NY TIMES ALERT Congresswoman Giffords shot in the head in Tucson!

[algernonsidney]

It seems like Judge John Roll is better known for upholding a lawsuit filed by illegal immigrants against a rancher in Arizona. The rancher actually had the audacity to pull a gun on illegals who were trespassing on his property. This was in 2009. The judge apparently does not care that these people vandalize his property and consider it an "avenue of choice."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/9/16-illegals-sue-arizona-rancher/

[Selene]

It seems like Judge John Roll is better known for upholding a lawsuit filed by illegal immigrants against a rancher in Arizona. The rancher actually had the audacity to pull a gun on illegals who were trespassing on his property. This was in 2009. The judge apparently does not care that these people vandalize his property and consider it an "avenue of choice."

http://www.washingto...rizona-rancher/

IRLI Successfully Defends Arizona Rancher in Civil Rights Lawsuit by Illegal Aliens

In a setback for the illegal alien advocacy network's strategy of legal intimidation, on February 17 a federal jury in Tucson rejected nearly all of the substantive claims brought by MALDEF against Arizona rancher and immigration reform activist Roger Barnett. Earlier, on February 10, federal district judge John M. Roll threw out related conspiracy complaints against his wife Barbara and his brother Donald Barnett, and dismissed the claims brought by ten illegal aliens who did not testify in court. Judge Roll explained that illegal aliens have no constitutionally protected right to travel in the U.S. and that people, like the Barnetts, who live in close proximity to the border can make a reasonable assumption that large groups of people they encounter hiding or trespassing are doing so with the aid of smugglers, a federal felony for which private action is authorized under Arizona citizens arrest and criminal trespass law.

Your next point about the judge is...?

[william.scherk]

It seems like Judge John Roll is better known for upholding a lawsuit filed by illegal immigrants against a rancher in Arizona.

You are misinformed on this, Chris. Roll's court did not uphold the lawsuit, but allowed it to proceed. The rancher won the lawsuit, and good for him.

In any case, I think we all have sufficient information to judge your grip on events and on morality. It does not bother you one little bit that a judge was shot to death. It looks like you are amenable to extra-judicial killings.

You know, I am not an Objectivist. I disagree with many Objectivist dogtrines, but I admire Objectivists when they use reason to the best of their abilities and understanding and when they are curious and intelligent . . .

I don't know if you call yourself an Objectivist. But I think you are morally depraved.

I wish you a happy life, but I doubt anyone as stupid and hateful as you could be happy, unless you are also mentally handicapped and exist in a twilight zone of blissful fuckheadedness.

[william.scherk]

It seems like Judge John Roll is better known for upholding a lawsuit filed by illegal immigrants against a rancher in Arizona.

You are misinformed on this, Chris. Roll's court did not uphold the lawsuit, but allowed it to proceed. The rancher won the lawsuit, and good for him.

In any case, I think we all have sufficient information to judge your grip on events and on morality. It does not bother you one little bit that a judge was shot to death. It looks like you are amenable to extra-judicial killings.

You know, I am not an Objectivist. I disagree with many Objectivist doctrines, but I admire Objectivists when they use reason to the best of their abilities and understanding and when they are curious and intelligent . . .

I don't know if you call yourself an Objectivist. But I think you are morally depraved.

I wish you a happy life, but I doubt anyone as stupid and hateful as you could be happy, unless you are also mentally handicapped and exist in a twilight zone of blissful fuckheadedness.

Edited January 9, 2011 by william.scherk

[Selene]

William:

Beat you by one (1) minute... must have been that dive into the end zone that did it!

Adam

[william.scherk]

Beat you by one (1) minute... must have been that dive into the end zone that did it!

I wish I hadn't written that, actually. The callousness got me, and I didn't understand how a guy who opposes capital punishment can be so unmoved by this kind of assassination.

I am sure Chris regrets sounding so heartless, and wishes he had kept his mouth shut on this thread. He will also probably come back and apologize for his mistakes and I will apologize for calling him morally depraved . . .

+++++++++++

More news about the judge from the Wall Street Journal:

The federal judge who was shot dead Saturday at a political event in Tucson, Arizona was there to thank U.S. Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords for backing his effort to get more judicial support for the swelling numbers of immigration cases in his district, according to two U.S. federal judges.

Edited January 9, 2011 by william.scherk

[algernonsidney]

It does not bother you one little bit that a judge was shot to death. It looks like you are amenable to extra-judicial killings.

I did not write that.

What do I care that a judge has been killed? That's just one less parasite that we all have to support. I'm sure that they will find someone else to take his place.

Can you believe that the University of Arizona is postponing a scheduled basketball game because of this?

Edited January 9, 2011 by Chris Baker

[Brant Gaede]

It does not bother you one little bit that a judge was shot to death. It looks like you are amenable to extra-judicial killings.

I did not write that.

What do I care that a judge has been killed? That's just one less parasite that we all have to support. I'm sure that they will find someone else to take his place.

Can you believe that the University of Arizona is postponing a scheduled basketball game because of this?

I live in Tucson and know a lot about Tucson and the basketball program. That was appropriate.

--Brant

[Selene]

UPDATE: Giffords Survives, 6 Dead, 1 in Custody, Another Sought

Photo Courtesy - Pima County Sheriff's Department(TUCSON, Ariz.) -- Officials were looking Sunday for a possible accomplice in the Saturday shooting at the La Toscana Village Shopping Center in northwest Tucson. The apparent target, Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, is listed in very critical condition with a gunshot wound to the head. Among the six people dead are nine-year-old Christina Taylor Greene, Federal Judge John Roll and Giffords' Community Outreach Director, Gabe Zimmerman. Thirteen others were wounded.

Bystanders tackled the alleged gunman, 22-year-old Jared Lee Loughner but authorities are not convinced Loughner acted alone. They have released a photo of a "person of interest" in the case and are asking anyone who has seen the man shown to contact authorities right away. He is a white male, in his 40s or 50s with dark hair.

Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik described the suspect as "mentally unstable." Others who knew him in high school and at Pima Community College say he acted inappropriately in class and was strange. Investigators say while they are not certain he acted alone, Loughner fits the so-called "loner" profile.

[Robert Campbell]

A couple more things:

Interviews with two of the men who held Loughner down after another person tackled him indicate that he was trying to reload his gun.

Loughner was suspended from Pima Community College during the Fall 2010 semester, for repeatedly disrupting classes with bizarre behavior. He wasn't officially expelled, but PCC wanted a letter from a psychiatrist before allowing him back in.

Robert Campbell

[Selene]

A couple more things:

Interviews with two of the men who held Loughner down after another person tackled him indicate that he was trying to reload his gun.

Loughner was suspended from Pima Community College over a year ago, for repeatedly disrupting classes with bizarre behavior. He wasn't officially expelled, but PCC wanted a letter from a psychiatrist before allowing him back in.

Robert Campbell

Robert:

Have you seen any information on his parents? He seems to have spontaneously appeared in his High School yearbook.

Adam

[9thdoctor]

What do I care that a judge has been killed? That's just one less parasite that we all have to support. I'm sure that they will find someone else to take his place.

If this were Roland Freisler I’d be with you. Actually, then this would be a cause for celebration. However, from his Wikipedia page Roll seems like he was a decent guy, as politicians go. Rather than improvising an essay on the validity of the judiciary’s role in society, allow me to indulge in a bit of argument ad verecundiam by pointing out that Ayn Rand’s view of the proper functions of government included law courts. You say this guy was a parasite, I think AR would beg to differ.

[Brant Gaede]

The bullet went through Gifford's head front to back left side. The right side of the brain was not affected. She appears to have high level of brain function and is in an induced coma to mitigate swelling. She probably has years of rehab ahead of her. It seems the bullet must have been a solid point for a hollow point would have expanded and perhaps disintegrated in the brain also releasing more energy causing much more damage.

Edit: the bullet went from back to front, which apparently tends to be less damaging than front to back.

--Brant

Edited January 9, 2011 by Brant Gaede

[Robert Campbell]

Adam,

Loughner's parents were notified when he was suspended from Pima Community College.

And various acquaintances have referred to the neighborhood he grew up in.

I haven't seen a word about or from his parents.

Robert Campbell

[Selene]

Adam,

Loughner's parents were notified when he was suspended from Pima Community College.

And various acquaintances have referred to the neighborhood he grew up in.

I haven't seen a word about or from his parents.

Robert Campbell

Thanks Robert:

It is amazing what passes for a journalist today.

By the way, has anybody seen or heard a mention, other than cursory, about Major Hassan?

Adam

[jriggenbach]

It is amazing what passes for a journalist today.

There's nothing I like better than reading comments on journalism written by someone who really knows something about the field, its history, and the standards appropriate for judging its practitioners. I am, therefore, waiting with bated breath to learn "what passes for a journalist today."

JR

[Brant Gaede]

It's really weird to have first-hand knowledge about that part of town. I used to use the 24-hour Walgreens right next to the shooting. I didn't use the grocery store much, if any, but I don't think it was a Safeway's eight-ten years ago. My own local Safeway is my primary food source. I know the manager quite well. He's the father-in-law of Memphis head basketball coach Josh Pastner who used to be assistant coach to Lute Olson at the University of Arizona. I only mention this out of wonder how threads of various thicknesses can run through our lives.

I think I'm still somewhat traumatized by the Kennedy assassination of 1963 when I was in college. Then Martin Luther King in 1968 followed by Robert Kennedy just two months after watching him give a stump speech to a small band of spectators at the U of A on the back of a truck with no apparent security. I thought then how easy it would be to kill him and it made me worry. All of these had serious, negative political consequences, especially President Kennedy's. The shooting of Gifford's is likely to do even more such damage as the State hurries up eating itself and the citizenry generally.

--Brant

Edited January 9, 2011 by Brant Gaede

[Brant Gaede]

It is amazing what passes for a journalist today.

There's nothing I like better than reading comments on journalism written by someone who really knows something about the field, its history, and the standards appropriate for judging its practitioners. I am, therefore, waiting with bated breath to learn "what passes for a journalist today."

JR

"Dr. Livingstone, I presume." (Stanley, after shooting his way through Africa.)

--Brant

match up to that

Edited January 9, 2011 by Brant Gaede

[Selene]

It is amazing what passes for a journalist today.

There's nothing I like better than reading comments on journalism written by someone who really knows something about the field, its history, and the standards appropriate for judging its practitioners. I am, therefore, waiting with bated breath to learn "what passes for a journalist today."

JR

Jeffrey:

I am confused, was there something unclear about what I stated?

I am not pleased with the manner and methodology in which many individuals who profess to be journalists conduct themselves when they investigate the who, what, where when and how of an event.

I believe that the journalist has an affirmative duty to further public enlightenment by seeking the truth and providing a fair and comprehensive account of events and issues.

Adam

[jriggenbach]

I am confused . . . .

That has long been evident.

. . . was there something unclear about what I stated?

Of course.

I am not pleased with the manner and methodology in which many individuals who profess to be journalists conduct themselves when they investigate the who, what, where when and how of an event.

How does one "profess" to be a journalist? Either one is a journalist, or one isn't a journalist. Either one writes for periodical publication about current news in some area of human endeavor, or one doesn't. Whether one is a journalist is obvious on its face.

I believe that the journalist has an affirmative duty to further public enlightenment by seeking the truth and providing a fair and comprehensive account of events and issues.

What about those journalists whose assignment is to provide commentary on current issues and events from a particular point of view? What about those journalists who work for publications like The Nation or National Review or Reason, where the task at hand is often to describe current issues and events as they look to someone with a particular ideological slant?

Or when you say "journalist" do you actually mean "hard news reporter"? The terms are not identical, as I'm sure you know, since you know so very, very much about journalism.

JR

[Reidy]

Here's an example of what I think Selene was talking about: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sarah-palins-crosshairs-ad-focus-gabrielle-giffords-debate/story?id=12576437

My point, which I suspect was Selene's as well, is that one doesn't have to be an expert to see the malice and dishonesty in this kind of reportage.

[Selene]

Jeffrey:

Profess was used satirically.

I am an originalist when it comes to journalism. A journalist reports. A editorial opinion writer declares that he is giving a point of view and not the hard news.

Walter Lippman viewed the journalist as an intermediary between the public and the event, or person. that created what was to be distilled and presented to the public.

A person who is hired to present opinion or commentary are called commentators, opinion makers or editorialists.

This is the dichotomy that I perceive. If you have a different definition of a journalist, I am open to considering modifying my definition for the purpose of discussion.

Adam

[Selene]

Here's an example of what I think Selene was talking about: http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=12576437

My point, which I suspect was Selene's as well, is that one doesn't have to be an expert to see the malice and dishonesty in this kind of reportage.

Yep, and we know this has never been done by the Democrats. Can you imagine the Dems putting targets on a map of the US and putting cross hairs or bulls eyes on the map?

I mean journalists would be all over that!

The map appears on this page of the Democratic Leadership Committee website (dated 2004 during the Bush years). I guess we could argue over whether the DLC counts as "senior party officials" but they're certainly as much a part of the party as Palin who, after all, currently holds no elected office.

I mean ...oops

Adam

Edited January 9, 2011 by Selene

[jriggenbach]

Jeffrey:

Profess was used satirically.

I am an originalist when it comes to journalism. A journalist reports. A editorial opinion writer declares that he is giving a point of view and not the hard news.

Walter Lippman viewed the journalist as an intermediary between the public and the event, or person. that created what was to be distilled and presented to the public.

A person who is hired to present opinion or commentary are called commentators, opinion makers or editorialists.

This is the dichotomy that I perceive. If you have a different definition of a journalist, I am open to considering modifying my definition for the purpose of discussion.

Adam

A journalist is a person who writes (or otherwise communicates) periodically about new events and ideas. (The term is also commonly extended to include many if not all the people who provide support services to the writers and other communicators - editors, in particular, but sometimes even typesetters, printers, and compositors, as well as radio, TV and Internet producers.) An editorial writer is a journalist. So is an opinion writer. (In the business, there is no such thing as an "editorial opinion writer.") A sportswriter is a journalist. Miss Manners is a journalist. A news photographer is a journalist. A person who writes about cooking for a daily newspaper is a journalist. Walter Lippmann was a journalist, though he devoted his career mainly to editorial and opinion writing. To say that someone is not a journalist but a commentator is like saying that Loren Estleman is not an author but a detective novelist, or that John Williams is not a musician but a guitarist.

The word "journalist" is often used interchangeably with the phrase "hard news reporter" by people who know nothing about journalism, but their usage flies in the face of several hundred years of usage in our language. You find Edgar Allan Poe in the early 19th Century talking about people who write for and edit magazines (including literary magazines) as journalists - a usage identical to the one employed half a century and more earlier by Samuel Johnson. You find Cyril Connolly in the early 20th Century using the term "journalism" to describe book reviewing. You find Edmund Wilson describing himself around the same time as essentially a journalist. And what is someone who adopts your usage to make of what is conventionally called "advocacy journalism" - that is, hard news reporting that openly looks at current issues and events from a particular ideological stance? Does the phrase "advocacy journalism" make no sense to you? Does it make your head swim? Does it seem a contradiction in terms? If so, you don't understand the concept "journalism."

Of course, that needn't stop you from knowing exactly what is defective about the performance of everyone who practices journalism. You don't know what it is, but you know exactly how it should be done.

JR

[Backlighting]

Adam, we have "open carry" in Tucson.

--Brant

Same here in Las Vegas but I have never seen anyone, save law enforcement, with a weapon at his side.