The Israeli-Palestinian issue

[BaalChatzaf]

You may be right that Israel should enjoy no moral respect from the rest of the world, but you should understand that by the same yardstick,the Palestinians should also enjoy no moral respect.

Less respect. The Hamas thugs hide behind baby cribs and women's skirts.

The Israelis are very straightforward with their violence and they do not use civilians as shields.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[anthony]

You may be right that Israel should enjoy no moral respect from the rest of the world, but you should understand that by the same yardstick,the Palestinians should also enjoy no moral respect.

Less respect. The Hamas thugs hide behind baby cribs and women's skirts.

The Israelis are very straightforward with their violence and they do not use civilians as shields.

Ba'al Chatzaf

You can already hear the Hamas response to that. Some kind of "the end justifies the means" argument.

Or else some reference to their gallant freedom-fighters doing a David on Goliath act.

Propaganda rules in this part of the world.

As I said, it's not merely an imbalance of military but one of morality, between the two States.

T.

[BaalChatzaf]

You may be right that Israel should enjoy no moral respect from the rest of the world, but you should understand that by the same yardstick,the Palestinians should also enjoy no moral respect.

Less respect. The Hamas thugs hide behind baby cribs and women's skirts.

The Israelis are very straightforward with their violence and they do not use civilians as shields.

Ba'al Chatzaf

You can already hear the Hamas response to that. Some kind of "the end justifies the means" argument.

Or else some reference to their gallant freedom-fighters doing a David on Goliath act.

Propaganda rules in this part of the world.

As I said, it's not merely an imbalance of military but one of morality, between the two States.

T.

Or worse, the excuses the apologists make: What else can the poor Palestinians do except hide behind baby cribs and women's skirts. The mean old Israelis give them no other choice.

If I had to save a Hamas thug from drowning or one of his apologists, I would let the apologist drown first.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Robert Campbell]

You may have heard of Hanan Ashrawi. I don't know what's become of her lately, but around 2000 she was very much on the American airwaves in the role of a Palestinian moderate. She made the appropriate noises about living in peace with Israel as a desirable thing, but in the next breath she would defend suicide bombing aimed at civilians--the sort of thing Hamas and Islamic Jihad specialized in at that time--as morally justified. I know that you don't do that, but that's an illustration of what a "responsible moderate" among the Palestinians thought. Such a person is not actually interested in living in peace with Israel, despite all the pretty words they may say. Perhaps she was fooling herself, but she wouldn't have fooled anyone who actually paid attention to her words.

Jeffrey,

It's been some years since I last saw Hanan Ashrawi on TV. According to her Wikipedia entry she is still active in Palestinian politics, but I suspect has been marginalized with the rise of Hamas.

You should keep in mind that Ashrawi, who was bold enough to quit the Fatah government in 1998 on account of its corruption, would not have survived as long as she has without an extremely clear sense of her political boundaries.

I don't know whether she really approves of suicide bombing or not. It would be difficult to find out. For had she publicly condemned suicide bombing aimed at civilians, I am reasonably sure that she would, in short order, have become a dead Palestinian moderate. Killed, most likely, by a suicide bomber.

Adonis,

Are there reliable figures on the number of Palestinians that Hamas and its operatives have killed?

Who do you think Hamas has killed more of: Israelis or "fellow" Palestinians?

Robert Campbell

[BaalChatzaf]

Who do you think Hamas has killed more of: Israelis or "fellow" Palestinians?

Robert Campbell

Their countrymen. These thugs go after the low hanging fruit first.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited February 4, 2010 by BaalChatzaf

[Leonid]

Ok - Leonid -

And you read what into that awful piece of "poetry"?

Adam

[Leonid]

Adam "And you read what into that awful piece of "poetry"?"

That Adonis in attempt to be holier than ayatollah and to avoid suspicion in infidelity turned himself into a donkey as Abu Ali ibn Sina suggested

[Selene]

Adam "And you read what into that awful piece of "poetry"?"

That Adonis in attempt to be holier than ayatollah and to avoid suspicion in infidelity turned himself into a donkey as Abu Ali ibn Sina suggested

It must be my ignorance, but "When you're with donkey in the mosque..." means that "you" "turn into a donkey"?

Adam

[Leonid]

"It must be my ignorance, but "When you're with donkey in the mosque..." means that "you" "turn into a donkey"?"

No, Adam. For the author a donkey is a stupid bloody Islamist full of self-righteousness, ready to proclaim and execute death fatwa to everybody who he considers as infidel. To avoid such a fate author suggests that when you're together with such a person is better to pretend to be a donkey as well. However I don't know why Adonis decided to turn himself into such a donkey.

[Libertarian Muslim]

"It must be my ignorance, but "When you're with donkey in the mosque..." means that "you" "turn into a donkey"?"

No, Adam. For the author a donkey is a stupid bloody Islamist full of self-righteousness, ready to proclaim and execute death fatwa to everybody who he considers as infidel. To avoid such a fate author suggests that when you're together with such a person is better to pretend to be a donkey as well. However I don't know why Adonis decided to turn himself into such a donkey.

Excuse me?

[Leonid]

Adonis

By suggesting to Jews to go back to Germany you have turned yourself into Abu Ali ibn Sina's donkey in the mosque. Observe that you have adopted old slogans of European anti-Semites. They used to shout “Jews, go back to Israel." Islamists, who follow the trend, shout “Jews, go back to Europe." But both have in mind gas chambers. Don’t you feel ashamed of yourself?

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis

By suggesting to Jews to go back to Germany you have turned yourself into Abu Ali ibn Sina's donkey in the mosque. Observe that you have adopted old slogans of European anti-Semites. They used to shout “Jews, go back to Israel." Islamists, who follow the trend, shout “Jews, go back to Europe." But both have in mind gas chambers. Don’t you feel ashamed of yourself?

Before you start ranting, slandering and misrepresenting what I say, perhaps you should go back and read my comments. At NO stage during this discussion did I or have I ever advocated 'sending the Jews back to Europe', that is YOUR paranoid interpretation and I most certainly didn't say they should be sent to gas chambers either..

Don't YOU ever feel ashamed about misrepresenting what people say to try and prove a point or is it that you have some psychological problem that causes you to immediately read things that aren't written? I'm really serious in asking that question because you seem to have a serious problem there that really needs addressing.. It is you who looks like the donkey here and not me..

You all talked about how Israel conquered the lands of Palestine in the wars and thus they should keep them, I agree that taking over land is conquering it but certain obligations to the citizens of those lands come with such conquests which have not been addressed and that still leaves the issues of the Palestinians that needs to be resolved, are they to be forever refugees in their own land or will they be exiled into another state completely or will Israel accept them as citizens? Well we know the latter option wont happen so then what is the solution? Is it as many Israeli academics and peace workers have stated that Israel's plan is to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from the area as a 'final solution' to this problem.

Therefore, what I did say was that if the there emerges one or more military powers in the region that can compete with Israel through conventional and guerrilla warfare who's governments are not puppets of the US and thus having the ability to turn the tables on Israeli military superiority in the region which aside from it's 200+ nuclear weapons has already been shown to be now a paper tiger after the 2006 war in Lebanon where Israel was outrightly defeated by Hezbollah and still the Israelis refuse to negotiate a just peace agreement then it would obviously require further action.

That is, if the situation gets so bad for the Palestinians in terms of human rights and diplomacy fails and that the only option to avoid a humanitarian disaster is for a one or more of these regional powers to militarily intervene to restore the Palestinian people's rights and a war ensues to bring the Israelis back to the negotiating table and yet still the Israelis refuse to accept a just peace agreement then clearly, the only option left to ensure the rights of Palestinians would be to militarily take over aka 'Conquer' Israel like they had conquered the Palestinian territories in 1948 and 1967 and create a one state solution where all people, regardless of race or religion should be able to live there with equal rights... There won't be any massacres or anything like that of the Jews, they can stay and live freely.

This is in line with Islamic history where in many occasions the inhabitants of a country that fought the Muslims were forgiven and not massacred whether it was the Quraish of Mecca once it was taken over or whether it was the Christians of the Crusader State, the majority of whom were sent back to Europe freely.

But, if any Zionists should happen to want to live in a different type of state then so be it, they can leave and head back to Europe, it was the Europeans and their supporters in America that helped spur Hitler and the Nazi Party into power initially and many of whom supported him during the genocide, and therefore, let EUROPE give up some land for a Zionist state to be created in Europe.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[Libertarian Muslim]

And what kind of peace agreement in your opinion would be fair?

Arab Peace Initiative

Was UN resolution in 1947 to create Arab and Jewish state in Palestine fair enough?

Is it fair for foreigners who don't belong in that land to decide the fate of the people in it, including what should happen with their lands? No, this was not a peace agreement it was a proposal to split the lands which were supposed to become Palestine according to the British Mandate of Palestine and give more than half of it away to people who didn't own it and create a state where there was no right, the majority of such people were recent refugees from Europe..

Is it fair to give half of Australia away to Afghan refugees who are fleeing the war simply because they would want their own country due to being persecuted by the Taliban and genocide has been committed against them and because they feel some connection to the land due to the significant Afghan cameleer population that came to help build the telegraph network and of those who did remain and didn't go back married into indigenous Australian communities more than 200 years prior a time which was much more recent than when the Jews claim to have exile from biblical Israel?

Apparently not, since Arab States flatly refused to accept it-they needed all Palestine to divide between them. Jews in their opinion could go back to Germany, to be stateless prosecuted minority as Adonis suggests.

I'm not saying Jews should go back to Germany at all, I explained this in an earlier post, although the Palestinians shouldn't suffer for the actions of the Germans and forget that rubbish that was brought up before about the Mufti of Palestine, he was a joke and his significance was limited in the grand scheme of things.. If you want to talk about real support for Hitler all you need to do is see the real criminals, the Germans, the Vatican, the Italian government, some of the British royal family, look at Prescott Bush, GW Bush's grandfather and his support through bank rolling the Nazis and supplying them with goods.. These are the criminals who should be paying for it.. The Palestinians don't have blood on their hands like these people.. Heck, there are some Zionists like those in the Stern Gang who approached Hitler seeking his support in removing the British from the lands who have more blood on their hands than the Palestinians.

Then in 1967 Nasser decided that even that is too good for Jews and they should go straight to the sea. Israel again defeated Arab aggression and, after victory offered to return all territories which Israel acquired in the process of defensive war.

Let's not forget that it was the rabid Zionists armies who pushed the Palestinians into the sea in 1948 and forced many to leave by ship as they executed their plan to ethnically cleanse the land of Arabs because having Israel 60% Jew wasn't going to be 'stable' enough for them.. There was an exodus of more than 450,000 Palestinians as refugees in response to the massacres of Palestinians that were perpetrated by Zionist militias such as that in Dier Yasin.

Defensive war? Hilarious! I also will remind you that contrary to your propaganda, in the 1967 war, the Arabs were NOT aggressors at all, it was the ISRAELIS who attacked and launched a war against the all of the different parties and had been practicing and rehearsing that war for at least two years prior to it occurring.. The fact is that in all but only a few of the wars that have been fought it was the Israelis that launched the wars claiming that they were 'pre-emptive', just like they are now claiming to intend to do with Hezbollah in Lebanon and are threatening to do against Iran, a move which will most certainly harm Israel like they'd never been harmed before.. Unless of course, Israel is willing to take the Samson Option and let the Nuclear Genie out of the bottle.. But that would only make it worse.

The only thing Israel asked in exchange was peace. Not fair enough! Arabs answered with 3 big NO: No to recognition of Israel, No to negotiations, No to peace. (See Khartoum conference).

Not true, Egypt offered this to the Israelis before the war in 1973 and Israel kept refusing, and so they launched a war to regain some of their territory and negotiate for the return of the rest of the Sinai..

In 1979 Anwar Saadat signed peace agreement with Israel. Again not good enough. Saadat paid with his life.

No Sadat paid for other reasons..

Egypt maintains cold peace and very hot anti-Jewish propaganda mainly imported from Nazi Germany.

You mean the fact that you can buy books like Mein Kampf on the streets in Cairo and Damascus? Big deal! I can buy them in Borders and on Amazon and there's no law against it here.. Censorship is wrong.. But I guess you're all for it when it suits you right?

In the year 2000 Ehud Barak, Israeli Prime Minister offered to Arafat ALL TERRITORIES including East Jerusalem. Not fair at all! Arafat refused and started intifada.

Haha, another myth.. Israel offered no such thing, Israel offered a non-state to the Palestinians, preventing them from being able to control their own borders and airspace, having no sovereignty at all.. How is that an offer to return lands? What utter rubbish, so much disinformation I just don't know where to start..

Also, Arafat didn't start the intifada based on that at all, it was the audacity of the butcher Ariel Sharon going onto the area of Al Aqsa that began it..

His suicide bombers killed hundreds of innocent people-Jews and Arabs.

Even though, as previously mentioned I disagree with the tactic of suicide bombing, the bombers themselves targeted mostly Israeli soldiers, unfortunately in most cases however they were surrounded by civilians which in my opinion means such attacks should have been aborted, however Israel is guilty of not caring about 'collateral damage' and would prefer destroying a whole neighborhood full of people with bombs than to lose an Israeli soldier.. I saw it when I went to Dahiya in Beirut, Lebanon, a whole quarter where hundreds of thousands of people lived destroyed by Israeli bombs because they were considered to 'support terrorists'...

In 2007 Israel withdrew from Gaza strip, dismantled 9 prosperous settlements and forcible removed thousands of Jewish settlers who lived there for more than 30 years. Was it fair?

Haha, you mean the 9 settlements it dismantled in Gaza and then rebuilt in the West Bank in addition to several more? Oh please.. more Half truths to deceive..

Obviously not. Otherwise why such a peace loving organization as Hamas would kick off Abu Mazen (Mahmood Abbas) and his terrorist “freedom fighters” from Gaza, take over the strip and establish the reign of terror against Israel and their own people?

Oh please, Fatah lost the elections and refused to relinquish power to Hamas, when people protested Fatah started kidnapping protestors and Hamas supporters off the street and torturing them.. So Hamas seized power which they won through elections..

Also, this 'reign of terror' that they've supposedly had against their own people is rubbish.. What reign of terror? Where is the real evidence of such.. This is just propaganda by the West..

It seems that for people like Arafat, Khaleed Meshall or Adonis nothing is fair enough except summary collective suicide of Israel.

I'd like to assure Adonis and others of that ilk that this is not going to happen. Israel is here to stay. And not because military but moral superiority. Israel means peace, prosperity, freedom, development and happiness not only to Jews but to all people of Middle East. And shukr Allah, people of Middle East, unlike Adonis, start to understand that.

No, I think you don't understand it.. The fact is that due to Israel's policies and the way it runs internally, especially in terms of it's economy, it wont be able to sustain itself in the future and so, it will collapse and one day the US won't be able to bail it out any longer with aid.. Don't worry, the bully doesn't always hold the power, things change and the bully ends up paying for their crimes in most cases.. It's bound to happen in this case.. Israel can't keep military superiority, look how they got their rears handed to them by Hezbollah in 2006 and they are only a guerrilla group with limited weapons..

Imagine what would happen if it comes to a real regional power like Iran who arms and trains Hezbollah with all their significantly more advanced military tactics and technology?

The myth of the Invincible Israeli Military has been squashed.. If Israel crosses the line and attacks Iran, then you can count on a military response on many fronts that would be overwhelming for not only Israel, but also the US military in the Gulf and Afghanistan.. I can assure you, the response has been well prepared for if Iran is ever attacked, which it has the right to do because it's not Iran threatening to attack Israel, it's the other way around..

[anthony]

Hello again Adonis,

That there's fighting words, buster. Sadly predictable, but now it seems you are showing your true colours.

"You big bully, just wait when I tell my brother (Iran)- he's bigger than you, and you gonna get it!"

Where is that peace-loving Adonis now? Seems I was right, it's not about reconciliation and 'justice', it's all about who wins the fight... and god help the Jews/'Zionists' if they EVER lose one war.

This new bombast of yours is wearily familiar.

I've been wondering from the start 1. the source of all your 'facts' and information; 2. who do you represent?

This hard-line, mainstream Arab rhetoric was familiar to many of us way, way, before you were even born:-

In the build-up to hostilities - hate speech, fervour, arrogant pride, threats, beating of the collective chest;

after the war - woe is me , feel compassion for our repressed people, our homeless women and children, a most terrible injustice has occurred (ie, we lost again).

Western liberals have been swallowing this whole, and believing it, the idiots.

To repeat, Israel want peace more than anyone, and the Arab world is happy to continue blocking it.

You are putting over the same old party line - even if you sincerely believe that all ideas are your own.

(Is this from that organisation you are tight with, that you alluded to earlier? Have you checked them out? Sounds suspect.)

Tony

[BaalChatzaf]

Western liberals have been swallowing this whole, and believing it, the idiots.

To repeat, Israel want peace more than anyone, and the Arab world is happy to continue blocking it.

You are putting over the same old party line - even if you sincerely believe that all ideas are your own.

(Is this from that organisation you are tight with, that you alluded to earlier? Have you checked them out? Sounds suspect.)

Tony

I see you caught the drift. Mazel Tov (Congratulations).

There goes your Muslim; different mountain, different god.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

The fact is that due to Israel's policies and the way it runs internally, especially in terms of it's economy, it wont be able to sustain itself in the future and so, it will collapse and one day the US won't be able to bail it out any longer with aid..

Adonis,

Fact?

How do you know this?

This is pure speculation being presented as fact.

This is one of the rhetorical methods I intensely dislike in this kind of debate. The pro-Israel side does it, too. Even here in this discussion, some people are speculating about your motives and presenting them as fact. This is wrong. When speculation underpins a discussion, anything goes. The only thing that usually does not remain is rationality.

Speculation is not a good premise for an argument unless one is doing scenario studies.

But speculation is a good premise for one thing: it is a good premise for... speculation.

The fact is that facts are so much better for understanding reality.

The more heated an issue is, the more adherence to the facts are needed if reason is to prevail.

Michael

[Libertarian Muslim]

Hello again Adonis,

That there's fighting words, buster. Sadly predictable, but now it seems you are showing your true colours.

"You big bully, just wait when I tell my brother (Iran)- he's bigger than you, and you gonna get it!"

Where is that peace-loving Adonis now? Seems I was right, it's not about reconciliation and 'justice', it's all about who wins the fight... and god help the Jews/'Zionists' if they EVER lose one war.

This new bombast of yours is wearily familiar.

I've been wondering from the start 1. the source of all your 'facts' and information; 2. who do you represent?

This hard-line, mainstream Arab rhetoric was familiar to many of us way, way, before you were even born:-

In the build-up to hostilities - hate speech, fervour, arrogant pride, threats, beating of the collective chest;

after the war - woe is me , feel compassion for our repressed people, our homeless women and children, a most terrible injustice has occurred (ie, we lost again).

Western liberals have been swallowing this whole, and believing it, the idiots.

To repeat, Israel want peace more than anyone, and the Arab world is happy to continue blocking it.

You are putting over the same old party line - even if you sincerely believe that all ideas are your own.

(Is this from that organisation you are tight with, that you alluded to earlier? Have you checked them out? Sounds suspect.)

Tony

Oh please,

I am all for peace, but not at the expense of justice.. Without justice there can be no peace and it's funny how Zionists can expect justice for themselves after WW2 but then so quickly refuse to give justice to others..

I am talking about justice and that's what I've always talked about, it's only someone who would promote injustice that would fear and try and stop a person who has been a victim of violence and oppression from themselves retaliating with violence.. You would rather them just lay down and die quietly.. To suffer peacefully because it's too inconvenient for you to have your own sins and crimes against humanity brought right back up in your face.. Al-Shaheed Malik Al-Shabazz (Malcolm X) made it clear about people like you, sure he was referring to the conditions of African Americans but it was very clear about how the Anglo/American/European system of world domination through smoking mirrors worked and continues to work..

"There is nothing in our book, the Koran, that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion. In fact, that's that old-time religion. That's the one that Ma and Pa used to talk about: an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, and a head for a head, and a life for a life. That's a good religion. And nobody resents that kind of religion being taught but a wolf, who intends to make you his meal.

This is the way it is with the white man in America. He's a wolf and you're sheep. Any time a shepherd, a pastor, teaches you and me not to run from the white man and, at the same time, teaches us not to fight the white man, he's a traitor to you and me. Don't lay down a life all by itself. No, preserve your life, it's the best thing you've got. And if you've got to give it up, let it be even-steven."

(Malcolm X- Message to the Grassroots)

It is YOU who've been talking about Israel conquering lands and using that as a justification, and yet when I say that if it's okay for Israel, it's okay for others to do so you have a problem with that, because of course you don't believe that anyone but Israel has the right to conquer lands.. Again, this displays your hypocrisy..

Regarding violence, I have set conditions on when I believe violence would be appropriate and they are:

1. if Israel attacks Iran first militarily, then Iran has the right to retaliate militarily.

2. If Israel continues the way that it is going in terms of oppressing the Palestinians and doesn't cease come to a just peace agreement, then if, God forbid all diplomatic avenues have been exhausted it should come down to war to get that justice..

There's nothing wrong with either of those.. What if we replace some names around and it were:

1. If Japan attacks the US first militarily, then the US has the right to retaliate militarily.

and

2. If Nazi Germany continues the way that it is going in terms of oppressing the Jews and doesn't cease and come to a just peace agreement with the allies, then if, God forbid all diplomatic avenues have been exhausted it should come down to a war to get that justice..

We KNOW in WW2 the US had the right of retaliation against the Japanese EVEN THOUGH it was the US who sunk a Japanese ship submarine prior to the attacks on Pearl Harbor and we ALSO KNOW that not only did we go to war against Nazi Germany for refusing to stop persecuting the Jews, but that even if it had agreed to a peace agreement it wouldn't have worked because their government was so dangerous that it HAD to be removed..

Did I hear anyone complain when a coalition of nations rightly went to war to help the Jews in WW2? No.. Why should they complain? It's standing up for justice.

Or even when Israelis when to war with no right? No... I didn't..

Yet you then have an issue with people who are facing injustice resorting to violence when diplomatic means have failed.. How hypocritical, it's just another example of how it's okay for Europeans to use violence whether it's to get justice or spread injustice, but how it's not okay for non-Europeans to use violence to get justice..

The fact is that due to Israel's policies and the way it runs internally, especially in terms of it's economy, it wont be able to sustain itself in the future and so, it will collapse and one day the US won't be able to bail it out any longer with aid..

Adonis,

Fact?

How do you know this?

This is pure speculation being presented as fact.

This is one of the rhetorical methods I intensely dislike in this kind of debate. The pro-Israel side does it, too. Even here in this discussion, some people are speculating about your motives and presenting them as fact. This is wrong. When speculation underpins a discussion, anything goes. The only thing that usually does not remain is rationality.

Speculation is not a good premise for an argument unless one is doing scenario studies.

But speculation is a good premise for one thing: it is a good premise for... speculation.

The fact is that facts are so much better for understanding reality.

The more heated an issue is, the more adherence to the facts are needed if reason is to prevail.

Michael

Have you even studied how Israel's economy works and how heavily it relies on foreign aid Michael? Perhaps go and do that before dismissing what I say as mere speculation..

I also find funny how I now see you intervene and comment but when I'm being directly and unfairly accused of promoting genocide and advocating the sending of Jews to gas chambers, a disgusting and despicable slander and insulted on this site you're then nowhere to be found.. Yet you claim to be against bigotry and that bigots should find another site.. Forgive me Michael but sometimes I wonder if you're selective in your application of that..

[Selene]

But speculation is a good premise for one thing: it is a good premise for... speculation.

The fact is that facts are so much better for understanding reality.

The more heated an issue is, the more adherence to the facts are needed if reason is to prevail.

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable

Mark Twain

aka Samuel Langhorne Clemons

US humorist, novelist, short story author, & wit (1835 - 1910)

When I was teaching rhetoric during the sixties, to put it mildly "heated" "discussion" and argument was a given. This has been true throughout history for heaven's sake.

One of the most difficult achievements of the independent human mind is to be able to be passionate, but objective. Facts are what matter.

I know that is what I rigidly demanded of my students, my colleagues and my fellow citizens. I still demand it today.

This thread could provide an observer of a great example of how to be passionate, but objective.

I also would like to see some "facts" and the assumptive context we are supposed to evaluate those "facts" and by what standard that "fact" will be evaluated by.

Unfortunately, that will mean Ms. Xray will not be able to participate, but there are those special little joys of rationality.

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I also find funny how I now see you intervene and comment but when I'm being directly and unfairly accused of promoting genocide and advocating the sending of Jews to gas chambers, a disgusting and despicable slander and insulted on this site you're then nowhere to be found.. Yet you claim to be against bigotry and that bigots should find another site.. Forgive me Michael but sometimes I wonder if you're selective in your application of that..

Adonis,

I suggest you read my posts, or reread them a little bit more carefully before making that claim.

When I have seen you handle yourself quite well, I have not intervened. But I have intervened a few times. The way this discussion has unfolded, though, things are really close to the line, too close for my comfort.

For example, I don't know what all this talk about Iran is all of a sudden. There are no "rights" in war. That concept is just hot air in light of reality. Throughout all of human history, war is slaughter of human beings. The ones who win are the ones who slaughter or imprison or otherwise overcome the leaders and armed forces of the opponent with the greatest competence. End of story.

That may not be the way it should be, but that is the way it is.

If you think I selectively omit, I am also observing your discourse in light of many of the things I bring up. I have seen very few of them addressed as you repeat your extremely selective pro-Hamas anti-Zionist interpretations of history and policies. I happen to agree with many of the things your have presented (the whole USA intervention for oil thing, for instance, turns my stomach), but I am also not in agreement with many, especially your understanding of Zionism. I equate it to something like trying to call all Southern Baptists KKK sympathizers and racists. I have presented a lot of research for both agreements and disagreements. In general, I see you ignore my stuff.

That's really selective in my book.

I suggest a lighter tone than insinuating hypocrisy when you don't like what I write. Especially if you are going to continue ignoring most of what I write in the manner you have up until now.

Michael

[Leonid]

Adonis

It's much easier to dismiss any argument as half-truth or propaganda, than to learn historical facts, especially those, which don't fit your ideology. Facts which you don't like, you simply ignore (like 3 No's of Khartoum conference) or deny like indisputable facts that Arab countries were aggressors against Israel in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973, or well known fact that Egyptian government controlled media is full of rabid anti-Jewish propaganda which includes cartoons copied straight from Nazi press. In regard to the history of Palestinians, your account is so perverted, that I cannot spend all the time needed to correct it. Instead of using biased sources of Arab propaganda I suggest that you, as exercise in honest enquiry, read for a change a book named “Hajj" by Leon Uris. But nevermind historical books, don't you read daily newspapers? It is Israel, who currently promotes negotiations with Palestinians and this is Abbas who refuses to renew them. It is Israel, who wants to negotiate peace with Syria and this is Basher Asad, Syrian president, who gives inflamed war speeches. Your talk about military superiority of Israel is simply preposterous. Did you ever bothered to compare military ability of the nation of 7 million people with that of 150 million? Israel never won the war as result of sheer military superiority. Israel always won on the moral ground-that is, Israeli soldier knows what he fights for. He fights for the right to live in his land as a free man, free from religious and ethnic oppression which is so common in Muslim world. He fights for his country, Israel, the only guarantee that he won't become again rightless, prosecuted refugee in Germany, Italy, Poland or Russia, as his ancestors used to be during last 2000 years. He fights for his very life. The Muslim soldier has nothing to fight for. Nobody wants to send him back to Arab peninsula, were his ancestors came from, conquering 30 countries, including Land of Israel. Nobody calls his home" "Muslim entity cancer" which should be eliminated. Nobody threatens his existence. Palestinian Arabs know only too well that without Israel their future state will be an empty fiction. Israel used to provide over 200000 jobs to Palestinians, before Intifada, and still provides water, electricity, communication, health and many other services for free to the people of Gaza who pay back with kassams missiles. Do you think they will really fight to eliminate the only source of their welfare, their only hope to live one day as proud, free civilized prosperous human beings? They are not that stupid. That why you and your ilk put your hope on Iran. Yes, learned Ayatollahs, whom you cannot disqualify as ignorant in Qur'an, hang high their own political dissenters, brutally oppress their own people and aspire to bring Holy Qur'an to the world by nuclear missiles. They currently busy to enrich uranium to 20%, far more, than needed for nuclear fuel but just right for the nuclear bomb. They don't mind to turn all Middle East and large portions of the world into radioactive desert only in order to eliminate "Zionist entity". Well, Adonis. As old proverb goes “Tell me who are your friends and I can tell who you are."

Edited February 9, 2010 by Leonid

[Selene]

Adonis

It's much easier to dismiss any argument as half-truth or propaganda, than to learn historical facts, especially those, which don't fit your ideology. Facts which you don't like, you simply ignore (like 3 No's of Khartoum conference) or deny like indisputable facts that Arab countries were aggressors against Israel in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973, or well known fact that Egyptian government controlled media is full of rabid anti-Jewish propaganda which includes cartoons copied straight from Nazi press. In regard to the history of Palestinians, your account is so perverted, that I cannot spend all the time needed to correct it. Instead of using biased sources of Arab propaganda I suggest that you, as exercise in honest enquiry, read for a change a book named “Hajj" by Leon Uris. But nevermind historical books, don't you read daily newspapers? It is Israel, who currently promotes negotiations with Palestinians and this is Abbas who refuses to renew them. It is Israel, who wants to negotiate peace with Syria and this is Basher Asad, Syrian president, who gives inflamed war speeches. Your talk about military superiority of Israel is simply preposterous. Did you ever bothered to compare military ability of the nation of 7 million people with that of 150 million? Israel never won the war as result of sheer military superiority. Israel always won on the moral ground-that is, Israeli soldier knows what he fights for. He fights for the right to live in his land as a free man, free from religious and ethnic oppression which is so common in Muslim world. He fights for his country, Israel, the only guarantee that he won't become again rightless, prosecuted refugee in Germany, Italy, Poland or Russia, as his ancestors used to be during last 2000 years. He fights for his very life. The Muslim soldier has nothing to fight for. Nobody wants to send him back to Arab peninsula, were his ancestors came from, conquering 30 countries, including Land of Israel. Nobody calls his home" "Muslim entity cancer" which should be eliminated. Nobody threaten his existence. Palestinian Arabs know only too well that without Israel their future state will be an empty fiction. Israel used to provide over 200000 jobs to Palestinians, before Intifada, and still provides water, electricity, communication, health and many other services for free to the people of Gaza who pay back with kassams missiles. Do you think they will really fight to eliminate the only source of their welfare, their only hope to live one day as proud, free civilized prosperous human beings? They are not that stupid. That why you and your ilk put your hope on Iran. Yes, learned Ayatollahs, whom you cannot disqualify as ignorant in Qur'an, hang high their own political dissenters, brutally oppress their own people and aspire to bring Holy Qur'an to the world by nuclear missiles. They currently busy to enrich uranium to 20%, far more, than needed for nuclear fuel but just right for the nuclear bomb. They don't mind to turn all Middle East and large portions of the world into radioactive desert only in order to eliminate "Zionist entity". Well, Adonis. As old proverb goes “Tell me who are your friends and I can tell who you are."

The red highlights are pure assertions, Leonid. They may all be absolutely true. However, you give no proof.

The blue highlight would allow you to produce the "pictures" of both. This would allow an independent observer, myself, with the professional training to evaluate the probative value of the evidenciary facts.

Adam

looking forward to the presentation of the facts

[Leonid]

Hello again Adonis,

That there's fighting words, buster. Sadly predictable, but now it seems you are showing your true colours.

"You big bully, just wait when I tell my brother (Iran)- he's bigger than you, and you gonna get it!"

Where is that peace-loving Adonis now? Seems I was right, it's not about reconciliation and 'justice', it's all about who wins the fight... and god help the Jews/'Zionists' if they EVER lose one war.

This new bombast of yours is wearily familiar.

I've been wondering from the start 1. the source of all your 'facts' and information; 2. who do you represent?

This hard-line, mainstream Arab rhetoric was familiar to many of us way, way, before you were even born:-

In the build-up to hostilities - hate speech, fervour, arrogant pride, threats, beating of the collective chest;

after the war - woe is me , feel compassion for our repressed people, our homeless women and children, a most terrible injustice has occurred (ie, we lost again).

Western liberals have been swallowing this whole, and believing it, the idiots.

To repeat, Israel want peace more than anyone, and the Arab world is happy to continue blocking it.

You are putting over the same old party line - even if you sincerely believe that all ideas are your own.

(Is this from that organisation you are tight with, that you alluded to earlier? Have you checked them out? Sounds suspect.)

Tony

Oh please,

I am all for peace, but not at the expense of justice.. Without justice there can be no peace and it's funny how Zionists can expect justice for themselves after WW2 but then so quickly refuse to give justice to others..

I am talking about justice and that's what I've always talked about, it's only someone who would promote injustice that would fear and try and stop a person who has been a victim of violence and oppression from themselves retaliating with violence.. You would rather them just lay down and die quietly.. To suffer peacefully because it's too inconvenient for you to have your own sins and crimes against humanity brought right back up in your face.. Al-Shaheed Malik Al-Shabazz (Malcolm X) made it clear about people like you, sure he was referring to the conditions of African Americans but it was very clear about how the Anglo/American/European system of world domination through smoking mirrors worked and continues to work..

"There is nothing in our book, the Koran, that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion. In fact, that's that old-time religion. That's the one that Ma and Pa used to talk about: an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, and a head for a head, and a life for a life. That's a good religion. And nobody resents that kind of religion being taught but a wolf, who intends to make you his meal.

This is the way it is with the white man in America. He's a wolf and you're sheep. Any time a shepherd, a pastor, teaches you and me not to run from the white man and, at the same time, teaches us not to fight the white man, he's a traitor to you and me. Don't lay down a life all by itself. No, preserve your life, it's the best thing you've got. And if you've got to give it up, let it be even-steven."

(Malcolm X- Message to the Grassroots)

It is YOU who've been talking about Israel conquering lands and using that as a justification, and yet when I say that if it's okay for Israel, it's okay for others to do so you have a problem with that, because of course you don't believe that anyone but Israel has the right to conquer lands.. Again, this displays your hypocrisy..

Regarding violence, I have set conditions on when I believe violence would be appropriate and they are:

1. if Israel attacks Iran first militarily, then Iran has the right to retaliate militarily.

2. If Israel continues the way that it is going in terms of oppressing the Palestinians and doesn't cease come to a just peace agreement, then if, God forbid all diplomatic avenues have been exhausted it should come down to war to get that justice..

There's nothing wrong with either of those.. What if we replace some names around and it were:

1. If Japan attacks the US first militarily, then the US has the right to retaliate militarily.

and

2. If Nazi Germany continues the way that it is going in terms of oppressing the Jews and doesn't cease and come to a just peace agreement with the allies, then if, God forbid all diplomatic avenues have been exhausted it should come down to a war to get that justice..

We KNOW in WW2 the US had the right of retaliation against the Japanese EVEN THOUGH it was the US who sunk a Japanese ship submarine prior to the attacks on Pearl Harbor and we ALSO KNOW that not only did we go to war against Nazi Germany for refusing to stop persecuting the Jews, but that even if it had agreed to a peace agreement it wouldn't have worked because their government was so dangerous that it HAD to be removed..

Did I hear anyone complain when a coalition of nations rightly went to war to help the Jews in WW2? No.. Why should they complain? It's standing up for justice.

Or even when Israelis when to war with no right? No... I didn't..

Yet you then have an issue with people who are facing injustice resorting to violence when diplomatic means have failed.. How hypocritical, it's just another example of how it's okay for Europeans to use violence whether it's to get justice or spread injustice, but how it's not okay for non-Europeans to use violence to get justice..

The fact is that due to Israel's policies and the way it runs internally, especially in terms of it's economy, it wont be able to sustain itself in the future and so, it will collapse and one day the US won't be able to bail it out any longer with aid..

Adonis,

Fact?

How do you know this?

This is pure speculation being presented as fact.

This is one of the rhetorical methods I intensely dislike in this kind of debate. The pro-Israel side does it, too. Even here in this discussion, some people are speculating about your motives and presenting them as fact. This is wrong. When speculation underpins a discussion, anything goes. The only thing that usually does not remain is rationality.

Speculation is not a good premise for an argument unless one is doing scenario studies.

But speculation is a good premise for one thing: it is a good premise for... speculation.

The fact is that facts are so much better for understanding reality.

The more heated an issue is, the more adherence to the facts are needed if reason is to prevail.

Michael

Have you even studied how Israel's economy works and how heavily it relies on foreign aid Michael? Perhaps go and do that before dismissing what I say as mere speculation..

I also find funny how I now see you intervene and comment but when I'm being directly and unfairly accused of promoting genocide and advocating the sending of Jews to gas chambers, a disgusting and despicable slander and insulted on this site you're then nowhere to be found.. Yet you claim to be against bigotry and that bigots should find another site.. Forgive me Michael but sometimes I wonder if you're selective in your application of that..

[Leonid]

Adonis: "Have you even studied how Israel's economy works and how heavily it relies on foreign aid Michael?"

Have you?

Adonis "The fact is that due to Israel's policies and the way it runs internally, especially in terms of it's economy, it wont be able to sustain itself in the future and so, it will collapse and one day the US won't be able to bail it out any longer with aid.."

From you post I've learned that you haven't. Do you know that Israel was the 1st country in the world which recovered from the current depression? Do you know that Israel attracts more venture capital than Germany and France combined? Do you know that so called American aid is mostly political fiction? This aid is a loan which Israel repays with interest and this money Israel allowed to spend only in US which provides many jobs to Americans? Actually Israel subsidies American military industry. In any case this loan represents no more than 5% of Israeli annual budget.

Adonis "it will collapse and one day the US won't be able to bail it out any longer with aid...”

You whish...Whishes aren't fishes. Stop dreaming.

[Leonid]

Adonis

It's much easier to dismiss any argument as half-truth or propaganda, than to learn historical facts, especially those, which don't fit your ideology. Facts which you don't like, you simply ignore (like 3 No's of Khartoum conference) or deny like indisputable facts that Arab countries were aggressors against Israel in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973, or well known fact that Egyptian government controlled media is full of rabid anti-Jewish propaganda which includes cartoons copied straight from Nazi press. In regard to the history of Palestinians, your account is so perverted, that I cannot spend all the time needed to correct it. Instead of using biased sources of Arab propaganda I suggest that you, as exercise in honest enquiry, read for a change a book named “Hajj" by Leon Uris. But nevermind historical books, don't you read daily newspapers? It is Israel, who currently promotes negotiations with Palestinians and this is Abbas who refuses to renew them. It is Israel, who wants to negotiate peace with Syria and this is Basher Asad, Syrian president, who gives inflamed war speeches. Your talk about military superiority of Israel is simply preposterous. Did you ever bothered to compare military ability of the nation of 7 million people with that of 150 million? Israel never won the war as result of sheer military superiority. Israel always won on the moral ground-that is, Israeli soldier knows what he fights for. He fights for the right to live in his land as a free man, free from religious and ethnic oppression which is so common in Muslim world. He fights for his country, Israel, the only guarantee that he won't become again rightless, prosecuted refugee in Germany, Italy, Poland or Russia, as his ancestors used to be during last 2000 years. He fights for his very life. The Muslim soldier has nothing to fight for. Nobody wants to send him back to Arab peninsula, were his ancestors came from, conquering 30 countries, including Land of Israel. Nobody calls his home" "Muslim entity cancer" which should be eliminated. Nobody threaten his existence. Palestinian Arabs know only too well that without Israel their future state will be an empty fiction. Israel used to provide over 200000 jobs to Palestinians, before Intifada, and still provides water, electricity, communication, health and many other services for free to the people of Gaza who pay back with kassams missiles. Do you think they will really fight to eliminate the only source of their welfare, their only hope to live one day as proud, free civilized prosperous human beings? They are not that stupid. That why you and your ilk put your hope on Iran. Yes, learned Ayatollahs, whom you cannot disqualify as ignorant in Qur'an, hang high their own political dissenters, brutally oppress their own people and aspire to bring Holy Qur'an to the world by nuclear missiles. They currently busy to enrich uranium to 20%, far more, than needed for nuclear fuel but just right for the nuclear bomb. They don't mind to turn all Middle East and large portions of the world into radioactive desert only in order to eliminate "Zionist entity". Well, Adonis. As old proverb goes “Tell me who are your friends and I can tell who you are."

The red highlights are pure assertions, Leonid. They may all be absolutely true. However, you give no proof.

The blue highlight would allow you to produce the "pictures" of both. This would allow an independent observer, myself, with the professional training to evaluate the probative value of the evidenciary facts.

Adam

looking forward to the presentation of the facts

[Leonid]

Selene

The first sentence you underlighted is general premise. Exactly which facts you want me to prove? In regard to Khartoum's resolution see the site " Palestine facts"

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_khartoum.php

Also http://www.sixdaywar.org/content/khartoum.asp

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/three_noes.html

In regard to Isreali-Arab wars see

http://www.bukisa.com/articles/25862_the-arab-israeli-wars

http://modern-war.suite101.com/article.cfm/four_arab_israeli_wars

In regard to anti-Jewish propaganda see

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=arab+antisemitic+cartoons&ei=utf-8&fr=b1ie7