dougplumb

I would say that the best place for detailed video clip analysis is Jim Hoffmans site at http://911research.wtc7.net/index.html I didn't get into deep video analysis because I saw it all live on CNN as it was happening. I don't think there is any video footage that could be guarenteed undoctored. I think if the squibs were artifacts you would see more of them, from my bit of DSP processing I doubt an artifact would show up to look like a squib. I don't pay attention to the squib stuff, the manner in which the buildings collapsed - straight down through path of greatest resistance tells me it had to be a controlled event. Nothing in the official version suggests the buildings were designed to collapse this way. I hope I never have to enter a building that is designed to collapse straight down and completely into its own footprint in the event of fire and/or minor structural damage.

Christopher "But there are so many people who, unrestricted by fearful beliefs, acheived great wealth despite the 'mice in the corner plotting.' Bill Gates is just such an example." Those days of successful entrepeneurship are going to end very soon. Sustainable Development will make our lives miserable and we will be unable to afford the goods from China. Our resources will be owned by large private corporations who have taken over government, the people will soon have no resources to trade for goods and we will become a third world country. Our governments are not doing anything to help people out of these rough times, only the banks are receiving help from government. Power is being concentrated in a way difficult to image - 10 trillion dollars in debt ! The idea that you have rights as a human being will be replaced with the communitarian agenda. What is best for the population will replace individual ideas. Once this technological corporate state has control it will never lose control. They finally have the technology to take over the world and goal is to preserve and protect the English ruling elite - presumably before people wake up to the factthat our economy was designed to collapse and that we must continue to give rights for value as we go further into unrecoverable debt. The debts that the banker have over us allows them to create more rules, regulations and fines from which to collect interest on that debt. The Club Of Rome document and others explain how the elite wish to lower our standard of living. There will be carbon taxes on almost everything and the environmental agenda will have The Rights Of Man eliminated (reason for environmentalism), private property and gun ownership will soon be a thing of the past. We will become share croppers in this country. It is something to be afraid of and if we all recognize this corruption, honest people in power will see that they have the backing of the people. Nothing can change without the backing of the people. Politicians can be smeared or shot. No one can stand up to this unless they have the backing of the people. Bill Gates was GIVEN his operating system and the mouse. These were invented by Xerox. Gates is one of the ruling elite, he is especially into population control. If you think he is in Africa to save black populations, watch the populations decline where the Bill & Melinda gates foundation does its work. His parents were also part of planned parenthood. The Norman Dodds interview I posted explains how these foundations work.

"In fact, if you watch the videos, this is exactly what it looks like happened. " It looks to me like the top parts of the building above the collapse point in either building was converted to dust before it fell. It does not look like a pancake collapse at all. In fact close examination clearly reveals large chunks being projected upwards and outwards at a speed far greater than the collapse. Propaganda call tell you what you see beore you see it. People think the buildings collapsed due to pancaking. Watch the videos of wtc1 or wtc2 collapsing. "I also hope you read my post on why buildings are structurally built to collapse inward. I'm sure this goes for all skyscrapers... it would be silly to do otherwise." I read some of this, I am wondering why this idea hasn't been put forward before and I am wondering why controlled demolitions require so much meticulous planning if buildings naturally collapse in a similar manner. I am not a structural engineer. Give me the link to your explanation. Are you a structural engineer ? What do you think of the hundreds of engineers that disagree with you ? I don't think there are more than a handful of engineers that publically support the official version. Few have their names on the government reports.

Chris Geib: "A couple of point about Plumb's postings on 9-11. He seems to refer to eyewitnesses. I would regard eyewitness testimony as some of the poorest evidence. Experiments have shown that eyewitnesses do not see as well as they think they do. There is an experiment done in many college psychology where some event will be enacted. I believe a video that almost all the witnesses get it wrong." Eyewitnesses for facial recognition are often wrong, but in this video a bunch of firemen are describing what they saw on that day. There are many witnesses that claim to have seen the squibs, they are also on many videos of the collapses - including the original CNN footage that was shown that morning which I saw as 9/11 was happening. Most people don't want to learn about 9/11. They are happy with the government fairy tale about an omni-potent terrorist mastermind who has brought America to its knees and started two wars. This is the stuff of comic books, not real life.

If anyone is seriously interested in this topic I would say that the references below are about the best that illustrate the "conspiracy theory" point of view. There is a lot of garbage out there that espouses 9/11 conspiracy theories. I've studied this stuff to a meticulous level and have forgotten more than I know now. (1) Jim Hoffman - on the science of the fires and why the buildings couldn't have collapsed by fire and the impacts. Hoffman isn't a formally educated engineer I don't think but he is very good at this and clearly understands the technical issues of the building design (2) Richard gage (architect and creator of ae911truth.org) - same stuff as Hoffman, in fact uses a lot of Hoffmans stuff. (3) David Ray Griffin - has written about 3 books on the subject of 9/11 - covers the event from a wide spectrum point of view. No one knows what caused the buildings to collapse - there are some hypothesis' but none that explain all of the evidence. The manner of the collapse of wtc1 & wtc2 are a big mystery. I believe thermate (Dr. Stephen Jones) was used but it was not all. Three main theorists on this topic are Stephen Jones, Judy Wood, Bill Deagle and possibly someone else I cannot think of at this moment. I am not really qualified to say which one is more correct, but I tend to think Deagle may be right myself. The mini nukes explanation makes a lot of sense to me since this technology was developed in the 50's to demolish large buildings but the controlled demolition method was later created and that is what is used today. You can find mp3 interviews of these people on places like Rense, GunsAndButter and PrisonPlanet, RadioLiberty. I found the interviews with Hoffman on GunsAndButter (KPFA) to be the most informative and interesting. 9/11 is a very interesting thing to study IMO.

Judith, Heres one for you: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4446387174017711777 (the hidden agenda of the tax free foundations (our real government policy body) - interview with Norman Dodd)

So no one is actually able to post evidence that supports the official belief, but conspiracy theorists are still fools. Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth do not think the buildings collapsed naturally. No one has seriously challenged AE911Truth.org without stating outright lies about science. Popular Mechanics is filled with nothing but lies and misinformation. Pick your point ....any point. I'll show you how they are lying in any point they make. The government would push man made global warming, but they would never lie about this. We know this could never happen here. The interview with Jay Rockefeller is interesting, this stuff comes out all over the place. I gave an earlier reference to a Club Of Rome document that explains the plans from the outset in black and white. I wonder why the official version does not explain that the buildings were designed to collapse straight down. I wonder why the designers never explained that when explaining that the buildings were designed to withstand multiple direct collisions with aircraft of this size. I wonder why the NIST report completely ignored the existence of the center core when explaining the collapses in ver 1- did they forget about the center columns ?. A BBC special showed an animated version of the collapse, but the building once again did not have any center columns. The lack of center columns lie was maintained until conspiracy theorists found construction pictures of a strong center column being built as part of the structure. The buildings had a very strong center core, no one mentioned any kind of "fail safe" design in NIST, the design was a "safe life" design. The center core columns would have prevented the buildings from being able to collapse straight down- just by common sense and the incompressibility of concrete. No one of any substance is saying the buildings were designed to go straight down. I have seen hollow earth web sites with more credibility than this one. Anyone can put up a web site...what matters is who stands behind it. I don't trust people that lie all the time... If the official version is true, why is it constantly being changed ? Why are its supporters lying all the time ?

Show me one piece of evidence that supports your belief. You know what Ellul says about smart people and propaganda. You areobviously a smart guy, are you immune somehow or is Ellul wrong ? Where did I put my feet in my mouth, exactly ? Where is my arguement wrong ? Give me a single point.

Maybe you are right - it just cannot happen here and I am wrong by not starting with that axiom.

"Essentially, you prefer to stand in the darkness and curse the darkness while condemning candles as a government plot to rot our teeth." I've given you audio interviews of 3 different doctors that have looked into fluoride, you say nothing but insult me. I show you tons of evidence on 911, you side swipe me on little issues and fail to address the big ones, then you insult me. You haven't expended any intellectual effort at all in this thread. In that sense I agree with you.

Selene, Smart people like you doctors are a lot easier to propagandize than dummies like me. That is a fact. See Jaques Ellul's "Propaganda" for that info. Bernays book is childs play when it comes to propaganda, this guy digs into it. Check it out on Amazon. It was written in the 70's.

Do they electrocute people at these parties?. I see guys with their faces covered in black hoods standing on one foot with an electrode in either hand. I didn't know there was anyone that didn't consider what goes on in Abu Garib torture. Maybe its not electrocution, but are you argueing that the US doesn't use torture at its foreign bases ? There are lots and lots of military and police that will say torture is used. Anyway this is distracting us from the main point. You have absolutely no objective evidence that supports your case. I have tons that supports my case.

"In searching for a new enemy to unite us [all of humanity], we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. In their totality and in their interactions, these phenomena constitute a common threat which as the enemy, we fall into the trap about which we have already warned, namely mistaking symptoms for causes. All these dangers are caused by human intervention and it is only through changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome. The real enemy then is humanity itself." The First Global Revolution (1991), A Report by the Council of the Club of Rome You can find this book as a free PDF online.

Torture is the coersion of a confession through physical pain I believe. Pain compliance is what they are calling torture now. They redefine it all the time. The pictures we have seen out of Abu Garib would certainly be torture. They don't even have any evidence against these guys in there - they are being held for years against their will and away from their families. Taxpayers fund the prison, yet we don't even know its reason for existence. Who in there has done anything wrong ?

You don't have a confession by bin Laden. That confession tape showing bin Laden was not bin laden. Look at the nose and forehead and the spacing of the eyes. see http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osamatape.html There is no audio so there is no way of knowing what was said, unless you believe the mouth interpreters of the Pentagon, people who resort to torture to obtain evidence of confession. The official version goes like this: The Muslims who hate freedom attacked a symbol of "freedom" in America (the marriage of corporations and gov), they were in a bar getting lap dances and getting drunk the night before and bought two way tickets for a one way airplane ride. One of them even received a pay cheque from the CIA. This is public information. Take a look at the FBI most wanted list. bin Laden is not even listed as wanted for 9/11, he is wanted for USS Cole bombing. In which case security allowed someone to park a vehicle right beside one of their war ships. There is piles of evidence of all these conspiracies. I'll really bake your noodle when we get into global warming and the satanic child sacrifices done in the name of Gia worship. Check out Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler sometime. He was the most decorated marine of ww1. He had two congressional medals of honor. He explains what war is all about in a short <10 page essay. This stuff is really hard to accept, but for a true objective thinker, conclusions are clear. People ask "what can you do about it?" Do what I am doing right now. This info seeps into the consciousness of the armies and "police" (who are technically soldiers)

The evidence for 9/11 being an inside job is endless. Gov is the only one that had means, motive and opportunity. The buildings were shut down two weeks prior to the attacks. All security was shut down. They took the bomb sniffing dogs out of the building a week before it happened. Buildings do not callapse straight down through the path of greatest resistance due to fires. It especially can't happen 3 times in one day. Have you seen the wtc7 collapse ? Have you watched Terrorstorm ? How about the ae911truth.org slide presentation ? Rumsfeld admitted that Fl 93 was shot down ON VIDEO !!!! (it slipped out) Lets hear your objective reasoning as to why you think Muslim terrorists did it, if they did it, how ? Show me a single piece of evidence.

Sure they could be mistaken, but I also have seen the squibs on video. There is a pattern here that cannot be denied. The London 7/7 bombings had an exercise going at THE SAME TIME with bombs going off at the exact same places and times !!! They still haven't identified the driver with Timothy McVeigh in the OKC bombings. What evidence do you have to support the Muslim terrorist did it hypothesis ? I have never seen any evidence of this. I have seen rumours, heresay and lies. There is nothing at all that supports the government story. Did you watch Terrorstorm ? Like Jones or not, look at his evidence objectively.

I had heard about various conspiracies all my life and considered that most of them were probably true based on what I knew about the Kennedy Assassination. I assumed that government must be criminal or else they would do a proper investigation. In 2001 I saw 9/11 happen and concluded immediately after seeing the building collapse that it was a controlled event. I found this interesting. Then I dealt with the Law Society of Upper Canada to complain about crimes committed by a lawyer. The level of corruption in that place hit me like a pile of bricks. I see it all now and am an avid conspiracy theorist, desperately trying to wake up as many people as possible. I don't think most people see it until they experience the level of corruption in our society for themselves. This is why conspiracies are often flogged by "non mainstream peaople". People that are comfortable do not want to think about this stuff. Dealing with lawyers in Canada can make one awfully uncomfortable, even before the wallet comes out. The whole system is rotten up here. I believe our society is becoming populated with psychopaths at the top and that they tend to stick togather to take over the planet and create a fascist world dictatorship. Psychopaths are always afraid of being discovered and their fear is driving this. I think the stuff about Jews, etc is to distract us from truth. I really don't think the whole thing is being led by Jewish bankers. They have been scapegoated, and they are always scapegoated because they are a small group. In many cases they are the front men, but the front men are never the ones actually in control. I read a great book on psychopaths called "The Psychopath Next Door" by Margaret Stout, a Harvard Phd. Its easily readable and very informative using case studies and fictional examples. Anyone can read this book, everyone should IMO. People that are comfortable tend to ostrich their way away from truth. Humans are not rational or objective.

You can see the video testimony of firemen saying that ! See Terrorstorm by Alex Jones.

I can post the Finders, an FBI report by Ted Gunderson and others that statistically prove that child abductions for satanic rituals occur right before environmental dates such as summer / winter equinox, solistice, etc. He has anthropogical evidence to prove it. Gunderson had 800 agents working under him until he quit when he learned that gov was bringing in the drugs. Noam Chomsky, the leader of the controlled left has written that fuel tanks full of coke have landed in Florida on A6's. The fact that gov brings in most of the drugs has been widely reported. I have had an actual Luciferian admit that some of her co-workers in a law firm "were likely into it"- "it" being satanic child molestation rituals. She thought it was cute because these people are high on the power that gov gives to them.

Bill P. "Is this the best example of a conspiracy of which you are aware, and is this some of what you view as the best evidence for it?" Yes, but all you need to look at is the videos. The buildings collapsing straight down through their own center axis is the path of greatest resistance. Its impossible according to the second law of thermodynamics. I'm no thermo expert, but this is the words of Dr. Stephen Jones, the guy the government thought best qualified to look into this whole cold fusion thing after the initial claims and report back to gov. I knew I was watching a CD when I saw the buildings go down that morning on TV. Check out http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/ for an long list of very accomplished people who agree with me.

I would expect that most people already know all the facts I have listed. If not there are plenty of web sources. I suggest: ae911truth.org 9/11 Timeline The official version of events - various You-Tube, etc videos of the buildings collapsing straight down. 9/11 Mysteries is a good movie, so is Loose Change 3 - which is an exhaustive documentary on the topic. Everyone has seen the videos of the buildings collapsing straight down. Ever hear of Richard Cook ? He is the guy that exposed the rings on the Challenger disaster as causing the accidents. Read his stuff on globalresearch.ca regarding banking and the ruling elites. See also Dr. Ellen Brown's Web Of Deceipt.

On Sept 11, the following events occured: Two planes, one each crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center. These crashes occured between 8:30 and 9:30 AM on the 11th. Both towers collapsed straight down through the path of greatest resistance in little more time than it would take an object to fall from the roof of either building to the ground. Multiple controlled demolition type explosions were seen by many witnesses. Immediately communist news began to blame Usama bin Laden. To this day the FBI has not listed bin Laden as a suspect in 9/11 - they have no evidence. The official version of the collapses was that the buildings collapsed from fire and structural damage. According the the NIST report, structural damage was small - its less than 30 % of any floor - from the diagrams in the NIST report . Fire has never caused the collapse of "skscraper" type buildings in history.( In 1975 one of the wtc buildings burned for hours on the 11th floor in a fire that was easily seen to be hotter and to burn longer than the fires in the wtc buildings on Sept 11 2001. The building remained standing and was said to have had had absolutely no structural damage in the NY times. ) Airplane fuel fires do not melt structural steel, even the NIST report says all fires were no hotter than 500 deg C, and mostly under 250 deg C. This is in the range of a fuel fire at standard temperature and pressure, which burns cooler than propane which never seems to melt propane stoves. The official version of this fire had molten metal flowing like water. The initial flight manifest of the two airplanes did not have any of the plastic knife wielding terrorists listed that supposedly took the planes over from military trained pilots and flew them through heavily defended airspace for 1/2 hour or more after the planes were known to have been hijacked. (the list was later released with their names added to it) Confusion that allowed the attacks to happen was due to a military training exercise that was ocurring at the exact same time and involving the exact same type of attack - exactly like at the OKC bombing and exactly like the London 7/7 bombing. Always a co-incident identical exercise going on, yet no one is ever busted from the inside. At about 10:30 the Pentagon was attacked. The plane was said to have flown a flight path that has since been said to be impossible by many pilots, see Pilots for 9/11 truth. There were no bodies found in the wreckage. The grass on the Pentagon was dug up and replaced immediately after the incident. The hole created in the Pentagon does not have holes or damage where the engines should have been on the airplane. At 5 PM later that day, wtc7 collapsed in a manner that was identical to a perfectly executed conventional controlled demolition in every manner possible. It was a textbook example of a controlled demolition. Its the most cockame story I have ever heard in my life. Its an insult and the purpose of that insult was to humiliate people and to scare them into submission. Earlier that year in July, the Taliban was reported to have burned 90 % of the opium crops, three weeks after Sept 11 the US and others invaded Afghanistan in an invasion that would have taken months to plan and prepare. Now the Afghan heroin output is up over 700 billion dollars per year, consistently breaking records from one year to the next. Whey did the communist news networks immediately blame Usama bin Laden ? Why not some intelligence agency of a foreign power ? The American government has deemed it necessary to remove rights under the Patriot Act. What is now known as engineered anthrax was used to scare congress into signing the Patriot Act in a time interval between releasing the act to signing it so short that a computer couldn't have read this document. The Patriot act was written long before the attacks occured. Since then the USA has experienced greater and greater security measures to bring the USA into full fascism. This includes putting cameras in the bathrooms of publoic schools so that the authorities can watch them pee and make sure they are not collaborating with the most deadly and powerful terrorist mastermind known in history. If human beings are capable of objective thought, how is it that some people can still believe this nonsense ? I do not believe for a minute that human beings are capable of truly objective reasoning. Ayn Rands books are great but the objectivist philosophy is largely a fantasy. Objectivism and fascism are totally incompatible, yet we have people on this objectivist website that fully agree with the official version of 9/11, yet present themselves as objectivists. Didn't Rand warn us about governments and corporations uniting ? Isn't that what the USA is really all about ? Who here believes in man made global warming and that man is destroying the planet ? That's the second most cockame thing I have ever heard.

"For a threat to become a social reality in America, you need a lot more than a politician." Politicians have little to do with it. Do you want your salesmen in a blue suit or a red suit ? All you need is paper money.

"Dr Phil Edwards, of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, said: “Moving about in a heavy body is like driving in a gas guzzler.” " Dr. Phil Edwards is an idiot and I can prove it. Hope this hurts your feelings Phil. Go ahead, call the cops