CNA

Dennis: Well, that's interesting that Rand in the Q & A session says that she didn't consider it "rape." But states at some point that it was "Rape by engraved invitation," or some such deal. Interesting.... Very interesting and an eyebrow raiser. I will be reading the Fountainhead very soon and the reason being is I want to know all the events leading up to this scene and any interactions and more details, behaviors, observations, etc., displayed by both. But I do see where they both are coming from in reading body language and can gauge a person's self-esteem and self-confidence by this which gives insight of their values and where they place themselves by how they speak and carry themselves as this is a huge attractant for myself and many other women I know, not all though, when it comes to men. There is more to it obviously and not so superficial if you will. I know hard to convey it all in just a few paragraphs. I know my impressions at the screening wherein this was touched on a bit is slightly different in what I saw and heard and curious for further clarification and verification. Angie

Yes. Or that of your partner having their own health issue and worst case scenario there is nothing you can do other than scream and hope someone comes to your aid. Or if someone with ill-will walks in, there is not much the restrained person can do and to act in self-preservation or an earthquake, etc. They should be able to get out of the situation on their own freewill, easily or with a bit of work of their own. I don't practice the more "extreme" aspects of it as is done with some people, although there are a few that are used but are more symbolic of the D/s relationship than what the actual end result is designed for if you will. I don't participate in the BDSM community and actively pursue them, although do on ocassion read the forums geared towards it. For me, when I find a person I am interested in, it's introduced into the relationship as I get to know them better, knowing their values, and so forth. But if I can find another O'ist who does share the same values, even better for me and potentially him as well if he's willing and comfortable with it.

This is an area that should be re-worked and where exactly values are being placed rather than solely in the hand's of your partner as he cannot fully judge what is too much for her, although he may know her extremely well and their being in sync. Her/his ultimate supreme value is their own life and you, her, or I should not submit it entirely to the point you cannot act in accordance of self-preservation and are entirely dependent on another. This scenario and putting your life entirely in the hands of another who cannot fully judge psychological freakout points and pushing them beyond their limits, too much S/M...wow and is as irrational as you can get. Any woman that puts herself into that scenario or man as well does not carry their own life as the supreme value. This type of scenario where safewords and communication is nonexistent or is forbidden is a potential death sentence.

Adam: Yes, most definitely in this aspect but the key element is being rational and knowing your values as well as his, self-awareness, and knowing your limits, especially of where exactly you place the supreme value and that being her/your own life and whether or not she will allow complete submission in something such as a B/D scene. Communication and trust in your partner, most definitely in a safe, trusting environment as you know where safewords are used if necessary and what you also are aware of as RACK (Risk awareness consensual kink) for those that aren't familiar. This type of lifestyle no doubt is a thinking man's pleasure and requires a lot more thought than conventional sex. As you know, there are people out there that have absolutely no clue what they are doing, non-thinking, and seriously putting themselves in grave danger. Very true!! Angie

Ted: Most definitely. The attitude of ownership and possession is an aspect that is heavily used in D/s such as master and slave and other aspects of BDSM. This would be a given as this is what Rand I believe is portraying in many of her descriptions of the sexual acts in her books. This one is interesting because is it really considered sex in the way of a woman wanting to be taken forcefully with a man she would consent to anyway and sleep with him because it's something she wants to experience based on her "fantasy." If you have a fantasy, it's something that you want to experience so you will consent to it and in this respect, consent is implied. By definition, rape is non-consensual sex that consists of D/s aspects and S/M aspects as well as in some cases B/D. To me, it seems that what she is ultimately looking for is someone that she is attracted to physically and desires and who is going to take her and dominate her with a degree of force that is acceptable to her, to take control of her and make her submit which is a huge aspect of "rape" and that of BDSM. But to call it a rape fantasy just doesn't make sense as is highlighted in one of Adam's posts. It should be more like she is very much wanting very rough sex and of course the D/s aspects and the S/M aspects of it involved.

You are most welcome and I figured our discussions inspired your post. I'm always very open, honest, I think easy to talk with, and don't mind talking about anything, especially if it furthers understanding not only for myself but others as well as there seems to be a lot of misunderstandings in what I've seen. Obviously, one of the downfalls of not having firsthand knowledge, experience, and understanding and those who attempt to draw conclusions with it. But given it's such a touchy subject if you will and being still so taboo even in today's society and my being a female and talking about it....anyway. It is so true that there is a certain vernacular -- as Zader has indicated -- used for those that practice it. Some terms not so readily familiar even for those that do research into it except to those that are into that lifestyle. To my understanding and a few past dealings here on OL, Selene also has knowledge regarding it which is refreshing. I think the biggest issue is that of honesty with yourself, self-awareness, knowing yourself well enough and your limits and there being no evasion regarding it in such matters. For me, it is who I am and won't deny/evade it and will explore all aspects of myself, knowing myself well and understanding why I do what I do, inclusive of that of my own sexuality. As you know I believe, this is an aspect we all should delve into deeper as to the whats and whys and what makes us individuals and uniquely ourselves. What works for one person won't always work for another for whatever reasons. Angie DELVE DEEP OR DIE TRYING... Do you love ravenous monsters? I am so bad... LMAO....well, now, that's interesting. I have a quick question regarding the Fountainhead in regards to something you said which is: "It’s interesting to note, however, that the ‘rape’ scene in The Fountainhead occurred when Dominique knew absolutely nothing about who Roark was. He was just a muscular, red-headed “hoodlum from the stone quarry.” How is that supposed to represent sex as a “response to values”? Since I have not read the Fountainhead, I'm sure you and/or any others may be able to answer this question or adding further insight into the book for me. You mention how is it supposed to be in response to values in regards to your quote above?? I'll be coming from two different angles on this one, one from Roark's perspective and one coming from Dominique's limited perspective it seems, although she is oblivious it seems at this point what his values are as well as "some" of her own but the act of the so-called rape scene helped her identify and define a part of her own sexuality and what she ultimately preferred with sex and thought was right in the male/female sexual roles and ultimately fulfilling sex in how she's always wanted it but so many men in her experience were lacking in this regard with rough sex in her experience but he delivered it in how she wanted it the most which left its indelible mark in her mind. Would make her that much more curious about him. Given her past experiences with men and sex, this is the one act that she will never forget, how it made her feel, her thoughts, her identification -- made her realize how pleasurable it was for her, how passionate sex was for her in this manner. This act alone is what defined it for her in regards to sex and the male/female roles but Dominique's entire philosophical system has yet been defined by her up to this point but she is working on it. Later on when she realizes who Roark is and what he stood for and that they have the same values, etc., it adds that much more to their relationship obviously and her wanting him that much more....his ultimately becoming her ideal man. As you know, the values and all the ins and outs of it (pardon the pun) can't be handed to a person on a silver platter; they have to come to it on their own...they have to define it on their own and their own journey to attain it and keep it. Although it seems that not all of her values have been defined yet by her, this one aspect has now been defined concretely based on her firsthand knowledge, experience, and understanding and the similarities and the differences between conventional sex and that of BDSM. Coming from Roark's perspective, he already knows her values and what she stands for -- wants her that much more because of it. His identification of his own values have already been achieved obviously and he knows what to look for in his ideal woman. Although he may not know her personally, actions and his observations of her actions speak louder than words. Based on this, his already knowing and also observing her, Roark already knows what she stands for -- she is his ideal. It's now a matter of time for her to identify the remainder and realize it on her own, although I am sure he does help her along at some point. But as you know, it's up to the individual and their own fight and struggle. The values aren't identified and defined overnight if you will. Each value is slowly defined as they go along in their day to day life and their own personal struggle/journey. She will eventually get there but it's going to take some time. Although I have not read the Fountainhead, I am basing this on how I know the system if you will to work and how it happens. So what I said up above may not be entirely correct in how they know each other, etc. I do know though for me and my own personal journey in identifying my values as a kid and teenager and all that happened and this is what I am basing this off of. I do know very clearly the differences between more conventional sex and that of BDSM and the huge differences between the two and ultimately which I prefer the most -- which has brought more passion and a closer bond and connection with that of my partner. Just wanted throw a bit out there and building off the question. There's a few other areas I would like to comment on but can't right now. Been a very busy weekend. I hope everyone is enjoying the long holiday weekend!!! Angie

Hi Angie, Thank you very much. As you may have guessed, our e-mail discussions inspired this post. You have given me a great deal of insight into female sexual psychology, and for that I will be forever grateful. To find such wonderful candor and feminine wisdom in a woman of your enchanting beauty is thrilling, to say the least. Dennis You are most welcome and I figured our discussions inspired your post. I'm always very open, honest, I think easy to talk with, and don't mind talking about anything, especially if it furthers understanding not only for myself but others as well as there seems to be a lot of misunderstandings in what I've seen. Obviously, one of the downfalls of not having firsthand knowledge, experience, and understanding and those who attempt to draw conclusions with it. But given it's such a touchy subject if you will and being still so taboo even in today's society and my being a female and talking about it....anyway. It is so true that there is a certain vernacular -- as Zader has indicated -- used for those that practice it. Some terms not so readily familiar even for those that do research into it except to those that are into that lifestyle. To my understanding and a few past dealings here on OL, Selene also has knowledge regarding it which is refreshing. I think the biggest issue is that of honesty with yourself, self-awareness, knowing yourself well enough and your limits and there being no evasion regarding it in such matters. For me, it is who I am and won't deny/evade it and will explore all aspects of myself, knowing myself well and understanding why I do what I do, inclusive of that of my own sexuality. As you know I believe, this is an aspect we all should delve into deeper as to the whats and whys and what makes us individuals and uniquely ourselves. What works for one person won't always work for another for whatever reasons. Angie

The reference to Paglia is, of course, the renegade feminist Camille Paglia, who states in her essay, “Sex and Violence, or Nature and Art”: I doubt if Ayn Rand would ever have accepted any suggestion that her novels contained erotica. In fact, the most courageous among us would have been unlikely to dare to ask her that question, at least not when she was within striking distance. Recall what she had to say about Mickey Spillane’s The Erection Set: The website washingtoncitypaper.com recently published an article by Amanda Hess which discussed the influence of Rand’s writings on sex on young women: Hess goes on to speculate that Rand’s view of sex may be an important element of what some Rand admirers are looking for at the Atlasphere, the Objectivist dating website: Here’s another relevant excerpt from Feminist Interpretations of Ayn Rand: Well, of course, fans of Rand’s novels understand that she made use of the concepts of dominance and submission as a way to underscore the male and female sex roles. She was simply portraying passionate sex. The founder of Objectivism would never endorse anything as sexually “deviant” as sado-masochism. Right? Wrong. Most critics seem to take a fairly dim view of Rand’s somewhat savage erotica, but there are some exceptions. Here is an excerpt from an article by B. O’Hare at braincrave.com: On a lighter note, I can’t resist the urge to quote my favorite of the The 25 Most Inappropriate Things An Objectivist Can Say During Sex, by Jason Roth: “To say 'F*ck me harder' one must first know how to say the 'me'." The next time you meet someone and discover that they absolutely love the novels of Ayn Rand, you might think twice before assuming that the person knows a damn thing about Objectivism. Great post, Dennis, and most interesting and the ending link...absolutely hilarious. I do like this comment of his though: "Let me conclude with a somewhat provocative question: if, dear reader, you'll excuse my crudeness and brashness, have you ever had sex where you've felt "owned" and/or you "surrendered?" If not, maybe you shouldn't knock it until you've tried it? Granted, it's not for those with a weak mind or a weak heart." Although I haven't read the Fountainhead and only reading the few pages leading up to the scene, during the scene, and then after the scene, in my opinion, it wouldn't be considered rape because of what she expressed to herself as well as her thoughts, her actions, and behaviors before, during it, and after it as described by Rand. Her thoughts and desires were made very clear to herself and she was very honest with it -- there was no evasion. Now, it would be a different story if how she acted and her thoughts were the opposite. If she went to the police and told them honestly what she was thinking during it, etc., how she felt about him, and so forth, there wouldn't be much of a case. But if she went in and denied and lied about what she was thinking and feeling for him, then it would no doubt be different. At any rate, great post and most interesting and great laugh at the end!! Angie

For those that like to bake, this is absolutely delicious and fairly easy to make from scratch. So well worth the effort but definitely is not "healthy" for you as the recipe is presented here. For those on a diet, you can replace the sugar with Splenda or other dietary product that will help cut down on the calories but you will need to take into account cooking times for these different products and their breaking down more easily and changing the end product and taste of the bread. Instead of butter, you can use margarine or Smart Balance. Instead of eggs, you can use Egg Beaters. Also this recipe can easily be substituted such as adding pineapple instead of bananas or pecans instead of walnuts or two cups of white sugar instead of adding the brown sugar. 2 cups all-purpose flour 1 teaspoon salt 2 teaspoons baking soda 2 teaspoons cinnamon 1 teaspoon nutmeg 1 cup butter or margarine 1 cup white sugar 1 cup brown sugar (Golden brown aka light, not dark variety) 2 cups mashed overripe bananas 4 eggs beaten 1.5 teaspoons vanilla extract 1 cup chopped walnuts Preheat oven to 350 degrees. Grease two 9 by 5 inch loaf pans Sift the flour, salt, baking soda, cinammon, and nutmeg into a large bowl; thoroughly mix together. In separate bowl, mash bananas. In separate bowl, beat eggs and vanilla extract together. In separate bowl, mix/cream together the butter or margarine and sugars until smooth. In large bowl of flour, salt, baking soda, cinnamon and nutmeg, add half of mashed bananas and beaten egg mixture; mix together or fold in until blended. Add remaining mashed bananas and beaten egg mixture into bowl and blend. Then add half of sugar and butter or margarine mixture and mix/fold in until blended. Add other half of sugar and butter or margarine mixture and mix/fold in until blended. Add chopped walnuts and mix/fold mixture in until well incorporated. Divide batter evenly between the two loaf pans. Bake for 60 to 70 minutes, until a knife inserted into the crown of the loaf comes out clean. Remove and let the loaves cool in the pans for about 5 minutes. Then turn out onto a cooling rack and cool completely. Serve or wrap in aluminum foil to keep in the moisture and refrigerate for two hours and then serve. You can also freeze portions of it for a treat days later if not devoured the first day as happened in my home. LOL My oven tends to run on the hotter side which is a pain in the butt but always ways around it. If your oven runs on the hotter side as well, check the loaves 40 minutes in to make sure the sides are not burning or browning too quickly as compared to rest of loaf. If the sides are browning too quick or potentially burning, turn down oven to 325 and check again in 5 minutes. Insert knife at crown to check if done. If still gooey and not clean and/or sides are still browning too quickly, turn oven down further to around 300 and cook for another 5 to 10 minutes and check again with knife. Repeat as necessary until knife withdraws cleanly or okay if a tiny bit gooey as it should cook further during cool down. I like mine more so on the moist side but whatever you prefer. By doing this, you should be able to ward off overcooking or any burning. Hope you and/or those you cook it for truly enjoy!!!! Angie

Hi Dennis, Last night, at the viewing, was absolutely fabulous and ecstatic that I went as well. It was very intimate and a small group of people that attended and definitely up my alley and what I was ultimately wanting rather than a huge event. I have to thank Michael for asking me to go as well as yourself. I'm most appreciative. I'm definitely interested to see the first two volumes now. From the minute I arrived until the moment I walked out of the room to head home, I was riveted. It was a bit strange though in that I was seated between two OL members, yourself and Michael Newberry. I very much enjoyed being able to meet and listen to several long time Objectivists such as Al Ramrus. I wish Barbara would have been able to attend as I would have greatly enjoyed meeting her. What spoke volumes when Duncan Scott asked Al Ramrus what he would say to Ayn today and that he would respond with "Thank you," was the emotional response that was conveyed by Al truly spoke volumes of his admiration and indebtedness to Ayn and what she had done for him as well as many others. During the viewing, I found Al's and Barbara's interview to be the most enlightening and their offering tremendous insight. There was another gentleman there which unfortuntately I do not remember his name (I'm great with remembering faces, just not names unfortunately) that was also very enlightening although he was not in the Volume 3 DVD but that being their exchanges that went on after the documentary ended amongst Duncan Scott, Al Ramrus, and this other gentleman; most notably that tickled me pink was the "Fashion Show" wherein everyone participating was Objectivists in that day. I still smile at this and can't help but giggle -- very cute and sweet and I can imagine the feather boas and such that were worn during the show. With this other gentleman being in the upcoming 4th volume and his seemingly extensive involvement with NBI and the memorabilia that he still has, I am very much interested to see his interview as well. I am very much appreciative of what Duncan Scott is doing and the preservation of history of the accounts of those who were around Ayn then. Duncan Scott is doing a phenomenal job with it and is well put together. Angie

Dennis, Yes, so true and that these are two major areas a teenager battles and she is definitely battling it. What amazes me is that she is bringing many different pieces into it. It's a joy to witness. She's a remarkable little cookie and I will no doubt continue to encourage her !!! She'll be on a bit later to respond and to say thank you !! Tony, Also thank you and I agree. She's very courageous and one hell of a fighter; that fire is burning and will continue to burn. Knowing how I know her to be, she won't allow it to burn out. I greatly admire her strength and optimism. We get along very well and she's always tons of fun to be around. I'm here for her and she knows this. Shane, Yes, she is very very bright. Two of her passions are writing and drawing. She'll make her mistakes on her journey but she is the type that learns from it; she'll have to fight for it no doubt. Her feet so far are planted in the right direction and I know she'll keep marching forward with her vision in mind. Reidy, Exactly. Most definitely will NOT be laying Rand on her, not now or anytime soon. When the time is right I will suggest for her to read Rand but then again may not depending on what happens as there may not be a need for her to read Rand after all, especially if she's drawing the conclusions that she's now drawing on her own. I don't want the answers to be given to her. She's going to have to work for it. I can help her on her path and talking with her and intend to do this when she comes to me for help or needs to talk. I want her to understand it based on her own firsthand knowledge, experience and understanding; what she's going through in her own life. I want her to apply her own mind and trying to figure it out and focussing in on it as well as knowing herself well and why she does what she does. She's doing a great job of it so far without much help which gives me much insight that she'll be able to do it on her own without reading Rand !!!! She's an amazingly smart little lady!!!

Angie, Is this the 50 foot golfer? From this angle, I can understand Megan's reaction... Yes, it looks to be the same 50 foot golfer, although I have never seen it from that angle. LMAO

My niece Kala who is 14 years old wrote this tonight very quickly. She doesn't know about Objectivism nor has she read Rand. I wanted to share what she wrote. It needs a bit of work and smoothing it out on her part but I'm posting it as it was written the first time. She had asked me to read it so I did and it brought tears to my eyes. I absolutely adore my niece. She reminds me a lot of me at this age and she is grappling with some major ideas and her observations. Unfortunately, she has also been through a lot and has seen a lot. She's very responsible and a strong-willed little cookie. Once I read it, I asked her if she was aware of how profound her observations were for being so young and she said no. We talked a bit about it. I asked her if I could post it to a philosophy site that I belong to and she said yes. After talking a bit about what she had written and that I would like to post it, I told her I wanted her to watch any responses from those here on OL. So much complexity is packed into one little piece and it's all coming from her -- an independent mind at the age of 14. She's observing the pain she's in and identifying the source of that pain, the what and why and integrating it. She's fighting for individuality. She knows that decisions need to be made. She's observing grouping. She's observing that "they're" beating down the good which is herself. She's observing the need of having a good man in her life who has the same values, virtues, etc. She knows that pain is to be fought. She's observing life and death. She knows that life can be better; there's a vision there of what life could be like for her where there is no more pain. And all of this expressed very quickly. My god, I absolutely love my niece. Even more astounding that she doesn't know about the philosophy and hasn't read Rand but these are her conclusions and observations --another great mind. There's truly so many others out there who have come or are coming to the same conclusions without ever knowing about Rand -- gives even more weight to their conclusions as well as Rand's conclusions. She sits on the swing by herself listening to music thinking as to why she's so depressed, trying to decide life or death wondering if she's the only one then she hears we are the ones we get knocked down we get back up and stand above the crowd. we are the ones Then she sees a young boy, sitting on the swing next to her. He says we are the ones we stand above the crowd He grabs her hand and their feet lift off the ground. They float above the crowd She closes her eyes and relaxes her body wishing the pain would go away. As her body floats freely, a tear flows down her cheek. She hears we are the ones we get knocked down we get back up and stand above the crowd. She slowly smiles and opens her eyes she's lying in the grass and whispers We stand above the crowd She gets up and walks into the light never seeing darkness again.

Angie, LOL! That is a great visual. I actually think that this might be a better way to use their brains than what most people call thinking—a more direct form of osmosis. Same consequences, but the outcome is more immediate. Reminds me of the dialogue from Wizard of Oz; Scarecrow: I haven't got a brain... only straw. Dorothy: How can you talk if you haven't got a brain? Scarecrow: I don't know... But some people without brains do an awful lot of talking... don't they? Dorothy: Yes, I guess you're right. And the famous put-down: “If you had a brain, you’d play with it!” (Another great visual!!) Or: “If you had a brain, you’d be dangerous.” (A dual put-down) Any more one-liners from your dad? Are you going to tell us who he was referring to? I can think of any number of prominent statesmen of our day to whom it might apply. Dennis Hi Dennis, The person he was speaking of was a stranger but ultimately after observing people over an extended period of time and a common denominator, that's ultimately how he reacted to it and his perception/interpretation of it. My dad has many one-liners but this is his most recent one. There is another person in my extended family that is notorious for one liners or odd ball ditzy comments but it's not always in her observations of others but observations of herself and why such as when she said, "Oh, my god, this headache just won't go away; I must be breathing too much air." OMG, wow, okay, Megan, sure, hon!! Yikes. Or her odd ball observation of the 50 foot or however tall miniature golf-n-stuff statue guy on the side of the 405 freeway was: "Oh, my god, look, they put shorts on him today." Oh, my GAWD, what the hell. Wow....*phew* Never short of funny shit sometimes in my family that's for sure. LOL

Hi Mike, OMG, that visual is brutal..wow. The details, the details, the horror, the horror -- I may be traumatized now. LOL j/k But wow to that dream, and yes, rich in symbolism like you wouldn't believe and very telling how he possibly perceived himself to be. I've been doing some thinking lately about writing and not just small stuff for posting, etc., but more extensive. Playing around with the idea. Hmmmm....your friend's father and my dad may very well have met at some point or another. It sounds like both may have gotten around. My dad and sister are the same, very colorful people. Angie

Angie, Do you have any idea what a pleasure it is to encounter a woman of your insight, intelligence and independence? If I was a superficial man (I'm not, but I do have my moments ), I would also mention that you are radiantly beautiful. I’m a little amazed that I was able to string so many coherent sentences together while being so stunned by your loveliness. The innocent warmth of your greeting set the stage for the hours of mutual sharing that followed. Your honesty and openness was obvious from the start. You spoke of your life with perceptive, thoughtful introspection reflecting a unique self-awareness. It is clear that the wonderful person you are today is the result of a series of well-examined decisions in the face of challenges that would have confounded most people. And you had the strength to follow through on those decisions and assert your needs and fight for the life you knew to be possible. The joyous sense of life I saw reflected in your eyes has been earned the hard way, which just makes you that much more rare and remarkable. You are a total delight, to be sure. But you are so much more than that. You are a living testimony to the rewards of rationality and personal responsibility. It is a pleasure and an honor to know you. Dennis I sincerely apologize, Dennis, for taking so long to respond. I've had a lot going on lately. I do know that I am a bit at a loss for words right now which is not easy for someone to accomplish. Always have something to say about something or other. LOL Thank you very much for the compliment and I'm ecstatic that I was able to have such an effect on you. It was wonderful being able to bounce ideas back and forth. I've met some truly great people here at OL and you are definitely one of them! Again, thank you. Angie

My dad had an observation that made me bust up and just his interpretation and perception was classic and we all couldn't stop laughing....the visual that I got in my head when he ran it past me....WOW!!! He said, "There's some people that are so stupid that if they could they would take their brain out and throw it on the ground to see what it would pick up." I'm not sure if he picked up partially this from somewhere else and added onto it or if it was just straight his interpretation after observing someone do something utterly stupid. But it's a definite fave of mine and have been chuckling at it all day. Running the visual in my head of someone walking down the street with a blank comical look on their face, taking their brain out and throwing it on the ground, hearing a splat, their looking at it in amazement obviously brainless and then picking it back up to see if it picked anything up and newfound knowledge -- can't be quality that's for sure. LOL Ah, comic strips perhaps for the O'ists out there. I wanted to share a bit of the dark morbid sense of humor that runs in certain family members of mine.

Dennis, I had to post this here and say thank you for the wonderful conversation yesterday. There was no lull in the convo at all and flowed so easily from the minute we approached each other with huge smiles and introducing ourselves. I finally got to have a real life O'ist in front of me and it was intriguing and fascinating the entire 4 hours we spent together talking at Starbucks. Fabulous!! You are much appreciated, admired, and commended for all of your wonderful achievements and I acknowledge every one of them!!! You're a wonderful conversationalist in all the different aspects that we spoke and you're easy to talk with. You are truly a happy man in what I observed, very expressive, no strain there at all, and a joy to witness!! I have to make my way down to meet Michael soon and will. I probably should have approached the O'ists behind me and my son at the Rush concert Friday night but no biggie. I'm sure if they're in the neighborhood and any groups nearby I may see them again. But it's sooo nice to find O'ists close to me almost in my own backyard and reaching out and I'm overtaken with joy and feel like a kid in a candyshop with all the new discoveries to be had to delight the senses!! Thank you!!!! Angie

LOL, I've hijacked my own thread. Although I said I was done, I wanted to throw another of my two cents out there and then I'm done. Thinking a bit about this more while working is what is even more pitiful is that in my observations of these "followers" on these various sites is that they think they are holding up the good and what is right when in reality they are upholding what is bad and what is wrong, beating down and attempting to extinguish those that are of the good -- independent minds -- individuals seeking the truth, what is truly right and what is truly good for them, even if these independent thinkers sometimes make mistakes or have errors in their own knowledge. A good example was of that guy who had the relationship question and his attempting to apply it to his own life and understanding of it, making the right decisions on his own but seeking guidance and then the "followers" who then bashed him over the head for his attempt to use his own mind. Amazing, it's another contradiction that I am sure they're not even aware of and that they are doing more harm than they are doing good. I would much rather surround myself with independent minds -- courageous men and women -- who are fighting for what is right and what is the good. To be a follower and to adopt it equates to shutting down the mind. Damn, makes me think even more about seriously starting up my own O'ist forum dedicated to O'ism but real life application into our lives, our experiences, firsthand knowledge, and own understanding and anonymity would be a must so as not to be able to identify who the person is that is putting their personal life out there from past experiences or present experiences and putting it to the test -- their sharing their lives with others, seeking guidance from others who have been there. No worries for them because of anonymity and if you ever run into them at a seminar or what have you there's no identifying information that the person you were interacting with 2 days prior is now standing before you. Anyway, now I'm done and need to get back to work. Working late as usual. This actually probably now belongs in the rants section. LMAO

Robert, Here's a few more vids for you!! Super Hero is funny too about the X ray vision and girl's tits. Oh, man. LOL Peanut and Jose Jalapeno http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47DT41m86N4 Melvin the Super Hero http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxuv-En5EU4&feature=related

Hi Mike, Wow, replies to the thread and I had no clue. I'm not receiving notices anymore on threads and/or posts. I turned it off in my control panel for a few personal reasons. Anyway, yeah, I know Ted didn't get banned as he stated but thank you for the brief explanation. It just wouldn't have surprised me if he did or that a person may have that hanging over their head if they possibly step out of line as I've seen some pretty outrageous things happen on other forums and my thinking, Wow to that one. I was reading a recent thread on one those sites about a relationship question and this poor guy was trying to sift through all of it and taking it in, analyzing it objectively as he could but not easy when some delicate emotions are involved and pain is involved and being torn, and man, some of the so-called O'ists just ripped into him and calling him an emotionalist, etc. Only a few came out and supported him and said they didn't have all the details of the relationship and what was happening, etc., etc. It was just pitiful and shameful in what I saw happening. My tolerance for "followers" has greatly diminished over the years and continues and my patience level is no longer there. Unfortunately the number of followers on these various forums that I am witnessing is growing exponentially in what I have seen over the years. I understand the guidance deal, but man, oh, man, "adopting" it because they've read it in a book and attempted application into their own lives and not being able to live up to it is a serious killer. I'm not going to get into all the other little areas of this. Anyway, enough of that before my irritation and impatience and tolerance level for these types of people begins to shine through and then my own brutal denunciations will start. Anyway, it's all good. Will be hooking up with a few down here in my area for some in-the-flesh convo and getting to know others who admire Rand and seem to be independent thinkers!!! Very excited about it. Dayamm...I think I may post some more vids while I'm at it tonight for Anonrobt and we both may have some good laughs. ;) Forgive me, Anonrobt, I don't remember your name. Is it perhaps Robert or maybe Tony? Big Oi Angie Post - I also should probably say this in regards to followers to make sure there is no misunderstandings in what I am trying to convey: It can't be handed to a person on a silver platter; such as, if they read it in a book. The person has to come to the conclusions on their own based on their own reasoning and judgment, experiences from past or present; firsthand knowledge. Wasn't it Rand herself who also championed the independent thinker; their own firsthand knowledge, experience, and understanding? I would have to say so and it is something I greatly value as well. What I've seen on so many forums, this flies in the face of so many out there. Blind leading the blind but at any rate. The independent thinker is the one who is in search of the truth, the one who is attempting to see and then can see. Even if a person is trying to come to the conclusions on their own and makes mistakes or errors in their own knowledge doesn't make them an evil person. Far from it. It's up to the individual to fix it and continue to seek the truth, to work for what it is they are attempting to identify as the good and the right for themselves. We all have different convictions as is obvious but there's no sense in constantly worrying about what other people think and/or are doing....You live for yourself. hmmm...isn't this also called social metaphysics? Ah, another contradiction to point out to the followers and they aren't even aware of it I am sure. Anyway, enough of this and I'm done.

Thank you, Steve, very much!! I saw this not too long ago and thinking about attending. It would be intriguing I'm sure. It would be good to see you again. It's been how many years now? Three or four? I see your pic as well. ;) Hey, waidda second!! I remember that pix!! LOL I haven't changed much other than much shorter hair, lost about 10 pounds or so, sportin' about 130, maybe 135 now which everyone says is too skinny for my height, blah, blah, blah...LOL...and oh, yeah, can't forget the damn grey hair that's coming in ta boot. LMAO I would much prefer the gabfest at that bar as compared to the last bar I was in where there was a bachelorette party for a friend of the family's and then more at another place and Wow is all I can say. LOL I'm not sure if I will be able to make it to this upcoming meeting. This next month is kinda hectic for me but I'll see what happens.

You can contact quite a few LA Objectivists by joining LAON, an on-line Yahoo discussion group which also meets periodically. (Barbara Branden spoke to the group in April. I reported on her talk in Barbara's "corner" here on OL.) Just send an e-mail to laobjectivists@yahoogroups.com and ask for information about joining. I'm not sure when their next meeting will be. We would be delighted to have you as a member. Dennis, Thank you very much for the info. It's greatly appreciated. I'll be sending them an email. Although LA is a distance from me, I am willing to drive. Although I am hesitant for a few reasons to give my exact location (city) on a public forum, I made the request as overbroadly as I could and to encompass all of So Cal. If there were any responses, it may perhaps vary widely in venues. Ideally for me, it would be South LA County such as LB, all of OC, some parts of North San Diego County, perhaps some parts of San Bernardino County. Of those I have been in contact with in these areas, it seems there's not much in the way of groups that meet regularly and "active" if you will. So it looks to be LA for me and may even see you at one of the meetings!!!! But you may not recognize me because I've cut my hair recently and it's quite a bit shorter. Michael, Thanks for the contact info and will make a visit perhaps sometime soon and may even see you at one of the meetings too. Angie

I've finally decided to put this up here on OL. I've been in touch with a number of people from various other forums for groups out in So Cal. I know there are a few here that are in the So Cal area; such as, Greybird whom I've met in the past already and Newberry, and they may have some info about various groups close to where they live. But if anyone else has info on any groups in So Cal, I'm most interested -- just to hook up and hangout for a bit, etc. Doesn't matter if male or female. As some, if not most here, are aware, I'm much more interested in independent thinkers who admire Rand and share the same values rather than hardcore orthodoxy type stuff; ie, real life O'ism and application in our lives. I don't want to give my email, exact location, etc., on a public forum. But if anyone has info, please send me an email through my profile or private message me or just respond here. It would be greatly appreciated. I don't expect many responses as it seems thus far in the research that I've done that So Cal doesn't seem to have many "active" groups right now but doesn't hurt to try. Angie

OMG, are you serious? Banning for something like this -- outside the ortho box?!? Well, holy F*CK, god forbid if you're an independent mind, attempting to come to conclusions on your own and judging for yourself what is right and what is wrong rather than adopting the ideas and assuming, dayamm, if Ayn said it (no disrespect), it must be right. My ass "may" have been kicked to the curb years ago, especially if I had done something that didn't fall exactly in line such as putting up the vids of Dunham. LMAO What a way to live or more like not live and forced subservience to shut down the mind. Down, Boy, down, you're using your mind so we have to ban your ass; accept the ideas as they are without question and your own judgment on your part or we'll KEEELLLL YOU. I haven't seen you around much but I am sure you probably won't get kicked to the curb here so enjoy!!!! Although there are a number here who despise Rand and/or not O'ists, there "seems" to be more independent minds on this site as compared to the others that I have browsed over the years. Angie