Peikoff on the Ground Zero Mosque

[Brant Gaede]

I made my last post over there on that thread and logged off. To be there to counter libel and slander is now a waste of time. It simply doesn't matter anymore.

--Brant

[Barbara Branden]

Great Suggestion of the Week:

Greg Gutsfeld of Fox's "Red Eye" suggested that in order to further spread the message of tolerance, understanding, and community, a gay bar be erected next door to the mosque :that is to rise near Ground Zero.

Barbara

[9thdoctor]

in order to further spread the message of tolerance, understanding, and community, a gay bar be erected next door

A really good idea, and for another neighbour I nominate the most non-Halal supermarket chain there is: Piggly Wiggly!

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Great Suggestion of the Week:

Greg Gutsfeld of Fox's "Red Eye" suggested that in order to further spread the message of tolerance, understanding, and community, a gay bar be erected next door to the mosque :that is to rise near Ground Zero.

Barbara,

LOL...

I really hope they don't build the thing, but if they do, this is a great suggestion.

And maybe a distribution channel for Hustler magazine, a Rap record label and studio, a foot-long hot dog stand, etc.

If this project is a symbol of arrogance (and I believe it is), let the people behind it run into the brick wall of reality of living in a free society where everyone has rights.

They either practice their religion within the context of freedom, or they move on.

If I had money leftover, I would invest in a gay bar next to that property. I hope other people feel as I do.

Michael

[Rich Engle]

The thing is about all these jocular proposals is that it could happen anyway--it's NYC, and that would be business-as-usual.

As to the other thing--bigots, yes--and not even very good at being llike that. Not even sufficiently-powered to be solid narcissists, or (mostly in their ringmaster's case) effective tent revival preachers. Yeah, that one there, sad as it is, there's a very un-Unitarian piece of me that hopes he just keeps on swilling it down, swilling it down. Eventually, it might disable him completely, providing the world with relief, or, create an alcoholic psychosis break--which might at least provide some temporary entertainment.

[9thdoctor]

I really hope they don't build the thing, but if they do, this is a great suggestion.

I don’t see how they can back down now. It would empower the bigots, giving them a victory.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Ninth Doctor

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

It would empower the bigots, giving them a victory.

Dennis,

The presumption here is that I believe there are no Muslim bigots and that maybe I side with them. There are plenty of Muslim bigots, though.

Here is the real issue. There are THREE ways to see the world, but bigots only see TWO.

Bigots see the world as US (good) and THEM (evil).

Period.

But there is a third category who is NEITHER.

I don't expect the world-view of NEITHER to penetrate into the minds of people committed to the false dichotomy.

I know I try to convey it, but it's often a losing intellectual battle.

But one thing is clear to me. I do not side with bigots. I loathe bigots on both sides. My side is the NEITHER category.

Michael

[Rich Engle]

So, blackhorse, is that to mean that any and all of our Muslim friends should be exterminated or interned? I know quite a few of them--upstanding, productive citizens with families who would not benefit from that. Where would that justice lie? The ones I speak of are 100% innocents, valued members of society, and loathe violence. Unless I have this wrong, I wonder why you cannot separate individual humans from theologies? This is a disconnect, and a large one.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Here is one thing that belonging to the NEITHER category allows me to do that the blind do not and cannot do.

It allows me to pursue connecting dots outside of the false dichotomy. Here are some examples.

I have been doing some reading on the Cordoba House and Feisal Abdul Rauf and I have already started seeing dots that go WAAAAAAAAAAAY beyond the Islam-evil All-Others-good perspective. As I wrote these words just now, I decided to make a check of Pamela Geller's site, Atlas Shrugs. Agree or disagree with her (she is too often over the top for my tastes), I have never known her to be sloppy with getting sources right. As she is on a campaign right now, her site is a good one for checking a reliable consolidated list of dirt on the anti-mosque project side. So I looked. Lo and behold, there is Glenn Beck right at the top, connecting his own dots. After watching the video, I see that I do not have to write most of what I was going to. Beck did it for me, and went further. Here is the video Pamela posted:

<object width="518" height="419"><param name="movie" value="http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/eyeblast.swf?v=hdnz8zZuQu" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/eyeblast.swf?v=hdnz8zZuQu" allowfullscreen="true" width="518" height="419" /></object>

That, I submit, is good dot-connecting. Unlike baiting Muslims with hate-speech.

Now here are a couple of dots I am connecting on my own.

To start with, Feisal Abdul Rauf, the force behind the Cordoba project, is a Sufi Muslim born in Kuwait. Sufis are actually Islamic peaceniks and Kuwait is not exactly a hotbed of terrorism. Seeing that, I started wondering what the yelling was about. But the more I now read on this guy, the more I suspect his heart is not in Sufism, even though he is an Imam. Add this to Beck's connecting him to the left-wing people beside Obama, the flotilla, etc., and I start seeing a usurpation of the Sufi denomination for political ends.

Everybody knows the Sunni and Shi'ite denominations have strong war-mongering elements in their histories. So what better way to sell an Islamic project to the American people than through the peace-loving branch of Islam? But there are those troubling indirect connections that just won't go away, especially to Hamas. So this is a bit like sending a Jehovah's Witness with indirect ties to a white supremacist group to build a huge Christian Church right next to the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. Something doesn't grok right.

There are now Sufis who are strongly speaking out against Rauf's project, so it is reasonable to suspect that his heart is with another denomination and that he has infiltrated the Sufis for politics. I might be wrong, but enough elements are present to suspect this.

Then there is the State Department sponsoring Rauf's whirlwind trip around the Islamic world, with the obligatory stop right in Wahhabi-land, Saudi Arabia. This is where the majority of funding for hardline Muslim schools throughout the world comes from. You don't need to be the world's greatest genius to add:

1. The Cordoba project needs $100 million to be built, and

2. The Wahhabis have oodles of cash and they like to put it into building Muslim centers in other countries,

and come out with the notion that it is a good chance that Saudi Arabia is where the money is going to come from. (And that the Sufi doctrines that Rauf preaches might suffer some slight shifts as he goes along.)

Now here's an interesting point. I notice that Shi'ite-land, Iran, is not on Rauf's itinerary. And I notice that the Saudis are clearing Israel to strike Iran if they decide to.

Hmmmmmm...

I see some big honking dots that need connecting. I don't know where they lead to, but there are some really strange alignments going on over this matter.

For instance, I wonder what the value of a Saudi Arabian funded mosque at Ground Zero would have in staying a unilateral Muslim outcry throughout the world if the USA attacks Iran (more likely when).

In other words, it seems to someone like me that there are several powerful interests at play and they are all playing each other.

Another thing. You don't get to be President without knowing how to stage a media circus. You get everybody yelling about--and focused on--something like a symbol while you are left in peace to do some real damage elsewhere. You can legitimately call Obama many things, but media-stupid is not one of them.

And I wonder about Mayor Bloomberg's staunch position. Does New York get a lot of federal funding?

Hmmmmmmmm...

But I don't think this stuff will be on the radar of the folks who think Islam is a single thing and one thing only--the source of all evil.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Rich,

I just deleted blackhorse's post (the one you responded to) where he claims Islam wants to conquer the world and kill us all if we don't convert.

Islam is a body of ideas, not a human being. Only Muslims "want."

Since Muslims, by definition, follow Islam, it follows that the statement "Islam wants to kill us all" means "all Muslims want to kill us all." And ditto for the rest.

No... I'll do better. here is the exact quote from blackhorse:

"islam demands submission and will stop at nothing to achieve the entire conversion or death of every man, woman, and child."

That means "all Muslims demand submission and will stop at nothing to achieve the entire conversion or death of every man, woman, and child."

And that's bigoted crap.

I meant it about bigotry. I will not stand for it here. Let bigots take their bigotry elsewhere. There is a big huge Internet out there.

I don't want to do this stuff or moderate blackhorse, but I will if that shit keeps up.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

On a lighter note, here is MONDAY'S GREGALOGUE: MY NEW GAY BAR by Greg Gutfeld. It appears he might just go through with this project. I hope he does.

So, the Muslim investors championing the construction of the new mosque near Ground Zero claim it's all about strengthening the relationship between the Muslim and non-Muslim world.

As an American, I believe they have every right to build the mosque - after all, if they buy the land and they follow the law - who can stop them?

Which is, why, in the spirit of outreach, I've decided to do the same thing.

I'm announcing tonight, that I am planning to build and open the first gay bar that caters not only to the west, but also Islamic gay men. To best express my sincere desire for dialogue, the bar will be situated next to the mosque Park51, in an available commercial space.

This is not a joke. I've already spoken to a number of investors, who have pledged their support in this bipartisan bid for understanding and tolerance.

As you know, the Muslim faith doesn't look kindly upon homosexuality, which is why I'm building this bar. It is an effort to break down barriers and reduce deadly homophobia in the Islamic world.

The goal, however, is not simply to open a typical gay bar, but one friendly to men of Islamic faith. An entire floor, for example, will feature non-alcoholic drinks, since booze is forbidden by the faith. The bar will be open all day and night, to accommodate men who would rather keep their sexuality under wraps - but still want to dance.

Bottom line: I hope that the mosque owners will be as open to the bar, as I am to the new mosque. After all, the belief driving them to open up their center near Ground Zero, is no different than mine.

My place, however, will have better music.

For investment information, contact me at dailygut.com

And he adds:

And remember, kids, I'm dead serious on this one. (You can tell by the lack of humor in this particular piece).

I endorse this 100%.

That's how it's done in a free society. Let the individual choose and be offered choices by those individuals who choose to offer them.

Michael

[Robert Campbell]

Sa'udi Arabia would have to be an important stop on a tour to raise $100M for an Islamic center.

If it gets built and the prayer space is painted hospital white all over—no pretty tiles or arabesques—no need for further investigation. We'll know where the money came from.

Robert Campbell

[blackhorse]

Michael, maybe you can name a muslim dominated nation that respects freedom of religion and thought (and rights of women). To what degree will you defend islamic irrationality?

Edited August 11, 2010 by blackhorse

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

To what degree will you defend islamic irrationality?

blackhorse,

When this kind of crap stops, we can discuss things. I do not defend "islamic irrationality." I never have and I never will.

Read my posts for proof.

You will not intimidate me or anyone on this board into becoming a bigot with false accusations like that.

Michael

[Robert Campbell]

Here's a short piece on Imam Abdul Rauf's tour of the Persian Gulf states, sponsored by the State Department.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/0810/Imams_Gulf_tour_sparks_controversy.html

Supposedly he won't be raising any money for Cordoba House during the trip.

Robert Campbell

[Rich Engle]

MSK- I don't blame you at all. But just remember when you're dealing with that kind of thinking--sometimes it is not so bad to leave it out in the sunlight--it tends to not flourish in bright places and eventually withers.

No disrespect, blackhorse, but this is just hateful thinking. It is religious stereotyping. There are all kinds of rotten groups of people in the world that misuse spiritual and philosophical systems. Faith traditions are practiced by the living, and many of those practicioners are out to change hatefulness, any kind. Others are not. This is a general trouble, not just with Islam. Unfortunately, they are going through one of their very dark moments.

Holy Scriptures (especially those in the three main Abrahamic religions) have suffered all manner of misuse and mistranslation. But the beauty is in there.

And your talk in this area makes you no better than any other person practicing bigotry or hate-talk. You might consider that.

rde

[9thdoctor]

It would empower the bigots, giving them a victory.

The presumption here is that I believe there are no Muslim bigots and that maybe I side with them. There are plenty of Muslim bigots, though.

I fail to grok. The bigots I meant are the ones trying to stop the Cordoba House by invoking bigotry. I don’t deny that there are Muslim bigots too.

name a muslim dominated nation that respects freedom of religion and thought (and rights of women)

By Muslim-dominated do you mean a theocracy? Can you name any theocracy in history that passes your test? Or will you include Turkey and Indonesia in the set? They're not perfect either, but a Huguenot would probably do better there (now) than in the France of Louis XIV (BTW, also not a theocracy). Women too.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Dennis,

I think I misunderstood. Sorry.

Michael

[Barbara Branden]

The most important thing said about the proposed mosque is that its creation would not be a religious act, it would be a political act.

Barbara

[Mike Renzulli]

I don't like many facets of THE PATRIOT ACT but now believe, overall, we need it in order to combat terrorism. I also bounced the idea of restricting the ability of facilities for cults being built or being able to exist off of Edward Cline on Facebook and he gave a very good response.

He stated that people join cults of their own volition (which is true) and that no Scientologist or Moonie has ever flown a jet airliner into a skyscraper nor made it a point to conduct a suicide bombing.

He went on to point out that children born and raised in Muslim environments literally become Muslims for life and their ability of volition is crushed. Despite being irrational, cult religions (like the Moonies and Scientologists) are not aggressive beligerent creeds and are not a threat to this country.

I largely agree with his point and can understand the logic behind his reasoning on Islam itself. Fortunately, despite assurances of death if one leaves, many people DO leave Islam and nothing ever happens to them. However, I am sure Muslims who leave the faith are largely concentrated in western countries and those who do want to leave Islam in countries where it is prominent are discouraged from doing so or are severely punished.

There is a real problem when you grant an enormous amount of power to the government, no matter how just or protective that power may seem at the time.

It's called the leader who comes afterward.

Does anyone really think the Patriot Act in the hands of President Obama is a good idea? People should take a look at what he is doing with all that power. His record is far worse than Bush's.

Now there's a clamor to the government to demonize an entire class of people. "You can take some of our freedoms, just make us safe. And, please, take all of their freedoms (if Americans)." That is the subtext I keep seeing over and over. Even Peikoff is clamoring like that.

Does anyone really think it's a good idea for the government to do this?

I don't.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Michael,

If I understand you correctly, you want a benevolent dictator to keep you safe, and you willingly forfeit many of your individual rights to him for this. Not only that, you take your chances that the next person in power will be likewise a benevolent dictator instead of a brutal one in order to have safety now.

Is that correct?

I don't hold this view. (You really should see some of the stuff that has been going on under Obama's administration based on the Patriot Act. I have read that there have been even more extraordinary renditions than under Bush, although I would have to confirm that. Also, more people have been arrested. It's ugly.)

As to Cline's statements about Muslims, he knows nothing about them. The comments you report show that clearly.

You really should examine the Nazi influence on parts of the Islamic world. Wherever you see the real evil, there you will find Nazi leftovers. I don't know why people keep ignoring this, but they do. They prefer to point the finger at all Muslims and say that the content of their character is equal to that of the ones who practice Nazi doctrines. Any examination of reality shows that this is simply not true. Go to where Muslims are and use your own eyes.

Don't let the Cline's of the world tell you that all Muslims are this or that. He's a hater and wants to remake reality to conform to how he understands Rand. She said philosophy rules character, so he finds the easiest philosophy to point a finger at and does some of the most collectivist thinking you will find on earth. It's a wrong way to think if rational individualism is your basis. It's a great way to think for emotional collectivists, though.

Bigotry it easy to teach and easy to preach. Observing reality is a bit harder, but a whole lot more accurate. People are individuals, not collectives.They only do bad collective stuff when they get lathered up, and there are specific things that cause that. Just saying "Islam" does not come anywhere near to identifying such causes. But to understand the causes, you have to think, not just take the words of some bigot and run with them.

If you insist on using your own eyes, it is not easy to maintain bigotry inside yourself. If you choose to see the world through the eyes of another, it's easy. And I'm not saying you have to agree with me to not be a bigot. If you see Muslims firsthand and conclude with your own mind that all the Muslims you have seen are nasty folks who do not deserve to live, I would be very interested in seeing what you see.

At least you see that Cline's "once a Muslim always a Muslim" and "all Muslims have no volition" is not true. You are "sure" that those who leave Islam are mostly in the west, but you are basically speculating. It would be more accurate to say "I speculate" instead of "I am sure." (And you might be surprised if you actually go to certain Islamic countries.)

Here is something for your own eyes, and it is just the tip of the iceberg. Warning. It doesn't have anything to do with deducing reality from Randian principles or hating, for that matter (although the Nazi doctrines should be despised). You actually have to read historical stuff and use your own judgment. But once you see it, you wonder what in hell people are doing. Even here in O-Land. They are playing at reality when the danger and the solution is right there in front of them.

The site: Tell Children the Truth.

Michael

[blackhorse]

Just out of curiosity, does Christianity get the same defense at OL that islam does?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

blackhorse,

Do you still beat your wife?

Your question falls into that category of presumptuousness.

Michael

[anthony]

Michael and Mike,

When the Patriot Act was passed I felt my heart sink.

This was not the America (and definitely not Rand's America) that I thought I knew so well.

It was the first step on a slippery slope.

If we are going to defeat our foes - our true foes - with better ideas, one such idea is "The USA",with the accompanying idea "Business as usual".

Not the most horrifying attack should have shaken that.

Pardon me preaching back at you via one of your own,and someone who knew this well:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security, will deserve neither, and lose both." (Benjamin Franklin)

Tony

[blackhorse]

Michael, have you taken the time to read the daily news stories that JihadWatch posts to its website? Not ALL muslims are evil - but islamic doctrine cannot be separated from the islamists who pursue their murder and thuggery against other individuals. A philosophy cannot act by itself since it is only an idea - it requires a man to carry out its content.

Edited August 12, 2010 by blackhorse