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Of course. You think that somehow or some “why” the coronavirus if it exists at all, is not worthy of worry or a shot. And the whole thing is a government plot to jab you in the arm for mind control reasons and then the government will harvest your body for Soylent Green.  Seriously, if your doctor recommended you get the shot, would you? As an example of what is going on in Illinois 20 people died yesterday from Covid-19. Check your state's numbers and evaluate the medical data and if you choose to not get the shot . . . . ouch. 

edit. Maybe this will change the “deniers” minds. From USA Today: Donald Trump, Melania Trump secretly received COVID-19 vaccine in January.

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William, No, It's a fundamental fed up and pissed off identification. I despise people who kill innocents. I despise people who promote endless war for profit. I despise peopl

Indeed. I may be skeptical about aspects of the story, but not the story itself.

Verified is a funny word , nowadays, perhaps always, but definitely nowadays.

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Standing Up to Experts and Authorities: How to Avoid Being Intimidated, Manipulated, and Abused by Sharon Presley (2010)

“Dr. Sharon Presley offers a how-to toolkit that provides specific techniques to help people stand up to and deal effectively with experts in a wide range of contexts. This book looks at specific settings in which authorities or experts can bamboozle people, including institutions (e.g., schools, bureaucracies), the workplace (e.g., dealing with bosses, evaluations, and raises), media (e.g., news programs, magazines, self-help books), and services (e.g., medical care, lawyers, customer service, contractors, psychologists). It also explores how to stand up for your rights and the rights of others with the police and other government agencies.

Michael Shermer, author of Why People Believe Weird Things, says I love this book! I wish I would have written this book! This is skepticism for the real world, an introduction on how to think, a manual for the survival of the human race. Sharon Presley is the Ralph Nader of bad ideas, the consumer advocate of bogus claims and phony experts.

“A sensible, practical, easy-to-read book that could literally save your career, your sanity, or even your life...Sharon Presley shows us how to think for ourselves and to protect our rights in difficult and even life-threatening situations when dealing with authorities and experts writes Peter R. Breggin, MD, author of Medication Madness and Talking Back to Prozac.”

https://www.amazon.com/Standing-Experts-Authorities-Intimidated-Manipulated/dp/0934623872

 

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I do believe there is in all likelyhood a novel corona virus infection running through the human population. I also tend to believe it is the result of gain of function studies and that it leaked , intentionally or not, from the research facility in Wuhan. Given my personal factors I don't consider the risk of harm to myself or my family to be great enough to believe the full extent of the mitigation actions of the state to be fully warranted . Beyond health and safety warnings and advisories the governments of the world have overreached in their reactions.

One of the reactions is the mass production and distribution of atypical vaccines. mRNA vaccines for viruses have not been tested or used prior to Covid19, given that the degree of harm witnessed is fairly consistent with historic harm from similar outbreaks this type of inoculation effort ( included the method, mRNA ) is a radical change from the past. As with the results of lockdown I'm skeptical about new vaccines, especially considering there are therapeutics to treat the disease progression.

I'm less skeptical about polio vaccines because they have been around for decades and are based on inoculation techniques that are and have been used in most of the successful vaccines used by medical science, the new vaccines are just that 'new' so,, good luck with that, who knows yeah ? They could very well be on to something there, but 'their' word on that is not the stuff that quells my skepticism.

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55 minutes ago, tmj said:

I'm less skeptical about polio vaccines because they have been around for decades and are based on inoculation techniques that are and have been used in most of the successful vaccines used by medical science,

As a post-polio-syndrome sufferer, I urge inoculating children against polio.  (The first polio vaccine wasn’t available yet when I got childhood polio, at age about 6.)

This mRNA pseudo-vaccine is a different issue from the vaccines for historic disease scourges.

Ellen

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We have had our children receive all the recommended vaccines and boosters through the years. Our daughter gets more than most given she is enrolled in adult day programs and must receive yearly reviews and boosters to be eligible for participation. Luckily for us the program has instituted in home care givers while state restrictions for on-site programs are still in force.

We haven't received any guidance going forward on whether or not vaccinations will be required for participation , I suppose we will cross those bridges when we get there.

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On 3/1/2021 at 10:45 AM, Peter said:

Dr. Wale Dr. Walensky started by giving an overview of the current state of the pandemic.nsky started by giving an overview of the current state of the pandemic [...]

Press Briefing by White House COVID-19 Response Team and Public Health Officials | The White House

CDC-head-briefing-White_House.png

Edited by william.scherk
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Two states have dropped the mask mandate. Since I just got my first Pfizer shot I am ready to take off the mask . . . but I will wait until it is legal in Maryland to avoid the hassles. I am not yet ready to go into a large food store or Walmart. I will wait and use Instacart a few more times and go into Pet Smart to get cat food and bird seed as I did today.

Thanks for the White House briefing, William. I think we have come too far with a year's lock down to ruin things now.

Home front news? All is well. My Foxie continues to socialize and gets a can of Alpo whenever she shows up but she isn't coming here as frequently. Odd.  

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4 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

As a post-polio-syndrome sufferer, I urge inoculating children against polio.

I remember standing in a  long, long line to get one of the two vaccines that were out back then. I got both types of polio vaccine. A friend of my wife had polio some time after my shots and she has never "been right" since then, and still walks with a limp. Living through an epidemic keeps you emotionally in sync with science and medicine.  

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

Living through an epidemic keeps you emotionally in sync with science and medicine.

Peter,

Science and medicine were honest and not much funded by government in the years of the polio crisis.  It’s a different world today, and what you’re "in synch" with is largely the false creation of a "transhumanist"/CCP alliance.

Not that it isn’t wise for you to be careful about the Covid virus, given your age, and possibly other factors I don’t know about, but...you persistently exhibit a high degree of gullibility.

Ellen

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14 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

you persistently exhibit a high degree of gullibility.

Reason leads me to think  the opposite. You are gullible and easily "fooled" into believing "claims" and not I. Ask any doctor if they recommend a Covid vaccine. I think you know what they will say. "Get it!" And I think somewhere within your line of thinking you have your doubts about denying the truth. You have been brainwashed.

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From what I've seen , not 'any' doctor will or should  automatically recommend "Get it!" .

The risks of an experimental vaccine do not outweigh the risk of disease from infection for those 50 years old or younger. And there are increasing concerns about pregnancy and the vaccine, concerns with women currently pregnant and questions about women and future pregnancies.

The availability of therapeutics ( or the existence of therapeutics notwithstanding government restrictions on their use) and the survivablity  rates for those 50 and under seem to make the push for population wide vaccination rationally questionable. Those over 50 and those with significant comorbidities would of course make different calculations.

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4 hours ago, Peter said:

Ask any doctor if they recommend a Covid vaccine.

LOL.  I certainly wouldn’t "ask any doctor," since my knowledge of virology, a subject I started studying before the structure of DNA was announced, surpasses that of most doctors.  The doctors whose opinions I respect on the subject agree with me in being leery of the Covid "vaccines."

Ellen

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4 minutes ago, tmj said:

The availability of therapeutics ( or the existence of therapeutics notwithstanding government restrictions on their use)...

T,

I'm over 50 and this is precisely one reason why I am not getting the vaccine. 

Another reason is I don't trust the people involved in the vaccine projects.

But... doctors are not corruptible are they?

Or wrong?

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Well, I guess that was then and now is now...

Doctors have grown morally since then, huh?

Like Dr. Fauci, huh?...

:evil:  :) 

Michael

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21 minutes ago, tmj said:

The risks of an experimental vaccine do not outweigh the risk of disease from infection for those 50 years old or younger.

Did you mean to write "50 years old or older"?

 

23 minutes ago, tmj said:

And there are increasing concerns about pregnancy and the vaccine, concerns with women currently pregnant and questions about women and future pregnancies.

We might have something like happened with thalidomide.

Ellen

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6 hours ago, Peter said:
20 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

you persistently exhibit a high degree of gullibility.

Reason leads me to think  the opposite. You are gullible and easily "fooled" into believing "claims" and not I. Ask any doctor if they recommend a Covid vaccine.

Peter and the VA versus fifty-nine years of protracted personal study of virology. Ready, set, citations!

https://collegeofphysicians.org/history-of-vaccines

historyofvaccines~2.png

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2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Well, I guess that was then and now is now...

Michael,

The sort of commercials you posted were an early indication to me that advertising claims are to be viewed with suspicion.

I knew lots of doctors, coming, as I did, from a medical family, and I don’t recall any of them, including doctors who smoked themselves, saying that smoking was good for you or touting benefits of any particular brand of cigarette.

Sure, there were doctors then who were corruptible, but just because advertisers were saying "Doctors say..." doesn’t mean that doctors were saying....

Ellen

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Ellen, 

I misspoke , I mean to say that for those 50 and younger , the new vaccines are riskier than possible infection.

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10 hours ago, Peter said:

Reason leads me to think  the opposite. You are gullible and easily "fooled" into believing "claims" and not I. Ask any doctor if they recommend a Covid vaccine. I think you know what they will say. "Get it!" And I think somewhere within your line of thinking you have your doubts about denying the truth. You have been brainwashed. thbd

I have a lot of medical training and experience. Most doctors who aren't specialists aren't all that good.  Some are terrible. 

--Brant

lots of doctors specialize in arguments from authority and most who aren't doctors defer to the white coats even if not actually worn

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3 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said:

Sure, there were doctors then who were corruptible...

Ellen,

Of course. Just as there are today.

But today the corruption is a bit more nuanced. Instead of an out-and-out payment for an ad, you don't need to do any investigation to see how many big pharma reps visit doctors each day. Just go to a waiting room a bit early for an appointment. What's that I smell? Extra money? :) 

It is well-known that hospitals and clinics get extra money for COVID-19 cases, so the numbers show lots of infection. I wonder why, I wonder... Especially since normal flu numbers tank at the same time. Doctors are the ones who get the ball moving on that.

I could go on, but what is the essential difference between pushing a brand name drug for money, or fudging the need to take a test for money, and endorsing cigarettes in a magazine for money? The fudged endorsement is the same. And so is the money.

I bet many, many doctors who do this don't do to their families what they do to the public. Especially not if they smell a rat. But they still take the money...

The Hippocratic Oath sure has a hard time competing with moolah depending on the plethora of favorable situations and temptations out there...

:) 

Being a doctor means nothing morally. There is no degree for good character in med school. The doctor has to want to be good to have good character.

btw - I agree about doctors not pushing cigarettes in private back then. I bet most doctors knew smoking was bad for you, even those who smoked.

Those endorsements were the brainchild of Eddie Bernays (I read his bio and other info about him, and some of his writing). Also, whenever you see fudged endorsements (for anything, not just cigarettes) coming from a name of an organization you never heard of, including when doctors are part of those organizations, that is Bernays peeking out at everyone, too. It's easy to make up and register organizations. :) 

The bad character of doctors who were willing to sell out was the common denominator Bernays and those like him preyed on, not enthusiasm by doctors for the cigarettes themselves. Just like the situation today with the virus, etc.

I give leeway for doctors for not speaking out who were (and are) genuinely in error, or perhaps no longer curious enough to look for themselves and just take their colleagues on faith. After all, a doctor is a human being, not a god. But such a person is still just as wrong as otherwise and still aiding the corrupt situation.

Michael

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"Rational Individualist, Rational self-interest, Individual Rights--limited government libertarian heavily influenced by Objectivism," says Brant's text at the bottom.

I tried. Sigh. After my first Pfizer shot on Friday I felt a little cold and my arm was mildly sore, but now I am experiencing NO after affects and I get my second shot in a couple of weeks. And I will, with a sigh of relief. I will have a certified VA card saying I got my shots. I may even start going to the big box stores again. Peter  

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4 hours ago, william.scherk said:

Ready, set, citations!

I have no clue but I would guess 95 percent or more of the Doctors in the U.S. recommend getting the vaccine especially if you are older or have underlying problems. At first, when I heard of the normal symptoms I thought I would just wait it out but then I remembered how sick I was from the last time I got the flu. I have gotten the flu shot every year since then.

With the coronavirus different "varients?" seem to be emerging and if necessary I will get a booster shot too. Politics, anonymous sources, conspiracy theories, bone headedness, etc., should not influence an objectivist's rationality. Forrest Gump.   

edit. I will mention this again. President Trump got the vaccine. So should you. 

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3 minutes ago, Peter said:

I tried. Sigh. After my first Pfizer shot on Friday I felt a little cold and my arm was mildly sore, but now I am experiencing NO after affects and I get my second shot in a couple of weeks. And I will, with a sigh of relief. I will have a certified VA card saying I got my shots. I may even start going to the big box stores again. Peter  

Peter,

If this brings you comfort, I'm happy for you. And I don't blame you.

But that does not change the nature of this vaccine as not a traditional vaccine, the controversy surrounding it, the bad character of many of the the top people involved, the gobs of money at stake, nor does it turn those who question all this into fools and tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists.

We all come to the same fork in the road on this vaccine. Some take one road and others take the other.

Who is right? I'm sure humankind will find out.

Just not now...

(Also, I speak for myself, but I am sure others share my sentiment. I worry about you and want you to be safe. I would gladly be wrong if no harm came to you. If that ends up being the case, I probably still wouldn't take the shot, though. :) )

Michael

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11 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

If that ends up being the case, I probably still wouldn't take the shot, though. :) )

Thanks Michael. Once again. My mild reaction to the shot lasted two days. That's it. No other cost. I was a git worried so I bought a bottle of bourbon the day I got the shot and it saw me through the mild-ness. Ever try 'Elijah Craig' bourbon? It's a bit strong at 94 proof so drink it with some water and diet coke. Smack. That is my recipe. Peter

From The Mayo Clinic. Vaccines to prevent coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) are perhaps the best hope for ending the pandemic. But as the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) continues authorizing emergency use of COVID-19 vaccines, you likely have questions. Find out about the benefits of the COVID-19 vaccines, how they work, the possible side effects and the importance of continuing to take infection prevention steps . . . . What are the benefits of getting a COVID-19 vaccine? A COVID-19 vaccine might:

Prevent you from getting COVID-19 or from becoming seriously ill or dying due to COVID-19

Prevent you from spreading the COVID-19 virus to others

Add to the number of people in the community who are protected from getting COVID-19 — making it harder for the disease to spread and contributing to herd immunity

Prevent the COVID-19 virus from spreading and replicating, which allows it to mutate and possibly become more resistant to vaccines . . . . What are the possible side effects of a COVID-19 vaccine?

A COVID-19 vaccine can cause mild side effects after the first or second dose, including: Pain, redness or swelling where the shot was given, Fever

·         Fatigue

·         Headache

·         Muscle pain

·         Chills

·         Joint pain

·         Nausea and vomiting

·         Feeling unwell

·         Swollen lymph nodes

You'll likely be monitored for 15 minutes after getting a COVID-19 vaccine to see if you have an immediate reaction. Most side effects happen within the first three days after vaccination and typically last only one to two days.

A COVID-19 vaccine may cause side effects similar to signs and symptoms of COVID-19. If you've been exposed to COVID-19 and you develop symptoms more than three days after getting vaccinated or the symptoms last more than two days, self-isolate and get tested . . . .

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Texas and Mississippi decided to end mask mandates.

Biden was not amused. As he opened borders to let in countless illegal aliens with COVID-19 infection, he said the following about the Texas and Mississippi decisions:

Quote

The last thing we need is Neanderthal thinking...

See here and here.

And the experts?

What say they?

:)

Michael

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On 3/3/2021 at 12:24 PM, Peter said:

Reason leads me to think  the opposite. You are gullible and easily "fooled" into believing "claims" and not I. Ask any doctor if they recommend a Covid vaccine. I think you know what they will say. "Get it!" And I think somewhere within your line of thinking you have your doubts about denying the truth. You have been brainwashed.

Drs recommend it not because they see the affects of the "vaccine". But relief. Fear is the compelling factor, once sparked it can't be put out, not like fire. I will lie about it. What I see are eyes registering fear because I cant see disapproving faces. I'm going to lie because folks can be nazi like in their zeal for feeling protected. They don't ask for proof, they want submission. As long as I display submissive behavior its acceptable.

A couple of weeks ago I was early to pickleball. Lacrosse hadn't yet let out and as we assembled en masse suddenly I was called out for being mask-less. I ignored them until the most confident among them waved a mask in my face. Substituting my shirt was not enough. Its easily my favorite past time. I can't turn on them and I won't submit. Not to bs, and certainly not bullies. So for now I put a mask to my lips and discard it after 15 steps into the gym where surprisingly all masks come off. 25-30 heavily breathing mouths accept the concept of freedom for 2 hrs is more important than mandates. Those same folks then move to their cars in masks. Symbolism at its worst.

When asked its an array of concerns for others not themselves. Mostly abiding to "rules" when in public. I go everywhere the same way I always have. Early on 1 man commented "get away from my wife". I told him to shove it.

I put up with arbitrary rules, until I was 14, from a parent, a snake eater. A man who once likened children to mice in mazes. Unbelievable what these people get away while in medaled uniform. Its not dissimilar to how people react with Drs.

As news of 15 mandate free states travels (more than 25% now) folks register new feelings about their own lock down states. It will be based on envy, which is as bad as any other emotionally based argument. 

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