Cathy

I would like to thank Brant with my whole heart for the most wonderful and thoughtful gift! The print of my uncle's painting came today! Ironically, the painting is called the "Diminishing returns"! Brant, I will never forget you, thank you so much! I love it! I'm having it framed tomorrow. As you all know, I believe in God. I have prayed all my life for God to lead me in the right direction...and he lead me here. I know now, I needed answers to the questions I didn't know I had. All of you have helped me with that, and I want to say thank you. I loved My Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank, and they probably have broken every commandment written, but God is a forgiving God out of love, and I forgive them to, out of love. As in the beginning is now in the end, nothing matters in between...I am an O'Connor, and Brant made me realize I am proud of it. Brant, I will treasure this painting until my last breath! ~Cathy~

I tried telling you that ~Cathy~

Unlikely to get a reply. I've no sense Barbara's been Internet active in the last year or two. --Brant Ill keep that in mind, thank you Brant. It hasn't came yet...waiting as patiently as possible. ~Cathy~ When a woman tells me that, I get anxious. --Brant "Monday, Monday . . ." Read this first thing this morning...thanks for starting my day off right lol! ~Cathy~

Unlikely to get a reply. I've no sense Barbara's been Internet active in the last year or two. --Brant Ill keep that in mind, thank you Brant. It hasn't came yet...waiting as patiently as possible. ~Cathy~

Thank you so much Ginny, yes I would like to talk to her... and apologize to her. I hope she can. Thx ~Cathy~

How beautiful and so sad. ~Cathy~

Ellen Ellen, Aunt Agnes told me that her mother suffered for weeks before she died...she also was the glue that held the family together. She said her father was so lost after her death...that's why the kids basically took care of themselves, they feed themselves got themselves ready for school. The older ones help with the younger ones...I guess Dennis was a mess. When the state stepped in and took the kids, Dennis married a lady which he hardly knew...her name was Mary (like my grandma's name) and her last name was O'Connor also lol. Her prior husband was James. But that how my grandfather got his children back. She came with four children...that's when everything went crazy at my grandfathers house. Uncle Joe and uncle Nick ran off, then when Uncle Frank was old enough he ran off to. It left Aunt Agnes, Aunt Margret, My dad and Aunt Bess with the wicked step mother. Aunt Agnes's 2nd husband was John. They were not married many years and I am almost positive he died not long after the marriage. She only had two husbands. all her children where by Papurt. I don't know if the 2nd husband had children. I never met him that I can remember. I believe she told me she was like her dad (my grandfather) she got married right away. MiMi was already grown, and Dockey may have been on her way out, but she had two other children to take care of, and back then that's the way women did it...they married. sad... ~Cathy~ p.s. My real grandmother Mary was call Minnie.

-Neil Parille This made me cry ~Cathy~

He had throat cancer. Right after he was diagnosed, he started treatment right away. I could tell it scared him to death. Of course my step mother punished us and said we gave him cancer and we are the ones who were killing him. It was my sister who remembered that. Long ordeal for us back then. But it wasn't the cancer that killed him, he caught phamonia (sp?). Aunt Agnes did travel out of state. MiMi was her daughter and would take trips to see Uncle Frank. Aunt Bess lived in Dearborn Michigan and Aunt Agnes would go visit them as often as us. I believed she traveled by train or flew places. When she was with us she didn't have a car, because we would walk uptown with her. her last husband had died, his name was Johnston, and left her pretty well to do because she lived in Shaker Heights which is pretty upscale part of Cleveland. I am reading some of Ayn Rand things, and have been trying to find my way around this site. Trying to find out anything I can about them later in their lives. I am also looking for my step mother's son...but he would probably be 75 by now...I better find him fast! ~Cathy~ p.s. my sister is coming around...she said tonight she will finish reading these posts. You wouldn't believe the things she is remembering...I tried telling her it will all come back in floods. She remembered that I tied a sheet to my bed to climb down from my upstairs window so we could run away. The sheet dangled down to the kitchen window below my window where my dad and step mother were at the table eating (this was through the time of starvation) I was halfway down that sheet when I heard my dad and step mother racing up the steps. I shimmied back up that sheet, threw it under my bed and jumped in bed and threw the covers over me. My dad pulled them covers back and said...are you trying to kill yourself! Last night me and Conny Laughed about that, But like I told her, its funny now, but back then we weren't laughing. Conny said we were eleven when that happened.

Just courious...do you believe me yet Jerry? ~Cathy~

Nonetheless, she did fly to Portland, Oregon, from Chicago, from Portland to stops on the same trip - the fall, 1963, trip - then back East, though we don't know whether just as far as Chicago and other transportation from there or all the way to NYC, nor if she and the Brandens flew to Chicago going. And what's your point, since all this has been covered? Ellen Edit: Jerry added a line to his post while I was posting. Answer, yes, it has been. Additional edit: I wouldn't say that trains were Rand's favorite form of transportation to use. Mostly, on trips where the means of transportation was mentioned, it was by car, with Frank driving. (Barbara said it was a harrowing experience to have Frank at the wheel.) After Frank was too spacey to drive - about the last decade of his life - they went to the Ford Hall Forum by bus. A friend of mine in those years was once sitting "all ears" in the seat behind Rand and Peikoff, who were seated together, on the way to Boston. Larry and I sometimes crack up laughing at imagining the scene. The friend is tall, in those days had a thick mane of curly dark hair. His eyebrows - which are still dark and thick - go up and down when he's excited. We imagine him just barely able to restrain himself from leaning forward over the seat back, the better to hear what was being said. Ellen, I believe it was in 67, they all three were there. My dad was going to St. Louis for his first cancer treatment and Aunt Agnes had to stay to watch us while they were gone. They might have all three stayed overnight but I just remember Aunt Agnes. There's another long story behind this, but Ill go into that some other time. ~Cathy~

Ellen, do they keep plane logs from back then? All the O'Connor brother's and sister's were close. Even Aunt Bess who didn't travel would call and my dad would call her. Aunt Agnes would visited everyone and we heard about everything that was going on in everyone's life...the exception was Margaret. My aunt would tell me stories on how they grew up, they had to stick together...just like me and Conny. ~Cathy~

Ellen, the only thing that I remember happening was my dad was diagnosed with cancer and that would have been in 67/68. I cant remember any funerals. I am going to try and find my step mother's son, and hopefully more memories will come back. Since you have brought up her children, I do remember him trying to help us, he argued with his mother on how she was treating us, and they didn't speak for a while. Its funny looking back, because My step-mother's children never left their children with her. Why was it ok for everyone that we were? When my step mother died, I did go to her funeral. Her children said, I am surprised you came after how she treated you. I told them I came to make sure she was dead, buried and never coming back...my sister did not attended. ~Cathy~ p.s. I wanted to tell them, she was lucky I didn't put her there, I thought about many, many times.

Ellen , thanks for the intro ! I did buy Barbaras archives , and since then I have expanded the archives in a huge way . I am working very hard on this project but for the last few years I have been focusing on simply buying , and collecting research on Rand and the history of Objectivism . I do have some upcoming news but I am not able to expand on the details right now . As for Cathy ........ I welcome you to the board , I have been reading this thread with great interest and I hope that you can get any and all of the answers that you need here and everywhere . I will do everything that I can to provide you with what you would like to see or hear .Cathy , I do have a tremendous amount of research which includes around 500 cassettes or so of interviews of Rand and people who knew Rand . I do have the Mimi Sutton tapes too . Sad to report , I have not yet converted the tapes but I am getting everything in a great archived system and I will report more here very soon . Marc Thank you Marc

LOL!

That's a great suggestion. Done. Michael Thank you dear bro. Maybe if you have time you could correct my topic typo to Fox North. I could pretend it really means "No Ezra! Republican Toady!" but I am too well known as a touch typist to get away with it. Carol 83 words a minute My Father could do +85. My step-Mother +100 Nayah, nayah! --Brant 15, maybe Brant, stop straining your eyes and forefingers, touchtyping is incredibly easy to learn, just a manual and a keyboard. It is also a soothing repetitive activity that puts you in a nice calm zone. I learned at age 12 from an old book of my mother's and I practiced at school on my desk during Latin class, no keyboard of course just the fingerwork. I played basketball with no basketball. I practiced nudity with my clothes on. Flying without an airplane. --Brant you can't top me! for some reason...I bet that's true!

Carol, That's a great suggestion. Done. Thank you Michael ~Cathy~ Michael

Uh-uh, not a very young child. She would have been 15 or 16 in December 1934, depending on when in the year her birthday was. Barbara and Marna, as cited by Heller, agree in saying that Mimi was 20 when she was staying with Ayn and Frank in the summer of 1939. Depending on whether she'd already had her birthday by summer of that year or whether she turned 21 later that year, she was born in 1918 or 1919. She was old enough to be my mother. (My mother was born in March, 1919.) The problem remains about visits to your father's house between late 66 and 69, when could they have happened? The thing is that a whole lot is known about what Rand was doing during that time frame. I'm still trying to dig up some unaccounted-for time slots. I'm expecting one or two plausible times to turn up. (I doubt there'd have been as many as three, but, as you say, there might have been an occasion when she and Frank were at your father's house more than once during a particular trip). One thing I wonder is if there might have been another funeral in those years. For instance, Margaret, although you don't recall anything about her. I haven't seen any reference to what Mimi called her. You are certainly giving me an interesting puzzle. Plus, I'm really curious to learn more about Frank's family. I liked Frank - as did everyone else I've ever heard say. - A couple further questions (the chronology you gave earlier was helpful to give me a clear idea of when you were where). Did your step-mother have children of her own? Also, what was her "thing"? Was she a religious fanatic, punishing you and your sister for supposed sins? Or was it just personal nastiness? Ellen [/quoteEllen...do you think all of these visits happened at my mom's, some when they were together and I am confused with visits at my dads with my step-mother? All of Aunt Agnes's stories happened at my dad's, I know that, could I have gotten the visits and the stories together confused? My sister suggested that to me, she said she only remembers...so far...of Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank at my moms. She said, that it could have been at my dad's but so far she doesn't remember that. I hope you are understanding what I am saying. But I remember them drawing on our backs. I am more confused than ever. Or did they make one trip in with my Aunt Agnes, and the rest of the times were at my mom's. Do you know when the last time they visited with aunt Agnes? Your a genius Ellen, yes my step mother did have children. Her son was an Alcoholic (took after his mother) and she had a daughter. I don't remember what her daughter's last name was, but I do know the son's last name. I will see if Conny will get his number for me. When My step-mother died, they said she had a tumor the size of a baseball on here brain, that and the alcoholism made her mentally ill and that's why we were treated the way we were. I wish I knew about Margate, she is the only one I don't remember anything about. Could they have came to my dad's in 66/67? I remember them at my dad's...I am firm on that. I will get a hold of my step mother's son as soon as I can...but if they didn't tell him about Ayn Rand, then what? But if they did tell him, he may know why we weren't told. Conny started reading on this site today, she only went to page 5 and stopped. ..but she's coming around. Hopefully by reading this will bring back some memories,and she has remember some...most about Aunt Agnes, but that's how my memory started to. I'm just happy she didn't shut the door on all this, because I thought she was, and if you knew my sister, that door would have stayed shut and locked forever. Thank you Ellen

Let's not rush into things. Wait until the interrogation team gets back from Indiana. --Brant Bring em on! LOL!

LOL! thanks Danouce!

I haven't so far found a death date for Mimi. However, I did find a death date for your grandfather Dennis: EllenEllen, from what I remember MiMi was old enough to be my mother. She was the oldest child of Aunt Agnes and in 1934, MiMi would have been a very young child. When I was younger I could hardly understand Aunt Alice, and she had been in this country for many years by then...something isn't right in Heller's account on that sentence. How old was MiMi then? If my grandfather died Dec 21, then what I am remembering about him being buried on Christmas eve is correct!! I am remembering right!!!! So if you read back, the only thing I have been wrong about...which was hardly wrong...was Ellen. I thought she was a grand daughter instead of a niece. I ve been right about everything else...why is it so hard for people to believe me about the visits??? Did you find out what MiMi called her, was it Aunt Alice? You have been very helpful for me Ellen, I hope I have help in some ways to ~Cathy~

I don't understand what the big deal is if everyone already knew of the abortion and affair. My first book is coming today, so maybe I will start understanding what the big fuss is over. Im not just upset that they left us there with that crazy woman. Im also just as upset that they let us waste away in the foster care system. From 13 to 18 where the hell where they? I got married at 17 to lose the O'Connor name, my sister soon after she turned 18, that's how bitter we entered into adulthood. Maybe (In those days)you couldn't do much about the abuse in a household, But when the state takes over, where is the family then???? I know they didn't talk after the falling out, but what did they do, just forget about us? Aunt Alice had money, she could have gotten a lawyer or something. But yet they took in Peikoof that wasn't even a relative! I am not angry about Piekoff, or maybe I am, I just don't know yet. I just talked to my sister, she reminded me when we were in 3rd grade, we were taken down to the principals office. The teacher Ms Manzo made us pull up our sleeves and pull down our socks while the principal, Mr Marks examined us, then we were sent back to class. we were totally embarrassed because we had known he seen the bruises and welts, that we received the night before, and thought if my step-mother found out we would pay to the death. It was either a day later or two, a man came and took us to Howard Johnsons and bought us ice cream. He was asking us questions, but we were so happy to have ice cream (my step mother never allowed us to have anything like that)that we concentrated on the ice cream more than the questions. But we (me and Conny) both acted like our life was ok, because we were afraid to tell the truth for fear of my step mother finding out. We didn't know the man was from Children Services and was there to help us. So there is a record somewhere. I sure hope their procedures of interviewing children about their abuse have change, because after the interview those children have to go back to the abusers. When you are abused, you don't trust anybody, for all we knew this was a set up from my step mother to make sure we didn't talk. So why didn't my aunts and uncle care enough to find out about us after the falling out? Aunt Alice could have hire a lawyer...or maybe they thought she killed us by then. To me, their view on things were, they saved Peikoff with out much work, and it publicly looked good, to much work for us, to much ugly publicity...so let them fend for their selves. That would have been around 67/68 and according to OL she was well known then...yes I am angry...very! ~Cathy~Cathy, The fuss would be because of your charges of Ayn and Frank turning a blind eye to child abuse. I'd like to get clearer on chronology myself. When were you sent to live with your father and step-mother? You've said something about a stint in Arizona in 1966. What was that about, and who were you with then? If it was after '66 that you were sent to live with father and step-mother, I'm not surprised if Ayn and Frank lost touch with the situation. Late '67 to '69 was, first, the acceleration to the blow-up between Ayn and Nathaniel. She was plenty preoccupied, as her diary notes make apparent, with upset over her relationship with Nathaniel. After the break (which happened in late August, 1968), there was a period of enormous turmoil, with Rand trying to get caught up with the badly behind-schedule publication, with subsidiary schisms and commotions going on. By about the time that phase had pretty much settled down, Frank was into a decline which worsened over the remainder of his life, with him ultimately hardly recognizing people (such as the Blumenthals) he'd known for years. As awful as this would seem to you, as one of the forgotten children in the circumstance, I can understand how they would have lost sight of you and your sister, especially if Agnes wasn't pushing them for financial help. I think you said that after the 70-71 argument you and Conny overheard, Agnes and your father didn't talk to each other any longer. Is that right? About Peikoff, Ayn and Frank didn't "take him in." He had money in his family; his father was a successful doctor, and he did manage to get academic positions for some years, first at Denver, then at Brooklyn Poly. After Rand's death, he had her estate. Ellen we went to Arizona with my mom for her health, we came back the same year. My mother got sick right after we came back, so when lived with my dad started in 66 and ended in the beginning of 71. My Aunt and my step mother got into the argument at the end of 70, my mother died in Feb 71 and we started running away. I do understand that they were old and Uncle Frank was sick. But they just forgot about us. Uncle Frank didn't die until 1979 and Aunt Alice didn't until 82/83. That still doesn't explain why they didn't tell us Aunt Alice was really Ayn Rand. But regardless, sometime between 66-68 maybe 69, they came to my fathers house 3x for sure. The other 3x must have been at my mothers before 66 or twice my mother traveled to see them. I remember she always seemed busy. Do you know how many visits they made to Aunt Agnes after 66? My dad was still sharp in his mind at 77, he went down just before he died. If uncle Frank was 6 years older he was 82 when he died. I was 21 when my dad died, so I am pretty sure Uncle Frank was with it when I was thirteen. I don't even know what kind of help I expected from them...but I sure know this...I expected more than I got. ~Cathy~Let me re-state the 3x they came to my father's house...I seen them 3 different days at my father's house.

I don't understand what the big deal is if everyone already knew of the abortion and affair. My first book is coming today, so maybe I will start understanding what the big fuss is over. Im not just upset that they left us there with that crazy woman. Im also just as upset that they let us waste away in the foster care system. From 13 to 18 where the hell where they? I got married at 17 to lose the O'Connor name, my sister soon after she turned 18, that's how bitter we entered into adulthood. Maybe (In those days)you couldn't do much about the abuse in a household, But when the state takes over, where is the family then???? I know they didn't talk after the falling out, but what did they do, just forget about us? Aunt Alice had money, she could have gotten a lawyer or something. But yet they took in Peikoof that wasn't even a relative! I am not angry about Piekoff, or maybe I am, I just don't know yet. I just talked to my sister, she reminded me when we were in 3rd grade, we were taken down to the principals office. The teacher Ms Manzo made us pull up our sleeves and pull down our socks while the principal, Mr Marks examined us, then we were sent back to class. we were totally embarrassed because we had known he seen the bruises and welts, that we received the night before, and thought if my step-mother found out we would pay to the death. It was either a day later or two, a man came and took us to Howard Johnsons and bought us ice cream. He was asking us questions, but we were so happy to have ice cream (my step mother never allowed us to have anything like that)that we concentrated on the ice cream more than the questions. But we (me and Conny) both acted like our life was ok, because we were afraid to tell the truth for fear of my step mother finding out. We didn't know the man was from Children Services and was there to help us. So there is a record somewhere. I sure hope their procedures of interviewing children about their abuse have change, because after the interview those children have to go back to the abusers. When you are abused, you don't trust anybody, for all we knew this was a set up from my step mother to make sure we didn't talk. So why didn't my aunts and uncle care enough to find out about us after the falling out? Aunt Alice could have hire a lawyer...or maybe they thought she killed us by then. To me, their view on things were, they saved Peikoff with out much work, and it publicly looked good, to much work for us, to much ugly publicity...so let them fend for their selves. That would have been around 67/68 and according to OL she was well known then...yes I am angry...very! ~Cathy~ If you knew more about "Peikoof"--love your typo--you'd know he was completely out of the loop on this. As for Ayn, it was always no time for children, really, respecting her life choices. Regardless, they couldn't have busted you and your sister out of foster care without assuming custody and there is no way they'd have done that. These were already elderly people and it could have easily been no better than foster care for you girls. (I'm assuming foster care was X while you may not remember X but Y instead.) They couldn't even have found out what was going on with you in foster care. You are obviously a normal, maternal woman, with your kids and all. Barbara Branden once said, "There was nothing maternal about Ayn Rand." Ayn and Frank were more like she the man he the woman rather than the common idea of a married couple--in a way more like two men living together. With Nathaniel Ayn got to be more the woman than she could with Frank. Anyway, it's appear that you and your sister are "the last of the O'Connors" because they ran out of testosterone, which seems to explain a lot about Frank and his not rescuing you. Nathaniel Branden used to say to his therapy groups, "No one is coming to rescue you." Some wag replied, "But that's not true, Nathaniel, you came." "Yes, but I came to tell you no one is coming." You need to pat yourself on the back more for getting on with your life and being so strong. Here's an inexpensive little exercise he once taught me: Stand in front of the bathroom or large mirror, breathe deeply, and say "My name is _________ ___________ and I am enough." Repeat ten times, a deep breath each. It works because it's true--usually painfully true. (Some people might change or modify their names.) --Brant I found out I was too much ha ha ha and I bet that's true! I just wonder, why now, I have older grandchildren and didn't care to dig into the past. I am fifty five years old, probably on the last chapter of my life. I didn't think it would lead to all this. I didn't know about Aunt Alice's "real life". In ways my sister may have been right when she said I shouldn't open a can of worms, I may regret it. I loved the Aunt Alice I knew...not so crazy yet about Ayn Rand. They were the only family we had left, and they just threw us away. I'm just going to have to except that. The mirror thing is a good idea, except I know who I am...they were the ones who forgot who I was. ~Cathy~

I don't understand what the big deal is if everyone already knew of the abortion and affair. My first book is coming today, so maybe I will start understanding what the big fuss is over. Im not just upset that they left us there with that crazy woman. Im also just as upset that they let us waste away in the foster care system. From 13 to 18 where the hell where they? I got married at 17 to lose the O'Connor name, my sister soon after she turned 18, that's how bitter we entered into adulthood. Maybe (In those days)you couldn't do much about the abuse in a household, But when the state takes over, where is the family then???? I know they didn't talk after the falling out, but what did they do, just forget about us? Aunt Alice had money, she could have gotten a lawyer or something. But yet they took in Peikoof that wasn't even a relative! I am not angry about Piekoff, or maybe I am, I just don't know yet. I just talked to my sister, she reminded me when we were in 3rd grade, we were taken down to the principals office. The teacher Ms Manzo made us pull up our sleeves and pull down our socks while the principal, Mr Marks examined us, then we were sent back to class. we were totally embarrassed because we had known he seen the bruises and welts, that we received the night before, and thought if my step-mother found out we would pay to the death. It was either a day later or two, a man came and took us to Howard Johnsons and bought us ice cream. He was asking us questions, but we were so happy to have ice cream (my step mother never allowed us to have anything like that)that we concentrated on the ice cream more than the questions. But we (me and Conny) both acted like our life was ok, because we were afraid to tell the truth for fear of my step mother finding out. We didn't know the man was from Children Services and was there to help us. So there is a record somewhere. I sure hope their procedures of interviewing children about their abuse have change, because after the interview those children have to go back to the abusers. When you are abused, you don't trust anybody, for all we knew this was a set up from my step mother to make sure we didn't talk. So why didn't my aunts and uncle care enough to find out about us after the falling out? Aunt Alice could have hire a lawyer...or maybe they thought she killed us by then. To me, their view on things were, they saved Peikoff with out much work, and it publicly looked good, to much work for us, to much ugly publicity...so let them fend for their selves. That would have been around 67/68 and according to OL she was well known then...yes I am angry...very! ~Cathy~Cathy, The fuss would be because of your charges of Ayn and Frank turning a blind eye to child abuse. I'd like to get clearer on chronology myself. When were you sent to live with your father and step-mother? You've said something about a stint in Arizona in 1966. What was that about, and who were you with then? If it was after '66 that you were sent to live with father and step-mother, I'm not surprised if Ayn and Frank lost touch with the situation. Late '67 to '69 was, first, the acceleration to the blow-up between Ayn and Nathaniel. She was plenty preoccupied, as her diary notes make apparent, with upset over her relationship with Nathaniel. After the break (which happened in late August, 1968), there was a period of enormous turmoil, with Rand trying to get caught up with the badly behind-schedule publication, with subsidiary schisms and commotions going on. By about the time that phase had pretty much settled down, Frank was into a decline which worsened over the remainder of his life, with him ultimately hardly recognizing people (such as the Blumenthals) he'd known for years. As awful as this would seem to you, as one of the forgotten children in the circumstance, I can understand how they would have lost sight of you and your sister, especially if Agnes wasn't pushing them for financial help. I think you said that after the 70-71 argument you and Conny overheard, Agnes and your father didn't talk to each other any longer. Is that right? About Peikoff, Ayn and Frank didn't "take him in." He had money in his family; his father was a successful doctor, and he did manage to get academic positions for some years, first at Denver, then at Brooklyn Poly. After Rand's death, he had her estate. Ellen we went to Arizona with my mom for her health, we came back the same year. My mother got sick right after we came back, so when lived with my dad started in 66 and ended in the beginning of 71. My Aunt and my step mother got into the argument at the end of 70, my mother died in Feb 71 and we started running away. I do understand that they were old and Uncle Frank was sick. But they just forgot about us. Uncle Frank didn't die until 1979 and Aunt Alice didn't until 82/83. That still doesn't explain why they didn't tell us Aunt Alice was really Ayn Rand. But regardless, sometime between 66-68 maybe 69, they came to my fathers house 3x for sure. The other 3x must have been at my mothers before 66 or twice my mother traveled to see them. I remember she always seemed busy. Do you know how many visits they made to Aunt Agnes after 66? My dad was still sharp in his mind at 77, he went down just before he died. If uncle Frank was 6 years older he was 82 when he died. I was 21 when my dad died, so I am pretty sure Uncle Frank was with it when I was thirteen. I don't even know what kind of help I expected from them...but I sure know this...I expected more than I got. ~Cathy~