The OL "tribe" and the Tribal Mindset

[Robert Campbell]

It may well be that Gary Hull's recent appearance on SOLOP was coincidental.

What doesn't look coincidental is the absence of posts by Jim Valliant since Lindsay Perigo's tirade on the theme of "I'll Be Seeing You."

The official James Valliant Flounce Watch is under way...

Robert Campbell

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Jim,

Since you are vouching so hard for the guy, I will back up to about 50-50 in my mind.

But for the life of me, I don't know how my speculation can be considered as any kind of "grand plan" by anyone. To me it's petty.

That kind of stuff always was petty and it always will be petty. It doesn't grow into "grand." It can grow to Stalin-size, though, (or even Jim Jones size) and become pure evil. But I doubt anything done by ARI--or SLOP for that matter--would ever get to that level.

Maybe I didn't communicate my low opinion of that cult stuff all that well.

Michael

[Selene]

It may well be that Gary Hull's recent appearance on SOLOP was coincidental.

What doesn't look coincidental is the absence of posts by Jim Valliant since Lindsay Perigo's tirade on the theme of "I'll Be Seeing You."

The official James Valliant Flounce Watch is under way...

Robert Campbell

And people laughed at me when I bought these special flounce lens binoculars! Ha!

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Jim,

Since you are vouching so hard for the guy, I will back up to about 50-50 in my mind.

But for the life of me, I don't know how my speculation can be considered as any kind of "grand plan" by anyone. To me it's petty.

That kind of stuff always was petty and it always will be petty. It doesn't grow into "grand." It can grow to Stalin-size, though, (or even Jim Jones size) and become pure evil. But I doubt anything done by ARI--or SLOP for that matter--would ever get to that level.

Maybe I didn't communicate my low opinion of that cult stuff all that well.

Michael

Michael,

There is a high pressure you're with us or agin us side to Gary, but there's also a side that really cares if people learn about ideas. I think the social posturing at ARI is silly and really not conducive to making intellectual progress. It's weird though when you see people talking about people that you know or have known and completely missing the mark.

I agree with you that the gamesmanship is stupid. It's also trench warfare over territory that I don't think is very valuable on any "side" and so I look at it as a very small sandbox fight. I think that a lot of smart people are working in a lot of intellectual areas that are not very fertile and won't change much in the next 50 years.

Jim

[Ellen Stuttle]

What doesn't look coincidental is the absence of posts by Jim Valliant since Lindsay Perigo's tirade on the theme of "I'll Be Seeing You."

James Valliant's most recent SOLO post -- #85280, "The Atlas Society Marks Its 20th Anniversary!" thread -- is stamped Mon, 2010-03-01 00:07.

The "I'll Be Seeing You" blog entry -- link -- is stamped Thu, 2010-03-04 10:39.

Ellen

[jeffrey smith]

Just to be clear, let's have this on record over here. The following is from Perigo's thread called: KASS Music Gem of the Day: Mario—I'll Be Seeing You, dated March 4, 2010. He is discussing the movie, The Notebook. According to him, despite expectations that he would hate the movie, he actually loved it.

I imagine some anal-retentive Randroid will now label me, yet again, an "emotionalist" for doing so. Frankly my dears, I don't give a damn. On the basis of stuff I've been reading right here lately I think I'm headed for a divorce from Objectivism anyway. If Objectivism truly means, in a way I hadn't tumbled to hitherto, acquiescence to the mindset of Binswanger, Schwartz and Hull and a commitment to The Virtue of Obnoxiousness as practised by those gentlemen and defended by James then I don't want to be anywhere near it. I should add that I would still wish to be even less near the likes of Babs and Campbell, whom I regard as lower than anyone I've ever encountered.

What I'm certain of is that a theory of reason and emotion that ends up cheerleading for intrinsicist religiosity is just as fucked as one that ends up cheerleading for subjectivist amoralism. Hitherto I thought Rand and Peikoff thought so too, but James has gone to bat so hard for intrinsicist religiosity, with no hint of demur from anyone who speaks for Objectivism (or anyone who doesn't but knows better), I've concluded I must have missed something.

This suggests to me that, in addition to what's on the forum, the offiline route has been burning a bit...

I wonder what he missed. Maybe "acquiescence to the mindset of" Perigo?

Michael

I think it's time to bring a bit of outsider's perspective here.

Please remember that in this little episode, it is Lindsay Perigo who has reason on his side. (This is not quite the same thing as saying Lindsay Perigo is on the side of reason; the relationship is not necessarily commutative, as the algebraists would say.)

I think you are right that SOLO was used by Valliant and the ARIans as a place to promote and defend PARC. But I think your theory that they have purposefully cut Perigo off may be wrong. As I see it, it would be far better for Mr. Valliant to simply drop out of sight from SOLO after he had milked it for all it was currently worth, instead of actively picking a fight with Perigo. That way, he would be able to return as needed to defend his magnum opus, and retain Perigo's good will. Now, not only is he unwelcome on SOLO, and anything he posts there will be received with disdain or suspicion if he ever does post there again, but he runs a serious risk of having Perigo turn against PARC. I don't think Perigo will ever make public repentance and declare goodwill to OL; nor do I expect him to ever give up the brava-ism of bathetic bombastic Branden bashing--he seems to have too much emotional investment in those topics. But, however deficient his actions are as practical matters, and however much he rationalizes them into something far more important than they are, his intentions have always been the defense of Objectivism and reason. I rather expect him to announce himself as the true apostle and intellectual heir of Ayn Rand, promoting himself as a pure channel of Rand's ideas (to which, in fact, he probably has a better claim than ARI does), with all others being false prophets and teachers, and applying the full panoply of Randian bell, book and candle with equal vigor against OL and ARI.

As to who will listen to him--well, "easy is the descent to Avernus; but to return back from there--

--That is the labor, that is the work!"

Jeffrey S.

[Robert Campbell]

Does Ms. Stuttle expect Jim Valliant to return to SOLOP?

If she did, wouldn't she be there instead of here?

Robert Campbell

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

But, however deficient his actions are as practical matters, and however much he rationalizes them into something far more important than they are, his intentions have always been the defense of Objectivism and reason. I rather expect him to announce himself as the true apostle and intellectual heir of Ayn Rand, promoting himself as a pure channel of Rand's ideas (to which, in fact, he probably has a better claim than ARI does), with all others being false prophets and teachers, and applying the full panoply of Randian bell, book and candle with equal vigor against OL and ARI.

Jeff,

I am going to invert a couple of your ideas, because inverted they make sense to me.

1. Perigo's "... intentions have always been... to announce himself as the true apostle and intellectual heir of Ayn Rand, promoting himself as a pure channel of Rand's ideas... with all others being false prophets and teachers."

2. He uses a half-assed... "defense of Objectivism and reason" to attain that end.

A far as Valliant is concerned, your argument about him keeping a door open on SLOP makes sense only if he felt that PARC had a chance in hell of recovering. Valliant is many things bad, but he is not that stupid. Life moves on and PARC has died dead. Now he needs Peikoff, ARI & Co. for his future projects. Hanging around a Peikoff-basher with nothing futher to gain is not good for that. Also, as I understand it, his wife comes from the ortho crowd. He's gotta live with her, too, and I don't imagine she is too keen on anything Perigo says other than his defense of PARC and hatred of Barbara Branden (and by extension those who honor her).

Michael

[Ellen Stuttle]

Does Ms. Stuttle expect Jim Valliant to return to SOLOP?

If she did, wouldn't she be there instead of here?

Robert Campbell

I have no hunch either way as to whether Jim Valliant will or won't return to posting on SOLO. I don't know why he stopped posting, whether he stopped, as you assume, because of the dispute between him and Linz and others or whether for some other reason.

And I'm not posting here instead of there. Nothing is going on there at the moment about which I want to say anything.

Also, Robert, you never did find out why I started posting on SOLO to begin with (I mean in fairly current history; I posted occasionally there in the first year after Rowlands and Perigo went their separate ways.) A little research could have given you a more accurate basis from which to speculate.

Ellen

[Brant Gaede]

I have no hunch either way as to whether Jim Valliant will or won't return to posting on SOLO. I don't know why he stopped posting, whether he stopped, as you assume, because of the dispute between him and Linz and others or whether for some other reason.

And I'm not posting here instead of there. Nothing is going on there at the moment about which I want to say anything.

"Nothing is going on there" is the first time that's happened since Lindsay set up the joint. It used to have some entertainment value. If there is one thing most Objectivists have in common is not liking foul-mouthed, bullying ostensible leadership or that kind of representation of the philosophy.

--Brant

edit: I just went over to Rebirth of Reason for the first time in a long time and postings there are way down too. It's obvious when you click on Forum and then on last day posts. It seems to be more than the usual weekend thing, but I'll check back mid-week. Maybe things are getting so bad in the world people are putting up sandbags.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Brant Gaede

[Neil Parille]

100 Voices: An Oral History of Ayn Rand has been preannounced:

http://www.amazon.com/100-Voices-Oral-History-Rand/dp/0451231309/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267990069&sr=1-1

688 Pages, Publication date of November 2, 2010.

-Neil Parille

[Robert Campbell]

Neil,

Thanks for the update.

The McConnell volume looks as though it will be a valuable resource.

Robert Campbell

[Robert Campbell]

Ms. Stuttle has reverted to two-bit mysterianism.

It may come as an unwelcome revelation that no one else gives a rat's patootie what her deep dark "real" motive was for posting on SOLOP.

Her posts over there, gratuitously defending Jim Valliant and sucking up to Lindsay Perigo, still do a pretty good job of explaining themselves.

Meanwhile, the Jim Valliant Flounce Watch is up to Day 6 and counting.

Robert Campbell

[Brant Gaede]

Ms. Stuttle has reverted to two-bit mysterianism.

It may come as an unwelcome revelation that no one else gives a rat's patootie what her deep dark "real" motive was for posting on SOLOP.

Her posts over there, gratuitously defending Jim Valliant and sucking up to Lindsay Perigo, still do a pretty good job of explaining themselves.

Meanwhile, the Jim Valliant Flounce Watch is up to Day 6 and counting.

After PARC why would anyone want to read anything he's written or going to *written* on religion?

--Brant

Edited March 8, 2010 by Brant Gaede

[Neil Parille]

Brant,

As I said before, given Valliant's inability to summarize three books, one can only imagine the problems he will have dealing with 2000 years of history.

Speaking of his recent attack on Christianity, this self-proclaimed "scholar" is apparently clueless that most of the things he attacked Christianity for were found in ancient Greece to an even greater extent.

-Neil Parille

[Neil Parille]

Speaking of 100 Voices, it is referenced by page number in both the Burns and the Heller bios. Will be interesting to see if there has been any "fuzzy editing."

-Neil Parille

[Ellen Stuttle]

Meanwhile, the Jim Valliant Flounce Watch is up to Day 6 and counting.

At least you've corrected the day from which to begin the counting.

Ellen

[jeffrey smith]

But, however deficient his actions are as practical matters, and however much he rationalizes them into something far more important than they are, his intentions have always been the defense of Objectivism and reason. I rather expect him to announce himself as the true apostle and intellectual heir of Ayn Rand, promoting himself as a pure channel of Rand's ideas (to which, in fact, he probably has a better claim than ARI does), with all others being false prophets and teachers, and applying the full panoply of Randian bell, book and candle with equal vigor against OL and ARI.

Jeff,

I am going to invert a couple of your ideas, because inverted they make sense to me.

1. Perigo's "... intentions have always been... to announce himself as the true apostle and intellectual heir of Ayn Rand, promoting himself as a pure channel of Rand's ideas... with all others being false prophets and teachers."

2. He uses a half-assed... "defense of Objectivism and reason" to attain that end.

A far as Valliant is concerned, your argument about him keeping a door open on SLOP makes sense only if he felt that PARC had a chance in hell of recovering. Valliant is many things bad, but he is not that stupid. Life moves on and PARC has died dead. Now he needs Peikoff, ARI & Co. for his future projects. Hanging around a Peikoff-basher with nothing futher to gain is not good for that. Also, as I understand it, his wife comes from the ortho crowd. He's gotta live with her, too, and I don't imagine she is too keen on anything Perigo says other than his defense of PARC and hatred of Barbara Branden (and by extension those who honor her).

Michael

I would make a slight correction in point 2. Half-assed is too weak a term for the complete and thorough asininity of Perigo's pompous prosings.

My theory of Valliant's motivation is probably colored by my own approach to such things. I will never slam a door when I can close it quietly, and never close a door completely if I can help it: you never know when you might need a friend (or at least, not want an enemy). Even when I flounced from SOLO, I sent an irenic private message to Perigo, to make it clear that my disgust was with others at SOLO and not actually with him. A fool and a buffoon he is, but I think he's an honest one, at least: he really does think he is advancing the cause of Objectivism, Galt help us all.

Jeffrey S.

[Selene]

Jeff:

I had no dog in that fight, but from what I can glean, he is doing for Objectivism what Pelosi is doing for Progressivism!

Adam

[Brant Gaede]

Jeff:

I had no dog in that fight, but from what I can glean, he is doing for Objectivism what Pelosi is doing for Progressivism!

Adam

Progressivism, so called, is fascism incarnate, uniting the totalitarian impulsives of both the left and right. The natural alliance between Naziism and communism was permanently and absolutely rendered with Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union. It's been a turf battle since and albeit before too, between these two baddies with the left smearing the conservatives and true liberals with "rightists" and the extirpated and exterminated Nazis. This is why there are so many anti-Nazi movies--it's an attempt to keep the villain alive to attack the non-villains by the bloodthirsty Marxist villains of the last century. These bastards are still all over the place. Or, the left won the battle with the right with the defeat of Germany in WWII and then they re-turned on the West, now labelled "right," to continue the general communist conquest by other means.

--Brant

multi-culturalists are "useful idiots"

Edited March 8, 2010 by Brant Gaede

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

I don't know if you are watching Glenn Beck, but he is on an anti-Progressive kick (which is a very good thing).

He explains it as communism (basically statism) with a twist. Instead of inciting the masses to violent revolution, Progressives seek to place people in power spots and move toward big government by baby-steps. They "progress."

He says there are Democrat and Republican Progressives. And that this has been going on since Teddy Roosevelt.

I posted a video (in Politics, I think) that gives a straight line with five divisions going from left to right for government organization: Dictatorship, Oligarchy, Democracy, Republic, Anarchy. The left side is total government control and the right is no government whatsoever.

Beck more or less uses this and says the Progressives are "progressing" by intent from the right to the left.

Progressive used to have a bad reputation, so the Progressives began to call themselves Liberals. Now that Liberals are starting to stink, they are starting to call themselves Progressives once again.

But now that Beck is on his campaign and it is taking hold nationwide, I don't know how long that will last.

I mention this because that is now starting to be the mainstream perception of Progressivism.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Good for Beck, Michael, he's on the right track, but right now I'm pissed because I just lost another post because of the unstableness of OL in protecting you when you try to make a post in the "reply" mode. Isn't there a way to provide a "safe harbor" for writing your posts on OL so they won't be lost? This crap only happens on OL and I'm sick and tired of it.

--Brant

Edited March 8, 2010 by Brant Gaede

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

OL isn't be the only place that happens, at least not with me.

When I need to write a large post, here is what I do.

I have a permanent file I made on my workspace where I can easily click it. It is a Notepad file and I call it Scratch Pad. If I'm writing something and I perceive I am going to go deeper, I have now disciplined myself to pause a second, copy/paste what I have written over to the Scratch Pad, which I can save as often as I like, and continue there. Once I am done, I copy/paste the text to the post and format as I am revising.

I also keep the wordwrap feature in Notepad turned on while I write, then turn it off before copy/pasting to the forum. If not, it puts linebreaks in that I don't want.

Not instant gratification like a computer should be, but it works well enough.

The good thing about Scratch Pad is that I don't have to worry about keeping what is on it. By it's very nature, I am constantly deleting the older stuff as I work on new posts.

Also, I have found that if I run the following programs and procedures regularly, this crash almost never happens:

1. Once every 2 or 3 days I clean out my browser's private data--cache, cookies, passwords, the works. All of it. This is very easy to do.

2. Once a week I run the following programs (they are all free): CCleaner, Glary Utilities, and Advanced System Care. These do a pretty good job of keeping my system cleaned up of junk files, they do defrag, etc., and they my keep my registry in reasonable order.

3. I keep both AVG and Malwarebytes (both free) on my system as my antivirus programs. I make sure to keep them updated and run them once a week on the entire system.

Michael

[Dragonfly]

On every forum I always use copy/paste to a Word file after every one or two sentences when I write a post. Otherwise you risk losing text, which can happen on every forum, OL is certainly not worse than other forums in that respect. It gives me also a good database of all the thousands of messages I write on the Internet (each forum gets its own directory).

[Robert Campbell]

Lindsay Perigo can't bear to say in so many words that he's done it, but this looks to me like a clear admission that Jim Valliant has vacated the premises over at SOLO:

http://www.solopassion.com/node/7440#comment-85384

The Jim Valliant Flounce Watch is on Day 9, and counting.

Robert Campbell