Frank's Niece!

[Mikee]

Cathy,

I believe religion is just a place holder for all the things we don't understand. For myself it is the sense of life of a benevolent universe. A way of saying that ultimately everything makes sense and is understandable. It's possible that no human who ever lived or will live will ever understand the deep mysteries of the universe. The universe does not need a god.

[Brant Gaede]

Cathy,

I believe religion is just a place holder for all the things we don't understand. For myself it is the sense of life of a benevolent universe. A way of saying that ultimately everything makes sense and is understandable. It's possible that no human who ever lived or will live will ever understand the deep mysteries of the universe. The universe does not need a god.

These deep mysteries may exist in a handfull of dirt or a drop of water. I'd not think of deep mysteries, however, but the possibility of big ones knowledge of which has been excluded by the limitation of the speed of light if not something else, like the size and ability of our brains. Take what one's dog cannot know. Why aren't we also so limited except for a larger scale? What scale would be large enough and what would the survival value be? Biggest if not deepest mystery of all, so I think.

--Brant

I think the unknown is the real root of faith, not irrationality but modesty--Newton was a modest man

[Cathy]

But, who created us? If we evolved, then where did dogs and cats evolve from? I have heard...have faith...pray about it, go to mass, you don't want to go to hell, God is everywhere. I grew up with this. God isn't everywhere, or at least not where I am. I use to think, its in God's time...but I am older now, and time is running out. But I do know there is something after death...believe me, there is another realm or purgatory...something. But when you are a good person, and bad things happen, after your faithful to God and Pray...still bad things happen. If there isn't a God, what is our purpose? Just a legacy we leave with our family and friends? I know I would be a good person if I had faith or if I didn't. My 14 year doesn't believe in God, and I am starting to understand why she doesn't...and I am starting to understand why I did...it was pushed on me, I would be damned to hell if I didn't believe in God. Brant says mysteries, and Mikee said, Religion is a place holder for things we cant understand. Is God a mystery? Is religion for us to understand God? Or is all of this another philosophy to live by? Why do we need any of it and just live by our own wits? Why did people need Aunt Alice's philosophy? Why isn't it enough to be born, to live and then to die? There are different religions, just like Peter said, All religions cannot be right since they contradict each other but all religions can be wrong. Adam is a Mason, I never heard of that before. Do people pick a religion they feel most comfortable with to help with their purpose of life, or was raised in? Isn't it enough to teach our children right from wrong and good from evil with you as their example...or do we have to put God in the mix for back up? I hope I haven't insulted anyone...I don't mean to. I just see bad things happen to good people and good things happen to evil people. Why cant we tell little white lies to not hurt someone, or be gay, or live with someone without marriage, or have a baby out of wedlock...we are not hurting anyone. Why can't we be born and live our life as long as we don't hurt anyone and die in peace without worrying if we are going to go to hell because we said one time God damn it? ~Cathy~

[Peter]

Cathy wrote:

Why can't we be born and live our life as long as we don't hurt anyone and die in peace . . .

end quote

You can live a good, decent life in a civilized society, and that is where Ayn Rand enters my thinking. As to life after death, I see no evidence for it, but it is a wonderful idea. I plan on setting my mind on dream mode every night, just in case . . . I was watching the Science Channel yesterday and it was discussing evolution and genetics. Some people think our genetic code was seeded from other star systems by benevolent beings. Could they leave us a message? Perhaps it is in those unused portions of our DNA. There are actually scientists looking for that message. If we do find life on other planets or if other life finds us, it will be thrilling to see if the Universe and nature produce similar DNA. "That's just the way it is . . . some things they never change . . ."

[Guyau]

Hi Cathy,

I don’t think we get to choose our beliefs. I think we can choose to pursue new lines of reasoning or choose to consider new kinds of evidence, but I’m pretty sure we are just stuck with the view we judge to be true on our new line of reasoning or evidence. I mean that about you and me and about your 14 year old.

I think we get to choose to seek value in the world, ourselves, and other people. We are ourselves fountains of value and we know it. That’s a sort of free-choice activity, although to make life and happiness and any values here actual, we need to be receptive to the facts of the world as our field of play, like an inventor works with facts and makes something new on them.

Either God exists or does not exist. Whichever is the case, it is the case regardless of which we believe. Of course people mean different things by the name God. One thing they usually include under the name in the modern world is perfect goodness. The love of goodness is something I highly approve of in people right here in this world around us, whether they tie it God or, like me and your daughter, tie it to only the living earth and people here.

I think when we die we stop. The world and all its other value goes on. That we lived and were makers of value remains a fact forever, even after trace and memory of us is gone. Love and making value continues where human life remains.

Stephen

[Brant Gaede]

Cathy wrote:

Why can't we be born and live our life as long as we don't hurt anyone and die in peace . . .

end quote

You can live a good, decent life in a civilized society, and that is where Ayn Rand enters my thinking. As to life after death, I see no evidence for it, but it is a wonderful idea. I plan on setting my mind on dream mode every night, just in case . . . I was watching the Science Channel yesterday and it was discussing evolution and genetics. Some people think our genetic code was seeded from other star systems by benevolent beings. Could they leave us a message? Perhaps it is in those unused portions of our DNA. There are actually scientists looking for that message. If we do find life on other planets or if other life finds us, it will be thrilling to see if the Universe and nature produce similar DNA. "That's just the way it is . . . some things they never change . . ."

Thanks Peter. I like the idea of "dream mode." I'm going to set my mind on "wet-dream mode."

--Brant

[Cathy]

Cathy wrote:

Why can't we be born and live our life as long as we don't hurt anyone and die in peace . . .

end quote

You can live a good, decent life in a civilized society, and that is where Ayn Rand enters my thinking. As to life after death, I see no evidence for it, but it is a wonderful idea. I plan on setting my mind on dream mode every night, just in case . . . I was watching the Science Channel yesterday and it was discussing evolution and genetics. Some people think our genetic code was seeded from other star systems by benevolent beings. Could they leave us a message? Perhaps it is in those unused portions of our DNA. There are actually scientists looking for that message. If we do find life on other planets or if other life finds us, it will be thrilling to see if the Universe and nature produce similar DNA. "That's just the way it is . . . some things they never change . . ."

Thanks Peter. I like the idea of "dream mode." I'm going to set my mind on "wet-dream mode."

--Brant

LOL! Brant your to funny!

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Cathy,

I hear you.

I'm mulling...

Michael

[Cathy]

Cathy,

I hear you.

I'm mulling...

Michael

Are you still mulling I would like to get your input on this to Michael...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Cathy,

This is a big issue and if I start right now, I might end up like Mark Twain did when he sent a long-ass letter to a person and apologized because he didn't have time to make it shorter.

Tomorrow I have a more relaxed day. And I have been mulling so maybe I can be succinct, but still make a good point.

I will say right now that what you are feeling is not new in mankind. People have been asking why bad things happen to good people and vice-versa, including why God allows that to happen, ever since the dawn of religion.

One of the most moving dramatic expressions of grief and outrage about this was in a movie I saw a long time ago. Believe it or not, the main actress was Carol Burnett. Heavy, dark drama and she killed it. If she had not become a comedian, I believe she would have been one of the greatest female dramatic actresses Hollywood ever produced.

I dug around and the movie is called "Friendly Fire." I think that's the right one. It's about a simple salt-of-the-earth woman in Iowa who lost her son in the Vietnam war and could not understand the cover-up stuff happening with the military. Then she discovered her son was killed by friendly fire and at some point (if I remember correctly--I believe it was when she found out or when she saw her son in the casket), she melted down, went out in her backyard and cursed God to the heavens, starting slow and building up in anguish and venom to a gut-wrenching climax. This left a huge impression on me at the time.

I will have more to say tomorrow, but for now, just be aware that you are not alone.

Michael

EDIT: My memory is vague, but I believe Carol Burnett's character in the movie went back to being religious after that outburst.

[Cathy]

Cathy,

This is a big issue and if I start right now, I might end up like Mark Twain did when he sent a long-ass letter to a person and apologized because he didn't have time to make it shorter.

Tomorrow I have a more relaxed day. And I have been mulling so maybe I can be succinct, but still make a good point.

I will say right now that what you are feeling is not new in mankind. People have been asking why bad things happen to good people and vice-versa, including why God allows that to happen, ever since the dawn of religion.

One of the most moving dramatic expressions of grief and outrage about this was in a movie I saw a long time ago. Believe it or not, the main actress was Carol Burnett. Heavy, dark drama and she killed it. If she had not become a comedian, I believe she would have been one of the greatest female dramatic actresses Hollywood ever produced.

I dug around and the movie is called "Friendly Fire." I think that's the right one. It's about a simple salt-of-the-earth woman in Iowa who lost her son in the Vietnam war and could not understand the cover-up stuff happening with the military. Then she discovered her son was killed by friendly fire and at some point (if I remember correctly--I believe it was when she found out or when she saw her son in the casket), she melted down, went out in her backyard and cursed God to the heavens, starting slow and building up in anguish and venom to a gut-wrenching climax. This left a huge impression on me at the time.

I will have more to say tomorrow, but for now, just be aware that you are not alone.

Michael

EDIT: My memory is vague, but I believe Carol Burnett's character in the movie went back to being religious after that outburst.

Thank you Michael, I am going to look for that movie and I have always loved Carol Burnett. Even Jesus hanging on the cross asked God why he has forsaken him. Sometimes I think people give God more excuses then they give Obama. I hate feeling this way. Since I have found out who Aunt Alice really was, and learning her philosophy has turned everything upside down. I have had people tell me how she has saved/changed their lives when they needed it most...I want that for Haley. If it means Haley will be an Atheist, I am now ok with that. But I need to understand more. I understand about what evidence or lack of evidence that there isn't a God, but the evidence that we evolved isn't much better. I have been reading about DNA in primates (monkeys and apes) that are comparable to ours. But that still isn't enough for me. Haley is my last child to get it "right" and I want her to see every opportunity that is a head for her. I don't want her closed off from the outside world like I was. She has her own mind and own way of thinking, and I don't want to become my father (which at times comes out of me) that she has to think my way and there is only black and white, no grey. So for me to better understand, I have to learn just like she is learning. Believing or not believing in God is a big one for me and I don't want to be closed minded about it or Haley will not talk to me about it. So I am listening to her, and she makes some good points on many things on why she is atheist. When she walks into adulthood I want her feet on stable ground (unlike me). ~Cathy~

[Selene]

Thank you Michael, I am going to look for that movie and I have always loved Carol Burnett. Even Jesus hanging on the cross asked God why he has forsaken him. Sometimes I think people give God more excuses then they give Obama. I hate feeling this way. Since I have found out who Aunt Alice really was, and learning her philosophy has turned everything upside down. I have had people tell me how she has saved/changed their lives when they needed it most...I want that for Haley. If it means Haley will be an Atheist, I am now ok with that. But I need to understand more. I understand about what evidence or lack of evidence that there isn't a God, but the evidence that we evolved isn't much better. I have been reading about DNA in primates (monkeys and apes) that are comparable to ours. But that still isn't enough for me. Haley is my last child to get it "right" and I want her to see every opportunity that is a head for her. I don't want her closed off from the outside world like I was. She has her own mind and own way of thinking, and I don't want to become my father (which at times comes out of me) that she has to think my way and there is only black and white, no grey. So for me to better understand, I have to learn just like she is learning. Believing or not believing in God is a big one for me and I don't want to be closed minded about it or Haley will not talk to me about it. So I am listening to her, and she makes some good points on many things on why she is atheist. When she walks into adulthood I want her feet on stable ground (unlike me). ~Cathy~

Cathy:

This is an excellent statement that you made. A testimony to how a free mind wants her daughter to be free.

You should write more because your transformation has been stunning.

A...

[Cathy]

HAPPY FATHER'S DAY TO ALL OF YOU GREAT FATHER'S OUT THERE!

[Selene]

Thanks and to your husband also.

From The Natural..

Redford:    Is he with his father?             Close:      No.                       His father lives in New York.                 Redford:    Oh, you're...                  Close:      But I've been thinking that he needs            his father now. He's at that age.                           I think he needs him.                 Redford:    Sure.                              A father makes all the difference.

[Cathy]

Thanks and to your husband also.

From The Natural..

Redford:    Is he with his father?             Close:      No.                       His father lives in New York.                 Redford:    Oh, you're...                  Close:      But I've been thinking that he needs            his father now. He's at that age.                           I think he needs him.                 Redford:    Sure.                              A father makes all the difference.

That's right...a father does make a difference, they are half their child's soul...~Cathy~

[Selene]

That's right...a father does make a difference, they are half their child's soul...~Cathy~

Well put!! May I employ your statement?

[Cathy]

That's right...a father does make a difference, they are half their child's soul...~Cathy~

Well put!! May I employ your statement?

yes you can...and I hope your Father's day was as great as you are! ~Cathy~

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Cathy,

You are a sweetheart.

I hope you never change.

Michael

[Cathy]

Cathy,

You are a sweetheart.

I hope you never change.

Michael

I am to old to ;) thank you!

[Brant Gaede]

I ain't got no kids.

As soon as they turned into uppity teenagers I murdered them in their beds!

--Brant

saved hundreds of thousands in college tuition

(before you condemn me, try it for yourselves)

[Cathy]

I ain't got no kids.

As soon as they turned into uppity teenagers I murdered them in their beds!

--Brant

saved hundreds of thousands in college tuition

(before you condemn me, try it for yourselves)

LOL! Only you Brant! Someone wrote on facebook...Using "two" words, what would you have done different in your past? I wrote, birth control!

[Cathy]

You all probably already read the poem Aunt Alice said over Uncle Frank when he died. But I just read it today thanks to a friend on f/b. I didn't get to go to his funeral for obvious reasons, and when I read this today it really sunk in on what a great loss he was to Aunt Alice. I didn't think about that before, but how she must have missed him. After reading this, my heart ached for her.

When Earth's last picture is painted
And the tubes are twisted and dried
When the oldest colors have faded
And the youngest critic has died
We shall rest, and faith, we shall need it
Lie down for an aeon or two
'Till the Master of all good workmen
Shall put us to work anew
And those that were good shall be happy
They'll sit in a golden chair
They'll splash at a ten league canvas
With brushes of comet's hair
They'll find real saints to draw from
Magdalene, Peter, and Paul
They'll work for an age at a sitting
And never be tired at all.
And only the Master shall praise us.
And only the Master shall blame.
And no one will work for the money.
No one will work for the fame.
But each for the joy of the working,
And each, in his separate star,
Will draw the thing as he sees it.
For the God of things as they are!

[anthony]

Stunning! I didn't know this, thanks.

[Selene]

FYI folks.

The poem is by Rudyard Kipling.

A...

[Brant Gaede]

FYI folks.

The poem is by Rudyard Kipling.

A...

What's the reference for Ayn's reading that poem over her husband's grave. I know of her liking Kipling, but this is the first I've heard of it.

--Brant

could it be the Sures?