant

thank you so much Brant...I am so glad you all are here! Every time I have a problem, I run over to OL and know someone is going to put me in the right direction, its a good feeling ~Cathy~

[Ellen Stuttle]

[...] it bothers me to think she said that about uncle Frank being disabled and that's why she had the affair.

Frank wasn't disabled (with advancing senility) under after the break between Rand and Nathaniel (and Barbara), and the affair had been on hold from the time of Ayn's post-Atlas depression.

She thought about a divorce? Why?

The source for that is Nathaniel's memoir, something Ayn supposedly said to him. No way to know if it's true. My belief, if it is true, is that it was during the stretch when Ayn was working on the start of Atlas Shrugged and Frank wasn't being as enthused as she wanted. There's a reference in one of her letters about that. I don't remember to whom the letter was written and don't have time now to try to find the letter. She goes on to say that then she wrote a passage which left Frank shaking and he changed his evaluation.

--

Carol, where does Rand compare humans to insects? (See your post #1025.)

Ellen

[Cathy]

Cathy, Rand made many false analogies in her passion to express her ideas. Comparing human beings to insects was one of her worst, in my opinion,

The things that I have been learning about her views on leaches and parasites, I can understand her view point on using those terms...my father used terms like that to. Some people wont try to help themselves, they wait every month for government hand outs...like parasites nesting on a host (government) and then they will take every last dime they can get, or have another child to get a raise...like a leach sucking the blood out of the government that keeps raising our taxes to keep feeding and supporting the people who now feel they are entitled. These entitlements (welfare) is suppose to be temporary and necessary for those that are in unfortunate circumstances...not to make a way of life from it. At least that's the way I perceive my aunts meaning of it...and I agree. I know a lot of people are on food stamps...my daughter is. She is a single mom and works 40 hrs a week and the stamps supplement her wages. She would rather not have food stamps and make a better wage, because she wants more out of life...and that's the way it should be. The ones who are leaches and parasites are the ones who are comfortable living in poverty and feel like they are owed those entitlements and complain about it not being enough, but yet wont go get a job or two to get out from under their situation that they are complaining about in the first place. I hope that makes sense, and if I am getting her view point right. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

[...] it bothers me to think she said that about uncle Frank being disabled and that's why she had the affair.

Frank wasn't disabled (with advancing senility) under after the break between Rand and Nathaniel (and Barbara), and the affair had been on hold from the time of Ayn's post-Atlas depression.

She thought about a divorce? Why?

The source for that is Nathaniel's memoir, something Ayn supposedly said to him. No way to know if it's true. My belief, if it is true, is that it was during the stretch when Ayn was working on the start of Atlas Shrugged and Frank wasn't being as enthused as she wanted. There's a reference in one of her letters about that. I don't remember to whom the letter was written and don't have time now to try to find the letter. She goes on to say that then she wrote a passage which left Frank shaking and he changed his evaluation.

--

Carol, where does Rand compare humans to insects? (See your post #1025.)

Ellen

Thank you Ellen, I would think Uncle Frank's lack of enthusiasm might be due to the 12 years of writing a book...maybe he just thought she would never finish it. ~Cathy~

[Ellen Stuttle]

Thank you Ellen, I would think Uncle Frank's lack of enthusiasm might be due to the 12 years of writing a book...maybe he just thought she would never finish it. ~Cathy~

Cathy, the time in question was early in her writing the book, and before she met Nathaniel and Barbara. No one at that stage anticipated that the book would need twelve years to write.

Ellen

[Cathy]

Thank you Ellen, I would think Uncle Frank's lack of enthusiasm might be due to the 12 years of writing a book...maybe he just thought she would never finish it. ~Cathy~

Cathy, the time in question was early in her writing the book, and before she met Nathaniel and Barbara. No one at that stage anticipated that the book would need twelve years to write.

Ellen

I need to learn, that marriages have their ups and downs...even theirs. When I heard about the affair...it shook my world. I always looked at all of them, Uncle Frank, Aunt Alice, Aunt Agnes, my father and mother as perfect people. I guess because I was so young and didn't know them in adult life, where I could rationalize that no one is perfect. I guess I still try to have that mind set about all of them. I hate thinking that any of them would be hurt in anyway. ~Cathy~

[Neil Parille]

Mark Twain wasn't a fan of the American Indian either.

http://twain.lib.virginia.edu/projects/rissetto/redman.html

[Brant Gaede]

Mark Twain wasn't a fan of the American Indian either.

http://twain.lib.virginia.edu/projects/rissetto/redman.html

Gee. I guess he got pissed off when he saw Dancing with Wolves.

--Brant

[caroljane]

Ellen, I am trying to remember where I read about Rand considering divorce. It was in the forties, before she met the Brandens, so it was not because of him....maybe it was in the Heller book.

[Selene]

It was in the Heller or Burns book, I think.

[Selene]

It was in the Heller or Burns book

Now this is interesting Pg. 26-27 Burns:

When close friends of the O'Conner family went through a wrenching divorce, Ayn and Frank sheltered Frank's ten-year-old goddaughter for a summer.

Maybe Cathy remembers something about that.

Wow, forgot that she called him "Cubbyhole" and he called her "Fluff."

[Ellen Stuttle]

Now this is interesting Pg. 26-27 Burns:

When close friends of the O'Conner family went through a wrenching divorce, Ayn and Frank sheltered Frank's ten-year-old goddaughter for a summer.

I think the goddaughter was the daughter of a woman named Milly in whom Nick had been interested - the same woman who later made the remark about Jews and was informed by Ayn that she, Ayn, was Jewish.

Ellen

[Selene]

Yep - here it is Heller pgs. 184, 230, in the index under O'Conner-Rand relationship, sub-heading divorce, Rand's consideration of:

Another acquaintance recalled that Rand had once confided in her that this period was a bad one for their marriage. Exasperated by Frank's intellectual and sexual passivity, she considered divorcing him, she said, but decided to put it off until she finished writing Atlas Shrugged. [WOW SECOND HAND SECRET HEARSAY WITH NO SOURCING!] Pg. 184]

and

In their memoirs, both Brandens would declare that a few years after meering Rand, the author would confide that her marriage had been in trouble at the time and that she had contemplated divorce; [WOW AND COMMITED CONTEMPLATION OF DIVORCE!!]

OK - that's it! Burn the Witch for CONTEMPLATION! We have enough witnesses and one is even secret...unless Burns knew that the secret witness was, OMG - Barbara!

A plot is born.

Geez, this is so flimsy, only a Canadian would believe it!

I mean...come on, this is ridiculous.

A...

[caroljane]

I said I had read it,not that I necessarily believed it, but it is not hard to believe that she, or any married woman, might have contemplated divorce at some point. Obviously the result of her contemplation was that she wanted to stay married.

[Selene]

I said I had read it,not that I necessarily believed it, but it is not hard to believe that she, or any married woman, might have contemplated divorce at some point. Obviously the result of her contemplation was that she wanted to stay married.

Gee, I even heard that at sometime in a man's marriage that he actually may have thought about maybe considering contemplating divorce also.

Kinda a human thing.

Gettin a little teechy thar Northern neighbor?

A...

[caroljane]

Anybody would be tetchy here today. The Leafs got so lambasted last night that the NHL scoresite did not even report it. And Mayor Buffoon is still at the helm waving his crack pipe and giving us the finger.

[Ellen Stuttle]

Here is the source of the divorce story. I'll quote the lead-up. It's illustrative of Nathaniel's way of insinuating.

Judgment Day

pp. 66-67

[bold emphasis added]

Although we rarely discussed it, Barbara and I found Ayn's and Frank's relationship puzzling. We wondered about what they had in common. He never participated actively in our discussions, did not read books, was clearly not an intellectual, did not match her energy or passion. They had met when he was a struggling actor. Now Frank was operating their thirteen-acre ranch, which he had reconditioned and landscaped, growing flowers and citrus trees as a commercial enterprise. He was most alive and talkative when discussing his ranch activities.

"I never miss acting, never think about it," he told me cheerfully. "I love the ranch."

"Frank believed in me, saw who I was and what I would become, when no one else did, when we were both young and struggling and had nothing," Ayn told us. "We have the same sense of life. But Frank is too disgusted with people to share what he is with the world."

Frank would listen silently to such statements, almost like the painting on the wall. Once I found myself wondering why, since Frank was not "disgusted" with Ayn, Barbara, or me, he was so silent during our meetings. He had great natural dignity, considerable charm, and always projected enormous benevolence, and I felt much affection for him; and yet I found his lack of ambition incomprehensible, given that he was "Ayn Rand's husband." For another man, operating the ranch would have been a perfectly legitimate occupation. But when Ayn spoke of work and career she spoke of changing the world, of having an impact on history. "I could never love anyone who was not a hero," she said; literally, a hero meant someone who excelled in moral virtue high above the average, but it also usually connoted, in the contexts in which she used the term, someone with a range of vision and ambition far beyond anything Frank suggested. I recognized that there was something between them I did not understand.

Yet I made no particular effort to get to know Frank. I would ask an occasional question about his ranch activities or admire the beautiful peacocks he raised or observe that he looked a little tired. But within moments my attention swung irresistibly back to Ayn. She was the great light that leaves everything beyond it in darkness. Most people who I saw at the ranch treated Frank as I did. He was the man who wasn't quite there.

At this time I had absolutely no intimation of trouble between Ayn and Frank. Ayn told me, much later, that those years on the ranch had been very bad for them. They were quarreling a great deal. She was bothered by his passivity and nonintellectuality. Then she confided that in the entire history of their relationship, not once had he initiated sex; it was always she who began it; after that, she said, everything went fine, he was very involved and uninhibited; but it was not difficult to imagine how that would leave her feeling. Then, there was the plain fact of their enormous intellectual differences - not merely the issue of intelligence but also differences in how their minds worked. She understood only pure, linear, sequential reasoning; he was almost totally intuitive; and although he could appreciate her cognitive style, she was never really comfortable with his. She said that she had been thinking of divorce but wanted to wait until the novel was finished because she dreaded the interruption of her work. Work came above everything. Years later she told me that she could not live without him. He was, in his own sad way, her rock.

Ellen