Selene Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 Heinlein and Randhttp://www.pulpless.com/heinsamp/heinsamp.htmlhttp://www.thrive-movement.com/documents/heinlein_rand.htmlhttp://www.heinleinsociety.org/thsnexus/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=167&start=10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 Lots of love to your and yours, Cathy.Merry Christmas.Michael & Kat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 I hope all of you had a nice Christmas and I want to say thank you so much for being my friends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 Friends?! We ain't got no friends! We don't need no stinkin' friends! --Alfonso Bedoya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 ~HAPPY NEW YEARS EVERYONE~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 News Years! We ain't got no news years. We don't need no stinkin' news years! --Alfonso Bedoya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Thank goodness 2014 is going to be over in a little under an hour.Looking forward to 2015.Happy New Year, Cathy.Happy New Year, everybody.Michael & Kat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) Here's a new article from Lauren Davis, "Here's What Would Happen If You Asked Ayn Rand To Loan You Money"In 1949, a 17-year-old girl named Connie Papurt wanted to buy a dress but needed $25. So she did what a lot of young women in her situation would do: asked a relative if she could borrow the money. The relative? Her aunt, author and economic philosopher Ayn Rand.Papurt is the daughter of Agnes Papurt, sister of Rand's husband, Frank O'Connor. The Toast spotted this letter from Rand to her niece in the book Letters of Ayn Rand, and has shared it for our reading pleasure. Naturally, Rand couldn't resist answer a request for a loan with a dissertation on fiscal responsibility. While there is some sensible stuff in here (and hey, at least she admits that Connie doesn't have to agree with her personal philosophy), most communications with teenage girls don't turn into a miniature version of Atlas Shrugged, paired with threats of viewing them as embezzlers. I suppose, though, young Connie knew — or at least should have known — what she was in for when she made the request:May 22, 1949 Dear Connie: You are very young, so I don't know whether you realize the seriousness of your action in writing to me for money. Since I don't know you at all, I am going to put you to a test. If you really want to borrow $25 from me, I will take a chance on finding out what kind of person you are. You want to borrow the money until your graduation. I will do better than that. I will make it easier for you to repay the debt, but on condition that you understand and accept it as a strict and serious business deal. Before you borrow it, I want you to think it over very carefully. Here are my conditions: If I send you the $25, I will give you a year to repay it. I will give you six months after your graduation to get settled in a job. Then, you will start repaying the money in installments: you will send me $5 on January 15, 1950, and $4 on the 15th of every month after that; the last installment will be on June 15, 1950—and that will repay the total. Are you willing to do it? Here is what I want you to think over: Once you get a job, there will always be many things which you will need and on which you might prefer to spend your money, rather than repay a debt. I want you to decide now, in advance, as an honest and responsible person, whether you will be willing and able to repay this money, no matter what happens, as an obligation above and ahead of any other expense. I want you to understand right now that I will not accept any excuse—except a serious illness. If you become ill, then I will give you an extension of time—but for no other reason. If, when the debt becomes due, you tell me that you can't pay me because you needed a new pair of shoes or a new coat or you gave the money to somebody in the family who needed it more than I do—then I will consider you as an embezzler. No, I won't send a policeman after you, but I will write you off as a rotten person and I will never speak or write to you again. Now I will tell you why I am so serious and severe about this. I despise irresponsible people. I don't want to deal with them or help them in any way. An irresponsible person is a person who makes vague promises, then breaks his word, blames it on circumstances and expects other people to forgive it. A responsible person does not make a promise without thinking of all the consequences and being prepared to meet them. You want $25 for the purpose of buying a dress; you tell me that you will get a job and be able to repay me. That's fine and I am willing to help you, if that is exactly what you mean. But if what you mean is: give me the money now and I will repay it if I don't change my mind about it—then the deal is off. If I keep my part of the deal, you must keep yours, just exactly as agreed, no matter what happens. I was very badly disappointed in Mimi and Marna [Docky]. When I first met Mimi, she asked me to give her money for the purpose of taking an art course. I gave her the money, but she did not take the art course. I supported Marna for a year—for the purpose of helping her to finish high school. She did not finish high school. I will take a chance on you, because I don't want to blame you for the actions of your sisters. But I want you to show me that you are a better kind of person. I will tell you the reasons for the conditions I make: I think that the person who asks and expects other people to give him money, instead of earning it, is the most rotten person on earth. I would like to teach you, if I can, very early in life, the idea of a self-respecting, self-supporting, responsible, capitalistic person. If you borrow money and repay it, it is the best training in responsibility that you can ever have. I want you to drop—if you have it in your mind—the idea that you are entitled to take money or support from me, just because we happen to be relatives. I want you to understand very clearly, right now, when you are young, that no honest person believes that he is obliged to support his relatives. I don't believe it and will not do it. I cannot like you or want to help you without reason, just because you need the help. That is not a good reason. But you can earn my liking, my interest and my help by showing me that you are a good person. Now think this over and let me know whether you want to borrow the money on my conditions and whether you give me your word of honor to observe the conditions. If you do, I will send you the money. If you don't understand me, if you think that I am a hard, cruel, rich old woman and you don't approve of my ideas—well, you don't have to approve, but then you must not ask me for help. I will wait to hear from you, and if I find out that you are my kind of person, then I hope that this will be the beginning of a real friendship between us, which would please me very much. Your aunt, So how did Connie respond? Head over to The Toast to see the next letter that Rand wrote to Connie Papurt. It seems she was actually quite well prepared for the rant that her aunt threw at her. But you'd have to be if you're going to ask Ayn Rand for money.-- credit should go to the editors at the wee website The Toast. They have more than several "Ayn Rand Rewrites," including such titles as Ayn Rand’s The Devil Wears Prada, and Ayn Rand’s Harry Potter and The Order of Psycho-epistemology Edited January 16, 2015 by william.scherk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 William,We discussed this letter in depth here on OL somewhere.In fact, I suspect it was right here on this very thread.The original was up for sale on eBay at the time.I'll try to find it later if someone else doesn't get there first.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 William,We discussed this letter in depth here on OL somewhere.In fact, I suspect it was right here on this very thread.The original was up for sale on eBay at the time.I'll try to find it later if someone else doesn't get there first.MichaelI posted that letter in #589.However, it wasn't up for sake on eBay. Possibly you're thinking of a different letter, one which Brant mentioned - here - as being up for sale on eBay. That was a letter from Rand to Marcella Bannett Rabwin, "Mrs. Peter Keating."Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Ellen,Thank you.You're right about eBay. But I think I was thinking of a letter from Ayn Rand to a preacher.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 William,We discussed this letter in depth here on OL somewhere.In fact, I suspect it was right here on this very thread.The original was up for sale on eBay at the time.I'll try to find it later if someone else doesn't get there first.MichaelI posted that letter in #589.However, it wasn't up for sake on eBay. Possibly you're thinking of a different letter, one which Brant mentioned - here - as being up for sale on eBay. That was a letter from Rand to Marcella Bannett Rabwin, "Mrs. Peter Keating."EllenWhen you click on this link you'll find another link from Peter R. in the following post taking you to the site selling grossly overpriced items, some Rand. For $8000 you can buy a "First Edition" copy of The Fountainhead with a worthless Facsimile jacket and what is likely a forged clipped Ayn Rand signature pasted inside the front cover. Her signature is easy to forge. Only an idiot would clip her signature for that would destroy the value of what it was clipped from. Now a first edition doesn't mean a first printing, even, but I forgot the little differences printing to printing. I consider the value of this book to be ruined. That stamping below the signature only makes it all worse.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Marna (Docky) did finish school. Aunt Alice heard Marna wasn't attending school, but didn't realize at the time of this letter school was out for break. Connie was the youngest of Aunt agnes's children, Aunt Alice did loan Connie the money. But Connie's uncle on the Papurt side ended up buying Connie the dress and she didn't have to pay him back. Connie got angry with Aunt Alice and did not repay back the entire loan. Docky does not like this letter, it killed Aunt Agnes to have to go to Aunt Alice in help on supporting Docky's schooling. But all made sacrifices at that time for Aunt Agnes's children to achieve what was best for them...and most of the sacrifices were made out of love for the family. I no being who she was, has brought this letter to the attention of people who want to know Aunt Alice's life, but most letters like these are only known in private to the families who received them. This was personal, and it wasn't the fact that Aunt Alice gave Connie a lecture about responsibility, but that its out there for everyone to see, and my Aunt Agnes felt that she was less then a mother. This letter still haunts Docky to this day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The problem with the letter is dumping anger on a young lady for perceived sins of others.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Exactly brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Yes, our "paragon of rationality" could be a nasty bitch. Which of course, made her a human being just like the rest of us, with clay feet. However, does anyone care about that aspect of her? I would rather be insulted by Ayn, than be praised by Peikoff, or, O'bama.At least I get brilliance in the trade.A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Maybe people are looking at the philosophy aspect of this letter, but as the ones she is talking about looking irresponsible...thats all they see (Docky & Connie) and the whole family.Docky said it made the O'Connor side look like they were entitled, greedy and ungrateful. Docky would spend outs as a teenager acting out plays with Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank, and she hated it most of the time, she wanted to go see if there were any good looking boys. But Aunt Alice didn't write a letter saying thank you to Docky for all her efforts in being with them and helping them with their play skits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Maybe people are looking at the philosophy aspect of this letter, but as the ones she is talking about looking irresponsible...thats all they see (Docky & Connie) and the whole family.Docky said it made the O'Connor side look like they were entitled, greedy and ungrateful. Docky would spend outs as a teenager acting out plays with Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank, and she hated it most of the time, she wanted to go see if there were any good looking boys. But Aunt Alice didn't write a letter saying thank you to Docky for all her efforts in being with them and helping them with their play skits.Precisely.Many brilliant people lack a certain sense touch module in their minds.Also, and this is so important, her parents had parents that embedded them with "unreal premises."It is a fact of living. Her novels rarely even refer to motherhood except on one page in Atlas Shrugged.Family is not a concept that she was versed in.Personally, I think she would have been a very marginal mother.A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Adam, that's almost what "Aunt Agnes" said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Maybe people are looking at the philosophy aspect of this letter, but as the ones she is talking about looking irresponsible...thats all they see (Docky & Connie) and the whole family.Docky said it made the O'Connor side look like they were entitled, greedy and ungrateful. Docky would spend outs as a teenager acting out plays with Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank, and she hated it most of the time, she wanted to go see if there were any good looking boys. But Aunt Alice didn't write a letter saying thank you to Docky for all her efforts in being with them and helping them with their play skits.Cathy,Aunt Alice would have considered a letter thanking Docky for spending time with them helping with their plays as perhaps insulting to Docky, implying she was doing it out of some kind of altruistic purpose rather than the enjoyment of it or the learning experience. As far as the letter to Connie, she was trying to mentor Connie. The letter was very emphatic and memorable, that's how mentoring important lessons are done. My uncle didn't make long lectures but he was to the point, "A man who won't work is worth nothing", or "A man who would hit a women is not a man". Or "if you start lying you will never be able to stop, one lie always leads to another". "No honest man will deal with a liar." These statements were directly related to my behavior at the time they were said. Shirking my chores, hitting my sisters, telling a fib. They weren't intended to hurt me but to very directly inform me of what is acceptable and what is not to a person who wants to call themselves a man. A man also doesn't let down his friends, his neighbors, his family. You do this by always taking care of yourself, saving, working, staying healthy and strong. Be self sufficient and don't be a victim. I loved my uncle more than I can say, but I would also have loved to have had Ayn Rand for a mentor growing up. I thank you for sharing your stories but I don't think your Aunt Alice had an intention of hurting anyone's feelings. Simply trying to give a lesson she was uniquely qualified to give. But I think most people are a bit thin skinned. Thanks again, very much, for sharing your stories. I, personally, love your Aunt Alice and am envious you knew her as a child! That's probably not very objectivish (as William would say) but I can live with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 LOL Hi Mikee, I wish I had Aunt Alice now to give me some insight...or Aunt Agnes for that matter. I know you know her as Ayn Rand, but I know her as my aunt...only. If I was Connie, I would have asked Uncle Frank for the money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reidy Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Do you have any record of these plays? New writing from Rand would be valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I'll asked Docky if she has any Reidy. She is suppose to go through all the negatives to give me copies of family photos. I told her I would even come there and get them developed myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Happy Birthday Aunt Alice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Happy Birthday Aunt Alice!I knew you would remember.Ayn and thank for helping me be better as a person.No greater gift can one stranger give to another.A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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