The Israeli-Palestinian issue

[anthony]

Michael,

I think I see where you're going on this race-ethnicity-culture thing.

Only trouble is, it's hard to argue with the common perception of Jews as a race, and harder to dimiss the dictionary definition; both my dictionaries give Jew as 'a member of the Hebrew race.'

The 'lumping' together of a hugely disparate, widely scattered people, under the name 'Jew', often doesn't do the Jews themselves any favours.

I, who by having a Jewish mother, am automatically considered Jewish, by Jews and others, - despite never having been brought up as one, never practising as one, and being an Atheist, have had my own difficulty convincing anyone that I am not a Jew. (As a BTW, I am open and honest about my roots.)

I've found that Jews themselves are enthusiastic to 'discover' another Jew - as a result I suppose of the small numbers of that tribe, and their repressive history.

An old man said to me once "Doesn't matter what you call yourself; if they come for us again, you are just going to be one more Jew."

Yes, I heartily endorse your "religious culture" definition - but the Jews, their friends, and their enemies, will continue seeing it as a collective race.

Tony

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Tony,

I personally know oodles of Jews who do not consider themselves to be part of a "Jewish race." In addition to religion, I have often heard the term "Jewish people" from them. Rarely "Jewish race."

In fact, most of them are really antsy about using the term "race." I am not very friendly with fundamentalist or right-wing fanatical Zionists, but I don't imagine they have much objection to the racial characterization.

Here is a small discussion by MidEastweb I managed to find. It gives a pretty good nutshell description of the values at stake, including the text of the infamous UN Resolution 3379 (which later was repealed): UN General Assembly Resolution 3379.

The now-repealed UN resolution specifically ends with the determination that: "Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination."

EDIT: Here is a very good discussion on Zionism on the same site: Zionism: The history of Zionism and the creation of Israel. Note that there are all kinds of Zionism, from radical right-wing extremists to mainstream to many other things.

Here's an interesting quote from that article on the origin of the race theory:

Some Jews converted to Christianity and assimilated to surrounding society. Others, exposed to a general education, dropped their religious beliefs, but considered themselves Jews, and understood that others still considered them to be Jews. This suggested a conundrum. If one could be a non-believer and still be a Jew, then "Jew" must be more than just the name of a religion. German racists solved this conundrum by inventing a racial theory, which lacked any real scientific basis.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

Here's an interesting quote from that article on the origin of the race theory:

Some Jews converted to Christianity and assimilated to surrounding society. Others, exposed to a general education, dropped their religious beliefs, but considered themselves Jews, and understood that others still considered them to be Jews. This suggested a conundrum. If one could be a non-believer and still be a Jew, then "Jew" must be more than just the name of a religion. German racists solved this conundrum by inventing a racial theory, which lacked any real scientific basis.

Michael

Race theory misses the mark. It is not genes. Rather it is memes. What makes Jews, Jews is the way they think. It is in the head, not the reproductive organs.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Leonid]

To start with-there is no such a thing as Jewish race. Jews belong to Semitic race and have common gene pool with Arabs. So their accusations of Jewish racism towards Arabs are simply ridiculous. Jewness and Judaism is not the same. Jews may share common ancestry, language, history and tradition and the same time to be secular. I know Christians who claim to be Jews. Some people claim that Palestinian Arabs are actually Jews who converted to Islam. All this doesn’t have anything to do with the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict. As any other war, this conflict originated and perpetuated by power-hungry Arab politicians who thrive on blood. War is the only justification for their existence. When Palestinians will understand that and discard their leaders to the dustbin of history, adopt principles of inalienable rights and non-initiation of force, the conflict will resolve instantly.

[anthony]

The link that Michael provided to a potted history of Zionism and Israel is very valuable, and taught me plenty.

I deeply regret that all of us participating here did not start off with this as a reference point.

Too bad...

UN's devious and craven back-pedalling with Resolution 3379, declaring Zionism 'racist', has done untold harm to the Mid East. Just for a start it upped Israel's defensive-aggressive stance to its neighbours; quite rightly it felt the UN's moral and legal support was arbitrarily revoked, and it was being thrown to the wolves.

So Israel retreated into "Laager mentality"; (That's the circle of ox-wagons, not the beer, BTW), and deaths of Palestinians and Israelis were a direct outcome.

[Selene]

Folks:

Can anybody list the top ten (10) positive achievements accomplished by the United Nations...aside from double parking in my beloved city?

Adam

[anthony]

Folks:

Can anybody list the top ten (10) positive achievements accomplished by the United Nations...aside from double parking in my beloved city?

Adam

Adam,

Yes, may a pox take them (in my Dad's words) - double parking, too!

The U.S. has been a shining exception in that chamber, I believe, and back in 1975, Daniel Moynihan ( Irish Jewish American was he? )made an impassioned speech against 3379.

The most savage result of that Resolution was that from the PLO in 1975, to Hamas today, the Palestinians, and the world have had a rallying-cry "Zionism = Racism!'

It was this sort of motivation that gave the Palestinians a false confidence and bravado that they could bring down Israel, - by terror or by public opinion - and frittered away 30 more years, and untold lives.

The power of words; what began as a noble ideal based on the survival of a people, has been corrupted, perhaps forever.

It's a growing conviction in my mind, that the early secular-humanist Zionists were libertarians.

Tony

[anthony]

Adonis (hoping you're still around),

I don't doubt that we are on the same page, in both desiring long-standing peace between the Arab world and Israel.

We are probably not going to agree on the methodology.

Here's how I see it. I think there comes a time when a line must be drawn under everything that has gone before, in one's personal life, and with nations.

This is reality the way the Jews have always understood it, and how they have survived. The old "end up with lemons, so open a lemonade stand" could be the Jewish motto.

With similarities to Objectivism, the Jewish way, generally, has been Survive, and Flourish.

To do this, every person, and as a Culture, always had to take a hard look at the situation, identify values, and apply unyielding self-interest to their, and each person's, future.

Things like bombastic pride were dismissed by Jews as an indulgent luxury.

On the Palestinian side, I don't see, or have ever seen, any rational self-interest. This is the source of all of my frustration and confusion with them - it makes one want to shout at them "For God's sake, start thinking for yourselves!"

Look at what you do have, check your emotions in at the door, and start thinking about how to genuinely improve life.

Understand that this is zero to do with intelligence - I have a healthy respect for what Muslims can accomplish in all walks of life; it's to do with individualistic, rational selfishness.

If my vehemence on this subject has convinced you of my 'hatred', or any racial prejudice, then you have misunderstood me. I remain constantly baffled at how people undermine their own survival, their possible happiness, and their selves, while purportedly pursuing their own 'interests'.

Please consider this an olive branch (hell, a whole tree).

Tony

[BaalChatzaf]

To do this, every person, and as a Culture, always had to take a hard look at the situation, identify values, and apply unyielding self-interest to their, and each person's, future.

Things like bombastic pride were dismissed by Jews as an indulgent luxury.

Tony

Jews replaced bombastic pride by kvelling (a yiddish word). At a grandson's bar mitzvah or a grand daughters wedding we kvell. Its like pride, but it is not quite pride. It is joy in the happiness or accomplishment of the other.

Oh hell. You have to be there, to get it.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited January 30, 2010 by BaalChatzaf

[Leonid]

There are 3 main obstacles to comprehensive peace in the Middle East 1. Collectivism. 2 Mysticism. 3. Statism.

I don't say that Israel is completely free from these evils-no country in the world is-but Arabs feature them in much bigger extend than Jews. The real peace will never come as result of political agreement-politicians understand only too well, that everlasting peace and reduction of the state to its proper functions which is protection of people's inalienable rights against initiation of force, will render them useless. Peace will grow from the grass-root level, as result of direct interaction between people and change of dominant philosophy. The real battle is over people's minds and Internet is the battlefield.

[Selene]

Leonid:

The real peace will never come as result of political agreement-politicians understand only too well, that everlasting peace and reduction of the state to its proper functions which is protection of people's inalienable rights against initiation of force, will render them useless. Peace will grow from the grass-root level, as result of direct interaction between people and change of dominant philosophy. The real battle is over people's minds and Internet is the battlefield.

Very well put.

A similar, though less immediately deadly occurrence emerges from the mouths of our American political pigs regularly.

Typical example came out of the mouth of the Porker in Chief obiwan the diminishing was that the stimulus monies saved the jobs of teachers, police and firefighters.

Really, so all of the non-essential employees at city hall and the town clerks office were laid off first and that these monies saved essential people?

Well...no.

The State will preserve and protect itself.

Good post

Adam

[anthony]

This olive branch I've been holding is getting kinda withered.

I must assume that Adonis has retired from this discussion, and has not changed his views an iota.

Israel = military occupation.

I'm also certain that the barrage of facts that he was exposed to here don't fit his preconceptions as conveniently as his own, and have made his position untenable.

When asked on the right of Israel to exist at the start, Adonis' reply was "No".

I should have believed him.

[Libertarian Muslim]

This olive branch I've been holding is getting kinda withered.

I must assume that Adonis has retired from this discussion, and has not changed his views an iota.

Israel = military occupation.

I'm also certain that the barrage of facts that he was exposed to here don't fit his preconceptions as conveniently as his own, and have made his position untenable.

When asked on the right of Israel to exist at the start, Adonis' reply was "No".

I should have believed him.

Barrage of facts my foot..

Before you start giving more narratives, perhaps you should first ask why I haven't responded..

Maybe I haven't responded because I am incredibly busy in my preparations for university plus my work in addition to many other community things I'm involved in.. This thread is not a priority for me because it has nothing to do with Islam and is more of a political issue and so I don't respond very often..

Funny though, the Israeli Government and settlers have torn down half a million olive trees in Palestine in the last few years and all you're offering to give back just a branch?

That's very typical of Israeli policy, take everything and offer only a small amount as a peace offering and expecting that to be sufficient..

Just like what is technically left of the West Bank in terms of what the Palestinians have and this is being made smaller and smaller every day by the settlers and Israeli military.. ..

My view is staying the same. There was no right to create the state and therefore it is a military occupation and has no right to 'exist' and thus, the Palestinians have the right to resist the occupation of their land.

There must be a fair peace agreement immediately to establish a Palestinian state and give legitimacy to Israel as a state and end 60 years of war.. Enough is enough..

And sure, if you don't want a fair peace agreement that's fine.. But Israel won't last forever, it's internal policies will collapse the state within another 60 years and the world is slowly turning against Israel after seeing their barbaric actions against the Palestinians..

So if the tables one day turn and Israel somehow loses military superiority yet still refuses to give a just peace to the Palestinians then war will be the only answer and then I'd support war against the occupation and the expulsion of all Zionists from Palestine if they refuse to live in a state that guarantees the rights of all people in that land as a one state solution..

They can go back to Europe and let them take some of the land of the Germans and Italians, they were responsible for the Holocaust, not the Palestinians.

[jeffrey smith]

Adonis--

What you don't seem to understand is that it is your side that is being barbaric and denying the rights of others.

If all the Palestinians seem to offer is suicide bombs and rocket attacks, why should Israel do anything? Why should it not try to extirpate an organization whose prime goal is kill all the Jews it can and drive out the rest (meaning both Fatah and Hamas)?

The Palestinians don't want a just peace. To them, if a single Jew remains in Tel Aviv, that's "occupied Palestine". If they did, Hamas and the terrorists wouldn't have such a power base among the Palestinians.

As long as the Palestinians don't want peace, there is no motivation for Israel to do anything other than what it is doing.

war will be the only answer and then I'd support war against the occupation and the expulsion of all Zionists from Palestine if they refuse to live in a state that guarantees the rights of all people in that land as a one state solution..

Unfortunately for your argument, it's not the Israelis who don't want a state that guarantees the rights of all people in the Holy Land--it's the Palestinians. The sooner you face that fact, the better off you will be. The sooner the world acknowledges that fact, the better off the world will be.

Jeffrey S.

[anthony]

Jeffrey, you say : "... it's not the Israelis who don't want a state that guarantees the rights of all people in the Holy Land - it's the Palestinians."

and,

"As long as the Palestinians don't want peace there is no motivation for Israel to do anything other than what it is doing."

There are facts, and there are truths - this one should be engraved in stone.

I have also been pointing out to AV that Hamas has been making it as difficult as possible for Israel to make peace. He can't and won't entertain this notion; to do so would be to admit that the majority of Palestinians are fuelled by hatred and pride, and their leaders are cynical, tyrannous, men.

At risk of inviting another 'ad hominem' from AV, my heart goes out to those Palestinians - the minority - who have a clear idea of the way forward, and DO want reconciliation.

But are intimidated into silence by their 'brothers'.

Tony

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis--

What you don't seem to understand is that it is your side that is being barbaric and denying the rights of others.

If all the Palestinians seem to offer is suicide bombs and rocket attacks, why should Israel do anything? Why should it not try to extirpate an organization whose prime goal is kill all the Jews it can and drive out the rest (meaning both Fatah and Hamas)?

The Palestinians don't want a just peace. To them, if a single Jew remains in Tel Aviv, that's "occupied Palestine". If they did, Hamas and the terrorists wouldn't have such a power base among the Palestinians.

As long as the Palestinians don't want peace, there is no motivation for Israel to do anything other than what it is doing.

war will be the only answer and then I'd support war against the occupation and the expulsion of all Zionists from Palestine if they refuse to live in a state that guarantees the rights of all people in that land as a one state solution..

Unfortunately for your argument, it's not the Israelis who don't want a state that guarantees the rights of all people in the Holy Land--it's the Palestinians. The sooner you face that fact, the better off you will be. The sooner the world acknowledges that fact, the better off the world will be.

Jeffrey S.

Oh please, what utter nonsense and rubbish.. What just peace offer has Israel offered the Palestinians?

Hamas has stuck to the ceasefires they've agreed to and also offered Israel peace and recognition as a state, what has Israel offered the Palestinians other than blockades, assassinations, incursions and bombing?

How typical of the Zionists to put all the blame on the Palestinians when it is the Zionists themselves who clearly don't want a just peace.. They don't even want the Palestinians who were forced out of their homes since Israel's creation to come back and be Israelis and yet you claim they want to grant all citizens equal rights.. Preposterous..

[Leonid]

Adonis: "There must be a fair peace agreement immediately to establish a Palestinian state and give legitimacy to Israel as a state and end 60 years of war... Enough is enough...”

And what kind of peace agreement in your opinion would be fair? Was UN resolution in 1947 to create Arab and Jewish state in Palestine fair enough? Apparently not, since Arab States flatly refused to accept it-they needed all Palestine to divide between them. Jews in their opinion could go back to Germany, to be stateless prosecuted minority as Adonis suggests. Then in 1967 Nasser decided that even that is too good for Jews and they should go straight to the sea. Israel again defeated Arab aggression and, after victory offered to return all territories which Israel acquired in the process of defensive war. The only thing Israel asked in exchange was peace. Not fair enough! Arabs answered with 3 big NO: No to recognition of Israel, No to negotiations, No to peace. (See Khartoum conference).In 1979 Anwar Saadat signed peace agreement with Israel. Again not good enough. Saadat paid with his life. Egypt maintains cold peace and very hot anti-Jewish propaganda mainly imported from Nazi Germany. In the year 2000 Ehud Barak, Israeli Prime Minister offered to Arafat ALL TERRITORIES including East Jerusalem. Not fair at all! Arafat refused and started intifada. His suicide bombers killed hundreds of innocent people-Jews and Arabs. In 2007 Israel withdrew from Gaza strip, dismantled 9 prosperous settlements and forcible removed thousands of Jewish settlers who lived there for more than 30 years. Was it fair? Obviously not. Otherwise why such a peace loving organization as Hamas would kick off Abu Mazen (Mahmood Abbas) and his terrorist “freedom fighters” from Gaza, take over the strip and establish the reign of terror against Israel and their own people? It seems that for people like Arafat, Khaleed Meshall or Adonis nothing is fair enough except summary collective suicide of Israel. I'd like to assure Adonis and others of that ilk that this is not going to happen. Israel is here to stay. And not because military but moral superiority. Israel means peace, prosperity, freedom, development and happiness not only to Jews but to all people of Middle East. And shukr Allah, people of Middle East, unlike Adonis, start to understand that.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Leonid

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Adonis,

If we are going to do size perception for underdog emotional appeal, it is only fair to include another angle:

The little red thingie is Israel.

Michael

[Leonid]

Adonis said "So if the tables one day turn and Israel somehow loses military superiority yet still refuses to give a just peace to the Palestinians then war will be the only answer and then I'd support war against the occupation and the expulsion of all Zionists from Palestine if they refuse to live in a state that guarantees the rights of all people in that land as a one state solution.."

Does Hamas garantee it? Do you know what is happening to Arab political dissenters in the Hamas nail factory? Besides, you support two-state solution.

"They can go back to Europe and let them take some of the land of the Germans and Italians, they were responsible for the Holocaust, not the Palestinians."

Here is a small quatrain (rubai) written by Abu Ali ibn Sina, great Muslim philosopher and physician. He lived in 10th century but managed to write this piece as a direct response to Adonis.

"When you're with donkey in the mosque

Who thinks he’s clever more than most

Make donkey from yourself as well

Before he calls you infidel"

Abu Ali Ibn Sina (980-1037).

I'm sure, nobody could call Adonis an infidel.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Leonid

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

By the way, Hamas is losing the American left by broadcasting really low-level anti-Semitic cartoons to children. Here is a recent lampoon by Jon Stewart called: Story Hole - Children's Cartoons From Hamas.

<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='360' height='353'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com'>The Daily Show With Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'<a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-february-2-2010/story-hole---children-s-cartoons-from-hamas'>Story Hole - Children's Cartoons From Hamas<a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:360px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>www.thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:263344' width='360' height='301' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes'>Daily Show<br/> Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com'>Political Humor</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/videos/tag/health'>Health Care Crisis</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

I merely happened across this yesterday changing channels on TV. Today I looked it up on the Internet and it's all over the place, even on left wing places. These are bastions of Palestinian support of the anti-Israel-lobby kind in the USA.

Hamas has to stop this crap and there is no justification for it.

None.

These are programs for children.

As balance, on a comment given on the Comedy Central site where the video is, a Palestinian sympathizer complained and said there were similar racist cartoons from the other side. He gave the link to Ahmed and Salim.

I looked it up and looked at a couple and yes, they are tasteless. These are some South Park like animations made by two young Israelis: Tom Trager (21 years old) and Or Paz (20 years old). The real difference I see, though, is that these are not broadcast on TV (they are on a private Internet site and on a YouTube channel) and they are not broadcast by the Israeli government.

They are even bashed in Israel. Here is an entry from a very popular Israeli blog: Ahmed and Salim – Israeli satire stretches the limits of taste. From that article:

According to Ynet, Paz and Trager hope to eventually be able to turn the series into a television production, but admit that so far no one has made them an offer to this effect.

I don't expect it to become a TV show, either.

I will let the readers see these things and judge for themselves.

I will say, though, that Paz and Trager do harm to the Israeli side and Hamas is damaging its case so badly that it is losing its American supporters.

Another thought. These people do these things because they want to, not because they have to. They should be judged accordingly.

Michael

[Selene]

Ok - Leonid -

And you read what into that awful piece of "poetry"?

Adam

[Robert Campbell]

The little red thingie is Israel.

Michael

Michael,

I'm not sure where you got the map of the Islamic world that you posted.

Whoever made it got a little carried away painting countries green. How many Muslims are there in Sri Lanka (shown as solid green, just like the Maldives, which really are mostly Muslim)? The Muslims in the Philippines pretty much live on one island. And it's not as though all Ghanaians, Ivorians, Liberians, and so on, are Muslim, which is what the map seems to be saying.

Meanwhile, the map-maker forgot the Muslims in Albania, Macedonia, Kosovo, and Bosnia. And colored Yemen green (which it should be) while annexing it to Sa'udi Arabia.

All the same, the green area is truly vast, and the red isn't.

Robert Campbell

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Robert,

It came up on a Google search (see here). I admit to playing a bit for dramatic effect. But I was addressing dramatic effect, so I responded with it. At these moments, precision tends to go out the window (on all sides).

I probably should have used this one, or maybe the ones on the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs site.

But they didn't do it the way the other one did.

Am I starting to be seduced into the irrationality of this conflict?

Michael

[Selene]

Let's annex Israel and make it the 51st State or we could trade it straight up for Vermont!

Adam

Always building bridges to the Middle East

[jeffrey smith]

Oh please, what utter nonsense and rubbish.. What just peace offer has Israel offered the Palestinians?

Hamas has stuck to the ceasefires they've agreed to and also offered Israel peace and recognition as a state, what has Israel offered the Palestinians other than blockades, assassinations, incursions and bombing?

How typical of the Zionists to put all the blame on the Palestinians when it is the Zionists themselves who clearly don't want a just peace.. They don't even want the Palestinians who were forced out of their homes since Israel's creation to come back and be Israelis and yet you claim they want to grant all citizens equal rights.. Preposterous..

First off, to say that Hamas has offered Israel peace and recognition as a state is absolute rubbish. Hamas' entire goal, stated time and time again, is the elimination of Israel, and the destruction of the Jews of Israel, either by killing them or expelling them or minimum subjugating them as second class citizens in a Palestine governed according to Hamas' version of shariah--the version of shariah you yourself have criticized fairly severely as not "real Islam" or words to that effect. The Hamas version of a truce is not a real truce: it's simply a pause to rearm itself.

Nor have the Palestinians outside Hamas done very much in the way of offering peace. Take the Barak-Arafat negotions in which Barak offered, according to the Israeli version, almost everything that the Palestinians said they wanted. The Palestinian version is that the Israeli version was much less than that. Perhaps it was much less than ballyhooed. But the important point about those negotiations is not what Barak offered, nor even what Arafat rejected: what is important is that Arafat had no counteroffer to make. He simply rejected it, walked away and started the intifada. Had Arafat been truly interested in peace, he would have a plan of his own ready to propose. It's quite possible that Israel would have rejected it--but there was no Palestinian proposal at all, so a possible rejection by Israel is irrelevant. Arafat had no real interest in peace.

You may have heard of Hanan Ashrawi. I don't know what's become of her lately, but around 2000 she was very much on the American airwaves in the role of a Palestinian moderate. She made the appropriate noises about living in peace with Israel as a desirable thing, but in the next breath she would defend suicide bombing aimed at civilians--the sort of thing Hamas and Islamic Jihad specialized in at that time--as morally justified. I know that you don't do that, but that's an illustration of what a "responsible moderate" among the Palestinians thought. Such a person is not actually interested in living in peace with Israel, despite all the pretty words they may say. Perhaps she was fooling herself, but she wouldn't have fooled anyone who actually paid attention to her words.

Why do Israelis oppose the "right of return" to be exercised by the Palestinians? Because they know that the Palestinian idea of return involves the destruction of Israel and the expulsion of those Israeli Jews who are not killed and do not meekly agree to second class citizenship.

You will notice if you go back and read my posts in this thread that while I have defended what Israel did and does in Gaza as a necessary means of self defense in dealing with an entity (Hamas ruled Gaza) with which it is at war, I haven't said anything in defense of what Israel is doing in the West Bank. There is a lot there that I think Israel is doing wrong--most importantly, the whole settlements policy--mixed in with some justifiable measures. The Wall and the roadblocks are necessary measures in dealing with a a community that has repeatedly resorted to suicide bombing and other terrorist attacks against the civilian population not only in the West Bank but in Israel proper. And the fact that they are necessary is proved by the fact that suicide bombing and most other forms of attacks originating in the West Bank against Israel proper have fallen off dramatically--just about to zero. Attacks when they do come seem to originate mostly inside Israel proper or against West Bank settlements. But I'm not going to defend most of what you complain about in reference to the West Bank. My aim at the moment is different.

What I'm trying to do is to make clear to you that if you oppose a political entity that is racist and suppressed individual liberties, than you had better oppose not just Israel but also the Palestinians as they are presently organized, and as their leaders want them to be. The Palestinians want a racist state in which Jews, if allowed at all, are distinctly second class citizens. In fact, for the most part, since they subscribe to a large degree to the concept of the dhimmi as it developed in traditional Islamic society, they want to make all non Moslems second class citizens. They make no effort to guarantee political freedoms among themselves. In fact, an Arab under Israeli rule, even with the roadblocks and military arrests and the rest, has more personal freedom than he would have in PLO ruled areas. Palestinian society is not some peaceloving community yearning to live freely and at peace with neighbors who respect its freedom, with all members of society enjoying full personal liberty; it is racist and violence-oriented and unwilling to make peace with Israel. You may be right that Israel should enjoy no moral respect from the rest of the world, but you should understand that by the same yardstick,the Palestinians should also enjoy no moral respect.