Natanyahu Lowers the Boom

[Brant Gaede]

A Hamas headquarters was located in this building.

Greg

Excellent!

Actual urban renewal.

There was a warning, I believe an Israeli jet did an overflight and either fired "tracer rounds," or, some other "notification" armament to the roof of the building.

A...

Why do you "believe"?

--Brant

[Selene]

A Hamas headquarters was located in this building.

Greg

Excellent!

Actual urban renewal.

There was a warning, I believe an Israeli jet did an overflight and either fired "tracer rounds," or, some other "notification" armament to the roof of the building.

A...

Why do you "believe"?

--Brant

Because I was not sure.

Additionally, I had not read this:

"The military said residents of the building, known as Zafer Tower 4, were warned by telephone and by means of a small warning missile fired at the roof."

A...

[moralist]

A Hamas headquarters was located in this building.

Greg

Excellent!

Actual urban renewal.

There was a warning, I believe an Israeli jet did an overflight and either fired "tracer rounds," or, some other "notification" armament to the roof of the building.

A...

Why do you "believe"?

--Brant

Because I was not sure.

Additionally, I had not read this:

"The military said residents of the building, known as Zafer Tower 4, were warned by telephone and by means of a small warning missile fired at the roof."

A...

People tend to not to believe that the Israel is basically a decent nation. I also believe that statement to be true. I heard a similar statement on the radio news.

Greg

[Gary Fisher]

Any Palestinian in Gaza could be recruited by Hamas tomorrow. I don't get it. Do people who are against Israel's actions in Palestinian territories seriously believe that terrorists are not a threat that Israel should destroy?

[Brant Gaede]

Any Palestinian in Gaza could be recruited by Hamas tomorrow. I don't get it. Do people who are against Israel's actions in Palestinian territories seriously believe that terrorists are not a threat that Israel should destroy?

It would seem ISIS recruits in Great Britain.

Is Israel after the "could be"?

--Brant

[Jules Troy]

And canada

[Backlighting]

A Hamas headquarters was located in this building.

Greg

Excellent!

Actual urban renewal.

There was a warning, I believe an Israeli jet did an overflight and either fired "tracer rounds," or, some other "notification" armament to the roof of the building.

A...

Actual urban renewal? ROTFLMAO There goes my skunk juice, I mean Heineken, all over the desk.

[Jules Troy]

Hahaha!

[Selene]

Looks like Bibi made a booboo:

Israel's acceptance of an Egyptian ceasefire proposal may have temporarily ended the war with Hamas – but the move has sparked a row within Israel's security cabinet that now threatens the future of the country's coalition government.

Over half of Israel's cabinet members are said to have opposed the ceasefire deal which entered into effect on Tuesday evening, with many members furious that Mr Netanyahu opted not to bring it up to a vote.

Discussions over the ceasefire between Israel, Egypt and the Palestinians have been going over the weekend – but during this time, Mr Netanyahu is said to have kept his cabinet out of the loop, Israeli daily Haaretz reported.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/11059048/Benjamin-Netanyahus-cabinet-in-revolt-over-Gaza-ceasefire.html

[anthony]

I think "booboo" is right, Adam.

Things not accomplished by this ceasefire:

Hamas was not soundly defeated/humiliated to the point of surrender.

Gaza was not demilitarized and disarmed.

Gazans did not turn against Hamas who are the first cause of their situation and suffering.

World opinion has blindly refused to see that it's Hamas which is that same cause.

Bibi apparently caved in to pressure from Israel's allies, and I think to attacks on and vilification of Jews around the world. The mixture of anti-Judaism and hypocritical sympathy has been well orchestrated this time around. Because of the outcry and moral support for a terror gang, this war will go on another time and more will die. People can't get it (or pretend not) that mindless, ignorant compassion gets people killed over there.

[Selene]

Agreed.

This is why I wonder why many readers of Ayn avoid her conclusion that these James Taggart types want death because at some deep believe that they do not desrve to be alive.

A...

[william.scherk]

I think "booboo" is right, Adam.

Things not accomplished by this ceasefire:

Hamas was not soundly defeated/humiliated to the point of surrender.

Gaza was not demilitarized and disarmed.

Gazans did not turn against Hamas who are the first cause of their situation and suffering.

World opinion has blindly refused to see that it's Hamas which is that same cause.

Bibi apparently caved in to pressure from Israel's allies, and I think to attacks on and vilification of Jews around the world. The mixture of anti-Judaism and hypocritical sympathy has been well orchestrated this time around. Because of the outcry and moral support for a terror gang, this war will go on another time and more will die. People can't get it (or pretend not) that mindless, ignorant compassion gets people killed over there.

One of the Palestinian parties to the ceasefire agreement said this:

"There is another topic that we will address, namely: what next? Gaza Strip alone suffered from three wars in 2008-2009, 2012, and 2014. Should we expect another war after a year or two? Until when will the cause remain unresolved? We will put forward our vision to the leadership and will continue consultations thereof with our brothers and the international community. However, the vision should be very clear, very specific, and understood from A-Z, because engaging in vague negotiations is something we cannot continue to do."

I like the term "mindless, ignorant compassion," though it is unmoored in your remarks, Tony. (ie., who has had mindless, ignorant compassion for whom? who has mindful and informed compassion and for whom?)

I think this agreement was the best either side would accept right now. I don't think it is possible to crush Hamas out of the Gaza strip. If every combatant, security service, leadership figure, arms cache were destroyed, a million Hamas supporters would remain. For better or worse, it is a political force as well as a military force. Its roots in Gaza are deep.

I think there were some good-for-Israel ingredients in this indefinite ceasefire agreement. And I think the Palestinian Authority benefited in important ways: primarily by extending its own control to the border crossings that will be reopened into and out of Gaza.

For the Hamas-bedeviled people in Gaza, the ceasefire promises discussion on further demands/hopes/requests, primarily to do with reconstruction of infrastructure, but also including a possible future opening of an airport and a seaport.

Tony, Israel and Hamas agreed to stop this round of war, after a couple of thousand people died. One can be dismayed as you are at the bare minimum agreement signed in Cairo, or disappointed, curse the unnamed allies and their unspecified perfidy, and even wish war had continued more strongly.

I am on the other side of the street. I am glad there is a ceasefire. I am glad the PA is strengthened. I am glad nobody's children have to die this week. Public opinion be damned.

Edited August 27, 2014 by william.scherk

[Selene]

I am glad the PA is strengthened. I am glad nobody's children have to die this week. Public opinion be damned.

Here I agree with you 100%

[anthony]

I am glad nobody's children have to die this week. Public opinion be damned.

That's what I said after the last war there.

Would you, William, accept a peace treaty signed with ISIL?

It would be, to me, a substantiation of their cruel, insane goals and merely put off worse for tomorrow.

Imagine for a moment that the world (not you, I know) had paid no attention to Palestine, all these years. No camera crews and no reporters moralizing on BBC. I'll confidently claim that all Palestinian territories would have sovereign statehood, open borders with Israel, and be enjoying a bustling economy today. And Gaza would be a tourist resort. But Palestinians know too well that their one, powerful currency and source of cash from Western nations is the facile compassion and righteousness by which Europeans (for other, darker reasons, too)view them, and only them. It's that one-sided appeal to humanity they count upon -- starved of it, reality and good sense would have won out by now -- and their (Hamas', in particular) ambitions for Israel are crystal clear. The clearer they're stated, the less believed, it seems.

I know you'd mourn the 2000, and many more, Israeli civilans killed if Israel would ever relax and be caught off guard by its sworn enemies.

How many others in the world would share your genuine empathy, if roles were reversed?

[Gary Fisher]

@whyNOT

Now that they have a ceasefire, hopefully Hamas and the PA will be able to go through with the unity government agreement they made back in June. What it means is that Hamas will effectively denounce the use of violence, and the PA will become the legitimate government of the Palestinian people. This will allow Natanyahu to come to the negotiating table, and really this is the best chance that anybody may ever get for peace.

[BaalChatzaf]

@whyNOT

Now that they have a ceasefire, hopefully Hamas and the PA will be able to go through with the unity government agreement they made back in June. What it means is that Hamas will effectively denounce the use of violence, and the PA will become the legitimate government of the Palestinian people. This will allow Natanyahu to come to the negotiating table, and really this is the best chance that anybody may ever get for peace.

Hamas needed time to get more bullets to shoot at the Israelis. See how long this one lasts.

[william.scherk]

I am glad nobody's children have to die this week. Public opinion be damned.

That's what I said after the last war there.

Would you, William, accept a peace treaty signed with ISIL?

A ceasefire between Israel and Hamas is the subject I discussed above. My opinions on the terror state you probably know. I take your underlying point: if I personally reject a peace treaty between (who?) and ITS, then I should also reject a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel. Even though peace treaty with mumble doesn't mean ceasefire.

That's called conflation. It's fallacious. If you have an argument about what I stated above, I'd be happy to hear it.

It would be, to me, a substantiation of their cruel, insane goals and merely put off worse for tomorrow.

Imagine for a moment that the world (not you, I know) had paid no attention to Palestine, all these years.

This doesn't make sense to me. It's counter-reality, or science fiction, or alternate history. One can make any argument if we just use magic -- magical removal of the world's attention to Palestine. ("if we hadn't paid attention to what the Palestians have been saying, then they would have got down to the business of figuring out how to turn Area C into real estate gold")

No camera crews and no reporters moralizing on BBC. I'll confidently claim that all Palestinian territories would have sovereign statehood, open borders with Israel, and be enjoying a bustling economy today.

And Gaza would be a tourist resort.

Frankly, this is just pipe smoke to me. I will confidently state that if Israel had acted in exactly the same way (against the magically invisible Palestinians) over all these years, the situation would be similar: a face-off between The Resistance and the Jewish State.

Which magical arbiter could rate each of our pipedreams more or less plausible?

[redacted to] But Palestinian currency is the compassion and righteousness by which Europeans view them, and only them.

This is if you close one eye and pretend that only Palestinians matter to the hundreds of millions of Europeans. Which European country has done a tenth of what rogue Ecuador did to display its displeasure at Israel's war on Gaza?

It's that one-sided appeal to humanity they count upon -- starved of it, reality and good sense would have won out by now -- and their (Hamas', in particular) ambitions for Israel are crystal clear. The clearer they're stated, the less believed, it seems.

So, if the Palestinians (writ large, all of them, West Bank, Gaza, in camps elsewhere) made an appeal to humanity, to the World, and the world (and the BBC) let their appeal be heard, and the appeal was heard, and so ... if only they had no appeal, then everything would be something something.

I can't follow this. I am quite glad there is a ceasefire. You are not that glad. Fair enough.

I know you'd mourn the 2000, and many more, Israeli civilans killed if Israel would ever relax and be caught off guard by its sworn enemies.

How many others in the world would share your genuine empathy, if roles were reversed?

I have no idea, and neither do you. If Hamas led the way back to another intifada in the Palestinian territories, and/or if Hamas and Islamist former allies conducted bus-bombings or other suicide attacks against civilian Israeli targets, your assumed international bias could likely swing the other way. And if I had green gauze wings I could fly to the moon.

I get the impression that great emotions move your opinions on the ceasefire. I'd suggest you put those emotions to work in a tighter and more specific argument if you are looking for a fruitful discussion.

Here's a starter: what do you think of the Israeli government's settlements policy in the West Bank?

Edited August 27, 2014 by william.scherk

[anthony]

"The Resistance".

There's the problem, writ large.

Identifying who wants to live and let live - and who actually doesn't give a damn about their own people. Why is this such a hard pill to swallow? Is there something admirable about self-sacrifice, or something abhorrent about some choosing to live at all cost?

Baghdad.

As "conflation" or comparison with Hamas and Israel - my question is should the Iraqi government (such as it is) ever sign a peace deal with Isis? You have imagination, I ask that you use it.

I've never claimed that Israel deserves sainthood. They have made moral mistakes. I claim that one side does not ever see it in their interest to declare longstanding peace -- the other does, and will make massive concessions if peace were certain. If you can't see this, you don't know much about the past.

I claim that Israel has become powerful and apparently harsh, by necessity.

You also make the false assumption that a reversal against Israel of suicide bombings (etc.) would swing world opinions in its favour. Not much for the last spate -- and definitely not in future.

William, without probably knowing it, you have voiced the precise reasons Israel cannot allow itself to weaken. That's the tragedy. Guess who appreciates this the most.

[anthony]

@whyNOT

Now that they have a ceasefire, hopefully Hamas and the PA will be able to go through with the unity government agreement they made back in June. What it means is that Hamas will effectively denounce the use of violence, and the PA will become the legitimate government of the Palestinian people. This will allow Natanyahu to come to the negotiating table, and really this is the best chance that anybody may ever get for peace.

I find this pleasantly innocent. Really, I am not being funny, Gary. Cynicism becomes tiring.

Basically, I hope you're right. As they say over there "From your mouth, to god's ear."

But for starters, there is no love lost between Fatah and Hamas. The latter murdered some Fatah members in the process of taking over in Gaza. The united front you see is all fake.

[Jules Troy]

Iran shot down an Israeli drone taking pretty pictures of one of its uranium enrichment facilities last week. It has vowed to step up supplies of rockets to HAMAS as retribution.

This ceasefire is nothing more than a ruse to allow Iran to re stockpile HAMAS rockets. In 7-10 days the rocket attacks will begin again.

[Selene]

Iran shot down an Israeli drone taking pretty pictures of one of its uranium enrichment facilities last week. It has vowed to step up supplies of rockets to HAMAS as retribution.

This ceasefire is nothing more than a ruse to allow Iran to re stockpile HAMAS rockets. In 7-10 days the rocket attacks will begin again.

Not sure that's been confirmed.

[Jules Troy]

May or may not be true, but Iran will still use the ceasefire to restock HAMAS. Other reports have stated that they are/were down to about 30% of their rockets.

This is a common practice, use "humanitarian aid" as a cover or bare minimum a lull in activity to re-trench.

If I were a smart Palestinian I would use the opportunity to extent my hand to the rest if the world that is constantly crying out and demonstrating "free Palestine " to move me and my family the hell out if there. At the very least at least the women and children that are willing to go.

If the women and children were gone, at least HAMAS could no longer use them as human shields.

[william.scherk]

My friend Tony sometimes prefers not to directly quote in his fearsome ripostes to my fiery tirades. I add in here enough context so that I make sense to myself, at the risk of boring and annoying OLers. It is a reconstruction I can use in order to see my errors and misperceptions.

I am glad nobody's children have to die this week. Public opinion be damned.

That's what I said after the last war there.

Would you, William, accept a peace treaty signed with ISIL?

A ceasefire between Israel and Hamas is the subject I discussed above. My opinions on the terror state you probably know. I take your underlying point: if I personally reject a peace treaty between (who?) and ITS, then I should also reject a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel. Even though peace treaty with mumble doesn't mean ceasefire.

That's called conflation. It's fallacious. If you have an argument about what I stated above, I'd be happy to hear it.

Baghdad.
As "conflation" or comparison with Hamas and Israel - my question is should the Iraqi government (such as it is) ever sign a peace deal with Isis? You have imagination, I ask that you use it.

Thanks for filling in that blank. Conflation, in this instance is done by the treble sort. Iraq stands in for Israel. ITS stands in for Hamas. A "peace treaty" stands in for a ceasefire. This is fallacious.

If you are asking me if I would support a peace treaty between the government of Iraq and the Islamic Terror State, I say hell no. If you are asking me if I would support a ceasefire between the IST and Iraq, I would say it hardly fucking matters, since the USA, Turkey, Kurdish Regional Government, FSA, Al-Nusra, Shiite militia, Iraq and Syria (separately) are conducting war against ITS. A peace treaty is nowhere on the horizon.

So, I was just pointing out that the comparison fails. It conflates things that aren't the same, and builds an argument upon a false equivalence. Look at it as being like arguing by analogy, where the analogy is not a good fit, using the analogy to do the work. This fallacious reasoning can lead to irrational conclusions (like, I would say, Hamas is the same thing as ITS). Look at what gets left out. Iraq was a unitary state fighting an insurrection of its own citizens (plus plenty Islamist migrant warriors). That's so not the same situation as Gaza vis a vis Israel -- and of course leaves out the important concept of Palestinian, Palestinian Territory. Israel is on paper looking to a future where the Palestinians will form a state. Iraq is most certainly not looking forward to a future demented terrorist enclave state.

If you are asking me if Israel should make peace with Palestinians, I say yes. I don't substitute that complex treaty for the simple cessation of hostilities by mutual agreement.

And Gaza would be a tourist resort.

Frankly, this is just pipe smoke to me. I will confidently state that if Israel had acted in exactly the same way (against the magically invisible Palestinians) over all these years, the situation would be similar: a face-off between The Resistance and the Jewish State.

"The Resistance".

There's the problem, writ large.

Identifying who wants to live and let live - and who actually doesn't give a damn about their own people. Why is this such a hard pill to swallow? Is there something admirable about self-sacrifice, or something abhorrent about some choosing to live at all cost?

I asked who will be the arbiter of our imaginative schemes. Your pipedream may be as unlikely as mine, don't you think? I see a stalemate, like today, you see Arab Nevada and big buddy Israel. As they are both guesses, what makes your Las Vegas Gaza more likely in the improbable scenario you sketched?

These lines get obscure, I will be honest. I have to guess at exactly what you refer to. A set of white/black distinctions, I think. Arabs/Palestinians/Gazans/Hamas do not want to live and let live. Israelis do. Arab/Pal/Gaz/Ham do not give a damn about their own people. Israel alone cares about its own people. 'Choosing to live at all cost' (in terms of mumble) cannot be abhorrent! (to whom? mumble)

This is all great, if you want hold these positions. But it's not necessarily the whole story, nor even an interesting story.

If Hamas led the way back to another intifada in the Palestinian territories, and/or if Hamas and Islamist former allies conducted bus-bombings or other suicide attacks against civilian Israeli targets, your assumed international bias could likely swing the other way. And if I had green gauze wings I could fly to the moon.

You also make the false assumption that a reversal against Israel of suicide bombings (etc.) would swing world opinions in its favour. Not much for the last spate -- and definitely not in future.

The world had little taste for suicide attacks, as you well know. Suppressing these evil acts since 2007 has been the task of the Palestinians as well as Israelis.

We were each taking a turn at guessing what would happen if a magical world media blackout occurred over Palestinian lands! Come on, Tony. Be fair ... we were each conjuring against that background.

William, without probably knowing it, you have voiced the precise reasons Israel cannot allow itself to weaken. That's the tragedy. Guess who appreciates this the most.

Well, help us out, Tony and be clear about the tragedy of my words. If there are precise reasons that I voiced (which weaken Israel), please quote them. It's important.

I've never claimed that Israel deserves sainthood. They have made moral mistakes. I claim that one side does not ever see it in their interest to declare longstanding peace -- the other does, and will make massive concessions if peace were certain. If you can't see this, you don't know much about the past.
I claim that Israel has become powerful and apparently harsh, by necessity.

Ah, so general, so emotive, so sure. What might comprise these 'massive concessions' ... ?

You merely insult me as being blind if I don't agree with you that every last Palestinians does not see it in their interest to declare long-standing peace.


I don't know what you are arguing for or against now. It's so nebulous. Even now knowing that I have made some tragic rhetorical error in lining up some reasons I am glad glad glad there is a ceasefire, I can't get purchase on the particulars.

I'll wait till you get to a well-delimited subject I am competent to write on before I get back in the saddle.

Edited August 28, 2014 by william.scherk

[Jules Troy]

Why Tony cannot ever speak in plain f ing English is beyond me.

[anthony]

It's a matter of principle. Can one see the conceptual similarity between two aggressive self-proclaimed Jihadist entities - who have made their intentions and methods obvious - neither of whom can (or should) be negotiated with.

I suggest a reading of the Hamas Charter, all 32 Articles.

Preamble: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it".

Tell me the difference (in principle) between Hamas and Isis (and bugger "fallacious reasoning": don't be so concrete bound.)

Then tell me what "The Resistance" means. Resisting what, how, and to what ends. Against occupation?

Against genocide? Against "Apartheid"? Against a blockade, erected for self-defence? For show, and sympathy from lefties? Tell me how provoking attacks from a far superior force, allowing women and children to die...is "resistance".

Tell me why the Left, in Europe especially, has laid so much virulent hatred on decent and peaceful Jews there? While silent on any other injustices.

I am not interested in discussing this, William. Even if we could agree on facts, and which ones are significant, we hold far dissimilar moralities. If you can't see that it is Hamas (and Fatah) with Iran behind it that is holding its people to ransom, not Israel, you go ahead without me. As for one of your sneers, I have already asserted that, indeed, not "every last Palestinians" would refuse peace, and that they -the silent ones- are most worthy of empathy for me.