Neil Parille Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Jonathan,1. Barbara Branden has said she met with Rand or talked to her on the phone almost every day from 1950 to the split in 1968.2. If Ayn and Frank did visit Frank's family in Ohio on multiple occasions in the 1950s and 60s as Cathy says, Barbara certainly would have known of this.3. Anne Heller interviewed Barbara and the subject of Frank's later involvement with his family would have come up.4. If Heller found it significant to note that Ayn and Frank stopped by Cleveland on a cross-country trip in 1951 to visit two members of Frank's family, she almost certainly would have mentioned these frequent later visits if they happened.5. Therefore, Ayn and Frank did not make multiple visits to Ohio to visit Frank's family.I really can't see any weaknesses to this argument.-Neil Parille Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Did both Barbara Branden and Anne Heller talk to the key sources? Most likely, yes. Read the books, especially the Notes, regarding their sources.Who are the key sources in this case?Aunt Agnes and Cathy's father were dead. Heller talked to Connie, Agnes' daughter, and I think to Mimi Sutton (was she still alive?), and Barbara definitely talked to Mimi Sutton, but would either Connie or Mimi have necessarily known particulars Cathy is telling? According to Cathy, there was a family feud and family members lost touch with one another, and she and her twin sister were sent off to foster homes.A detail on which I mistrusted Heller's account because of her providing insufficient information is confirmed by Cathy's story, that of the abortion, with funds borrowed from Agnes' husband.Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Parille Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Ellen,Neil,What is it in Cathy's recollections that would upset the apple cart of your views of Ayn and Frank?I'm not getting why you'd have any problem with her stories being true.If Cathy did meet Ayn and Frank 4 or 5 times (and she implies that these visits were short) and did hear things that other family members told her they knew or learned, I don't think it would count as strong evidence of much of anything given the second-hand nature of most of this and the passage of time.That being said, I find this very unlikelyMy aunt said that Frank and Nick would help Ayn write for days. They would help her with ideas, pronunciation and proper sentence structure. Ayn would second guess herself and didn't have confidence in her writings, and that's what my uncle Frank and Uncle Nick gave her , was confidence, in her views, in her writing, and in her life...then they would stand back and watch her fly.It's not true of Nick and certainly not of Frank. Rand didn't need any confidence in her views or her writing (although perhaps ability in English).-Neil Parille Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Neil,Except specifically for the "ideas" and the description of Rand lacking confidence, the comment you quote is supported by Heller as regards Nick, with whom Heller says Ayn talked in her study for hours about her writing.Frank also seems to have been important as feedback, with Ayn reading all her stuff aloud to him.Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Parille Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Ellen,In addition to Rand not needing confidence in her "views" or "ideas," she certainly didn't need confidence in her "life."But if the Aunt said these things, who knows what she might have meant.I just checked Letters of Ayn Rand and they don't give any evidence of contact with the O'Connor family after 1950, with the exception of Mimi Sutton. And there is no evidence of visits, based on my cursory review.-Neil Parille Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Jonathan,1. Barbara Branden has said she met with Rand or talked to her on the phone almost every day from 1950 to the split in 1968.Did Barbara say that, or only Nathaniel?I do agree that it's odd if Ayn and Frank made several trips to Ohio which haven't come to light earlier. Maybe Cathy misremembers the number of occasions on which she saw "Aunt Alice" and Frank.Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Parille Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Ellen,I'm almost positive it was Barbara, early on in the PARC wars.-Neil ParilleCorrection, most likely from the intro to Passion:It was the beginning of an intimate friendship with Ayn and her husband, Frank O'Connor, lasting across nineteen years, during which we met with Ayn or spoke with her by telephone almost every day; for a number of years, we lived in the same New York apartment building.Of course, it could have been from the early salvos in the PARC wars as well. I seem to recall something like "I was Rand's best female friend . . . . " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyau Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Neil,Don't forget that the telephone existed during that time. Letters, too. For some reason, I don't find it inconceivable that Frank would talk to his siblings on the phone at times. Or write letters. And I would not be so confident that the ARI editing of Rand's letters was all-inclusive. There are many works on human memory that show things get distorted over the years. And this applies to everybody. That's part of being human. So witnessing a conversation about someone when you are young could become transformed when you are older into remembering actually seeing the event, and so on.Cathy is coming out into the public for the first time. I know the feeling. That's one of the reasons I am not being judgmental right now. (You know that when I finally get convinced of something, I can "judgmental" all over everything and make a big mess about it. I am not ambiguous on that score. )So, I agree we have to be vigilant that her appearance may be elaborate monkey-business by a person with too much time on his/her hands, but I also think we have to allow for a third possibility, not only the second, that she is who she says she is. And I am leaning toward this third.I think she is who she says she is, but she has received... er... "orientation" in her emails and offline correspondence, which might account for parts of her narratives, and she is still under the emotions of suddenly being the center of attention of very interested people. My inclination is to cut her slack, encourage her to relax, say it's OK to correct things as she goes along because there are many ways to trip up at this stage. And there is certainly no way to please everyone.Some of her stories barbecue some very sacred cows in the subculture and I expect there already is a hell of a lot of pressure on her. And it will only get worse.Here's a perspective from my end.I was brought up to believe the ancestors of part of my family came from Ireland. I learned, in my 50's, that my ancestors on that side of the family actually came from Scotland. I don't know how many times I have repeated stories and oriented myself toward colorful Irish things. My brother did, too. He even named one of his daughters Shannon. We had Irish stuff all over the place. All this was part of me. It was who I was. Suddenly it wasn't. Suddenly there was a whole new world out there--one that was integral to me--but I was not aware of it for most of my life. And what I was aware of was not true.I got a sense of wonder, betrayal, confusion, excitement, insecurity at my very identity, and a whole host of things circling around in my head. This persisted for a long time. Now it's less.I see a parallel in Cathy's experience of learning Aunt Alice was Ayn Rand, so I know that feeling well on the feeling level--and learning something like that in your 50's to boot.I agree you have to press her on details so long as she is willing to answer. For no other reason than to make sure the truth is told and correct information comes out. Just keep in mind that there might be a context that does not involve the world of prove this, prove that, what is your evidence, this contradicts that, and so on. Nor even the vicious bickering that has gone on in the subculture.There might be a very scared and confused human being out there trying to make sense of all this herself.Not saying there is with 100% certainty Not after all the boneheaded crap that has gone on over the years in O-Land. But it sure looks like it to me.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 One time I was in a car accident and was knocked out. When the paramedic asked me my phone number all I could say was 55555. He ask me who the president was and I said I don't know. He asked if I was married and I said I think so. Not until they put an oxygen mask on me and I was breathing it in, my mind was like a switch board, bing, bing, bing, and every bing was a light of memory, until it all became crystal clear again...1000's of bings. That's the way I feel now with remembering again about my father and my past. I did an excellent job of forgetting it all, and at times years ago when it would try to slip back into my memory I would push it away. After we were placed in foster care, every time I would think of my father's home I would have sever anxiety attacks, the longer I would think of my father's home, the anxiety attracts turn into panic attracts and I would hyperventilate. So I taught myself never to think of that time. I started digging into this for my children, and at first it was easy for me because my first memory was of Aunt Agnes. I would sit and talk to my kids about her, then more memories would come up, and more and more...and I was happy about this. More memories came to me about Aunt Alice and Frank, and about the family stories my Aunt Agnes told us. Those were all good memories for me. When I found out that Aunt Alice was really Ayn Rand, I felt abused again, and then came the bad memories...the more I heard about Aunt Alice saying she was an Atheist since she was 10,My uncle since he was nine, all the things you all our telling me...my whole life has been a lie. Then I find out that Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank had this wonderful life, and all the while knew what was happening to us. At least when my Aunt Agnes wrote that letter to my father, she really did have a stroke. But what is Aunt Alice and Uncle Franks excuse for not helping us? Yes, I thought both my aunts and my uncle loved us...and they were the only ones who did at that time. Now I'm learning through you all that she was an out spoken activist. Why couldn't she be that for us???? So you tell me, which is it, did she love us or not? Maybe she only loved herself! So instead of scrutinizing everything I write, maybe you should be scrutinizing "Ayn". I wonder, did Barbara have to pin point the times of calls she had with Ayn everyday? Did she have to prove her memories? First of all none of you believed who I was, now your tearing apart all my memories. Why not instead, put your feet in my shoes...how would you all feel defending who you are, then defending the only good memories you have. Maybe I should be scrutinizing you. Neil you said Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank didn't visit Ohio. Then you said they came to Cleveland And visited with Aunt Agnes and Connie Papurt. Look on a map and see how far Cleveland is from Elyria, where my father lived...it may surprise you. I could tell you so much more, but you wouldn't believe me anyway. ~Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted April 26, 2013 Author Share Posted April 26, 2013 ...the more I heard about Aunt Alice saying she was an Atheist since she was 10, My uncle since he was nine, all the things you all our telling me...my whole life has been a lie.We don't know that it's true that they were atheists at that young of an age. Aunt Alice was a Romanticist, and she sometimes romanticized the events and timeline her own life, as well as those of others, and she also sometimes demonized people. The romantic contrast that she preferred sometimes didn't match reality. I'd say that the only way to know for sure if Frank was an atheist, and when he might have become one, would be directly from his having written a statement saying so.J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Cathy, a lot of people who are engaging you here and on SOLO believe and believed you are who you say you are including me. We do like to have things straight in our minds about folks who were and still are important to us. These Internet forums are naturally enough quite rough at times. Just hang in there; you'll be okay here. There's no doubt you are tough enough.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Neil, when My Aunt Agnes was telling me about Uncle Nick, Uncle Frank, and Aunt Alice, she was really telling me about Nick. She said Nick would write things down and they would be beautiful poems and things like that. Her input to me was about Frank and Nick, how they Helped Aunt Alice when she came into this country. She was telling me of when they first meet. How scared Aunt Alice was coming to a different country, and her English wasn't good. When I said what my Aunt had said over writing for days...I didn't know she was an author...duh! When they would stand back and watch her fly (Aunt Agnes's words) meant to me(at that time) was Aunt Alice was learning fast and becoming more secure in a different country. It wasn't until I learned that she was really Ayn Rand did I realize that she might be talking about them writing books. That's why I said Uncle Frank had helped Aunt Alice in her writings because they did that from the beginning. And yes she did need confidence in her life at the time. Even my dad in there argument said Uncle Frank gave her, her backbone. It was important for her to tell us about everyone of them, even Uncle Joe. Maybe she knew one day all this would come out, and me and my sister being the last of the family, she was preparing us for it. Uncle Nick wrote to. The thing I'm not clear on is Uncle Nick...I "think" my Aunt told me that Uncle Nick who is really Harry got his nickname in the service of Nick Carter. Can anybody tell me if I am remembering this right? Neil, if you know this Barbra person...why don't you ask her why she didn't mention us, You must know by know that we are their nieces. If she knew "Ayn" as well as she claimed to, then she has to know about me and Conny. That should solve everything, I would like to know to. BTW, how did you find out I was telling the truth on who I was...maybe you can find out that same way on my memories. ~Crazy Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Thank you Brant, I still think you and a few other people are the very few. lol...I thought for years I had my life straightened out...looks like I was wrong. But you are right, anything I learned from being in my father's home was to be tough in many ways. Somebody said, I might have a lot of time on my hands...I go to work everyday, I have the youngest out of six children left at home and I have thirteen grandchild...a lot of time on my hands really??? I think I'm doing this because subconsciously, it maybe some kind of therapy for me in some odd way. But thank you again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmj Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 All I know of this is what is in this thread, I have problems with the diction /nondiction(and I am no stranger to online diction problems), and I find it hard to believe that, given the family's knowledge of AR, any title of a book would not be mentioned. Rand would never have mentioned her accomplishments to the nieces, not even in the sense of 'stay in school see what you can accomplish" kind of mode? I have no dog in this , because I do not have any interest in Rand's life beyond her ideas and published works, perhaps a passing curiousity but not much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 tmj...yep, I agree! Really, what kind of a family does this???? ~Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmj Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 Right, what family would not ever mention that someone they knew wrote bestselling novels, and one of them was turned into a film? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 tmj...you tell me...I keep asking myself the same thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 Somebody said, I might have a lot of time on my hands...I go to work everyday, I have the youngest out of six children left at home and I have thirteen grandchild...a lot of time on my hands really??? I think I'm doing this because subconsciously, it maybe some kind of therapy for me in some odd way. But thank you again!Cathy,I made a comment similar to that and this was not my meaning. So let me explain.I wear two hats here on the forum. One is as human being and the other is as forum owner.As a human being, I can say anything I like about an issue and I can focus solely on the issue. As forum owner, I always have to keep an eye out for people who show up with ill intent. You wouldn't believe some of the characters I have had to deal with. I'm going to give you a story in a minute, but before that, let me say this about having too much time on your hands.I do not believe you, Cathy, have this problem. (Some problem, huh? ) I happen to believe you are a good person who has stumbled into a situation and are working your way around what it is and what to do about it as best you can figure out.As a forum owner, however, I have to take into account that you might not be who you say you are until later when I have more elements. To wit, I already found out the city you live in, and I have looked at some other indications so I'm pretty confident--as a forum owner--that I am not talking to a hoax.On the slim, very tiny chance (from my perspective) that Cathy does not exist, and the character of Cathy is a persona hoax perpetrated by someone, then that someone has a lot of time on his or her hands. If I ever met such a person, that is exactly what I would tell them.For the Cathy who exists, this does not apply. If Cathy does not exist, this applies.I don't know if that's clear, but it's the best I can do to explain it. Anyway, I, Michael, human being, do believe you exist, so sorry for any bad feelings that I, Michael, as forum owner may cause you.Now here is why I, as forum owner, have to be careful. I have had several attacks on this forum, all the way from being hacked, to a dude who filled it with plagiarized material before he got caught. Those are not the only cases, either. But it's always an enormous headache to clean up the mess. (The good news is that nobody has been able to take this place down.)Now, before I get to the story I want to tell you, I have to give you some understanding of mentality. There are two kinds of Rand fanatics, those who worship her and those who loathe her. You probably noticed that this dynamic is not present on OL. This is by design and encouragement.Anyway, I want to talk about the pro-Rand fanatics a bit. Their subtext, one that permeates all of their communications, is that Rand was the greatest philosopher who ever lived (or something along this line). Some of them treat her as the greatest human being who has ever lived. They all sing her praises of the arduous struggles she made against a cruel, uncaring, unjust world. Up to here, OK. She did have it hard getting her ideas accepted and she was attacked viciously. Call the vicious attacks evil. I do. But in her personal life, people with this mentality see her as a victim of evil, too. In other words, to them, Ayn Rand would have led an idyllic personal life if it were not for the evil Brandens, who stole everything from her that would allow her to achieve that.A good indication of this mindset was the awareness these people had of Rand's affair with Nathaniel. They broke up in 1968 and he and Barbara got read out of the Objectivist movement (although Rand did not tell folks why back then--she only said they had been immoral). The world learned of the affair in 1986, when Barbara's biography came out.There were whispers all during that time that the affair had existed. Denials, too. Families broke up over disagreements about this, people broke off friendships that had existed for years, mud got slung all over the place, and so on.We are talking about 18 years of this crap.A lot can happen in 18 years, Then the truth came out. Yes, Ayn Rand and Nathaniel Branden had been sleeping together.Rather than accepting this as what happened, many of these people (I'm talking about the pro-Rand fanatics) cultivated an enormous resentment and they channeled it further into isolating themselves and nourishing their hatred.When ARI started publishing Rand's unpublished stuff, they were heavily edited and at times seriously altered. For them, Rand always had to be shown in the best possible light, irrespective of what she actually wrote. And whenever possible, the Brandens were written out of Rand's history.A good example is the recordings they sold of Rand's fiction writing course. Imagine this. A living room full of adoring students and Rand in front of them giving them a series of masterclasses on fiction writing. Intimate setting. Master and disciples. Now imagine lots of questions from students and answers by Rand. At this time Barbara and Nathaniel were there, so they obviously asked questions and Rand answered them. All this was recorded.Now imagine compiling the recording of this--over 23 hours, chopped down from the original 48--and putting it on the market. This is what the fundies (fundamentalists) did. They called it "Lectures on Fiction Writing." But with one change. Every time Nathaniel or Barbara would ask a question, their voices were deleted, literally deleted from the audio, and a voice-over would enter and say, "At this point in the lecture, a student asked Miss Rand the following question..."I don't know if you have ever worked with audio recordings, but 48 hours is a crap-load of stuff to edit.That's a lot of hate.There are many things like this that have happened over the years. Now let's get to the story.I don't want to drag you into a pro-Valliant or anti-Valliant polemic, but the story perfectly illustrates one reason why people are so reluctant to accept you being you without further corroboration. But, please do not take my word for anything. Look it up. There are plenty of places to do this. Then come to your own conclusions.The story is about Wikipedia. But before I get there, some background. James Valliant wrote a book trying to debunk the image of Rand that was presented in the biographical books by Nathaniel Branden and Barbara Branden. That's what he said. But if you manage to read his thing, you also detect the agenda of the pro-Rand fanatics I gave above.Now, during the promotion of Valliant's book when it came out, something people sometimes call the "PARC wars" (PARC stands for the book's title, The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics), a small band of pro-Rand fanatics would go everywhere they could where the Brandens were discussed and bash them. They would create post after long post in rapid fire and hog the discussions. They created false accounts and played them off each other. They were snarky and nasty, almost a caricature of cult members, but they always played the victim and were overly polite to strangers.One of the reasons Kat and I started OL was to make sure there was a place these fanatics would not invade and people could discuss the Brandens (including disagree with them), but without all the character smears.As an aside, you asked somewhere what a sockpuppet is. This is a designation Wikipedia made for false accounts and phony personas used to make edits that favored the real person. This term "took" in the general Internet world, so now everybody uses it to mean an invented persona made to promote some kind of product or agenda.While I'm at it, here is what troll means. A troll is simply a person who posts on forums and blogs in order to call people names and try to bully people. Most trolls use pseudonyms, but some go under their own names. In case you don't know what Wikipedia is, it is an Internet encyclopedia where users write the entries and add to them. I'm sure you can see how this would interest people with an agenda to push or even spammers. But Wikipedia has a staff to make sure there are no abuses. A very busy staff, I might add, because abusers abound.And this is where the Valliants come in. That is, with Wikipedia. After the PARC wars had been going on for some time, both James and his wife Holly started editing Wikipedia entries whenever the name Ayn Rand came up (or Branden, or Objectivism, etc.). They promoted the pro-Rand fanatic agenda, and they also plugged PARC wherever they could.They started getting flack and warnings from the Wikipedia staff, their edits started being deleted, so they created sockpuppet accounts to help argue their case and make edits. They were very, very busy for several months of doing this while bickering with Wikipedia's staff. They got caught time and time again. The moderators finally got fed up and banned them from Wikipedia for an extended period. Most of their edits and additions--the vast majority--have been deleted.During this time there were people swearing up and down that the Valliants would never do such a thing, yada yada yada. But, like with the affair between AR and NB, there is no denying the facts when they become so evident a child can see them.Now, as I said, I mention this, not because I want you to take any side. I think you should read everything and check out everything. As the saying goes, trust but verify.I mention it to show that even a prominent person in our subculture, one who was entrusted to publish excerpts from Rand's diary, can do some really crazy stupid crap and use false personas to do it.This is why, as a forum owner, I have to trust but verify.I'm sorry if some of this hurts your feelings. I have no wish for that.As to other things, I have lots of stuff I want to say, like your story would make one hell of a book. But first you have to learn who is who and what is what in O-Land. Listen to all the gossip and learn about all the schisms. This is going to take time.I believe you should bop around the subculture a bit when you get the time. Meet the fanatics, meet the haters, meet the middle people, meet the scholars, all of them.And, of course, read. Read everything from all sides.Your mind is precious and you have a unique position as Frank's niece in this subculture if you want to build on it.btw - Here is a great place to get a bird's eye view of the entire subculture: The Objectivism Reference Center. There is no affiliation between OL and there. I just think the guy (Richard Lawrence) does a hell of a good job and is about as non-partisan as you will find.Also, should you have any questions on things that confuse you about what is this, why people do that, etc., I am willing to answer them. But once again, I should stress that they will be my views. And you should go out and get others. Then come to your own conclusions. I am a human being and, for as objective as I try to be, I do have my druthers. In fact, I believe this cross-checking should apply to everyone you talk to about everything, but it's your life. Your choices.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Biggers Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 ...the more I heard about Aunt Alice saying she was an Atheist since she was 10, My uncle since he was nine, all the things you all our telling me...my whole life has been a lie.We don't know that it's true that they were atheists at that young of an age. Aunt Alice was a Romanticist, and she sometimes romanticized the events and timeline her own life, as well as those of others, and she also sometimes demonized people. The romantic contrast that she preferred sometimes didn't match reality. I'd say that the only way to know for sure if Frank was an atheist, and when he might have become one, would be directly from his having written a statement saying so.JJonathan,Saying that Rand "romanticized" the stories about her and Frank's early decisions to become atheists, is a polite way to say that the lady lied.because reality did not match up with her idea of what it "should" be. Well, if that is the case, then why stop there? Perhaps she made-up the whole story of her life and managed to convince Barbara Branden that it was the truth? And the others around her , many of whom were later interviewed by Anne Heller, were also liars, or were taken in by Rand.So, even though there is a huge amount of corroborating evidence from others that confirms most details of Ayn Rand's life, it's not true. The others were either naive or co-conspirators in creating the fiction of Ayn Rand's life.If we are to take this severe an estimate of Ayn Rand, than on what basis, what method, do we evaluate the claims of Cathy Dupler, as they relate to her interactions with Aunt Alice. who she says was Ayn Rand? She offers virtually no corroborating evidence on any of her assertions (with the exception, apparently, of birth/death records - which offers no evidence regarding her story - she may be a relative of Frank's, but that's not the issue here) regarding her stories of her interactions with Aunt Alice and nothing to support her claims of multiple visitations by Frank and Ayn to the O'Connor home in Ohio (other than the one for the funeral of Frank's father, and later driving crosscountry and stopping in Cleveland in 1951, both prior to her birth).Maybe we should just accept her story at face value. Which story? Her account keeps changing because, she claims, things are just now coming back to her, perhaps due to questioning either prompting her memory, or providing material to incorporate. But then again, she says she does not want to remember. And now, Aunt Alice/Ayn has changed from being a celebrity to a tender care provider/nanny (a whole new aspect of Ayn, never before recounted), and then to an ogre, who she blames for not saving her when her father could no longer take care of her (and throwing in a gratuitous mocking/sarcastic slur at the "greatest philosopher of the 20th century"). That last comment may reveal more than she intended. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KacyRay Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 Cathy,The one thing I would hate for you to come away from all of this with is the belief that Barbara Branden bears ill-will toward Frank O'Conner, or has in any way spoken ill of him. Nothing could be farther from the truth.I just read her book a couple months ago, and I can tell you that her description of Frank is one of a likable, friendly, warm human being who handled a very unconventional situation the best way he knew how. At no time was he spoken badly about. If I could, I'd gladly give you my copy of the book so that you could read it for yourself.She did not smear him. She didn't smear Ms. Rand either, but that's a different conversation.Disclaimer: I don't speak for Barbara Branden. My above statement is my own conclusion that I've drawn from reading her words in her bio, as well as her words on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 If the index of Barbara's biography of Rand is correct, there is only one mention of Bill O'Connor in the entire book. That mention is in a sentence on pg. 84:The O'Connor family consisted of seven children, Nick, Joe, Frank, Agnes, Margaret, Bill, and Elizabeth; three other children had been born, but two died at birth and the third of scarlet fever at the age of six.In addition to being named in that sentence, Agnes is referred to in a sentence on pg. 85:The boys worshipped their domineering mother, Frank's sister Agnes would recall..When and to whom Agnes recalled this isn't stated. Agnes isn't listed in the named persons who were interviewed, but the list isn't complete. (Barbara stated that she couldn't list everyone and that some people didn't want to be named.)On pg. 318-319, Barbara talks about Rand going to Portland, Oregon, in 1963 to receive an honorary doctorate from Lewis and Clark College. Barbara doesn't mention Rand's giving a speech at Chicago's McCormick Place on the way, and Rand's inviting her Chicago relatives to attend that talk. (Heller supplies the information about the relatives being invited. The trip was late in the year, fall. Barbara doesn't say that either.)Might Ayn and Frank have stopped in Ohio going or returning on that trip?Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 Michael, thank you very much, I am having a hard time understanding the words most of you use. I did go to school, but I've spent most of my life raising children. I can tell, I am just not as smart as everyone on here. I am not use to computers or these sites, plus with everything else I'm hearing about my memories can not be tract down...I feel frustrated and angry because these were the only good memories I have during that period of my life. I just read that they went to Oregon in 63...I wonder if that was the year she came to my mother's house and taught us the Russian prayer???? Michael, so you know now I am who I say I am...right? When I first went onto SOLO, I just hurriedly read through some of what Branden wrote, and I thought it was her that said all those mean things about Uncle Frank. I wanted to protect him, because I remember the most gentle, warm, caring, kind man I've every known to this day. There is a lot I'm finding out that hurts me terribly, and I don't think I'm going to read anything yet until I get my feeling straight on what I know so far. Thank you Michael for all your patients with me ~Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 Jerry, it was all a lie. Really, how can one person be Aunt Alice, who put on this act that she was almost motherly, but had an abortion, who would look lovingly at my uncle, but had an affair, who taught us a Russian prayer, but was Atheist, who didn't tell us who she really was, lie of ommision...an then be this outspoken activist woman Ayn Rand???? It was all a lie! I don't have any reason to lie...she did! ~Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 Ellen, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. You have stood up for me countless of times. Nobody but me know how hard this is, but you and Michael come close. I already came this far, and I'm not going to suppress anymore memories...I know what I know and no matter what these other people say (Neil for one) can kiss my ass! Thank you Ellen. ~Cathy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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