moralist

No truer words have ever been written by you, Bob. You know absolutely nothing about evil which would make you an excellent kapo. Greg

Data is the god of bureaucrats... ...there is no greater god. Greg

I was at Fort Ord, and then went to Fort Rucker where I got training as a 67U20. A friend who went through basic just before me told me to do my very best on the tests in the first few days, because they determined what job I'd get for the rest of my time in the service. I scored in the top one percentile so I got to be a helocopter mechanic working on CH47 Chinooks. One of the most dangerous things to happen to me when I was a short timer with only three days left in-country. I was pulling guard duty on the flightline when we got rocketed. Ii was so ironic to almost be out and yet crawling like a lizard for the nearest reventment! My wife has a genetic tendency to high blood pressure. She had a stroke and was put on two blood pressure medications. But she didn't like the way they made her feel weak and sluggish, so she quit them and fasted to give her body time to eliminate the drugs and reset itself. Now her blood pressure is normal with no medications at all. Well... I could never run a marathon! I do bicycle instead because I've seen way too many runners wearing out the cartilage in their knees and having to get their joints replaced. The yard: Thanks! That's just one little section of it. We have two dozen fruit and nut trees, and a dozen grape vines. Everything is irrigated with reclaimed water we extract and process from our household sewage, as a literal expression of the ideal of self reliance in Galt's Gulch. This is our raw sewage straight from the toilets sinks showers and laundry. Aeration is magic. It doesn't even smell and I just keep open wire safety grids on the risers so no one falls in. Greg

Just because the environment around me is a certain way doesn't mean I have to be the same way. I'm a 69 year old 5'5" 135 pound vegetarian who has never had a prescription drug in his life. However, I do watch my weight because metabolism slows down as you get older. Anyways, I create my own environment instead of becoming like the world around me... (trees in foreground left to right: Peach, Cherry, Orange, Orange, Almond) Greg

I meditated... no alcohol, no pot, no coke. That's how I returned to civilian life intact. Any problem a Vet ever had over there... could only be the very same problem they'd have right here. "No matter where you go... there you are." Greg

I was in Vietnam... The Southern boys drank. The Californians smoked pot. The blacks did coke. Each had their own way of coping with the stress... ...however poorly. Many of the problems Vets experience as civilians are from bringing their own addictions back home with them. Greg

While I do have lots of fun playing chess, it's just an amoral game. However, it does contain a metaphorical reference to life in that it has fixed objective rules which make playing the game possible. So does life, for it has fixed moral laws which make living a good life possible... and not just existing by cheating others. People can freely choose to subjectively uphold or to violate objective moral laws... but they can never change those laws. This is because objective moral law is of a higher order than human. Morality has to be objective... or it's not morality. Greg

Thanks for clarifying your view, Jerry. Greg

Bob, only you would include yourself among the apes because that's all you could ever be... a government trained monkey. Greg

Yes, It is contradictory because it is impossible to resolve from within thought. Like trying to lift a bucket off of the floor while standing in it. Pull the handle all you want... and you will never move. Now, from outside thought and emotion quietly and calmly observing them as if you are someone else, you can move the bucket as you see fit. There's no need to seek external approval, for anyone can become aware of this just from sitting still. And although it's both fleeting and elusive, once you taste it you always know what it is, and you can grow to love it. From then on you can use the experience as a reliable accurate yardstick with which to measure all others. Here is a simple direct question to ask yourself, Brant. Are you the master of thought and emotion?... ...or are you their slave? Choose. Greg

It is my experience that we already know what's morally right "for each invidividual" before we even think or emote about it... and that our thoughts and the emotions they spin into being are a reaction to that apriori objective knowing... either to subjectively agree or to disagree with it. Leftists love to think of "the world" because it makes them feel right while actually being wrong from screwing over individuals. Greg

Neither do I, Jerry. And it is impossible to determine whether or not a thought is reasonable while you are immersed in it emoting to it. The only way to properly judge whether or not a thought is reasonable is from the viewpoint outside of it looking in as if you are someone else. Otherwise there is no possibility ot the rational choice of acting contrary (or not acting at all) on an unreasonable thought, as long as you are emotionally immersed in it as if it was the totality of your being. For if thought and emotion are all just you and there is nothing else, how could you possibly be able to choose to act against yourself? Greg

No problem, Peter. The first sentence was only for me. It's superflous for everyone else because the end result of acting in harmony with objective moral reality is exactly the same regardless of where it came from. Greg

Same here Tony. I don't even bother to look at all that crap he trowels like plaster. "Studies either confirm what you already know by your own common sense... ...or they're wrong." --Dennis Prager But William can't help it. He's was educated by his government to be a bureaucrat. Greg

That's true. Killing a man is the ultimate in robbery. But begs the question of whether the act of killing a man is doing good or doing evil? Is it a just or an unjust act? for that is the sole criterion by which to judge every act. Is the world a better place for it? Are innocents protected by it? Are you a better person for doing it. Is it heroism of goodness... or the angry blame (unjust accusation) which precedes every evil act? The yardstick with which to measure even its contemplation had better be the objective moral reality of Conscience. Greg

So do you agree or disagree with Peikoff? And to draw a distinction... Conscience is moral intuition. There may be intuition about chess games and other non moral situations... but that's not what I'm talking about. Greg

I noticed how you substituted "reason" for "thought", Jerry. Why did you do that when I never said it? If you want to refute something with which you don't agree, what good is it to make something up that isn't real just to say it isn't real? Heck, I'd agree that your description is mysticism! Is every thought and emotion that you experience reason-able? Do you act on every thought and emotion? Why not? It's all just you isn't it? By the way, I'm enjoying our conversation, as this topic is of great interest to me personally because my life is an ongoing experiment concerning objective moral reality and the consequences of agreeing with it. Greg

For you everything is on an unconscious level, Bob. Greg

That's why I asked Jerry what his point was. He's sitting on both sides of the fence. Greg

You had also said that there is "no such animal" as Conscience. So what was your point?. Greg

Yes. Jerry calls it mystical and that's his honest view. Becoming aware of Conscience requires developing self awareness... the ability to observe thought and emotion as if you were another person who is not involved with them. This is the only way to see yourself as you truly are. And already built into that insight is an objective moral frame of reference... Conscience. It is impossible to alter the objective moral reality of Conscience. You only have the free choice to either subjectively agree or to disagree with it. ...and just to be clear... It doesn't matter whether a person acknowledges or denies the existence of the objective moral reality of Conscience. It only matters whether or not they subjectively agree with it in their behavior. For the end result of agreeing with objective moral reality by our actions to become a better person and to make a better world is exactly the same. Greg

Very funny, Jerry! Those are all false absurd cartoonish charicatures. I've only said that there is an objective moral reality and every morally accountable adult already knows what it is... ...and those who ignore what they already know will find out what it is anyway through the objective reality of the just and deserved consequences of their actions. Greg

(shrug...) Since you already denied you have a Conscience you can call it whatever you want. It has nothing to do with me or how I live. Greg

Yes it is, Brant. Personal experience is purely anecdotal and non transferrable. It's completely powerless to convince anyone of anything. However, I can suggest something. Next time you face a moral situation, if you watch your thoughts and emotions closely enough, you will have the opportunity to see for yourself that they are reactions to something else which occurred before they appeared in your mind. Greg

While what you describe can be true, Brant... ...nevertheless there is instantaneous moral information which is made available to us in the present moment which is independent of previous experience. Greg