The Israeli-Palestinian issue

[Leonid]

MSK

I fully aware of the meaning of the word "evasion". For example when you say "I consider speculations presented as fact (such as claiming someone is in favor of the Holocaust when he both says he isn't and gives every indication in his attitudes that he isn't, and I have read you doing that) you evade the fact that Adonis repeats verbatim the explicit position of Iranian president who calls to wipe Israel from the map. I suggested to you to compare Adonis's position with that of Ahmedinejad which I quoted from the most reliable source. You failed to do that. Adonis, by self-admission conjures with Ahmedinejad in Holocaust denial. You evade that as well. You just make unsubstantiated declaration that “he isn't" and evade all his statements to the contrary- including the call for expulsion. Your rejection of the validity of the facts based not on their true or false values but simply on the origin of their source. According to you I suppose to use only Palestinian or Iranian sources to please “the other person". And what is for you the "independent source"? Independent from what? Will Jewish virtual library do?

Definitely we use different standards. My standard is to call a spade by its name. Your standard is to say there is no spade at all.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Leonid

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I fully aware of the meaning of the word "evasion". For example when you say "I consider speculations presented as fact (such as claiming someone is in favor of the Holocaust when he both says he isn't and gives every indication in his attitudes that he isn't, and I have read you doing that) you evade the fact that Adonis repeats verbatim the explicit position of Iranian president who calls to wipe Israel from the map.

Leonid,

I do not evade anything of the sort.

If you read my posts to Adonis, you will find a principled and sourced defense of Israel, even linking to UN acts. (Far better than your alleged "defense.")

But I understand where he is coming from. He wants power in the hands of the Palestinians, not the Israelis, since he believes the Palestinians were thrown off their own land. He doesn't want gas chambers for Jews or anything of the sort. It has nothing to do with a new Holocaust like you accuse.

And he is more than aware that I disagree with him. We are at a point of examining the material the other is presenting.

If you don't believe me about any of this, just ask him.

I have even challenged his understanding of Zionism (with sources, unlike you haters). But I can't get around to discussing this properly because of people like you taking spiteful irrational pot shots at him.

Definitely we use different standards. My standard is to call a spade by its name. Your standard is to say there is no spade at all.

Really?

Then what do you think I am doing by calling you the hater your posts show you to be?

Michael

[Selene]

As an FYI, I listened to Alan Dershowitz, The Case for Israel, mentioned by Michael I believe, tonight, he is a lefty that I respect.

He argued that Israel should cede, as an acre for acre land swap with the proposed Palestinian state...ALL of the "far West Bank settlements."

Adam

[jeffrey smith]

Michael, in 277

But I understand where he is coming from. He wants power in the hands of the Palestinians, not the Israelis, since he believes the Palestinians were thrown off their own land. He doesn't want gas chambers for Jews or anything of the sort. It has nothing to do with a new Holocaust like you accuse.

Unfortunately, the only way his preferred outcome could be implemented would be through a new Holocaust.

Add to that Hamas' desire for an Islamic shariah state (with the dhimmi status imposed on any Jews allowed to live there) and the anti-Semitic tone of much public discourse among Palestinians, and it's not hard to imagine an end of Israel in which Jews were not merely forced into exile but killed outright.

Adam in 278

He argued that Israel should cede, as an acre for acre land swap with the proposed Palestinian state...ALL of the "far West Bank settlements."

Presumably far West Bank settlements don't include the built up areas close to Jerusalem, but do include those settlements which consist of a small Jewish population in the middle of a larger Arab population.

As far as I know, the only people who would not accept such a deal are the maximalists on either side.

I might mention that the Jewish maximalists actually believe that a Jewish state should include most of Lebanon and much of southern/western Syria, as well as most of modern Jordan, because those are the bounds of the Biblical kingdom (as established by King David)--but not necessarily the Negev south of Beersheva, because that was not part of the Biblical kingdom.

Jeffrey S.

[Selene]

Michael, in 277

But I understand where he is coming from. He wants power in the hands of the Palestinians, not the Israelis, since he believes the Palestinians were thrown off their own land. He doesn't want gas chambers for Jews or anything of the sort. It has nothing to do with a new Holocaust like you accuse.

Unfortunately, the only way his preferred outcome could be implemented would be through a new Holocaust.

Add to that Hamas' desire for an Islamic shariah state (with the dhimmi status imposed on any Jews allowed to live there) and the anti-Semitic tone of much public discourse among Palestinians, and it's not hard to imagine an end of Israel in which Jews were not merely forced into exile but killed outright.

Adam in 278

He argued that Israel should cede, as an acre for acre land swap with the proposed Palestinian state...ALL of the "far West Bank settlements."

Presumably far West Bank settlements don't include the built up areas close to Jerusalem, but do include those settlements which consist of a small Jewish population in the middle of a larger Arab population.

As far as I know, the only people who would not accept such a deal are the maximalists on either side.

I might mention that the Jewish maximalists actually believe that a Jewish state should include most of Lebanon and much of southern/western Syria, as well as most of modern Jordan, because those are the bounds of the Biblical kingdom (as established by King David)--but not necessarily the Negev south of Beersheva, because that was not part of the Biblical kingdom.

Jeffrey S.

Correct Jeffrey. They would be the most "extreme" in terms of scope. Similar to the Twelvers in Iran with the global caliphate, but on a smaller scale.

We concentrate on the Middle East, but you have Sri Lanka unsettling again. Nigeria in a complete state of flux waiting to explode. The world is a slowly bubbling cauldron of competing forces.

Bubble bubble ...toil and trouble...

Americans have no clue how lucky they are.

Adam

[BaalChatzaf]

Americans have no clue how lucky they are.

Adam

Fat, dumb and happy. Until another Pearl Harbor. Then the world shall yet see how un-nice we can be.

The great tragedy for us (and the world) is that we never became the Second Rome. If we ever had a Pax Americana, it would be the best two hundred years the world ever saw.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

Americans have no clue how lucky they are.

Adam

Fat, dumb and happy. Until another Pearl Harbor. Then the world shall yet see how un-nice we can be.

The great tragedy for us (and the world) is that we never became the Second Rome. If we ever had a Pax Americana, it would be the best two hundred years the world ever saw.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Yep. I was astounded by the fact that we permitted the Soviets to cement their hold on Europe when I was a ten (10) year old.

Later when I learned what an absolute moron Roosevelt was concerning Europe and particularly Germany, plus the fact that the Soviets had all their armor and troops settled into Europe and the fact that Stalin, malignant scum that he was, completely out strategized both Churchill and Roosevelt at Yalta and made even more progress at Potsdam because Churchill had been voted out and Truman who had a lot of catching up to do,

Add to that the Communists that had encysted the FDR administration were not too helpful to Truman at Potsdam, plus the incredible war weary America made Roosevelt an empty suit at Yalta.

Tough to start that Pax Americana under those conditions.

Adam

[Leonid]

I fully aware of the meaning of the word "evasion". For example when you say "I consider speculations presented as fact (such as claiming someone is in favor of the Holocaust when he both says he isn't and gives every indication in his attitudes that he isn't, and I have read you doing that) you evade the fact that Adonis repeats verbatim the explicit position of Iranian president who calls to wipe Israel from the map.

Leonid,

I do not evade anything of the sort.

If you read my posts to Adonis, you will find a principled and sourced defense of Israel, even linking to UN acts. (Far better than your alleged "defense.")

But I understand where he is coming from. He wants power in the hands of the Palestinians, not the Israelis, since he believes the Palestinians were thrown off their own land. He doesn't want gas chambers for Jews or anything of the sort. It has nothing to do with a new Holocaust like you accuse.

And he is more than aware that I disagree with him. We are at a point of examining the material the other is presenting.

If you don't believe me about any of this, just ask him.

I have even challenged his understanding of Zionism (with sources, unlike you haters). But I can't get around to discussing this properly because of people like you taking spiteful irrational pot shots at him.

Definitely we use different standards. My standard is to call a spade by its name. Your standard is to say there is no spade at all.

Really?

Then what do you think I am doing by calling you the hater your posts show you to be?

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Unfortunately, the only way his preferred outcome could be implemented would be through a new Holocaust.

Jeff,

This is pure conjecture about la-la land. It has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with floating abstractions. The plain fact is that this cannot be implemented reality. Not in today's world. Period.

If you read my posts, you will see me asking Adonis why insist on a discourse inherently doomed to failure.

Your projection of how to implement the outcome is just as unreal as his "preferred outcome" of abolishing the government of Israel. Neither are going to happen in today's world. There are too many people involved and too many safeguards in place.

I consider all of this to be empty rhetoric totally disconnected from reality.

Add to that Hamas' desire for an Islamic shariah state (with the dhimmi status imposed on any Jews allowed to live there) and the anti-Semitic tone of much public discourse among Palestinians, and it's not hard to imagine an end of Israel in which Jews were not merely forced into exile but killed outright.

More of the same.

Pure la-la land.

And if you read Adonis's posts correctly, you will read clearly that his beef is with "Zionists" (as he understands the term), not Jews as a whole. And I get the distinct impression that he is against the anti-Semitic propaganda Hamas presents and sanctions.

Michael

[Leonid]

MSK: "I do not evade anything of the sort."

OK, then you don't evade. You just conveniently ignore the simple fact that expulsion of Zionists (read Jews) from Israel which Adonis promotes on your thread, spells Holocaust-even without gas chambers. You obviously right when you say that Adonis has nothing to do with a new Holocaust-he's by self-admission Holocaust denier and doesn't believe even in the old Holocaust. You choose not to pay attention to the fact that he's repeatedly denies or ignores well established solid facts in regard to the history of the conflict. You prefer not to see that Adonis is simply copycats Ahmadinejad. I'm glad to learn that you have so much understanding for Adonis. I'm also aware that you presented "principled and sourced defense of Israel", much better than I or everybody else could do. Good for you, but the end result is the same-Adonis simply ignores your arguments. Your position in regard to Israel is not in question (BTW Israel's right to exist doesn't need your or my defense, it has been defended by its soldiers time and again); your position in regard to Adonis is. You have used every single trick from rationalization’s text book to prove that Adonis is not what he is, that he doesn't mean it or cannot help it. I hate nothing and nobody, but I'd like to remind you that Talmud says:" Whoever is merciful to the cruel becomes cruel to the merciful"

MSK

"Then what do you think I am doing by calling you the hater your posts show you to be?"

Faking reality, of course as you do in regard to Adonis.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Leonid

[Leonid]

Unfortunately, the only way his preferred outcome could be implemented would be through a new Holocaust.

Jeff,

This is pure conjecture about la-la land. It has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with floating abstractions. The plain fact is that this cannot be implemented reality. Not in today's world. Period.

If you read my posts, you will see me asking Adonis why insist on a discourse inherently doomed to failure.

Your projection of how to implement the outcome is just as unreal as his "preferred outcome" of abolishing the government of Israel. Neither are going to happen in today's world. There are too many people involved and too many safeguards in place.

I consider all of this to be empty rhetoric totally disconnected from reality.

Add to that Hamas' desire for an Islamic shariah state (with the dhimmi status imposed on any Jews allowed to live there) and the anti-Semitic tone of much public discourse among Palestinians, and it's not hard to imagine an end of Israel in which Jews were not merely forced into exile but killed outright.

More of the same.

Pure la-la land.

And if you read Adonis's posts correctly, you will read clearly that his beef is with "Zionists" (as he understands the term), not Jews as a whole. And I get the distinct impression that he is against the anti-Semitic propaganda Hamas presents and sanctions.

Michael

[Leonid]

MSK: "Pure la-la land."

First, don't be too sure. Many very clever people in 1934 Germany also used to think so. In few years they became a smoke.

Second, even if you're 120% right-how that changes the moral status of the person who advocates Holocaust and the rule of Sharia law?

It's like to say " the poor guy promotes killing, but, shame, he has no chance, don't mind him". Sorry, Michael, but we'll mind him, just in case that one day he may get his chance. It's already happened once, you know...

Edited February 15, 2010 by Leonid

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

You obviously right when you say that Adonis has nothing to do with a new Holocaust-he's by self-admission Holocaust denier and doesn't believe even in the old Holocaust.

Leonid,

Where did he say that?

Either I missed it or you are wrong.

Michael

[Selene]

You obviously right when you say that Adonis has nothing to do with a new Holocaust-he's by self-admission Holocaust denier and doesn't believe even in the old Holocaust.

Leonid,

Where did he say that?

Either I missed it or you are wrong.

Michael

Michael:

If my memory serves me correctly, Adonis referred to Akmadenijad as to phrasing. However, I do not ever remember him denying the Holocaust.

Merely quoting Akmadenijad does not mean that he believes everything that he spouts about the Holocaust. Associational guilt rarely works with me.

However, I could be wrong as I skim the long screeching posts also.

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Leonid,

I thought you would allude to Hitler once again.

This shows the typical misunderstanding of the modern world and refusal to look at what is really happening I constantly see in these discussions. Hatred and fear reign supreme and blot out all awareness and reason except for the most superficial.

Israel needs to be defended by reason, not by the kind of stuff you have been doing. You do not stamp out the monster of bigotry by becoming a bigot. You do not kill the monster that has threatened you by becoming the monster itself.

That's just plain wrong.

I don't have time to look at all the oversimplified garbage you keep pouring out. But let's look into one. Let's look at your claim that "Adonis is simply copycats Ahmadinejad."

Where on earth did you park your awareness? You don't show that you understand anything about Ahmadinejad as you try to trump up his Holocaust denial as a fundamental part of his thinking and the original from which Adonis "copycats."

Someone like Ahmadinejad is not like Hitler, other than the thuggishness he practices. I believe he is a potential threat to the world greater than Hitler was, but for reasons I don't see you interested in at all in your misrepresentations.

Israel is "Little Satan" to Ahmadinejad, not the "Big Satan." Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial is within that context. The enemy that interests him far more than Israel is another, the USA. The "Big Satan." And he believes he has a reward for all this at the end of the road. A direct reward from Allah.

Ahmadinejad is a Twelver who is on record as saying he receives direct aid from Allah to keep the eyes of the world's leaders glued to him and keeps them from blinking. He even believes he got a halo that covered his whole body and the hand of Allah was out in front, holding the world's leaders in their place. Look at the video below (from a 2007 news cast).

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2dde95hxT8&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2dde95hxT8&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2dde95hxT8&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

One of the core beliefs of Twelvers is that the twelfth Imam, Mohammed ibn Hasan, will come out of hiding, sort of like the second coming of Jesus, but that this will be preceded by widespread chaos on earth. The sect Ahmadinejad belongs to favors hastening the creation of this chaos so that the Divine good stuff will happen. He believes he is the instrument of Allah to help bring this about.

In layman's terms, this is an end-of-time death cult. If Ahmadinejad gets his trigger-finger on a nuke, his behavior and pronouncements show him to have the potential of being the mother of all suicide bombers. This is literal, not rhetorical.

(What's worse, this flies into the face of Christian mythology about the arrival of the Antichrist. This looks a whole lot like the Antichrist. So what's a good Christian to do? Take out the Antichrist, of course. But that's another discussion.)

None of this has anything at all to do with Hitler's Anti-Semitism, which was based on eugenics. Hitler believed that Jews had a biological defect that was contaminating the human race and that the Ayrian strain was the best humans could get. People like Ahmadinejad believe that Israel (not Jews) is the manifestation on earth of Satan, and not even the top Satan at that. The USA gets that honor.

Ahmadinejad is literally not afraid to wipe out his entire country--his own country, not just Israel--in order to fight Satan, especially as he believes he will be rewarded for this at the end of times, which is at hand. As I said above, he is on record as believing he is directly receiving Divine help for the mission of hastening the return of the Twelfth Imam.

Hitler wanted to stamp out Jews from existence. Ahmadinejad wants the whole world to burn, merely starting with Israel.

That is sheer madness, but it has nothing to do with Hitler.

And, from everythinng I have read on this forum, this has nothing to do with anything Adonis has posted, nor Adonis's demonization of Zionism.

Let's look at your claim again: "Adonis is simply copycats Ahmadinejad."

Really?

That kind of crap makes independent readers turn off to your message.

In my opinion, you don't want to convince anybody of anything. Not me. Not Adonis. Not the reader. Nobody. You just want to spout the standard platitudes and oversimplifications of anti-Islamic blogs in order to vent fear and hatred and, maybe, get some applause from others like you.

Make no mistake. I am an enemy of people turning off their minds like you do.

I believe you have a good mind, too. So turn the damn thing on.

Bigotry is evil.

Michael

[Leonid]

You obviously right when you say that Adonis has nothing to do with a new Holocaust-he's by self-admission Holocaust denier and doesn't believe even in the old Holocaust.

Leonid,

Where did he say that?

Either I missed it or you are wrong.

Michael

[Leonid]

"Where did he say that?"

He presented this video

and said he agrees with it

Edited February 15, 2010 by Leonid

[Leonid]

MSK

"Let's look at your claim again: "Adonis is simply copycats Ahmadinejad."

Really?"-really! Don't read my "crap." Read his and compare it with that of Ahmadinejad.For example his definition of Zionism as racism and that of Ahmadinejad who said " Zionism is the complete symbol of racism, which with unreal reliance on religion has tried to misuse the religious beliefs of some unaware people and hide its ugly face… we should try to put an end to the misuse of international means by the Zionists and their supporters." [9] (April 20, 2009). Or compare Adonis's talks about expulsion with that:” Some Europeans countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces…Although we don't accept this claim…If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe-like in Germany, Austria or other countries-to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe." [76] (Dec. 8, 2005). Adonis: " If you want to punish someone for Holocaust, punish the Europeans, British and Americans who provided immense support for the Nazis and cut a piece of land from Europe, Britain or the US to create a Jewish state in, otherwise leave it as a Palestinian state which was supposed to occur, that was the mandate and the legality of it." Ahmadinejad ""Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country."

I presented enough citations from him and provided a link.

http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/c.hsJPK0PIJpH/b.2951397/k.6E9B/President_Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_In_His_Own_Words.htm

http://www.adl.org/main_International_Affairs/ahmadinejad_words.htm?Multi_page_sections=sHeading_2

You may learn that Adonis repeats Ahmadinejad verbatim. The analogy between Ahmadinejad and Hitler is obvious. "Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi drew a connecting line yesterday between his visit to the Yad Vashem Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem, the Iranian nuclear program, and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's denial of the Holocaust and calls for Israel's destruction.”We must watch out," the visiting premier said. "We've already had one such madman in history."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/02/italys-berlusconi-compares-ahmadinejad-to-hitler.html

You claim that Ahmadinejad is worse than Hitler. Could be. Both are bloody mystics. But how that justifies Adonis' allegiance to him?

Bigotry is evil, and if you choose to call me bigot you at least should have a decency to substantiate your claim. So far you failed to do that. Simple presentation of the obvious facts and connections between them doesn't make me bigot. Evasion, however, not lesser and maybe bigger evil. This is the only real Objectivist crime. I think I supplied enough evidence that you are guilty as charged,

Edited February 15, 2010 by Leonid

[Selene]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=WqhhAe1UE58

[Libertarian Muslim]

"Where did he say that?"

He presented this video

and said he agrees with it

Where did Ahmedinejad state that the Holocaust didn't happen or that there wasn't as many who died that are claimed in the video that I posted up?

He asked 3 questions and didn't come to any conclusions regarding the Holocaust.. If you equate a request to examine the facts themselves including scientific research at the sites of where these horrible events as denial then I'm sorry, but you have no right to do so.. It's an important event in history, people should have access to the sources including the sites just as they do with ANY other historical event, especially when it is so prominent in politics..

If no one has anything to hide then why would they equate such a request to outright denial?

PS. I will respond to your other comments a bit later today.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

"Where did he say that?"

He presented this video

and said he agrees with it

Where did Ahmedinejad state that the Holocaust didn't happen or that there wasn't as many who died that are claimed in the video that I posted up?

Adonis,

I just now watched that video and Leonid is flat-out wrong. Ahmadinejad did not deny the Holocaust in that interview and you did not agree that the Holocaust did not exist.

BUT...

God damn it!

Do you have to quote a nutcase like Ahmedinejad, who is a Holocaust denier, a fundamentalist Islamist Twelver, and an outright proven liar? And quote him in a video where he is asked flat-out by a newscaster several times in several different manners if he believes the Holocaust existed or not, and he goes blah blah blah all over the place and doesn't answer what he was asked?

Even if he makes a point or other, come on. Let's have some standards in our sources.

Just as I believe Israel is ill-served by being defended by bigots, I also believe the Palestinians are ill-served by the same. I want to call Ahmedinejad a bigot, and he certainly preaches bigotry, especially between the lines, but I don't believe bigotry is at his foundation. I believe it is far, far, far worse. I believe the destruction of the world is at his foundation.

Is that a man you want to quote in defense of the Palestinians?

Gimme a break!

Setting aside the intense offensiveness his irrational and calculated demeanor causes to Jews (which you have to be aware of if you live on planet earth), think about this.

If Ahmedinejad tries to destroy Israel with nukes to open the path to the return of the Twelfth Imam, which I believe is his long-range goal (so I don't think he will attack until he has built up a large enough arsenal several years down the road to really screw things up), which part of the Palestinian land do you think his nukes will not affect?

Do you think he will give a damn about the Palestinians then? You know he will be saying that the Palestinains should be happy to die in his crusade because Allah will reward them for their martyrdom. That the situation was unfortunate, and he really cares about them, but since they did live next door to The Little Satan, it was necessary to sacrifice them, yada yada yada...

How would you react to a "reasonable" quote from something like Samson Blinded, which preaches the annexation of entire countries like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, etc. to Israel? Those folks can have "reasonable" moments when they discuss Palestinian history. Would you like to listen to their analysis of the Palestinians? Are you interested in any insight they may offer about the Palestinian people?

Why descend to that level and quote Ahmedinejad, of all people? Do you really want the independent readers and more intelligent people to stop listening to your arguments? That's exactly what they do when you do that.

I intensely dislike Leonid's manner of discourse (instead of presenting facts backed up by independent sources, he makes incorrect generalizations, he quotes--when he does quote--biased blogs like Jihad Watch, and he insults you if you disagree with him), but I can understand him getting upset by having a loon like Ahmedinejad quoted.

Hell, I'm getting upset, myself.

I thought this was a serious discussion. I certainly want it to be. I'm even ragging people like Leonid because of his poor intellectual standards.

Let's chalk that quote up to a misfire and leave it at that. I suspect you knew it would be inflammatory, but I prefer to keep to the high road. Let's try to stay on the high road. Shall we?

Michael

[jeffrey smith]

Unfortunately, the only way his preferred outcome could be implemented would be through a new Holocaust.

Jeff,

This is pure conjecture about la-la land. It has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with floating abstractions. The plain fact is that this cannot be implemented reality. Not in today's world. Period.

If you read my posts, you will see me asking Adonis why insist on a discourse inherently doomed to failure.

Your projection of how to implement the outcome is just as unreal as his "preferred outcome" of abolishing the government of Israel. Neither are going to happen in today's world. There are too many people involved and too many safeguards in place.

I consider all of this to be empty rhetoric totally disconnected from reality.

Add to that Hamas' desire for an Islamic shariah state (with the dhimmi status imposed on any Jews allowed to live there) and the anti-Semitic tone of much public discourse among Palestinians, and it's not hard to imagine an end of Israel in which Jews were not merely forced into exile but killed outright.

More of the same.

Pure la-la land.

And if you read Adonis's posts correctly, you will read clearly that his beef is with "Zionists" (as he understands the term), not Jews as a whole. And I get the distinct impression that he is against the anti-Semitic propaganda Hamas presents and sanctions.

Michael

First off, especially in light of Leonid's posts today, I had better state quite clearly that I think your last sentence there is completely accurate, and I don't think Adonis is intentionally anti-Semitic.

However, some of his assertions and some of the things he backs have anti-Semitic results--but apparently he doesn't realize the full implications of some of what he says.

I agree that what he wants is something that will never come to pass; I think part of the reason it will never come to pass is because it would involve a new Holocaust--which is why I heartily prefer for my predictions to be confined to la-la land. I don't want them to have a chance to come to pass.

I think Adonis does not fully realize all the implications of his desired outcome. A unified country where Jews and Arabs live in complete harmony would be a highly desirable outcome, but it has no chance of coming to pass because if a unified country came into being, there are enough elements in the Arab community who would want to bring about a second Holocaust, and have the power to at least start on one (Hamas being the most notorious one at the moment), that, essentially, any Israeli would be insane to want to live in the same country as them, and would be insane to trust an independent Palestine to control them without some active Israeli "assistance".

I also think that Adonis is so focused on the facts of Israeli violence against Arabs that he doesn't notice that it takes place in the context of Arab violence against Israelis, and that if the Arab community too concerted steps to half the violence Arabs commit aimed against Israelis, Israel would have no excuse to continue its violence against Arabs. Furthermore, he doesn't seem to understand that as long as Arab violence continues relatively unabated, the elements in Israeli society that would otherwise step in to halt or at least ameliorate the violence and rein in the settlement movement, don't have any motivation to do so. If Israel is nice to the Arabs and still gets suicide bombs and Hamas rockets and anti-Semitic vitriol throughout the Palestinian media, then there's no benefit to being nice to them.

So if the Palestinian community were to abandon violence as a preferred method, it would either gain the moral high ground if Israeli violence continued, or open the way to actual peace. (And if Israelis reined in the settlers and military violence, they might get some benefit. Or they might simply get more violence.) Unfortunately, however, the Palestinian community seems to have viewed violence as the preferred method for some time now--since the 1920s, in fact.

And I am puzzled by Adonis' apparent belief that violence is the only way Palestinians can react to the Israeli occupation. It certainly doesn't have to be.

As to the distinction between Zionists and Jews--yes, he tries to make one, but to my ears his use of the term Zionists seems to cover almost all Jews, except people like Neturei Karta who explicitly reject Zionism. People call things what they want, but that doesn't change the nature of the thing.

Some years ago, I took, as a shore excursion from a cruise, a relatively easy hike in the national park on St. John's, in the US Virgin Islands. Our guide pointed out more than a few time large earth structures and called them "wood-ant nests". Finally, one of the members of our group said, when the guide was out of hearing, "Maybe he calls them wood-ants, but those are termites!" And indeed they were, once you realized what we had seen were termite nests. The guide's euphemism might confuse, but only temporarily.

So it is with Adonis. He might use the term Zionists, but on inspection his Zionists turn out to be ordinary Jews, or at least ordinary Israelis.

Jeffrey S.

Edited February 16, 2010 by jeffrey smith

[Selene]

Jeff:

Good post. Fair.

Was this the "rain forest" end of the island? Or did you do the Maho or Cinnamon Bay trails?

Some years ago, I took, as a shore excursion from a cruise, a relatively easy hike in the national park on St. John's, in the US Virgin Islands. Our guide pointed out more than a few time large earth structures and called them "wood-ant nests". Finally, one of the members of our group said, when the guide was out of hearing, "Maybe he calls them wood-ants, but those are termites!" And indeed they were, once you realized what we had seen were termite nests. The guide's euphemism might confuse, but only temporarily.

Beautiful island.

Gotta give them eugenicists like the Rockefeller a pat on the back for making 3/4 of that island National Parkland.

Robber Baron! Capitalist pig!

Ahh well.

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

He might use the term Zionists, but on inspection his Zionists turn out to be ordinary Jews, or at least ordinary Israelis.

Jeff,

This is a premise I am trying to get Adonis to check. But speculating about what is in his head is not the way to do that.

You present facts and sources. You make reasoned arguments based on them.

I tried to start that check by examining what "Zionist" means and what Adonis thinks it means. I had already read up on this before because I was mistaken in another discussion. But I did again recently and I presented some sources.

This got buried a ways back on this thread as people started yelling at Adonis that he was a Holocaust denier, yada yada yada.

If Adonis has hatred for fanatical Muslim-hating "chosen-people-master-race" fundamentalist Zionists, I believe his is right to hate that. Everyone should. That's racism.

If he includes people under that umbrella who do not hold those views or fanaticism, he is wrong.

Using a blanket term like "Zionism" does precisely that. It includes people that it should not include under an odious concept and it excuses the odious from the other end.

That is a premise that needs serious checking.

(I suggest using a term like "fanatical Zionist" or "fundamentalist Zionist" or something like that to differentiate.)

One premise that does not need checking is whether Adonis is an imbecile who does not express what he thinks clearly, or whether he is an evil madman trying to trick a small forum audience because he hates Jews and wants to destroy the non-Islamic world. I find those premises silly and sickening, but I see them insinuated all the time.

I think Adonis has honorable intentions, he is highly intelligent and his discourse has proven that.

I really would like to discuss the intellectual issues on this topic instead of constantly discussing character.

Michael

[jeffrey smith]

Jeff:

Was this the "rain forest" end of the island? Or did you do the Maho or Cinnamon Bay trails?

Adam

Blessed if I remember. It's been six years or so since I was there, and I don't have a map handy. We ended up at Honeymoon Beach

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and along the way passed the old sugar mill at Caneel Bay

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and an overlook of Cruz Harbor.

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So whichever end of the island that was, that's where we "hiked" (more like a loping stroll for an hour or so )

Hmm. There was supposed to be an image where those dashed lines are, but the system isn't letting me post the images off of Photobucket....

This had been a test of the Emergency Relaxation System.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled argument....