The Israeli-Palestinian issue

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis :- "Let's not forget that the Palestinians themselves voted Hamas in as their government."

Which says what to you, exactly?

For me it proves that the Palestinians are adhering to belligerence as their 'solution'. How else do you read it?

Belligerence? Oh please.. Their land is occupied.. They have a right to resist..

Hamas has backed a two state solution with Israel. It's Israel that doesn't want it.

The Arab Peace Initiative which has the backing of the Arab league entails that the Arabs will:

I- Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region.

II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.

In return for:

I- Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the June 4, 1967 lines as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.

II- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

III- The acceptance of the establishment of a sovereign independent Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital.

This agreement has been offered to Israel for 7 years now. Why don't they take it? It's not unreasonable at all.

Has Hamas (excuse me, the Government) shown itself to be a responsible representative of their citizens? And you are defending it?

As soon as Hamas was elected it was put under sanctions by the US government who along with the Israeli government then tried to organize the Fatah militias of the PLO to launch attacks, including hundreds of Fatah militants from Isreali jails and arming them to the teeth, then sending them into the Gaza strip to launch attacks. They also put a siege on the Gaza strip so that the Palestinians could barely get any food into it and children were and continue to be suffering from malnutrition and other problems as a result.

And why?

Because the Palestinians decided that they wanted to elect a government in that they preferred.

And yet you wonder why the Palestinians are fighting back.

Adonis, it's a crying shame to me that a Muslim, as reasonable and accomodating as you've shown in the other thread, reverts to the usual prejudices, on Israel.

The "Zionists" tag, is a dead give away; they happen to be Jews, and Israelis. What is the distinction, in your mind? To all intents and purposes, there is no longer a Zionist, anywhere.

Drop the slogans, and argue the facts and morality.

No, there still are Zionists.. There are many non-Zionist Jews and many non-Jewish Zionists, they aren't the same thing. Stop trying to make this about Jews when it simply isn't about that.

Israel has no designs on Palestine; if they are granted peace, they will return the favour - to the mutual benefit of all.

Israel exists; get used to it.

Tony

They've been offered peace many times, like the Arab Peace initiative.. They refuse to accept it..

In fact even when the Palestinians that they'd make a unilateral declaration of their statehood and ask the UN to back it recently they were threatened with war by the Israelis. So what are they to do? They have a good offer of peace for the Israeli government and the Israelis are not accepting it..

What do you suggest to fix the problem?

[Libertarian Muslim]

They never will. The very existence of Jews is an affront to their religion.

Ba'al Chatzaf

If that were the case, we would have wiped them off of the face of the earth instead of protecting them from the Europeans when they were being persecuted there.

We're obligated in Islam to protect the People of the Book which includes the Jews.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I find it imprecise to say "we" and "you" in such broad terms.

This is vastly oversimplifying identification, current issues and history.

And I'm not bothered by this poster or that, either. It seems like all discussions of this nature brings out the oversimplifications in most everybody.

Jews are saints only.

Muslims are saints only.

All Jews do this...

All Muslims do this...

All Jews think this...

All Muslims think this...

None of this is true.

What's weird is that people say these things even as they claim they are not true in a different context.

This is one of the reasons I reject any standard that does not include the character of the individual.

When I oversimplify, it goes something like this:

All bullies are bad.

All bigots are bad.

Character-based things like that.

I sometimes ask myself, am I unfair with bigots and bullies at times?

Probably...

Am I sorry?

No...

Michael

[jeffrey smith]

Adonis :- "Let's not forget that the Palestinians themselves voted Hamas in as their government."

Which says what to you, exactly?

For me it proves that the Palestinians are adhering to belligerence as their 'solution'. How else do you read it?

Belligerence? Oh please.. Their land is occupied.. They have a right to resist..

Hamas has backed a two state solution with Israel. It's Israel that doesn't want it.

The Arab Peace Initiative which has the backing of the Arab league entails that the Arabs will:

I- Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region.

II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.

In return for:

I- Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the June 4, 1967 lines as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.

II- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

III- The acceptance of the establishment of a sovereign independent Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital.

This agreement has been offered to Israel for 7 years now. Why don't they take it? It's not unreasonable at all.

Has Hamas (excuse me, the Government) shown itself to be a responsible representative of their citizens? And you are defending it?

As soon as Hamas was elected it was put under sanctions by the US government who along with the Israeli government then tried to organize the Fatah militias of the PLO to launch attacks, including hundreds of Fatah militants from Isreali jails and arming them to the teeth, then sending them into the Gaza strip to launch attacks. They also put a siege on the Gaza strip so that the Palestinians could barely get any food into it and children were and continue to be suffering from malnutrition and other problems as a result.

And why?

Because the Palestinians decided that they wanted to elect a government in that they preferred.

And yet you wonder why the Palestinians are fighting back.

Adonis, it's a crying shame to me that a Muslim, as reasonable and accomodating as you've shown in the other thread, reverts to the usual prejudices, on Israel.

The "Zionists" tag, is a dead give away; they happen to be Jews, and Israelis. What is the distinction, in your mind? To all intents and purposes, there is no longer a Zionist, anywhere.

Drop the slogans, and argue the facts and morality.

No, there still are Zionists.. There are many non-Zionist Jews and many non-Jewish Zionists, they aren't the same thing. Stop trying to make this about Jews when it simply isn't about that.

Israel has no designs on Palestine; if they are granted peace, they will return the favour - to the mutual benefit of all.

Israel exists; get used to it.

Tony

They've been offered peace many times, like the Arab Peace initiative.. They refuse to accept it..

In fact even when the Palestinians that they'd make a unilateral declaration of their statehood and ask the UN to back it recently they were threatened with war by the Israelis. So what are they to do? They have a good offer of peace for the Israeli government and the Israelis are not accepting it..

What do you suggest to fix the problem?

Adonis, for your information:

Hamas's explicit goal is to kill as many Jews as possible, expel as much of the remainder as they can from Israel, and force the remainder into second class citizenship under the guise of sharia law.

Go read their charter, and listen to the propaganda they broadcast to their followers in Gaza, if you don't believe me.

If that's not racism and genocidal intention, what is?

And since the people of Gaza freely chose to be governed by a group that denies all the foundations of civilized morality, why should they be allowed to benefit from the civilized morality whose benefits they would deny to the Jews across the border in Israel?

The racist state of Israel, meanwhile, allows its non Jewish citizens full rights, including the right of publicizing the times when they don't get equal treatment, and the right to force the government to give them equal treatment. Those non Jewish citizens, in fact, can expect to live with less government interference in their lives and with more political freedom than any Arab can in most of the Mideast with the exceptions being Jordan and Morocco (and even in those countries there is sometimes less political freedom allowed).

Why was Syria so crime free? Because it has a dictator for a government, that's why.

Moreover the Arab Peace Initiative is mostly a propaganda exercise. If seriously implemented, a just and rightful solution in Arab eyes would result in the mass return of Palestinians to their family properties in what is now Israel and the transformation of Israel into an Arab dominated state confined to borders that would leave it ill prepared to defend itself against aggression by its neighbors. (I mean, we all know that Arab countries never aggress against other Arab countries in all of Moslem history.) In other words, it's not really an offer of peace.

Jeffrey S.

[Leonid]

Adonis:"I believe the matter of Zionism and Israel to be about justice and racism. I would be overwhelmed with joy if Israel were to just accept the Arab Peace Initiative which I believe is fair and just as a two state solution."

Why you think that two state solution is fair and just? Have you ever visited Israel or at least looked on the map? On what principle you justify separation of people on the ethnical or religious ground? That would be racism and apartheid. Why do you think that Jews and Arabs who,as you yourself noted, are almost identical in language, culture and religion cannot peacefully co-exist in one free and democratic state as 800000 Israeli Arabs do?

Nothing justifies separating the land based on ethnic or religious grounds. But I'm not the one who wanted it in the first place, it was the Zionists who wanted to create their state based on those lines. That is WHY it is Racism and Apartheid.

You proved my point.

And what in your opinion is the difference between Israeli Arabs who are Israeli citizens and Palestinians who are not? As a matter of fact they are the same people in everything except citizenship. And most importantly, why do you want to submit Palestinian people to the corrupt dictatorial rule of PLO or brute Wakhabist rule of Hamas?

There is no difference between them other than citizenship.

I don't want to submit the Palestinian people to the PLO. Also, Hamas isn't Wahhabi. In fact they don't like Wahhabis at all.

Let's not forget the Palestinians themselves voted Hamas in as their government.

[Libertarian Muslim]

Hamas's explicit goal is to kill as many Jews as possible, expel as much of the remainder as they can from Israel, and force the remainder into second class citizenship under the guise of sharia law.

Actually, it's not the intention of Hamas to kill as many Jews as possible, also if it were, why would there be a need to 'force the remainder into second class citizenship'?

Go read their charter, and listen to the propaganda they broadcast to their followers in Gaza, if you don't believe me.

If that's not racism and genocidal intention, what is?

I've read the charter, I've watched and listened to the broadcasts. I'm not saying I like Hamas nor do I want them to govern the Palestinians. But what alternative are you giving the Palestinians? The corrupt PLO?

The only way groups like Hamas can have any influence, is by having an outside enemy like Israel or the US. The Palestinians want justice. Give them a state and some justice and you'll see. Groups like Hamas will be out of the picture quicker than you could have ever imagined.

And since the people of Gaza freely chose to be governed by a group that denies all the foundations of civilized morality, why should they be allowed to benefit from the civilized morality whose benefits they would deny to the Jews across the border in Israel?

Hamas want peace and have backed the idea of a two state solution. So why would they bother?

The racist state of Israel, meanwhile, allows its non Jewish citizens full rights, including the right of publicizing the times when they don't get equal treatment, and the right to force the government to give them equal treatment. Those non Jewish citizens, in fact, can expect to live with less government interference in their lives and with more political freedom than any Arab can in most of the Mideast with the exceptions being Jordan and Morocco (and even in those countries there is sometimes less political freedom allowed).

No, Arabs in Israel are treated like second class citizens.

Why was Syria so crime free? Because it has a dictator for a government, that's why.

No, that's not the reason why it's crime free at all. Are you saying that the only way to stay that crime free is to have a police state watching over the people constantly?

Moreover the Arab Peace Initiative is mostly a propaganda exercise. If seriously implemented, a just and rightful solution in Arab eyes would result in the mass return of Palestinians to their family properties in what is now Israel and the transformation of Israel into an Arab dominated state confined to borders that would leave it ill prepared to defend itself against aggression by its neighbors. (I mean, we all know that Arab countries never aggress against other Arab countries in all of Moslem history.) In other words, it's not really an offer of peace.

The Arabs are willing to negotiate regarding the refugees returning home so as to not take the Jewish identity away from Israel.

Please refer to the part of the agreement where it states:

For the first time, the Arab world commits itself to an AGREED solution to the refugee problem, thus addressing Israel’s concern that the demographic character of the Jewish state not be threatened. To be sure, the initiative calls for achieving a just solution of the problem in accordance with UNGA Resolution 194, but it points out that the implementation of that resolution has to be agreed. The key point here is that Arabs understand well that the implementation has to be both fair and realistic, and certainly agreed upon. In other words, there is no possibility of a solution that will lead to the changing of the character of the Jewish state."

The goal is to provide a fair solution, not to overwhelm the Israeli Jews with more Arabs. The exact number of Arabs returning to Israel isn't a number that you or I could give, the number must be agreed upon through negotiation between the Arabs and Israelis themselves.

Now regarding security? Israel has more than 200 nuclear weapons and maintains one of the most advanced militaries in the world. There is no real threat to Israel in the region at all.

However, in the interest of creating a lasting peace, no one would blame Israel for taking the peace initiative in steps, the Palestinians would also do the same. Israel could keep giant walls surrounding itself and the peace could be reached over a number of years in stages through a comprehensive truce over a period of months or years and then a proper peace agreed upon. All it requires though is the Israelis to accept that.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[Leonid]

Adonis "But I'm not the one who wanted it in the first place, it was the Zionists who wanted to create their state based on those lines. That is WHY it is Racism and Apartheid."

Actually, not.. Israel has been created as home for Jews and Arabs. " THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations...WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions." (THE DECLARATION OF THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL May 14, 1948). Unfortunately this appeal has been rejected by Palestinian Arabs and all Arab States. It still rejected by them even today. Two-state solution which is racism and apartheid and which you support is American and Arab initiative. As a matter of fact we have to deal today with three-state solution-Israel, West Bank and Gaza. Also, Israeli Arabs today represent majority in the Northern Israel. According to the current political trend they are also entitled to their own State. That would be four-state solution. The one glance on the map will prove the total absurdity of this idea from the geo-political point of view. From the philosophical point of view nation has the right for self-determination only if it strives to achieve freedom from oppression and prosecution. I don't say that Israel is epitome of freedom, it is mixed economy. But it is much better than oppressive regime of PLO or religious fanaticism of Hamas. The fact that Palestinians themselves voted for them doesn't justify their atrocities. Hitler also had been democratically elected.

[Libertarian Muslim]

Actually, not.. Israel has been created as home for Jews and Arabs. " THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations...WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions." (THE DECLARATION OF THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL May 14, 1948). Unfortunately this appeal has been rejected by Palestinian Arabs and all Arab States. It still rejected by them even today. Two-state solution which is racism and apartheid and which you support is American and Arab initiative. As a matter of fact we have to deal today with three-state solution-Israel, West Bank and Gaza. Also, Israeli Arabs today represent majority in the Northern Israel. According to the current political trend they are also entitled to their own State. That would be four-state solution. The one glance on the map will prove the total absurdity of this idea from the geo-political point of view. From the philosophical point of view nation has the right for self-determination only if it strives to achieve freedom from oppression and prosecution. I don't say that Israel is epitome of freedom, it is mixed economy. But it is much better than oppressive regime of PLO or religious fanaticism of Hamas. The fact that Palestinians themselves voted for them doesn't justify their atrocities. Hitler also had been democratically elected.

I'm sorry, but Israel is in no way a home for Jews and Arabs, I mean the racial and religious identity of the state, regardless of what the declaration states at that point are clearly Jewish and I mean how would you feel being made to sing a national anthem of how great it is being Arab or Muslim or Christian? Your flag a giant crescent or cross? It doesn't sound very inclusive to me. And it isn't very inclusive, Arabs are treated like second class citizens in Israel. One example you can look at is the fact that Arab-Israelis are legally forbidden from purchasing much of the majority for sale because they are not Jewish, and you call that equal?

It has always been my position to support a one state solution there. An identity of the state not based on religious or ethnic lines, rather based on the identity of all citizens being human beings, equal in rights and free to practice their religions as they pleased (or didn't please). If someone wants to live under and be accountable to Islamic or Jewish law, then so be it, if however they choose to live under regular civil law, then that's fine too.

Unfortunately however, due to the last 60 years of hostility the above is impractical. Therefore, for the foreseeable future I do support a two state solution that allows both nations that are obviously quite suspicious of each other to build their nations up in peace, taking care of their people's primary needs first and over time, build their relationship up to be so strong that they don't need walls to separate each other, nor watch towers etc and can freely mix amongst each other.. And God Willing, when such a day does come that Palestinians and Israelis see each others as brothers once more, and vote through referendum to reunify as one nation, then I'll be happy.. But these things take time and require it to be done in stages.

Also, I'm sorry but comparing Israel to other Arab nations for the purposes of demonstrating freedom isn't really a good standard. I'm the first to call these places police states and dictatorships.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Adonis,

I support 2 states. I don't see a real need for a final one state. People in a bad marriage can often be good friends once the marriage is over, and they would make a mistake to get married again.

I also support statutes of limitations.

The devil is in the details.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Actually, not.. Israel has been created as home for Jews and Arabs. " THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations...WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions." (THE DECLARATION OF THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL May 14, 1948). Unfortunately this appeal has been rejected by Palestinian Arabs and all Arab States. It still rejected by them even today. Two-state solution which is racism and apartheid and which you support is American and Arab initiative. As a matter of fact we have to deal today with three-state solution-Israel, West Bank and Gaza. Also, Israeli Arabs today represent majority in the Northern Israel. According to the current political trend they are also entitled to their own State. That would be four-state solution. The one glance on the map will prove the total absurdity of this idea from the geo-political point of view. From the philosophical point of view nation has the right for self-determination only if it strives to achieve freedom from oppression and prosecution. I don't say that Israel is epitome of freedom, it is mixed economy. But it is much better than oppressive regime of PLO or religious fanaticism of Hamas. The fact that Palestinians themselves voted for them doesn't justify their atrocities. Hitler also had been democratically elected.

I'm sorry, but Israel is in no way a home for Jews and Arabs, I mean the racial and religious identity of the state, regardless of what the declaration states at that point are clearly Jewish and I mean how would you feel being made to sing a national anthem of how great it is being Arab or Muslim or Christian? Your flag a giant crescent or cross? It doesn't sound very inclusive to me. And it isn't very inclusive, Arabs are treated like second class citizens in Israel. One example you can look at is the fact that Arab-Israelis are legally forbidden from purchasing much of the majority for sale because they are not Jewish, and you call that equal?

It has always been my position to support a one state solution there. An identity of the state not based on religious or ethnic lines, rather based on the identity of all citizens being human beings, equal in rights and free to practice their religions as they pleased (or didn't please). If someone wants to live under and be accountable to Islamic or Jewish law, then so be it, if however they choose to live under regular civil law, then that's fine too.

Unfortunately however, due to the last 60 years of hostility the above is impractical. Therefore, for the foreseeable future I do support a two state solution that allows both nations that are obviously quite suspicious of each other to build their nations up in peace, taking care of their people's primary needs first and over time, build their relationship up to be so strong that they don't need walls to separate each other, nor watch towers etc and can freely mix amongst each other.. And God Willing, when such a day does come that Palestinians and Israelis see each others as brothers once more, and vote through referendum to reunify as one nation, then I'll be happy.. But these things take time and require it to be done in stages.

Also, I'm sorry but comparing Israel to other Arab nations for the purposes of demonstrating freedom isn't really a good standard. I'm the first to call these places police states and dictatorships.

Okay. Let's make Israel the 51st state of the United States!

--Brant

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis,

I support 2 states. I don't see a real need for a final one state. People in a bad marriage can often be good friends once the marriage is over, and they would make a mistake to get married again.

I also support statutes of limitations.

The devil is in the details.

Michael

Michael, I do agree.. I'd be more than happy with a two state solution that stayed as two states if the relationship between Israel and the Arab states got to the stage that an Israeli could happily shop in Damascus and a Syrian could shop in Haifa..

[Libertarian Muslim]

Okay. Let's make Israel the 51st state of the United States!

--Brant

I wish :-P

If that happened and the US actually stuck to the constitution in terms of how it was run, I'd support that in a heart beat, heck I'd move there tomorrow.

In my opinion, the US as created and intended by the Founding Fathers in my opinion is the closest thing to an 'Islamic' State in the world.

[anthony]

Adonis, your naivety (that's what I think it is) is most disarming.

If the time ever came that one half of the solution you are proposing came to pass, you, and all the other well-meaning Muslims will be swept aside by the rush to eliminate Israel, by the other 90% of Arabs. This is why those compromises you are suggesting will not be made by Israel; they understand the Muslim mentality deeply.

Here's the difference - intrinsically - between the Arab and the Jew. The Jew celebrates and values every life, his own, and others, which also puts him at a massive disadvantage... because the Arab celebrates honour more than life.

Therefore, the Palestinians can wait.

(I make no apologies for this collectivist/racist judgment. If a people or an individual consistently act collectively, then in the end they must be assessed so, imo.)

For generation, after generation, the hatred will be passed on from father to son, each and every life wasted in the fulfilment of just one task - vengeance for the humiliation that they suffered by being bested by mere Jews. Israel knows this, and fears this terrible patience.

---------

What part of Israel coming into being LEGALLY, don't you understand?

What part of Israel being the victor in all the wars the Arabs threw at them; and acting, (viewed impartially), mainly, as a very benevolent victor, don't you understand?

What part of "Never Again!", don't you understand?

The Palestinian, deserted by all Arab nations who got them into this mess, now must think for himself, and conduct himself rationally and self-responsibly, by making unilateral and independent peace proposals to Israel.

(Removing all 'elimination' clauses from the Charters of their organisations would be a good start. )

Or is the ignominy of doing this too much for them?

You say "Hamas wants peace.." That's a sick joke. By circumstance and immoral leadership, Gaza is in a 'nothing to lose' situation, and is behaving that way. Israel wants peace - she has vastly more to lose - but not at any cost.

If one reasonable and thoughtful Muslim does not get this, then there's no hope, ever. It's a crying shame.

Tony

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis, your naivety (that's what I think it is) is most disarming.

If the time ever came that one half of the solution you are proposing came to pass, you, and all the other well-meaning Muslims will be swept aside by the rush to eliminate Israel, by the other 90% of Arabs. This is why those compromises you are suggesting will not be made by Israel; they understand the Muslim mentality deeply.

You see, that's where you're wrong. I think this is a typical attitude of aggressors who are guilty of crimes similar to that of the Zionists and European Colonialists, to believe that their victims have such a deep and seething hate that they would never be able to live peacefully with or near the people who once harmed them and so fear granting those rights. People feared emancipating African Americans for this reason and yes, we saw the same thing in South Africa, where all of the Europeans who oppressed the Africans during Apartheid thought that if the Africans ever got into power, that they'd exact vengeance on the Europeans and massacre them all. Perhaps you would do that if you were in that situation Tony, but thankfully, not all people are like you.

The Arabs, contrary to what you believe are not like that. Rather they just want to get on with their own lives, they're tired and just want it resolved, that is precisely why they've offered the Arab Peace Initiative. It's a huge compromise and very reasonable.

Plus, Israel has its 200+ Nuclear weapons as guarantee of that doesn't it?

Here's the difference - intrinsically - between the Arab and the Jew. The Jew celebrates and values every life, his own, and others, which also puts him at a massive disadvantage... because the Arab celebrates honour more than life.

Therefore, the Palestinians can wait.

(I make no apologies for this collectivist/racist judgment. If a people or an individual consistently act collectively, then in the end they must be assessed so, imo.)

For generation, after generation, the hatred will be passed on from father to son, each and every life wasted in the fulfilment of just one task - vengeance for the humiliation that they suffered by being bested by mere Jews. Israel knows this, and fears this terrible patience.

Again, I think you reflect on the capacity of hate that you have inside yourself and believe that all people are capable of this. Perhaps if the Palestinians had the chance to enjoy their lives in their own state, to build their nation up and who's inalienable rights to liberty, justice and the pursuit of happiness were given to them they focus on the good things like Israelis get the chance to do, they would do the same. But no one gives them that.. They've been a people without a state for now over 60 years and their only way to gain justice for them is through trying to get it for themselves because we sure as hell know that the US, Israel and the UN isn't going to grant it to them.

The Palestinians have no state, and so for them, pride is all they have left.. Unfortunately however for many Palestinians, seeing their family, and in particular their fathers beaten in front of them, imprisoned or shot by Israeli soldiers, they even feel like they lose their dignity, and when a man loses his dignity, he loses the will to live and thanks to that and the extremist movements, their lack of education and desperation let them fall into these movements hands and this is when suicide bombings happen. It's not because of some ridiculous idea of virgins in paradise, it's simply about them, not wanting to live on in those inhumane conditions and them being exploited by extremists with their own perverted ideas.

But let them have a state, negotiate peace with them and you'll see that they'll be the best of neighbors. Perhaps if you didn't see Arabs with bias you would see that in fact, they aren't as you believe.

What part of Israel coming into being LEGALLY, don't you understand?

- Legal according to whom? The UN who at that time was mostly colonialist states? If you say that it was approved by the UN and therefore justly created, you better then also then recognize the authority that the UN has in saying that Israel should adhere to the countless resolutions by the UN calling them to allow the resolutions to return of refugees, to go back to pre-67 borders etc. If not then as far as I'm concerned you're picking and choosing what suits Israel best just to justify Zionism.

What part of Israel being the victor in all the wars the Arabs threw at them; and acting, (viewed impartially), mainly, as a very benevolent victor, don't you understand?

Benevolent victor? Are you serious?

Plus, If by being the victor in all of the wars you mean having killed a huge percentage of non-combatants then sure, Israel has won them all. But if however you mean actually going about and achieving the goals that it had set out to do, then I'm afraid that Israel hasn't done this for a while.. Take for example the 2006 war against Hezbollah that failed miserably in, despite bombing much of Southern Lebanon and South Beirut flat it neither wiped out Hezbollah nor stop the rocket threat. It even failed miserably in liberating the soldiers that Hezbollah captured and ultimately had to engage in negotiations to trade prisoners with Hezbollah, which was Hezbollah's goal in the first place.

What part of "Never Again!", don't you understand?

Oh please, when does the mandate for victimhood in justifying the horrendous crimes against another people end? Stop using the Holocaust as an excuse for such disgusting behavior, it's trampling on the memory of the terrible events that happened there. The victims of such genocide and those who died trying to save them don't deserve to have their names sullied with such outrageous justifications. I resent the fact that you'd exploit the sacrifice of Australian and New Zealand soldiers who died fighting to stop the Nazis to justify yet more ethnic cleansing and low intensity genocide on another innocent people.

The Arabs didn't kill 6 million Jews in Europe, in fact many Arabs and Muslims risked their lives to try and help the Jews that were being made the victims of European persecution. Muslim families in France risked their lives by sneaking Jewish children to safety away from the clutches of the Nazis. So why take the Arab's land and punish them for Europe's crimes?

The only reason why Israel hasn't agreed to anything now and keeps dragging its feet is because it has the power to do so with its military and US backing.

If Israel doesn't want to live side by side with the Palestinians in a two state solution then so be it, but ultimately one day, the tables will turn. Then what will Israel do?

Although I don't like him much, I have to say... Ahmedinejad was 100% right about one thing. When he stated that like the USSR, due to Israel's policies both domestic and foreign Israel would simply collapse. It is an occupation that can't be kept on forever without the acceptance of its neighbors and its neighbors are reaching out with peace. 60 years of war is long enough, Israel won't last another 60 years due to its domestic policies and the Palestinians shouldn't have to wait another 60 years.

The Palestinian, deserted by all Arab nations who got them into this mess, now must think for himself, and conduct himself rationally and self-responsibly, by making unilateral and independent peace proposals to Israel.

(Removing all 'elimination' clauses from the Charters of their organisations would be a good start. )

Or is the ignominy of doing this too much for them?

You mean like the Oslo Accords which Israel refused to abide by, building more and more settlements? Yes, that's been tried.

You say "Hamas wants peace.." That's a sick joke. By circumstance and immoral leadership, Gaza is in a 'nothing to lose' situation, and is behaving that way. Israel wants peace - she has vastly more to lose - but not at any cost.

Of course Hamas want peace. Do you think they are so subhuman that they don't want peace for their children so that their children can grow up in a world without bombings, shootings, sieges and starvation? They don't want safety and security and prefer to live in those horrible conditions?

Edited January 15, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[BaalChatzaf]

Adonis, your naivety (that's what I think it is) is most disarming.

If the time ever came that one half of the solution you are proposing came to pass, you, and all the other well-meaning Muslims will be swept aside by the rush to eliminate Israel, by the other 90% of Arabs. This is why those compromises you are suggesting will not be made by Israel; they understand the Muslim mentality deeply.

You and MSK are making the same mistake. You are being charitable and your are willing to forgive. Don't do it. It might kill you some day.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

Discussing is no mistake.

Blind hatred is.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Adonis,

You make it sound like Hamas is merely a peace-loving victim who can't help being violent.

From what I have seen on Palestinian TV and read about the Nazi leftovers, once you purge the Hamas of Nazism (I mean that literally, not figuratively), maybe some of those left will fit your description.

But from what I have observed, Hamas promotes about as blind a hatred and bigotry as I have ever witnessed. It's an organization full of thugs who bullies the Palestinian people as much as it lobbies rockets at Israeli schools.

I do not think Hamas is representative of the Palestinian people. I think they are afraid of Hamas like the Germans were afraid of the Nazis.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

Bob,

Discussing is no mistake.

Blind hatred is.

Michael

What about 20-20 hatred? All the better to take good aim with.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

Imo, 20-20 hatred is laser-targeted. Blind hatred is not discriminating.

For instance, 20-20 hatred would be hatred for surviving Nazi ideology in specific Islamic groups, not something as broad and varied as Islam as a whole.

You mentioned in another thread that many Jews are died-in-the-wool liberals.

Liberals are not Nazi leftovers, but I see a pattern from this stubbornness by such Jews at oversimplifying while glossing over the real threat to them. I detect a serious problem with identifying the enemy correctly.

That happened once already before WWII and look what happened. Why repeat the error?

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

That happened once already before WWII and look what happened. Why repeat the error?

Michael

My very point! So why be charitable toward Muslims?

If he comes to kill you, rise up early and slay him first --- Talmud Bavli San Hedrin 72a

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

Indeed.

Why be 20-20 effective all the time when blind might work on a good day?

Long live the blind!

They can't see their plight.

Michael

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis,

You make it sound like Hamas is merely a peace-loving victim who can't help being violent.

From what I have seen on Palestinian TV and read about the Nazi leftovers, once you purge the Hamas of Nazism (I mean that literally, not figuratively), maybe some of those left will fit your description.

But from what I have observed, Hamas promotes about as blind a hatred and bigotry as I have ever witnessed. It's an organization full of thugs who bullies the Palestinian people as much as it lobbies rockets at Israeli schools.

I do not think Hamas is representative of the Palestinian people. I think they are afraid of Hamas like the Germans were afraid of the Nazis.

Michael

Michael, I don't like Hamas. But then again, why would I? They were created by Israeli intelligence.

I do however support the Palestinian people's right to resist the occupation of their land whether it is Hamas or any other organization doing it. All I say is that the attacks should not be targeted at non-combatants. I don't think that Hamas' rockets are sophisticated enough that they could aim them specifically at schools either. Most are so unguided, primitive and full of fuel which burns out that burns out on the way to the target, that they barely have any bang to them. Their rockets are, in my opinion, more of a psychological weapon which is reflected in the lack of casualties on the Israeli side.

Israel however targets Palestinian schools, mosques, hospitals, water treatment and sewerage facilities, power facilities etc, all whilst having perhaps the most advanced targeting systems in the world.

The Israeli military was also found to have directly targeted civilians who even had white flags waving in the air.

Israel also used white phosphorous munitions on civilian areas, an act against the rules of war and also seems to have used Tungsten coated Dense Inert Metal Explosive or DIME munitions in the conflict which explodes into incredibly small pieces and tears the target into shreds. DIME weapons are still experimental and in all cases that these types of shrapnel were tested by the US military, it was found to cause cancer in 100% of those wounded by it.

[BaalChatzaf]

Israel also used white phosphorous munitions on civilian areas, an act against the rules of war and also seems to have used Tungsten coated Dense Inert Metal Explosive or DIME munitions in the conflict which explodes into incredibly small pieces and tears the target into shreds. DIME weapons are still experimental and in all cases that these types of shrapnel were tested by the US military, it was found to cause cancer in 100% of those wounded by it.

And the U.S. used fissile uranium and plutonium on civilian areas. So what? In wars people are killed and property is destroyed. If the Japanese or the Germans got nuclear weapons first they would have used them on us.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[jeffrey smith]

Michael, I don't like Hamas. But then again, why would I? They were created by Israeli intelligence.

I do however support the Palestinian people's right to resist the occupation of their land whether it is Hamas or any other organization doing it. All I say is that the attacks should not be targeted at non-combatants. I don't think that Hamas' rockets are sophisticated enough that they could aim them specifically at schools either. Most are so unguided, primitive and full of fuel which burns out that burns out on the way to the target, that they barely have any bang to them. Their rockets are, in my opinion, more of a psychological weapon which is reflected in the lack of casualties on the Israeli side.

Israel however targets Palestinian schools, mosques, hospitals, water treatment and sewerage facilities, power facilities etc, all whilst having perhaps the most advanced targeting systems in the world.

The Israeli military was also found to have directly targeted civilians who even had white flags waving in the air.

Israel also used white phosphorous munitions on civilian areas, an act against the rules of war and also seems to have used Tungsten coated Dense Inert Metal Explosive or DIME munitions in the conflict which explodes into incredibly small pieces and tears the target into shreds. DIME weapons are still experimental and in all cases that these types of shrapnel were tested by the US military, it was found to cause cancer in 100% of those wounded by it.

1)And if Hamas was not created by Israeli intelligence you would approve of them? [in point of fact Hamas was not created by the Israelis, but it did receive enough support in its early years from Israel that your wording is only an exaggeration.]

2) Hamas rockets are lethal enough, and their inaccuracy is merely another indication that Hamas doesn't adhere to any civilized mores.

3)Another indication of that is their use of schools, mosques, etc, as supply depots and command centers. They also wave white flags around and then attack Israeli soldiers who come to investigate. That way when Israel properly targets their weapons and command centers they can get useful idiots like yourself to complain that Israel is targeting civilians, when in fact, it is Hamas who is purposely putting civilians in danger.

When the Palestinians give Hamas the treatment it deserves--meaning, hanging them all from the nearest streetlight or tree as murderous thugs--then we can talk about Palestinians wanting peace. But as long as they don't oppose Hamas, it can be easily deduced that Palestinians don't want to live in peace with Israelis, under any conditions.

Jeffrey S.

[anthony]

Adonis, your naivety (that's what I think it is) is most disarming.

If the time ever came that one half of the solution you are proposing came to pass, you, and all the other well-meaning Muslims will be swept aside by the rush to eliminate Israel, by the other 90% of Arabs. This is why those compromises you are suggesting will not be made by Israel; they understand the Muslim mentality deeply.

You and MSK are making the same mistake. You are being charitable and your are willing to forgive. Don't do it. It might kill you some day.

Ba'al Chatzaf

No, I don't 'do' forgiveness or charity - nor hatred, as AV has accused me of. Let's call it good will... until more is revealed.

However, I know full well what you mean, (it's cost me in the past) but I'll just have to go on taking that chance!

Tony