The Israeli-Palestinian issue

[Robert Campbell]

Adding to the TV clip that ND posted upthread, the Wall Street Journal has a new interview with Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of one of the founders of Hamas.

http://online.wsj.co...1069258868.html

The man's story is complicated, to put it mildly, and he has become a convert to Christianity.

Still, a couple of passages in the interview bring out once again that most of the victims of militant Palestinians are other Palestinians:

In 1996, he was arrested by the Israelis for buying weapons. He says he was beaten and tortured badly in custody. It was then that the Shin Bet approached him. He says he thought about becoming a double agent. "I wanted revenge on Israel," he writes. But when he was sent to serve his term at the Megiddo prison in northern Israel, he says he was more shocked by the way the maj'd, Hamas's security wing, dealt with other prisoners.

"Every day, there was screaming; every night, torture. Hamas was torturing its own people!" he writes. The Muslims he met in jail "bore no resemblance to my father" and "were mean and petty . . . bigots and hypocrites."

Robert Campbell

[Brant Gaede]

Adding to the TV clip that ND posted upthread, the Wall Street Journal has a new interview with Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of one of the founders of Hamas.

http://online.wsj.co...1069258868.html

The man's story is complicated, to put it mildly, and he has become a convert to Christianity.

Still, a couple of passages in the interview bring out once again that most of the victims of militant Palestinians are other Palestinians:

In 1996, he was arrested by the Israelis for buying weapons. He says he was beaten and tortured badly in custody. It was then that the Shin Bet approached him. He says he thought about becoming a double agent. "I wanted revenge on Israel," he writes. But when he was sent to serve his term at the Megiddo prison in northern Israel, he says he was more shocked by the way the maj'd, Hamas's security wing, dealt with other prisoners.

"Every day, there was screaming; every night, torture. Hamas was torturing its own people!" he writes. The Muslims he met in jail "bore no resemblance to my father" and "were mean and petty . . . bigots and hypocrites."

Robert Campbell

So, it is in the interest of Israel to become the champion of the "other Palestinians"? But Israel didn't do that, did it, when it handed over the Palestinians to the PLO and Arafat? Which paved the way for Hamas. The "other Palestinians" got screwed by Israel so turning to Hamas was the only default from the PLO itself. That's what happened.

--Brant

Edited March 8, 2010 by Brant Gaede

[Leonid]

MSK:"If that is not your intended message, I, for one, am letting you know that you are not communicating your message correctly."

I've stated my position loud and clear. I cannot be responsible for your attitude to hear only what you want to hear and to skim and skip posts. As a proof see my response to Joel MacDonald.

Joel:” A question more for Leonid than Adonis - What evidence could you accept that the average Muslim rejects the radicals' claims of Death being better than Life?"

Me:” And who is the average Muslim? There is no such a thing. There are different Muslims with different ideas. In any case your "average Muslims" don't define the political course of Muslim countries. Their political and religious leaders do. "

Joel MacDonald “What evidence could disprove that Muslims are barbarians who hate the good for being the good (etc etc)? I would very much like to hear your answer."

Me:” Your statement is obvious overgeneralization. Who could speak for all 1.5 billion Muslims? Note, I didn't claim that all Muslims prefer death over life; I claimed that their religious and political leaders do so citing Islam as the basis for such a claim. (see sura 9.111 above). But not all Muslims take their religion that seriously. To disprove it is very easy-they have explicitly to reject it. But more importantly, they have to stop hostilities and the practice to educate their children as the future shahids and mujahids. (See my post below.)"

I could have brought much more than that, but I don't have time to fix your sloppy job and to argue about your unwarranted conclusions.

MSK:" I have not perceived you consider Islam to be just like any other religion."

Yes, I do. The only difference between Islam and other religions is that Islam is still connected to the structures of political power like a state or pseudo-state. All other mayor religions have been separated from the state, their fangs have been removed.

MSK:"I did not pronounce moral judgment on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict other than to say I want it to end. I did, however, pronounce moral judgment on your hatred."

That is obviously much easier and safer- to fight the straw man rather the real thing. You also never failed to pronounce moral judgment on Adonis, the man, who advocates transfer of Jews from Israel to Europe and supports Iranian nuclear ambitions. You call him honorable man with noble intentions.

MSK: "I have taken a stand and a strong one."

So you did or you didn't? Make up your mind.

MSK:" I want the reader to be aware of the floating abstractions, misrepresentations, etc., you use in trying to show how Israel is the only country in the Middle East worthy of having people in it."

If you want it, bring some proof of my “floating abstractions, misrepresentations, etc.". Simply “because I say so “isn’t good enough. Disqualification of my sources according to the single criterion which is your personal preferences also won't do.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Leonid

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Leonid,

Blah blah blah.

Right here is where I read you.

That is obviously much easier and safer- to fight the straw man rather the real thing.

That "real thing" of yours is what creeps me out. It always undoes every single argument you put forth.

"I'm not a bigot. There are no typical Muslims. There are only typical Muslim leaders and they all want to kill Jews. And if you follow Islam correctly, you will become evil and want to kill Jews. The only peaceful Muslim is a hypocrite." That's the "real thing" I hear in your posts.

About Adonis, yes, I think he is a man of honor and no, I don't believe he wants to ship all Israeli Jews to anywhere. That supposition of yours is not supported by his words. On the contrary, he has repeatedly called for examining a peace proposal and repudiated Islamist terrorism. His position, from everything I have read, is that Israel does not have a moral right to exist where it exists, but since it will not go away, it will have to be accepted under protest so, at least, some kind of peace acceptable to all can be negotiated. I disagree with Adonis over Israel's right to exist where it exists and I have said so, and said why (with sources), but I am in total agreement with him over examining and implementing peace. And then living and let live. Also, I have stated my disagreement with him over Iran.

Despite these disagreements, we seem to get along just fine. Without bigotry, too. And I have no doubt peace, at least between Israel and the Palestinians, will eventually be negotiated. I hope Adonis has a small part in it. I hope I do, too, however small. And the hard feelings will do what they always do. They will evaporate with future generations. Funny how that works when you get rid of the bigotry...

I consider your wrong and misleading characterization of Adonis your "real thing" that I want no part of.

Michael

[Leonid]

Michael:"About Adonis, yes, I think he is a man of honor and no, I don't believe he wants to ship all Israeli Jews to anywhere."

Adonis " If you want to punish someone for Holocaust, punish the Europeans, British and Americans who provided immense support for the Nazis and cut a piece of land from Europe, Britain or the US to create a Jewish state in, otherwise leave it as a Palestinian state which was supposed to occur, that was the mandate and the legality of it."

If you right about Adonis then you are ubdoubtly right about me. However I don;t understand why you insist on your multiple evasions. How you can deny explicitly expressed ideas? Do you think that everybody on this thread is dumb and cannot read?

In regard to Islam-I strongly recommend to read "CRESCENT"-a solid and honourable international magazine.

http://www.crescenticit.com/columns/1-reflctions--zafar-bangash/2666-colonization-of-the-muslim-mind.html

There is some hope that it could cure some of your illusions.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Leonid

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Leonid,

I didn't have any problem at all with understanding "If you want to punish someone..."

You seem to have erased it in your own understanding of Adonis's words.

From what I have read of him so far, I get the feeling that he doesn't want to punish anyone.

Michael

[Leonid]

[

Edited March 10, 2010 by Leonid

[Leonid]

Leonid,

I didn't have any problem at all with understanding "If you want to punish someone..."

You seem to have erased it in your own understanding of Adonis's words.

From what I have read of him so far, I get the feeling that he doesn't want to punish anyone.

Michael

Adonis #163

"So if the tables one day turn and Israel somehow loses military superiority yet still refuses to give a just peace to the Palestinians then war will be the only answer and then I'd support war against the occupation and the expulsion of all Zionists from Palestine if they refuse to live in a state that guarantees the rights of all people in that land as a one state solution..

They can go back to Europe and let them take some of the land of the Germans and Italians, they were responsible for the Holocaust, not the Palestinians."

#187

"But, if any Zionists should happen to want to live in a different type of state then so be it, they can leave and head back to Europe, it was the Europeans and their supporters in America that helped spur Hitler and the Nazi Party into power initially and many of whom supported him during the genocide, and therefore, let EUROPE give up some land for a Zionist state to be created in Europe."

Feeligs are not tools of cognition. Please re-read this and then, confirm your characterization of Adonis as honourable man.

[Selene]

Leonid,

I didn't have any problem at all with understanding "If you want to punish someone..."

You seem to have erased it in your own understanding of Adonis's words.

From what I have read of him so far, I get the feeling that he doesn't want to punish anyone.

Michael

Adonis #163

"So if the tables one day turn and Israel somehow loses military superiority yet still refuses to give a just peace to the Palestinians then war will be the only answer and then I'd support war against the occupation and the expulsion of all Zionists from Palestine if they refuse to live in a state that guarantees the rights of all people in that land as a one state solution..

They can go back to Europe and let them take some of the land of the Germans and Italians, they were responsible for the Holocaust, not the Palestinians."

#187

"But, if any Zionists should happen to want to live in a different type of state then so be it, they can leave and head back to Europe, it was the Europeans and their supporters in America that helped spur Hitler and the Nazi Party into power initially and many of whom supported him during the genocide, and therefore, let EUROPE give up some land for a Zionist state to be created in Europe."

Feeligs are not tools of cognition. Please re-read this and then, confirm your characterization of Adonis as honourable man.

Leonid:

You being the smart person that you are, surely you understand that Adonis, rightly or wrongly, distinctly separates Jewish persons and Zionist persons into two distinct groups...yes.

And surely, you being as smart as you are, realize that many observers of Islam separate Muslims into Muslim persons and Islamo-Fascist persons...yes.

Adam

[Leonid]

MSK "The only peaceful Muslim is a hypocrite"

As usual, you misunderstand and misinterpret. This is NOT my position. My position is that peaceful Muslim as many other people, lives by mixed premises. His religion demands from him total submission and ultimate sacrifice. His sense of life and rationality demand from him to live his life for his own goals, purposes and happiness. He compromises by given money to Palestine, uses Qur'an as dietary and hygienic guide, prays and fasts during Ramadan. Otherwise he lives for himself and his family. This compromise is not a hypocrisy but unavoidable consequence of any religious faith. Only few Muslims are fundamentalists, who take Qur'an literary. They use it as a manual to assembly suicide belt in three easy steps. They don't compromise, but they don't live either.

[Leonid]

"You being the smart person that you are, surely you understand that Adonis, rightly or wrongly, distinctly separates Jewish persons and Zionist persons into two distinct groups...yes.

And surely, you being as smart as you are, realize that many observers of Islam separate Muslims into Muslim persons and Islamo-Fascist persons...yes."

Adam

The answer to the first question is NO. For Adonis all Jews who claim the right to live in Israel are Zionists. And he's right-they are.

The answer to the second question is YES. See my post above.

Leonid.

[Selene]

"You being the smart person that you are, surely you understand that Adonis, rightly or wrongly, distinctly separates Jewish persons and Zionist persons into two distinct groups...yes.

And surely, you being as smart as you are, realize that many observers of Islam separate Muslims into Muslim persons and Islamo-Fascist persons...yes."

Adam

The answer to the first question is NO. For Adonis all Jews who claim the right to live in Israel are Zionists. And he's right-they are.

The answer to the second question is YES. See my post above.

Leonid.

You Sir, are quite lost.

I wish you well.

We at least can work together advancing Ayn's ideas.

Adam

Post Script: The reason I stated my post that way is that it really does not matter whether Adonis is a "lying black foot" or a "truthful white foot," you can't see that segment of the world any other way except through your colored prism. Sad.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Selene

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Adam,

You are starting to see what I see. Leonid says in one breath that he is reasonable. In another, out comes sweeping things like "His religion demands from him total submission and ultimate sacrifice."

From what I understand, all religions "demand" submission to God (however they call Him) and claim that God will subject all people to the "ultimate sacrifice" through death.

But I have the feeling that's not what he means.

It's hard to discuss this stuff with someone who does this kind of thing all the time.

It's like the old joke, "I'm not a bigot. But I can't help it when someone isn't white and good."

Michael

[Selene]

Adam,

You are starting to see what I see. Leonid says in one breath that he is reasonable. In another, out comes sweeping things like "His religion demands from him total submission and ultimate sacrifice."

From what I understand, all religions "demand" submission to God (however they call Him) and claim that God will subject all people to the "ultimate sacrifice" through death.

But I have the feeling that's not what he means.

It's hard to discuss this stuff with someone who does this kind of thing all the time.

It's like the old joke, "I'm not a bigot. But I can't help it when someone isn't white and good."

Michael

Michael:

I've never been comfortable with that stance, but it is very prevalent.

This last week was the 150 anniversary of the Dred Scott case and one of the worst decision in Court history. Chief Justice Taney held that the Constitution recognized and upheld slavery. It was one of the few times the Court declared an Act of Congress unconstitutional.

It overturned the Missouri Compromise. Dred and his wife, Harriet, were free in Missouri for about two (2) years. There is a devastatingly poignant speech that he made to his friends, one being the sheriff who, at the end of a tough day of labor as a free man, he saw them coming up the hill as dusk with the chains because the Missouri Supreme Court had overturned his case.

I am going to find it and post it.

No man, Muslim or Christian or Wiccan should ever have to be enslaved.

It is really sad to see the rabid allegations of "racism" which makes no sense whatsoever. Watching these guys talk right past each other is actually, hilarious, if it was not so sad.

Adam

[Leonid]

"You being the smart person that you are, surely you understand that Adonis, rightly or wrongly, distinctly separates Jewish persons and Zionist persons into two distinct groups...yes.

And surely, you being as smart as you are, realize that many observers of Islam separate Muslims into Muslim persons and Islamo-Fascist persons...yes."

Adam

The answer to the first question is NO. For Adonis all Jews who claim the right to live in Israel are Zionists. And he's right-they are.

The answer to the second question is YES. See my post above.

Leonid.

You Sir, are quite lost.

I wish you well.

We at least can work together advancing Ayn's ideas.

Adam

Post Script: The reason I stated my post that way is that it really does not matter whether Adonis is a "lying black foot" or a "truthful white foot," you can't see that segment of the world any other way except through your colored prism. Sad.

You've posted cryptic message. Would you like to decipher?

Leonid

[Leonid]

MSK "But I have the feeling that's not what he means."

I already told you that feelings are not tools of cognition. Instead "feeling" you could do much better if you were reading my post properly. In this post I stated clearly that "This compromise is not a hypocrisy but unavoidable consequence of ANY religious faith."

This little divertion of yours only shows that you evade my direct question about your characterization of Adonis in the view of citations I've posted. If you are unwilling or unable to answer, then say so.

Leonid

Edited March 11, 2010 by Leonid

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Leonid,

Gimme a break. You know what I meant by "feeling" in that context. I was not using it as a "tool of cognition" to form a concept. How do you get that stuff so wrong?

On to my main beef with you. You talk out of both sides of your mouth really well. You say you are not a bigot, then say (or strongly insinuate) bigoted things. Then tell people who call you on it "evaders. With other Objectivist insult jargon thrown in for good measure. (Do you even know what that stuff means?)

Heh.

Which side of your mouth do you want me to address, and in what manner so that your other side stays shut?

Michael

[Leonid]

Leonid,

Gimme a break. You know what I meant by "feeling" in that context. I was not using it as a "tool of cognition" to form a concept. How do you get that stuff so wrong?

On to my main beef with you. You talk out of both sides of your mouth really well. You say you are not a bigot, then say (or strongly insinuate) bigoted things. Then tell people who call you on it "evaders. With other Objectivist insult jargon thrown in for good measure. (Do you even know what that stuff means?)

Heh.

Which side of your mouth do you want me to address, and in what manner so that your other side stays shut?

Michael

Michael, I asked you straightford question about your characterization of Adonis. For your convinience I repeat it:

Adonis #163

"So if the tables one day turn and Israel somehow loses military superiority yet still refuses to give a just peace to the Palestinians then war will be the only answer and then I'd support war against the occupation and the expulsion of ALL Zionists from Palestine if they refuse to live in a state that guarantees the rights of all people in that land as a one state solution..

They can go back to Europe and let them take some of the land of the Germans and Italians, they were responsible for the Holocaust, not the Palestinians."

#187

"But, if any Zionists should happen to want to live in a different type of state then so be it, they can leave and head back to Europe, it was the Europeans and their supporters in America that helped spur Hitler and the Nazi Party into power initially and many of whom supported him during the genocide, and therefore, let EUROPE give up some land for a Zionist state to be created in Europe."

In the view of these citations can you confirm your characterization of Adonis as honourable man with noble intentions? Can you give a frank answer? Don't worry about my mouth, just say YES or NO. So far you avoided to do so by using different divertions and by changing subject. This is an evasion.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Leonid

[Selene]

Leonid:

Do your eyes flash when you capitalize the yes and no?

Do you feel empowered by shouting?

Does it get you more truthful answers?

I was just WONDERING...that's all.

Adam

working on a decoder ring for Leonid so he can understand my cryptic posts

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

In the view of these citations can you confirm your characterization of Adonis as honourable man with noble intentions?

Leonid,

I have already said innumerable times, yes, I believe Adonis is an honorable man. And I am aware of these citations.

And no, I do not think his boilerplate us-against-them rhetoric in your examples, with the qualifications you ignore, is a noble intention. I think he is just repeating what is in the air in his world. As to Israel, I believe it is correct to exist where it exists and Adonis knows that.

But I have said all this several times and you keep asking if that is what I think.

Just because I get tired of repeating myself to a person who wants me to become a bigot, that does not mean I am evading. I already answered your questions several times before you asked them.

But to answer once again, I tell you, "Yes, that is what I think."

Is that so hard to understand?

Can I make it clearer? Do you need another language? I only know Portuguese outside of English, but I'm willing to say it in Portuguese. Do you need a flow-chart? A picture? Maybe a story will help? A video? What do you need to get it?

Who is evading? Ask yourself that.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I want something else on record.

Two new threads have been opened up recently on OL in the Mideast section. One is called "Islam" (by Leonid) and the other is called "The Muslims are Taking Over The World" (by Adonis). Both threads were made to present a video and discuss it. Both videos are terribly flawed in terms of logic. Both videos are long on speculation and short on facts, or better, long on ignoring facts. And both videos are loaded emotionally.

What's the conclusion? Were these threads opened to present facts, find common ground and discuss difficult issues? No.

Were they opened to bait people? Yes.

This issue is important. The choice is to try to resolve it or prolong it. These threads are attempts to prolong it.

This is the kind of thing that irritates me and bores me intellectually.

Michael

[anthony]

Adam, Michael,

I think I have to intrude here. I have learned in the past year that you are both extremely fair, benevolent, and independently rational thinkers.

However, I must state, categorically and to the best of my knowledge - Leonid is no bigot.

We have had 4 or 5 chats over lunch here in Jo'burg; always about Objectivist theory, sometimes atheism, and S.African affairs. He is an O'ist through and through, and knows his stuff, better than me. Our only minor difference is that I lean further to the Kelley 'wing', but he sees value in that, too.

We also discussed Israel/Palestine, with some lesser reference to this thread, and Adonis.

Leonid is like a lot of Israelis I have known (but much more unemotional, rational and considered) who live in fear and suspicion of the motives of those they see as having no, zero, good will towards them, or to Jews, in general.

As well they might.

He has heard most of it before. The trickery and deceit that Israel's neighbours conduct themselves with; the hope, followed by disappointment, that is an Israeli's daily diet.

No wonder that skeptism, if not cynicism, is their national characteristic.

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Leonid wants peace for Israel and Palestine. And not only peace, but also justice and a fair deal for the Palestinians - and so does every Israeli, with few exceptions.

He has repeatedly taken Adonis to task for those sweeping and high-handed statements Adonis keeps making. For Leonid, they are insincere statements that could be straight out of the Muslim fundamentalist handbook -I agree. When peace comes at the cost of vulnerability to Israel's present and future enemies, the Arab Peace Initiative that Adonis is pressing, is an empty vessel.

Leonid is a rational, moral, and thoughtful man, who in his time living there, has befriended, and been befriended by Israeli, as well as, Palestinian, Arabs. I have seen not an ounce of hatred in his make-up. If he's bigoted against anything, it's bigotry itself.

What I think you gentlemen are reacting against is more the tone of his posts that might appear hectoring.

True, he has made up his mind about Adonis' motivations being evasions of morality, rather than lack of knowledge. For me, the jury is still out. (All will be revealed with time.)

Well so much for my testimonial on behalf of Leon's good character... now I need to find someone to do the same for me.

Tony

(BTW, this intercession is on my own initiative.)

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Tony,

I appreciate your opinion of Leonid and it is duly noted.

From my end, I have a great deal of difficulty watching someone point the finger at another for "sweeping and high-handed statements" when he makes a ton of them himself--they are present in just about every post. I do not consider that person to be fair and balanced.

You say it's fear more than bigotry? I'm OK with that. It makes sense.

I'm not OK with someone treating me (and others who think like me) as if I were the enemy (or "evading" or any of the other litany of Objectivist insults) just because he is afraid of someone else and doesn't like my fair treatment of that person. And I will not allow this forum to become a propaganda tool to appease that kind of fear.

I don't appease very easily. My values are the things guiding me, not his fear.

Michael

EDIT: Incidentally, have you noticed that when a person is deathly afraid of something, and he is able to convince others to hate what he fears to the point of bigotry, he has no sense of the unfairness with which he treated the people he tried to convince? He doesn't care if they become bigots or not, even if they do so because of lopsided information he supplied.

There's another point, too. In my own life, I am not OK being defended by bigots. I want them a long way away from the things I value. A person who is deathly afraid is OK with being defended by bigots, so long as the bigotry is on his side. I don't respect that.

[Selene]

Tony:

Thanks. I am glad you two were able to get together. I remember, either posting, or sending you an e-mail that you had a co-board member in your neighborhood.

I agree that his posts are edgy in tone, but hell, we are all big boys here.

I can also understand his suspicions about Adonis.

However, for him being an "Objectivist," his use of clearly agenda driven evidence without any concept of qualifiers is very troubling to me.

Furthermore, and this may be a language driven problem, is the way he "lumps" a person who specifically stated their purpose in this argument and "chooses" to misinterpret their language for his own ends.

However, I appreciate your insight, it makes a difference to me.

Adam

[Leonid]

MSK "I have already said innumerable times, yes,"

Thank you, Michael. I just wanted to make sure that you have made your moral judgment while you are fully aware of Adonis' position. For me it's difficult to understand that nobility and honour could be compatible with citations I’ve posted. But this is just me. You apparently know better. I don't have any further questions or comments on this matter

Edited March 12, 2010 by Leonid