CNA

A friend sent this to me and wanted to post them here for whomever may find them funny. Some of it is absolutely hilarious. The first one can be inflammatory and a few here may find it offensive, so view at your own risk if you will. Achmed -- The Dead Terrorist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouDRDzqTu0M Spark of Insanity -- Walter Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I226Sfgs0s Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFelEa8wAIk&feature=related Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb12nQEOyfM&NR=1

Nah, he ain't losin' his mind. Oh, god, you guys are killing me right now. Oh hell, it's seriously been one of those weeks. Too much damn work, all the cleaning up of people's really bad English and/or attempting to punctuate somewhat half way decent and their poor English, etc., all day has made me a bit loopy and perhaps a much needed break. *phew* Shane, even though you said, "Losing his posts," I initially thought it said, "Losing his pants, and now, losing his mind...." Oh, man, and then the rest of it, I got this visual in my head of it and *phew* can't stop laughing. Damn, I think it's time for a much needed quick nap to recharge a bit or a few hours nap and then more work. Thanks for the laughs though!!!

LOL!!! I'm glad you saw the humor. Oh my!! I must admit I do have a strange sense of humor sometimes or perhaps most of the time. Oi When reading your post, I had this visual in my head and couldn't help but giggle. *sighing* It's been one of those weeks.

Brant, please no offense taken but you are truly sooo funny and cute. I've seen some funny funny stuff going on these past few days but this one and your responses and reactions are just absolutely classic and took the cake and can't help but laugh so hard. No probs telling us what you think and then the pissed off as usual had me laughing. Then your attempt at it again and the third was the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak. It's like a kid running from the scene of something that went wrong saying, I didn't touch it; it was broke when I got there. Seriously laughing hard and cheeks hurt from smiling so much. Although you're upset and not laughing at that but just how cute you've responded to it and the way you've worded your frustration with it. Take a deep breath, hon!!!!

Mike, I am so sorry to hear about your loss. You and your family have my deepest condolences. It's not an easy process when you lose someone you care deeply for but you will get through it; take it day by day and you'll see that as time goes on, each day will soon get a little bit easier. It can be a life altering event for the loved ones left behind and truly can make you look very hard at your own life; your past decisions that you have made and why you have made those decisions, looking at what emotions you are having or not having and why as it pertains to that specific person that is now no longer here. I was very close with my grandmother. She was dxd with cancer and then Alzheimers which in a way was a blessing if you will for her. When she passed and all that happened, it was a rough time for me but many beautiful things came from it and ultimately changed my life and to some degree my thought processes and re-evaluating and analyzing even deeper; how it ultimately affected me in the long run philosophically and psychologically. After my grandmother's passing, I began to have my own major health problems that became life threatening and spanned many years and fighting so hard, being on the brink and then regaining health and then repeat again, it was also another life altering experience on many many levels. Yesterday, we found out that my mother has breast cancer stage 3 but the degree of stage 3 is unknown at this point and the cancer has spread into her lymph nodes. Unfortunately, the mass is very large and we don't know yet the prognosis but doesn't look good from the preliminary tests performed. We do know that a bilateral mastectomy is needed as well as chemotherapy and radiation will be needed in an attempt to save her life. I'm sorry to hear of Dennis' past experience and not having more power in decision making when it came to care. For my mother though and past events, I have yet to be appointed power of attorney again for her as I once was and making medical decisions for her, although I have already informally taken charge of this aspect with her permission and getting things situated and moving very quickly for her, medical leave, disability paperwork, etc., and will be helping her to make informed decisions and what will hopefully be in her best interest given the circumstances at the time. She's been completely distraught as would be expected but doing a bit better today considering. Will take it one step at a time, one day at a time; just as you should. My thoughts and emotions are a bit mixed with this one for various reasons but will sort through them as I always do and putting them in order and why for each one. Mike, it's not easy in the least bit as you know to lose someone or to witness their dying. But whatever you do, do not supress the emotions as this can cut and probably will cut more deeply later on. Sort through them as to why you are feeling certain emotions and why you are not having certain emotions that you think you should be having. Every situation is different. Every grieving process is different for each person in how it relates to you and the individual that was lost. Also don't dwell too long and allowing negative emotions and thoughts to overtake you. It needs to be balanced out. Working through it of course but also taking time out for YOU to enjoy your life, what brings you happiness, start a project you've been wanting to start to keep you focussed and mind off the difficult time. I know harder said than done but it will get easier. Concentrate on the good times with your mom, her achievements, and so forth. Also please know as I know you do that she is no longer suffering. This latter one helped me tremendously with my grandmother because of the amount of suffering she was going through. Try to keep a positive outlook; fight for that sense of life you know you have. It will get easier and you will survive. You're a strong man and will get through. Angie

You haven't done "thorough research." You haven't done any research. You haven't even yet grasped the meaning of the Sublime that Kant, Burke, Shaftesbury, Longinus and all other philosophers were dealing with, or what role it played in the development of Romanticism, or the similarities that it has to Rand's concept of Romantic Realism. You're too busy looking at everything with the purpose of trying to validate Rand's silly, uninformed judgment of Kant's aesthetics rather than actually trying to understand the ideas that he and other philosophers were addressing. J My two cents real quick and observations of what's going on here and not directed at anyone in particular. Just found this particular statement of interest. I'm not familiar with Kant's work, let alone do I have a desire to read any of his work as well as some other writers. I'm sure this will be frowned upon by so many here and what I've said. But I do have to say I live my life according to what has made me the happiest and it is primarily based on my own firsthand knowledge, experience, and understanding of what happened to me so long ago and not from what I've read in a book. I do read in the areas of my passion as well as looking at the evidence as it is presented to me, amongst other things that I take into consideration. I do have to say philosophy is a passion of mine but it's not from what I've read in a book and ultimately what I've read in that book and applying it to my life. It's based on what happened to me so when it comes to my philosophy and what I have built, my ideas, they truly are my own and what has brought me happiness, a lot that does line up with Rand's but some that do not. I haven't kept track of everything that has been said on this thread and don't have much of an interest to continue to do so. My interest only started when I saw lastnight so many people gathering around it so obviously this is a very hot topic for everyone and it sparked my curiousity as to why. In fact, in what I have read thus far from so many on this thread, I find it interesting that there are so many different versions of understanding of what everyone thinks was said by Kant, Rand, and so forth and how each should live their life or what have you. In my observations and experiences over my lifetime even up until most recently, people have a tendency - for their own reasons as to why - to focus on what they are most interested in or sticks out to them the most at that time when reading what they've chosen to read while overlooking other important aspects and/or taking things out of context that they think should be part of it and their not looking at the circumstances in detail of each subject that is presented and/or missing a very important sentence and what is being presented thus resulting in a misunderstanding and confusion. It's good rather than read something once or twice but to read it many times over as objectively and impartially as you can and analyzing each paragraph and sentence if necessary in an attempt to ensure that the person understands what the writer is trying to convey and get across. One of the downfalls and such the nature of online forums that can be quite grating sometimes and a major turn off. Anyway, just an observation of mine and wanted to throw out my two cents if you will. Let your guy's debate continue. Angie (post) I did edit this to make sure there is no confusion on what I am trying to say. Angie, Your perspective is just fine and most everyone is glad you're here. Nobody wants to crowd you out or make you feel cognitive dissonance because there is a popular topic that doesn't appeal to you. Jim Jim, Oh, no. I'm not worried about my perspective and how others will take it. Over the years with OL and other O'ist sites too and seeing the same things over and over and over, it really just loses a lot of appeal. My tolerance level dwindles rather quickly for bullshit, disrespect, and the issues that I noted above and then my deciding whether or not to continue exposing myself to it. That's all. I'm not saying what you guys are discussing is bullshit because it's not. I found one statement in particular of interest and how I've observed many many people to be. It is what it is and whether or not I continue to associate with areas, people or sites, that ulitmately have a snowball effect and this irritation it can evoke, not only in me, but others I have known who have also decided to stay away from online sites for stretches at a time. It gets old real quick. Whatever floats ya boat, to each their own. Angie Angie, It's true that online forums have limitations, but they also have strengths. I've tried many different routes with Objectivism: college classroom, college campus club, public lectures (Reisman), summer seminars, taped lectures, adult discussion groups, bringing up Objectivist topics at libertarian discussion groups, etc. Each has its advantages and I would say the advantage of online forums is frequency and reach. I feel lucky to have a couple of terrific local clubs in Arizona. I even think that taking breaks from formal Objectivism is healthy to clear certain persistent thought patterns. I think online anything has to be balanced with lots of real life. Jim Yes, it does have its advantages and outreach more quickly. But also do the same things with friends that I have met here through OL and other places in email and phone conversations which is very nice to have. I do intend here very soon though to start attending meet up groups down here where I live. But I'm hesitant to go to ARI which is very close to me for obvious reasons; I'm really not interested in the whole ortho deal and would like to find a group smaller, more intimate if you will. I'm not much for crowds at all. But anyway, no disrespect please, Jim or anyone else, I would prefer not to talk about this too much further for various reasons. It was not my intention to hijack the thread. Jonathon made an observation that I found of interest and wanted to comment on and my observations over the years as to how people can be. That's all. Angie

You haven't done "thorough research." You haven't done any research. You haven't even yet grasped the meaning of the Sublime that Kant, Burke, Shaftesbury, Longinus and all other philosophers were dealing with, or what role it played in the development of Romanticism, or the similarities that it has to Rand's concept of Romantic Realism. You're too busy looking at everything with the purpose of trying to validate Rand's silly, uninformed judgment of Kant's aesthetics rather than actually trying to understand the ideas that he and other philosophers were addressing. J My two cents real quick and observations of what's going on here and not directed at anyone in particular. Just found this particular statement of interest. I'm not familiar with Kant's work, let alone do I have a desire to read any of his work as well as some other writers. I'm sure this will be frowned upon by so many here and what I've said. But I do have to say I live my life according to what has made me the happiest and it is primarily based on my own firsthand knowledge, experience, and understanding of what happened to me so long ago and not from what I've read in a book. I do read in the areas of my passion as well as looking at the evidence as it is presented to me, amongst other things that I take into consideration. I do have to say philosophy is a passion of mine but it's not from what I've read in a book and ultimately what I've read in that book and applying it to my life. It's based on what happened to me so when it comes to my philosophy and what I have built, my ideas, they truly are my own and what has brought me happiness, a lot that does line up with Rand's but some that do not. I haven't kept track of everything that has been said on this thread and don't have much of an interest to continue to do so. My interest only started when I saw lastnight so many people gathering around it so obviously this is a very hot topic for everyone and it sparked my curiousity as to why. In fact, in what I have read thus far from so many on this thread, I find it interesting that there are so many different versions of understanding of what everyone thinks was said by Kant, Rand, and so forth and how each should live their life or what have you. In my observations and experiences over my lifetime even up until most recently, people have a tendency - for their own reasons as to why - to focus on what they are most interested in or sticks out to them the most at that time when reading what they've chosen to read while overlooking other important aspects and/or taking things out of context that they think should be part of it and their not looking at the circumstances in detail of each subject that is presented and/or missing a very important sentence and what is being presented thus resulting in a misunderstanding and confusion. It's good rather than read something once or twice but to read it many times over as objectively and impartially as you can and analyzing each paragraph and sentence if necessary in an attempt to ensure that the person understands what the writer is trying to convey and get across. One of the downfalls and such the nature of online forums that can be quite grating sometimes and a major turn off. Anyway, just an observation of mine and wanted to throw out my two cents if you will. Let your guy's debate continue. Angie (post) I did edit this to make sure there is no confusion on what I am trying to say. Angie, Your perspective is just fine and most everyone is glad you're here. Nobody wants to crowd you out or make you feel cognitive dissonance because there is a popular topic that doesn't appeal to you. Jim Jim, Oh, no. I'm not worried about my perspective and how others will take it. Over the years with OL and other O'ist sites too and seeing the same things over and over and over, it really just loses a lot of appeal. My tolerance level dwindles rather quickly for bullshit, disrespect, and the issues that I noted above and then my deciding whether or not to continue exposing myself to it. That's all. I'm not saying what you guys are discussing is bullshit because it's not. I found one statement in particular of interest and how I've observed many many people to be. It is what it is and whether or not I continue to associate with areas, people or sites, that ulitmately have a snowball effect and this irritation it can evoke, not only in me, but others I have known who have also decided to stay away from online sites for stretches at a time. It gets old real quick. Whatever floats ya boat, to each their own. Angie

Repeated post.

You haven't done "thorough research." You haven't done any research. You haven't even yet grasped the meaning of the Sublime that Kant, Burke, Shaftesbury, Longinus and all other philosophers were dealing with, or what role it played in the development of Romanticism, or the similarities that it has to Rand's concept of Romantic Realism. You're too busy looking at everything with the purpose of trying to validate Rand's silly, uninformed judgment of Kant's aesthetics rather than actually trying to understand the ideas that he and other philosophers were addressing. J My two cents real quick and observations of what's going on here and not directed at anyone in particular. Just found this particular statement of interest. I'm not familiar with Kant's work, let alone do I have a desire to read any of his work as well as some other writers. I'm sure this will be frowned upon by so many here and what I've said. But I do have to say I live my life according to what has made me the happiest and it is primarily based on my own firsthand knowledge, experience, and understanding of what happened to me so long ago and not from what I've read in a book. I do read in the areas of my passion as well as looking at the evidence as it is presented to me, amongst other things that I take into consideration. I do have to say philosophy is a passion of mine but it's not from what I've read in a book and ultimately what I've read in that book and applying it to my life. It's based on what happened to me so when it comes to my philosophy and what I have built, my ideas, they truly are my own and what has brought me happiness, a lot that does line up with Rand's but some that do not. I haven't kept track of everything that has been said on this thread and don't have much of an interest to continue to do so. My interest only started when I saw lastnight so many people gathering around it so obviously this is a very hot topic for everyone and it sparked my curiousity as to why. In fact, in what I have read thus far from so many on this thread, I find it interesting that there are so many different versions of understanding of what everyone thinks was said by Kant, Rand, and so forth and how each should live their life or what have you. In my observations and experiences over my lifetime even up until most recently, people have a tendency - for their own reasons as to why - to focus on what they are most interested in or sticks out to them the most at that time when reading what they've chosen to read while overlooking other important aspects and/or taking things out of context that they think should be part of it and their not looking at the circumstances in detail of each subject that is presented and/or missing a very important sentence and what is being presented thus resulting in a misunderstanding and confusion. It's good rather than read something once or twice but to read it many times over as objectively and impartially as you can and analyzing each paragraph and sentence if necessary in an attempt to ensure that the person understands what the writer is trying to convey and get across. One of the downfalls and such the nature of online forums that can be quite grating sometimes and a major turn off. Anyway, just an observation of mine and wanted to throw out my two cents if you will. Let your guy's debate continue. Angie (post) I did edit this to make sure there is no confusion on what I am trying to say.

In what posts did I write that a person should never drink for fear of becoming an alcoholic? I drink alcohol on occasion as I have stated and you know this. *sighing* In a great majority of my posts, I have ended it with something such as to each their own, use at your own risk but make sure to make informed decisions, knowing the consequences of those actions and so forth. Anyway. That's all you had to say.

Perhaps should have worded what I said in a different manner but nevertheless could use a control group for it. But you could still project given the current statistics and what it would be but wouldn't be accurate enough but would definitely give a gauge of it. What I was pointing out to George is that it's difficult to claim given the expansive gap and the numbers between the two groups that more people have died from prescription drugs than that of drug users when one group is drastically smaller just wouldn't work so difficult to use that as an argument.

George, Yes, of course, I could easily break my neck and die due to an accident falling down the stairs. But please keep context. We are talking about drug use. Oh, man, you have to bring up prescription drugs. Apparently you must not know my medical history and oh, boy. But for starters, statisically speaking, it is difficult to claim that more people die from prescription drugs as compared to marijuana, cocaine, and heroin considering the number of people is exponential who take prescription drugs on a daily basis as to the much smaller number of people that are drug users. I would be most interested to see the statistics say for instance if the number of people was equal across both arenas in the world who take prescription drugs and who die from it as compared to the "same number" of people who use drugs and die, from overdose, car accidents, and so forth. I'm sure it would be quite an eye opener and would show how the mortality rates from drug use would far exceed those who take prescription drugs. Also interesting that you bring up the prescription drug use, medicines that have been created to further man's life, to enhance their quality of life; to make man's life that much easier, drugs that may very well keep a woman or man alive. There's tremendous evidence to show that drugs such as heroin, cocaine, PCP, meth, etc., cause more problems and destruction of lives than they do good. If necessary, I will break down both of these aspects in more detail and comparisons of the two. I know both of these worlds all too well because of my past drug use and seeing firsthand what it does, what it did to me, observing others who were once great men and women who have wasted their lives away. But I also know the world of prescription medications -- 9 in total that I take daily and that have prolonged my life and has made my quality of life that much easier as compared to before. Literally, if it was not for these prescription drugs, I probably would not be here today. Yes, there have been a few drug users that have accomplished quite a bit. But the real question is: Does a great man or woman need such drugs to be highly successful, to accomplish and achieve a tremendous amount? The answer is no. It begs the question what in the above named people's lives were they missing or lacking that they ultimately resorted to using drugs to replace or to cover up as compared to the individuals who have achieved a tremendous amount, accomplished, very successful wherein they did not need those types of drugs in order to attain it? I leave the last statement of yours and the most important one and is the one I am most interested in hearing above all others and that is introspection for you and to be brutally honest with yourself -- to describe and apply this to your own life, what you've gone through, how it made you feel, how it affected you ultimately, the pain that was there, the decisions you made in regards to your drug use that ultimately brought you this pain, suffering, destruction; your almost financial ruin and this financial ruin being close on its heels each day that you were dumping more and more money into it....that damn vicious cycle again....but this is the last statement: After everything that you have been through, based on your own firsthand knowledge, experience, and understanding, how would you approach your past drug use in a reasonable manner? With what you know now, would you repeat the same decisions and actions that you once did and possibly risking the same outcome that you are so well aware of; a very painful time in your life? If necessary, I will go over to the Atlantis Addiction thread and will post some very valuable pieces of information that you have provided and your thought processes at that time from when you started, how it progressed, and how you ultimately realized it was destroying you and that it was in your best interest to stop it and ultimately making the decision to do what was best for you and to further your own life. Again, damn, there's that life and death choice. Again, to each their own, each person has the right to make the decision as to whether or not they want to pursue drug use for whatever their reasons may be but again informed decisions and knowing the consquences of such actions beforehand makes a world of difference. But prepared to take full responsibility for those decisions and actions whether they be good for you or bad for you. Angie P.S. Back to work today as usual and deadlines and expedite approaching but will do what I can to respond when I can.

It's quite odd to lump these substances together, as if a drug is a drug is a drug. I once knew a hard-core junkie whose arms were so scarred with needle tracks that she never wore short-sleeve shirts, and who had used heroin for so many years that there was barely a usable vein left in her entire body. I once asked this woman about PCP (which I have never tried). She replied, "Stay away from that shit; it's nasty." When a dedicated junkie says something like this, people should listen. Moreover, how people react to the same drug can be very different. I knew coke-users who could make a gram last for a week or more; they had no problem stopping. I knew other coke-users who would snort an eight-ball (3-1/2 grams) in one sitting and then try to score more. I have also known people who can smoke a lot of pot while remaining highly functional, in contrast to people who veg out after a few tokes. Some people have a high tolerance for certain drugs, while others have a low tolerance. In short, it is difficult to generalize about the effects of drugs on different people. The same is true of alcohol consumption. We all know of people who get jolly when then get drunk and others who get downright nasty. Ghs You are absolutely correct in how it affects people in different ways and that is why I stated in a prior post of "I'm not saying that this happens to everyone because obviously it doesn't but the consequences and seeing it firsthand is some scary ass shit and this truly one of the most dreadful end results." My point being is that this could be the end result short of actual death. You can't predict how each person is going to react to different substances but ultimately the consequences and the end results can be utter devastation. So why risk it? It's similar to saying, "Well, it happens to other people but not to me." So it's not a generalization and you've missed my point. Again, what I'm talking about and pointing out is: This is reality and these are some of the end results. You can't predict to what degree of devastation and how each person will react to it. Did I ever think that my mom's alcohol abuse or anyone else for that matter who knew her as a pretty happy drunk and high functioning for many many years would ultimately end up years later with Wet Brain? Definitely not. If it happens to these people, it can easily happen to you.

I'm not so much making an issue of this in regards to Rand. I'm just quite surprised to hear or read this, especially coming from someone such as Rand. Obviously as you can tell and I am sure others as well I am very much against drug use and/or heavy alcohol use and I don't want to come off as a "preacher" that everyone despises because we have an ex user and now they voice strong opinions of those that use it -- although be it, caffeine, etc., etc. I'm not speaking in this context as to these types of stimulants. I'm going to share a bit of a very hard core reality that most I am sure are not even aware of with the exception of a few that were themselves of heavy users or what have you. You make decisions based on the knowledge that you possess at that given time. But ultimately reality is truly the final judge. If Rand was aware of this reality and her being as rational as she was, she would have thought twice I am sure about popping another pill. It's the ultimate of dayaammm....this is what NOT to do and you take a long hard look at hard core reality as it is presented to you and it's heavy shit. You learn from watching other people on what NOT to do. I'm going to share a few stories of my own experiences with drugs as well as those that are or were very close to me. I never became addicted to any of the drugs that I was using when I was much younger. It was very easy for me to stop without any hardcore damage being inflicted, no withdrawls that I can remember at least. But I do have a scary story and a serious eye opener of smoking weed that came from a dealer I knew very well but was laced with whatever it was (he wasn't even aware of it) and that ultimately jacked me up pretty severely -- scary shit of being aware of my surroundings but completely paralyzed and unable to move, couldn't speak, but was conscious lying on the pavement and aware of what was going on around me, hearing what was being said. I would temporarily gain mobility and attempted to get up which would induce violent vomitting and then another episode of being completely paralyzed and crashing to the pavement and again being fully aware of my surroundings but unable to move, unable to speak. I was perhaps 15 or 16 years old when this happened. This went on for many many hours that night. They wanted to take me to the emergency but during the short periods where I could come to and able to move and able to speak I told them no and not to take me to the hospital. You know, you can have a reputable dealer so to speak if you want to call it that but you truly don't know what is in that shit you're buying and/or smoking. I read about half way through of the Addiction posts from Atlantis in the Addiction forum. I read a bit of George's story and a few others and I found it interesting but also had to chuckle a bit and the reason being is because of the crap I have seen, hardcore reality, that far exceeds anything that is on that thread. Aside from the evasion, the inability to think and destroying man's mind, the pain, grouping, being driven by emotions, etc., and the reasons people decide to ultimately do drugs, I give those that have been through it themselves more credit rather than those that sit in their ivory towers drawing conclusions and attempting to argue their points when they have absolutely no firsthand knowledge and experience with it. BUT there are those that have enough sense to know and to form an opinion that it is not for them by either what they have been told or by what they have observed without having a direct experience with it but again sometimes difficult for arguments to hold water when they don't have experience or haven't seen reality for what it truly is. I read about the physiological aspects and the physical withdrawls and those that say it is a myth as well as other views on that thread. What you see in detox centers and/or rehabs for users is the lighter side of reality and what happens with drug use and this 3 to 4 days of detox is nothing when a drug user attempts to stop on her/his own. When you have a sustained level of these drugs in your system for a long period of time and then as soon as it starts to dip because their use of the drug has wavered from the levels the body has been used to over an extended period of time, detox begins. Sometimes the users will continue the detox on their own or they will go on binges in an attempt to ward off the symptoms and bringing that level back up to the level that their body has already grown accustomed to. The cravings may become stronger during this period. The user may or may not be aware of this and why their body is triggering this response. BUT if they are so far gone, that binge and attempting to ward off the symptoms will only make the attempted detox worse and they will continue to decline until a 5150 or 5250 is warranted and/or coma and/or death. As I said earlier, you make decisions based on the present knowledge that you have. But reality is truly the final judge. I'll explain a bit this reality that I am sure most are not even aware of when it comes to drug use and/or alcohol use. Again, if Rand and her being so rational knew about this reality and saw it firsthand as I did, I am sure her drug use would have stopped immediately. Mind you, I had already stopped all drug use by the time I was exposed to this aspect and the consequences of drug use and it truly makes me happy of being straight and narrow. You know, it is sort of similar to scared straight type of programs. This isn't only in regards to alcohol abuse but also in regards to amphetamines, heroin, and so forth. Short of actual death from use and overdose but unfortunately it is more prolonged and a worse fate if you will. Death would be a blessing if you will. To give a bit of background, my mother was a heavy heavy drinker for many many years, 24/7, woke up and started to drink and continued to drink until she went to sleep and continued this behavior year after year after year, estimated 30 to 35 years plus of this behavior, if not longer. The hand shaking from a long time alcohol abuser is just the beginning. I'm not saying that this happens to everyone because obviously it doesn't but the consequences and seeing it firsthand is some scary ass shit and this truly one of the most dreadful end results. I've been through a lot of heavy shit in my life, more so than most will ever see in their lifetimes and I'm able to withstand a lot and going through shit, but man, the minute you walk through those doors, all you want to do is get out of there as quickly as possible, instant stress, wanting to vomit because of hardcore reality being presented to you as it is. I have learned a lot and been through a lot in the short time that I've been here. I'm going to try to keep this short if at all possible. Towards the end of my mother's heavy drinking, mental faculties began to decline and also the deficiencies of what her body needed in order to function were severely depleted because of the alcohol abuse. She attempted to cut back on her drinking on her own which of course triggered the detox symptoms. They became severe, cravings increased, and she began to binge heavily in an attempt to bring the levels back up to what her body was used to and to reverse it but this only made it worse. I won't go into all the details of what happened in the home with an alcoholic that was suffering from what is called Wet Brain. At that time, nobody knew what was happening. Her first 5150 hold happened which I visited her in the psyche ward, county hospital where they primarily deal with 5150s and 5250s only. 3/4s of the people in these wards are alcohol and/or drug users suffering from mental disorders triggered by heavy alcohol and/or drug consumption or who have had a bad reaction if you will from whatever they took. When I walked up to the front counter in the office before being permitted to go into the ward itself, you speak with the doctors and the nurses and they warn you of what you are about to see and experience in an attempt to prepare you because it is some heavy heavy shit. I remember them telling me, "Are you sure you want to go back there? Do you think you'll be able to handle it?" Of course, I said yes, my mother was in there. They walked me to the door and waiting for it to be unlocked and again was told by one of the doctors, "After everything we told you, are you sure you want to do this?" I said yes. I was told not to get to close to people, not to make direct eye contact, etc., and to go directly to the room I was wanting to go into. Oh, MY GOD, the second I walked through those doors and what I saw, instant feeling of wanting to puke, overwhelming stress and anxiety. Most everyone in the ward was suffering from Wet Brain, drug induced pyschosis, bad trips, bad reactions to whatever they took. People walking around in strait jackets mumbling and talking to themselves. My looking in rooms and seeing people strapped to beds and unable to move but screaming and yelling because they were being given antipsychotic drugs against their will, mainly Haloperidol to help them continue the detox and attempt to stabilize them without their literally going crazy. People talking to walls, delusional, or having conversations with people that weren't there. My being asked by one of the patients if I wanted to meet her friend that she was talking with but no one was there. People freaking out because of their thinking bugs are all over them or that someone in their room was wanting to kill them but no one was there, rooms that were completely padded and nothing in it such that you see in insane asylums. One person being dragged away by two orderlies. All of this because of freakin' drug use and/or alcohol. I went there a few more times before the 5150 72 hour old was over. She was still suffering the effects of detox and how badly the alcohol use screwed her up. This continued on for weeks and several 5150 holds later and calling the police and their having to forcefully remove her from the home in handcuffs. The last time and when she finally recieved the 5250 hold some crazy ass shit going on in the house -- I called the social worker and the doctor and told them what was happening and that they had to come right away. In order for a 5150 to be done you have to have a social worker or a doctor declare it. They showed up and took her away in a strait jacket, took her to county hospital, placed her on a 5150 hold and then ultimately a 5250 hold thankfully. Long story short and all the BS but it took her almost a year to recover enough to function on her own and take care of herself but even to this day she hasn't fully recovered from it and still has problems with it. I'm not going to go into all the other heavier shit with this and what happened outside of the hospital setting. This truly is hardcore reality and reality truly is the final judge. Anyone can attempt to defend their use of drugs and/or alcohol use or attempt to argue a point when they haven't seen reality for what it truly is but I truly recommend that these individuals and unfortunately Rand herself should have because of her own drug use apparently to take a visit and a stroll through a county hospital psyche ward where they primarily deal with 5150 and 5250 holds wherein a great majority of the patients are there because of their use of drugs or alcohol use and various mental disorders triggered by it or Wet Brain triggered by their use and to see firsthand what reality truly is when it comes to this aspect and then come back and we can talk and debate of how therapuetic it can be.....LMAO. But I do have to say I do get the whole medical marijuana deal and use but hey, you use at your own risk, as long as you know the consequences of what could happen and you make an informed decision regarding it. I guess I have made a bit of an issue with this after all but not really in regards to Rand but more so my experiences and views in regards to such matters and those that use drugs even to a small extent in the appropriate context and appropriate times or what have you. But to be quite honest, given how I know Rand to be, I'm quite surprised to hear about her drug use, although prescriptive amphetamines. Yikes. Dayammm....even after my own drug use and going through all that I went through with it and having enough sense to stop it around the age of 16 or 17, seeing this other shit and hardcore reality later into my early 20s and what my mother went through, even happier to be straight and narrow. I don't look down on Rand in the least bit and hold her also in very high regard but this is an aspect of her life wherein she lived irrationally in my opinion, although difficult for me to claim this because she wasn't aware of this knowledge I am sure during her drug use but in this sense it is contradictory to what she has said in the past or based on the interview and link that Blackhorse provided. We all have contradictions to varying degrees that have to be worked out; some more than others. I have to admit, although straight and narrow, I do drink on the rare occasion but rarely to the point of being obliterated. In the people that I have known, inclusive of my mother, that have had psychotic episodes or mental disorders that were triggered by drug use or alcohol use, as long as they are sober and staying away from it, they're all good and doing well.

Here is the footnote (67) mentioned in the quote above. It is on p. 318: Jennifer gives the place in the Ayn Rand Archives where these letters can be found and mentions 2 other letters by Paterson to Rand in November of 1944 concerning her drug use. That doesn't sound like someone simply following a doctor's prescription until a problem is resolved. That sounds like getting wired qua getting wired. In the opening post giving the 2001 Atlantis discussion [in the original thread in the "Addiction" section of OL], I saw that, like in my own experiences in discussing addiction, some people mocked addicts, claiming that it was ridiculous to imagine Roark sending out to the drug dealer when he got tired. I wonder what they will think once they learn that, albeit with a prescription, this was exactly what Rand did—and she did it while she was finishing her creation of Howard Roark to boot. Michael I had heard about this and her tweaking moments to finish a deadline. We all have our moments of WTF was I thinking type deal. I'm not sure but it sounds as if she possibly enjoyed it. Does anyone know how long the use went on for? Also I am sure back then the use of this drug wasn't well known enough and all the BS that goes along with it. Hmmm....interesting though and how I know speed to be, especially if used in excess and often; ie, bad trips and hallucinations and makes me very curious as to what the extent of her habit was or if it was used only ocassionally. Cocaine never did anything for me so went to crystal meth, peanut butter meth, etc., and a lot more potent than cocaine. I also enjoyed it at first. But dayammm, the bad trips and fucked up hallucinations if used in excess and over a long period of time. Yuck....bad memories of that crap. I also find it interesting, given her age, as to why she didn't pull all nighters without the help of an amphetamine or something to help keep her up. She should have known better and why she would have opted for help, especially given her age at that time. When I have deadlines for work and have to pull all nighters, sometimes staying up two days straight if not longer to get the jobs done and turned in, caffeine, power naps, breaks, etc., is what keeps me going and plus my drive and determination to get it done. Unfortunately deadlines are my life in my profession...always working, never ending, so deadlines are always pressing so I can relate to the deadline issue and the fatigue that is there because of it. Also an interesting aspect is although deadlines and always working, I know she had some weight issues and if she had chronic fatigue, if she was ever tested for possible thyroid problems...these are two huge symptoms...weight issues and contstantly tired. I have thyroid problems but mine was the opposite and once Graves' disease and unfortunately had that tweakin' feeling every single day, day in and day out, for many years. Had been many many years since the last time I did speed. But when it starts to happen naturally because of way too much TSH being pumped out by your thyroid, it becomes a serious drag. I guess one of the beauties of being so familiar with medicine is it definitely expands your knowledge with the possibilities. I'm curious if she had done any research at all on the drug she was prescribed before taking it or if she relied and put faith into the doctor and that he or she knew best. Yikes...another issue here and my own experiences with doctors. Doing heavy research into it first makes a world of difference not only of diseases but of meds that are prescribed and helps enable you to make informed decisions rather than relying on what someone tells you.

Yes, do agree with the relaxation aspects but too many other factors that outweigh this IMO. What I personally had a hard time with not only with pot but crystal meth, PCP, etc., is how it distorted objectivity, my view of reality, and also how it made me felt, and the fact that I could not think -- all things far for me personally of what it means to live life and fulfilling certain spiritual needs. With Ayn's fierce passion I would assume for these aspects, I would have a hard time believing that she would actively pursue intentionally distorting these but she may very well have. But I see you did mention that she enjoyed her glass of wine on occasion which as you know also has a calming effect. I can relate to this. I would no doubt choose the glass of wine over the pot, etc., any day. As you know, there's many different ways to relax and to enjoy ourselves and we all choose what we think is best for us. I'm not that familiar with how Ayn lived her life outside of her philosophy; ie, I know very few of her hobbies, etc. But even for me and just getting a contact high or a bit of a buzz from smoking pot, it's not my thing. Been there done that. My preferences are candles, certain types of aromatics, soothing music, glass of wine perhaps, jacuzzi, hot bubble baths, photography trips by myself, have to say this but good sex, and many others which all bring me relaxation, joy, helps keep me thinking, gets the creative juices flowing, and so forth. To each their own and what each person thinks is best for them and how they ultimately choose. What works for me definitely will not work for another

Interesting. Listened only to the area though where the pot reference was made but will run through the entirety of it soon. Being an ex drug user myself of many many different drugs unfortunately; one being a once heavy pot smoker when I was younger, I doubt very seriously she would have enjoyed it. I once enjoyed it. But at that time and going through everything that I was going through, I realized that I absolutely hated it; greatly interfered with my ability to think. Every time my mind or that inner voice would ask myself a question such as why am I doing this; why am I here; what is it that I am doing, and so forth, I couldn't stay concentrated and focussed long enough to answer the questions and to figure it out; to integrate the two; ie, identification and the cause and effect of it; what am I doing and why; what do I want and why? etc., etc. Oh, god, I absolutely hated how much it interfered with it. The more that I did this I actually found that I enjoyed using my mind and thinking in this manner and definitely got more of a rush and high from it than any drug I had ever used and I did a lot of drugs aside from just pot. Way too much experience in this arena unfortunately. Once I stopped all the drug use, including drinking, I tried smoking pot again and found that I still absolutely hated it; one huge factor is it interfered greatly with my ability to think and haven't touched the shit since. But I do have to say I do drink on the rare occasion depending on where I am or who I am with but other than that been sober from all other drugs for many many years and wouldn't want it any other way and greatly enjoy being sober. At any rate, thanks for posting the link, Blackhorse, interesting indeed. I do have to chuckle at Brant's chronic remark though.....LOL Angie

X ray, There are threads on this site that I choose not to participate in for various reasons, although have my opinions and views; there are also some higher ups in O'ism that encompasses the entirety of O'ism from ARI and elsewhere wherein I dismiss their views entirely for various reasons. I won't go into these reasons with most with the exception of a select few and behind the scenes. I'll be limiting my views and stating them here on OL for various reasons as well. I understand where Piekoff comes from and the health issues and his limiting his own participation in it as well. I unfortunately can relate to this as I have my own health issues as some on here know and heated debates and getting panties all tied up in a wad can be detrimental and takes time to recover unfortunately. Long story with this latter one and what happened. I've listened to Peikoff's podcast. As of right now and in this context, I do agree to a great extent with where he is coming from in that it is a straight out bitch slap in our face to allow such an atrocity to happen and the building of this mosque near Ground Zero. The Pearl Harbor analogy was a good one and reinforced the same bitch slap if allowed and I also agree with the desert island analogy. This latter one, there is much more to it and whether or not one chooses to allow the individual onto his property. Isolation and being alone or to allow for a bit of companionship but this is also dependent on who this other person is. But anyway, I have of course other opinions and views to expand on as to why I agree with Piekoff in this context but probably won't go into them here. There are aspects of his reasoning that I am having some problems with and that is the bombing of the mosque but damn, again, serious bitch slap if allowed to be built. Our government may not do this BUT I can almost gaurantee you that this mosque if allowed to be built is setting themselves up for very serious issues and probably would not be in existence for long because there are people out there that will take such an act of allowing it to be built as a serious insult. An insult that Piekoff holds and I do as well. I do plan on listening to his podcast a number of times more and may very well transcribe it as there are a few areas I had a hard time making out because of his speech. I have not read this entire thread and others' view nor have I read views on this from others in O'ism. I have only listened to this Podcast of Peikoff's. I will more than likely be thinking more about this today and after listening to the podcast a few more times as to what he said and may post or may not post if there are any changes in my view. But as of right now and in this context, I do agree to a large extent with what he said.

I've read a few of the last posts on this thread. Yes, yes, apologize and delay in getting around to reading BUTT !!! it is so nice to finally be able to sit "back"!!!! for long periods of time without being in excruciating pain!!! Woohoo and finally !!! I'll show my face on ocassion. LOL So many here that got into sports. I was never a girlie girl type and was a serious rough houser if you will. Very much a Tom Boy and still this way today to an extent. I was never afforded the opportunity of any type of "organized" extracurricular sporting type activities. BUT boy, when we did play, it was no holds barred. There were very few girls that would play tackle football with the neighborhood boys but I was always game and up for it. Bring it on and let's have some fun. Yikes. Although got hurt frequently and taking hits and my dishing out hits, I have many many great memories of playing football primarily but also did a bit of baseball and was good at this as well. Ran track for a little while; that is, until the girlie aspects started to come into play and that slowed me down quite a bit. LMAO When picking teams and playing outside of school, I was usually the first to be chosen because I wasn't afraid of getting hurt and would lay it on thick if you will. It's funny because when in school I dabbled a tiny bit into the sports that were offered but was quickly booted or was the last to be picked. LOL Too rough with the girls. My last memory of playing football in school was "flag" football. I told my PE teacher I wanted to play with the boys but of course wasn't allowed to my dismay and got stuck with the girls and their "prancing" around on the field. OMG, you can't be freakin' serious. So the last play before getting booted (yeah, I know terrible of me for doing this) but watching the other girls running around and "trying to pull the flags" hanging out of their shorts, okay, sure, whatever. The girl that actually caught the ball was a girl that I did not like at all and had run ins with her if you will. As soon as I saw that she had the ball and now running for the touchdown, I kicked it into high gear after her and passing everyone up in pursuit with a not so nice plan in mind. She's running down the field and all the other girls are trying to keep that girlie composure of being so proper and what is to be expected of a girl and how she is to act in such a situation. Oh, please, give me a break. The typical social norms and what is expected. Oh, my, I still smile at this and what happened. I know not nice but taking out a bit of my own frustration with the situation and her. She "attempted" to manuever and avoid me and keeping her "flag" protected as she thought I was going after. Looking back on it now, I feel and think as if it was more of a predator and prey scenario, the lioness going after the evasive gazelle and their survival. Oh, man. Anyway, as I got closer to her and at full sprint and charging, oh, my GOD, I straight dove for her acting as if I was wanting to get the flag but in reality was aiming for her knees. I wanted to take her out and take her out good and I surely did. I tackled her so hard that she lost her shorts and she flipped in the air. I know. I know. But have to admit it felt good taking her out and satisfied afterwards. Everybody was of course pissed off and I was booted quickly. I think I was in the 8th grade maybe when this happened. I'm trying to get my head on straight here and thinking about my childhood and sequence of events and then plus not writing, since I haven't written in quite a while now, no emails, etc., etc., so may take me a bit. I'm in a spunkie kinda mood because today is the first day of not much physical pain and wanting to play a bit if you will and being able to sit long enough to write. I still enjoy sports and good at them if conditioned enough for it. I don't watch sports though, not into it. But do love the physicality of it. As for playing football now, there would be no way. I have way too many injuries from serious rough housing as a kid and other injuries not related to sports, both knees are jacked up, neck, and back too. I was never much into swimming. I do remember teaching myself how to swim though. Everyone else knew how to swim but me. I had asked a few of the grown ups there to teach me and they declined. So determined and wanting to try, I took it baby step by baby step, took some risks, and taught myself how to swim that day. It felt great and what I had done for myself. I was so proud of myself and my achievement. But unfortunately some other things happened after I announced that I had learned how to swim and that I had taught myself. But nevertheless, a great achievement for me at that time and age -- maybe 9 or 10?? perhaps. Have an interesting story though when I was 16 maybe and being out in the ocean and caught in a nasty rip tide that took me out. Now this was some freaky stuff right here and literally life and death situation and up to me to save my ass, to stay calm and rational (which I panicked at first and thoughts were going crazy all over the place, my fear of sharks, being drug out to sea and no one knowing what was happening to me) Wow but fought and kept telling myself to stay calm and that if I panicked it would only make the situation worse for me; that I need to think it through, figuring out the dynamics of what I was going through at that time, the current, watching others in the water that were a distance away from me and their not being pulled out, etc., and the best path to choose for my survival literally. Ultimately figured it out and how to get out of such a situation without drowning. By the time the lifegaurd saw what was happening, I was already headed in for shore and he had yelled from shore if I needed help as he was ready to go in after me. I told him no, that I didn't need help; that I was fine. I was so tired and weak both physically and emotionally when I got on to shore and what had just happened....just completely drained. Even the lifeguard was floored and asked me, how did you know what to do. I told him, I just figured it out, no need to panic because it would only make the situation worse and to think it through. Anyway, I gotta go. Want to write a bit more with the whole grouping deal and some other things and my experiences but sister is here and going to go hang out at the pool and get a bit of sun!!!!!! I see that Charles has mentioned talking about girls and experiences. I would be most interested in reading any exchanges here in regards to this and giving some of my own input being that I'm a girl and all, ya know. LOL Happy 4th of July, Everyone!!!!!!!

May perhaps be true as well...stage fright and his being nervous but overall seems relaxed. I also picked up labored breathing in watching him without the audio and then listening to him as well which could account for any number of things. Anyway, just an observation and found it interesting. Hopefully he sees his doctor regularly. I saw Ayn Rand on television in 1971 putting it to the environmentalists. For whatever reason, she looked terrible. The worst I had ever seen her before or since. You have to be careful about speculating about health issues from appearances. Lack of sleep alone can make you look wacky. --Brant True and speculation but outward appearances can speak volumes about a person's overall health and any issues they are having. For instance, Hashimoto's disease is very easy for me to pick up and recognize when I see someone without even talking with them. There's always phsyical characteristics as you know when someone is having health issues. Peikoff in what I can see definitely has them. Anyway....perhaps back to the thread and topic...

He has stated he is heart patient. --Brant Bingo, that accounts for the breathing issues and heart disease 99 percent sure BUT there's other medical issues there that he may not be aware of or hasn't announced. His body movements just are interesting to me and a reason I think of Parkinsons Disease, the eye issues and the way he blinks as if it's forced so to speak is another issue. Idk. I don't know Peikoff at all. Even his being lucid, it's hard for me to tell any other issues with mental faculties from the short video I watched (one from so long ago) as I'm not one to stay up on the most current O'ist events and all the head honchos so to speak. Hmmm...perhaps I should listen to the podcast that was put up and giving me a bit more insight if you will. Anyway...ty, Brant, for the tad bit of info!!!

Ninth, I totally understand the time that this interview took place and the ramifications of all that happened and the effect it had on so many. He does seem quite lucid and mentally sharp. I listened to the video. But again, my being the medical junkie, I'm just picking up some issues that are characteristic of Parkinsons and/or another medical issue. May perhaps be true as well...stage fright and his being nervous but overall seems relaxed. I also picked up labored breathing in watching him without the audio and then listening to him as well which could account for any number of things. Anyway, just an observation and found it interesting. Hopefully he sees his doctor regularly.

This is off the subject of this thread. I watched the video of Dr. Peikoff and I have a few quick questions based on my observations of him. For one, he looks like he's in pain, either medically or just emotional pain and being in that state. Does anyone here know if he has Parkinson's Disease? I noticed a few characteristics of possible tell tell signs of it. I haven't listened to what he actually said in that interview. I actually hit the mute button and just wanted to observe him without hearing him. Although I am not familiar with his speech patterns over the years; such as, if his speech has changed over the years, become more rapid, monotone, and other issues related to speech that are associated with Parkinsons. Dementia is also a common characteristic in later stages but he doesn't seem to be in later stages, unless heavily medicated which is also a possibility for some of these symptoms and watching him; ie, eye movements, blinking, a few facial ticks, etc. It's a debilitating disease but given some here are saying in essence "He's not quite all there," I'm just a bit curious if anyone knows of any potential medical problems he may be having. Angie