If you ever decided to leave the USA, where would you go?

[Brant Gaede]

BaalChatzaf-

Contrary to your previous claims, USSR did fight Japan in China in Aug 1945. The Japanese forces were defeated and Manchuria taken very quickly, and Japan considered this entry of USSR into war as relevant as the Hiroshima+Nagasaki bombings in the timing of the surrender.

The UK invading Argentina would have killed millions of Brits. It's a good thing Maggie avoided that by nuking Buenos Aires back in '82! And that US invasion of the Soviet Union would have been awful; it was to have killed every US male between 19 and 90, and been the equivalent of at least 12,000(!) Normandys! We're blessed that such horrendous casualties were avoided by nuclear annihilation of the Russkies to end the Cold War.

Nevermind arguing your unsupported forecasts about deaths, you're still touting the same false dichotomy. You're also ignoring the military views concerning surrender, invasion, etc. "Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

---

I wrote most of this response earlier, and just saw your poison gas thread and advocacy of genocide in war. I'd given you the benefit of the doubt based on MSK's words, but now consider you at best simply a troll.

Aaron

The utter fanaticism with which the Japanese fought in Okinowa disproves your claim. Their soldiers fought to the death. Very few were alive to surrender. Keep in mind Okinowa was a suburb. When we got to the home islands not only the soldiers would fight us, but every able bodied man and woman would have fought using sharpened bamboo spears if necessary. How do you defeat an enemy like that? You either break their spirit or you kill them. That is what our successful nuclear attack did. It broke the spirit of the Emperor. Once he threw in the towel his people obeyed him and surrendered. That is how one beats the crazies.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Now class, why was the United States at war with Japan?

--Brant

[algernonsidney]

Ba'al Chatzaf

In summary, what you are telling me is that you think you know more about this situation that McArthur and Eisenhower knew at the time.

"I was against it on two counts. First, the Japanese were ready to surrender, and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing. Second, I hated to see our country be the first to use such a weapon." --Eisenhower

[algernonsidney]

The utter fanaticism with which the Japanese fought in Okinowa disproves your claim. Their soldiers fought to the death. Very few were alive to surrender. Keep in mind Okinowa was a suburb. When we got to the home islands not only the soldiers would fight us, but every able bodied man and woman would have fought using sharpened bamboo spears if necessary. How do you defeat an enemy like that? You either break their spirit or you kill them. That is what our successful nuclear attack did. It broke the spirit of the Emperor. Once he threw in the towel his people obeyed him and surrendered. That is how one beats the crazies.

My brother and my father were both on Okinawa. They both told me that the people there do not consider themselves Japanese. They both told me that the Okinawans hate the Japanese.

[algernonsidney]

If Joe Biden and all the Senators want to give Netanyahu a blow job, they can all go right ahead and do it. I have better things to do...

If that is going to be your level of discourse, then please go do whatever it is you have to do somewhere else.

Can you come up with a more accurate metaphor?

[algernonsidney]

Chris,

Also, I consider Prime Minister Netanyahu to be an honorable man. His brother Yonatan died fighting terrorist thugs at Entebbe.

I knew that. It was in one of the world's major hellholes--Uganda.

The spectacle of the US trying to lecture Israel about peace or about dealing with terrorists is laughable. I do think Israel should stop spying on us and such efforts are pushy and in bad faith.

So do I.

Netanyahu is first and foremost a politician. He has worked in government for the past 25 years at least. How many people who work in government for that long are honorable? I can think of one--Ron Paul.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Chris Baker

[algernonsidney]

So I gave, on a regular basis, to a Jewish organization (American Jewish World Services)which seems to concentrate on economically helping individuals become producers in one way or another.

They have an excellent rating from Charity Navigator. One of the first things I look at is how much money they spend on "administration" and "overhead."

[algernonsidney]

We need to keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of madmen, like those in Iran. Those who deny the holocaust want to create another one. We need to stand by Israel.

We've already failed at keeping nuclear weapons out of the hands of madmen. Truman had them.

Then Stalin had them.

You prevent genocides by fighting the ideas that cause them. Many of the genocides of the 20th century were caused by socialism. I naturally wonder how Israel can find consistency with its own socialism and their alleged dislike of genocide.

To their credit, Israel does one important thing to prevent genocide. They encourage people to own weapons of self-defense against criminals. These weapons can also be used against murderous thugs from the "government." When everybody has a gun, a genocide is impossible.

[James Heaps-Nelson]

We need to keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of madmen, like those in Iran. Those who deny the holocaust want to create another one. We need to stand by Israel.

We've already failed at keeping nuclear weapons out of the hands of madmen. Truman had them.

Then Stalin had them.

You prevent genocides by fighting the ideas that cause them. Many of the genocides of the 20th century were caused by socialism. I naturally wonder how Israel can find consistency with its own socialism and their alleged dislike of genocide.

To their credit, Israel does one important thing to prevent genocide. They encourage people to own weapons of self-defense against criminals. These weapons can also be used against murderous thugs from the "government." When everybody has a gun, a genocide is impossible.

Untrue. If Iran gets the bomb it may not matter how many guns the Israelis have.

Jim

[algernonsidney]

We need to keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of madmen, like those in Iran. Those who deny the holocaust want to create another one. We need to stand by Israel.

We've already failed at keeping nuclear weapons out of the hands of madmen. Truman had them.

Then Stalin had them.

You prevent genocides by fighting the ideas that cause them. Many of the genocides of the 20th century were caused by socialism. I naturally wonder how Israel can find consistency with its own socialism and their alleged dislike of genocide.

To their credit, Israel does one important thing to prevent genocide. They encourage people to own weapons of self-defense against criminals. These weapons can also be used against murderous thugs from the "government." When everybody has a gun, a genocide is impossible.

Untrue. If Iran gets the bomb it may not matter how many guns the Israelis have.

Jim

Israel has it as well. I don't think the Iranians are stupid enough to start a nuclear war with Israel.

I also don't think they would start one with this country.

The only time nuclear weapons have been used is when one country had them and the other country did hot have them.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Chris Baker

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

The problem is a steady supply of dirty bombs getting into the hands of terrorists, not formal war.

Michael

[James Heaps-Nelson]

The problem is a steady supply of dirty bombs getting into the hands of terrorists, not formal war.

Michael

Michael,

Exactly. Israel's unilateral possession of the bomb in the Middle East or ambiguity about it prevents its neighbors from doing anything more than low to middle scale suicide bombing.

Jim

[dan2100]

The problem is a steady supply of dirty bombs getting into the hands of terrorists, not formal war.

Michael

But dirty bombs are a much smaller problem and don't require as much effort. You also don't need to go the route of making actual nuclear weapons to make dirty bombs. So why attract international attention with a nuclear program if you just want to make dirty bombs? They're more a scare weapon than anything else. (What's actually surprising is how few incidents of using any NBC (Nuclear Biological Chemical) weapons by terrorists there have been. Were I to be completely ignorant and told about terrorism and NBC weapons, I'd actually predict a high rate of usage -- at least, of chemical weapons, which seem to be, as one commentator called them, "The poor man's H-bomb.")

Also, a problem with a "steady supply" of them is that that could easily be traced back to a source. My guess is any source of such would want almost total control over their use because of this. This is, I believe, why you don't see Pakistan handing out such weapons to, say, insurgents in Kashmir.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

My guess is any source of such would want almost total control over their use...

Dan,

That's about right.

How about antagonizing The Great Satan and The Little Satan enough to bring about the end-of-times chaos?

Dirty bombs are a temptation for someone with that bent. As we see with suicide bombers, Islamist fundies are pretty good at controlling those poor brainwashed people.

As in "total" controlling them.

Michael

[dan2100]

My guess is any source of such would want almost total control over their use...

Dan,

That's about right.

How about antagonizing The Great Satan and The Little Satan enough to bring about the end-of-times chaos?

It seems, despite this rhetoric, that the Iranian elite hasn't done much to actually make a go at it. Might that be because they, too, want to survive?

Dirty bombs are a temptation for someone with that bent. As we see with suicide bombers, Islamist fundies are pretty good at controlling those poor brainwashed people.

As in "total" controlling them.

This might be so, though my guess is suicide bombers are likely to always remain a small subset of any population. The problem of dirty bombs, though, is that any nation state putting out a supply of them for terrorists is going to have to worry about retaliation. This might be why we don't see dirty bombs now. After all, and again, you don't need much technology or investment to make a dirty bomb -- just some readily available things that can explode and some radioactive material. The amount of the latter can be really small as a dirty bomb is not about the amount of radioactivity, but merely spreading fear of it.

My guess is, too, if the Iranians wanted to put out a big stream of dirty bombs just to hand over to terrorists and didn't care about retaliation, they'd have already done it. They certainly have enough radioactive material to do this. (My guess, too, is many nations have enough material to do this.) Yet we don't see this. So how do you explain that?

[Martin Radwin]

My guess is any source of such would want almost total control over their use...

Dan,

That's about right.

How about antagonizing The Great Satan and The Little Satan enough to bring about the end-of-times chaos?

Dirty bombs are a temptation for someone with that bent. As we see with suicide bombers, Islamist fundies are pretty good at controlling those poor brainwashed people.

As in "total" controlling them.

Michael

The U.S. has more than its share of end-of-times Christian fundies. And I'm quite sure that no shortage of these are in the U.S. military, which has been shown to have strong ties to Christian fundamentalism. This kind of thing tends to be encouraged in all militaries, since there's no better way to turn your soldiers into an efficient killing machine than to convince them that God is on their side and that the enemy are tools of Satan.

Does it ever occur to those who worry about Islamic fundies gaining control of nuclear weapons that Christian fundies may just gain control of and think about using our nuclear weapons? George W. Bush was, after all, a born again Christian.

Martin

[dan2100]

Dan,

That's about right.

How about antagonizing The Great Satan and The Little Satan enough to bring about the end-of-times chaos?

Dirty bombs are a temptation for someone with that bent. As we see with suicide bombers, Islamist fundies are pretty good at controlling those poor brainwashed people.

As in "total" controlling them.

Michael

The U.S. has more than its share of end-of-times Christian fundies. And I'm quite sure that no shortage of these are in the U.S. military, which has been shown to have strong ties to Christian fundamentalism. This kind of thing tends to be encouraged in all militaries, since there's no better way to turn your soldiers into an efficient killing machine than to convince them that God is on their side and that the enemy are tools of Satan.

Does it ever occur to those who worry about Islamic fundies gaining control of nuclear weapons that Christian fundies may just gain control of and think about using our nuclear weapons? George W. Bush was, after all, a born again Christian.

Martin

It's also true that they [Christian fundamentalists] have far more of an influence over our society than their numbers -- they're a small minority -- would otherwise reveal. Think of how, e.g., evolution is basically not taught in government schools. (I'm not arguing in favor of a particular idea to be taught in government schools. Instead, as you know, I'd like to see such schools abolished. But my point is that Christian fundamentalists who are most vocal about keep evolution out of government school classrooms have been successful despite being a minority. This is even so in schools outside the so called Bible Belt.)

[BaalChatzaf]

It's also true that they [Christian fundamentalists] have far more of an influence over our society than their numbers -- they're a small minority -- would otherwise reveal. Think of how, e.g., evolution is basically not taught in government schools. (I'm not arguing in favor of a particular idea to be taught in government schools. Instead, as you know, I'd like to see such schools abolished. But my point is that Christian fundamentalists who are most vocal about keep evolution out of government school classrooms have been successful despite being a minority. This is even so in schools outside the so called Bible Belt.)

But they don't succeed everywhere outside the Bible Belt or even everywhere in the Bible Belt. The Creationists are a pain, but they are not a show stopper. You will note that they got stopped cold in Dover PA. The real problem is that science and mathematics are generally not well taught anywhere in the lower grades. I weep for the Republic.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[dan2100]

It's also true that they [Christian fundamentalists] have far more of an influence over our society than their numbers -- they're a small minority -- would otherwise reveal. Think of how, e.g., evolution is basically not taught in government schools. (I'm not arguing in favor of a particular idea to be taught in government schools. Instead, as you know, I'd like to see such schools abolished. But my point is that Christian fundamentalists who are most vocal about keep evolution out of government school classrooms have been successful despite being a minority. This is even so in schools outside the so called Bible Belt.)

But they don't succeed everywhere outside the Bible Belt or even everywhere in the Bible Belt. The Creationists are a pain, but they are not a show stopper. You will note that they got stopped cold in Dover PA. The real problem is that science and mathematics are generally not well taught anywhere in the lower grades. I weep for the Republic.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I'm not talking so much about teaching Creationism as in getting it to be that evolution does not get taught. And my point was more about how for a small minority, such people have a big impact. (My experience here, which might not be typical, is we had one short film in class on evolution with little discussion afterward and no further mention of it by the biology teacher in class. This is like the central big theory of biology. I'm not saying, though, that the class should have been turned into "Evolutionary Biology 101.")

Martin's speculation, too, about their influence in the military rings true to me, though I'd like to see some stats. Don't you find it a bit frightening that there are people high in government and the military of a nation with a huge stockpile of nuclear weapons believe that the Book Revelation is literally true? These are people who might not mind using that arsenal and might even believe it's their duty to do so. Yet all the talk here seems to center on the remote possibility of religious nuts in other countries getting a dirty bomb -- not on the religious nuts here getting their hands on the biggest nuclear arsenal on the planet.

This seems to me, too, like those people who live in some small town in America who are unlikely to ever see a terrorist worrying about Al Qaeda coming to get them while gestapo-style police raids take place in their neighborhood. I mean it lacks perspective and seems irrational.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Dan Ust

[BaalChatzaf]

You are most likely correct that the theory of evolution is not taught in very great detail in spite of the fact it is central to all biological theory. But quantum theory (or a simplification thereof) is barely taught at all in high school physics courses. Most of what is taught in high school is classical physics with some Maxwell electrodynamics. Physics which requires calculus is barely taught in high school except to advanced placement students.

Most of our high-school students enter college ignorant of the essentials of scientific theory and hypothesis test to say nothing of the technical details. This is not do the influence of creationist to be best of my knowledge. We miss the boat in teaching both biology and the more physical sciences.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[sbeaulieu]

I'd like to see stats on the so called Christian fundamentalists within the military. In my experience, day-to-day dialogues are not rife with religious subjects. I've never had a pep talk about God being on our side or the enemy being Satan.

Aside from that, there are too many checks and balances when it comes to the US nuclear arsenal. The little slip a couple years ago with the nuclear-armed bomber didn't go unnoticed and some high-level brass got the axe. So I seriously doubt a religious nut is going to get very far in employing nukes to bring about Armageddon.

~ Shane

Edited April 15, 2010 by sbeaulieu

[James Heaps-Nelson]

You are most likely correct that the theory of evolution is not taught in very great detail in spite of the fact it is central to all biological theory. But quantum theory (or a simplification thereof) is barely taught at all in high school physics courses. Most of what is taught in high school is classical physics with some Maxwell electrodynamics. Physics which requires calculus is barely taught in high school except to advanced placement students.

Most of our high-school students enter college ignorant of the essentials of scientific theory and hypothesis test to say nothing of the technical details. This is not do the influence of creationist to be best of my knowledge. We miss the boat in teaching both biology and the more physical sciences.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Bob,

Absolutely! The education credentialing system in this country basically weeds out most subject matter experts from teaching in our schools.

Also, I find the great books educational emphasis of many Objectivists at the expense of higher level physics, chemistry, biology and advanced mathematics to be mystifying.

Jim

[dan2100]

You are most likely correct that the theory of evolution is not taught in very great detail in spite of the fact it is central to all biological theory. But quantum theory (or a simplification thereof) is barely taught at all in high school physics courses. Most of what is taught in high school is classical physics with some Maxwell electrodynamics. Physics which requires calculus is barely taught in high school except to advanced placement students.

Most of our high-school students enter college ignorant of the essentials of scientific theory and hypothesis test to say nothing of the technical details. This is not do the influence of creationist to be best of my knowledge. We miss the boat in teaching both biology and the more physical sciences.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I disagree in regards to evolution. I think Christian fundamentalists -- I did not introduce "Creationist" here; you did -- have done their best to keep evolution out of the classroom. (Putting Creationism in is another story and one I didn't raise here.) Granted, had they not done so, it's likely government schools across America would still be teaching watered down, decades old theories about evolution -- the equivalent of how physics is taught at that level.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

There's way too much blind speculation to make a case for ignoring Iran gettig nukes.

Maybe they want to survive?

I have no doubt many Iranians want to. I'm not so sure about the Twelvers in power. They serve a "higher" authority than earthly life. In fact, the earthly life of everyone on the planet, themselves includes, is nothing but a means for the recreation and plans of that "higher" authority, and they devoutly believe they know what those plans are. Death (both killing and dying) is simply not an issue for them.

Why hasn't a dirty bomb been detonated in an act of terrorism yet?

Beats me. I suspect our secret services across the globe cooperate more than they let on, but I can't say for sure. I do know this. The fact that a disaster involving highly irrational and brutal dictators has not yet happened is not proof that it will not happen. This is a serious threat and it is foolish to ignore it.

If you give a bully a bigger stick than the one he has, he will beat you with it. This has been borne out time and time again in history. If a person tries to kill folks with a knife, if he gets his hands on a gun, he will try to kill folks with that gun.

Does anyone doubt that the Iranian government is a bully?

Even with all the shortcomings in the USA government culture, do we have anythying similar to Iran's Fountain of Blood near the Behesht-e-Zahra cemetery in Tehran? Granted, it was only red colored water and I believe it is no longer running the "blood" (although I am not sure), but this is where Khomeini is buried. It's pretty reasonable to be creeped out by this and take extreme caution with people who think this is cool.

Another point.

I don't like fundies, whether Islamist or Christian militia type (or Objectivist, for that matter). I think they are dangerous when they get access to mass destruction capabilities.

I don't like Bush, either. I have made that clear too often to keep repeating it. He is religious, but he is no fundy. He is a statist. His defense policies kept us from another terrorist attack like 9/11, but he also increased government power, trampled the Constitution in increasingly creative ways, and made several very foolish high-impact decisions.

Michael

[Martin Radwin]

There's way too much blind speculation to make a case for ignoring Iran gettig nukes.

Maybe they want to survive?

I have no doubt many Iranians want to. I'm not so sure about the Twelvers in power. They serve a "higher" authority than earthly life. In fact, the earthly life of everyone on the planet, themselves includes, is nothing but a means for the recreation and plans of that "higher" authority, and they devoutly believe they know what those plans are. Death (both killing and dying) is simply not an issue for them.

Are you really so certain of this? How closely have you studied the lives and belief systems of the Iranian ruling clique? Have their actions indicated that they are indifferent about their own lives and would welcome death?

On the other hand, everything you say here may also be applied to at least some christian fundamentalist believers in the Book of Revelations who are eagerly awaiting the end times and the return of Jesus. A fundamental aspect of Christianity (though undoubtedly not emphasized equally by all Christians) is a belief in an eternal afterlife, spent either in heaven or in hell. Such a belief certainly devalues the importance of life on earth relative to the eternal life that is to follow. Anyone believing such a thing may very well not fear death at all but instead look forward to death as an opportunity to spend eternity in heaven side by side with Jesus. These considerations may also apply to fundamentalist muslims. But I'm not sure there's a good reason to fear such an outlook among muslims but not among christians. And American christians have access to a far more lethal arsenal of weapons that anything that Iran has.

Why hasn't a dirty bomb been detonated in an act of terrorism yet?

Beats me. I suspect our secret services across the globe cooperate more than they let on, but I can't say for sure. I do know this. The fact that a disaster involving highly irrational and brutal dictators has not yet happened is not proof that it will not happen. This is a serious threat and it is foolish to ignore it.

If you give a bully a bigger stick than the one he has, he will beat you with it. This has been borne out time and time again in history. If a person tries to kill folks with a knife, if he gets his hands on a gun, he will try to kill folks with that gun.

Does anyone doubt that the Iranian government is a bully?

Does anyone doubt that the U.S. government is a bully? Considering the number of nations invaded and the number of foreigners killed by both the Iranian and U.S. governments, such a comparison does not make the U.S. government look very good.

Even with all the shortcomings in the USA government culture, do we have anythying similar to Iran's Fountain of Blood near the Behesht-e-Zahra cemetery in Tehran? Granted, it was only red colored water and I believe it is no longer running the "blood" (although I am not sure), but this is where Khomeini is buried. It's pretty reasonable to be creeped out by this and take extreme caution with people who think this is cool.

It's ironic the way so many Americans are creeped out by such ritual displays. It's like the way so many Americans were horrified by a handful of beheadings committing by Islamic wackos, or by suicide bombings by insurgents. These people must be barbarians to commit such attrocities! Yet the same Americans react with indifference or even support for "Shock and Awe", for American planes dropping bombs from thousands of feet above the ground, or the use of unmanned drones targeting the skies of Pakistan and firing missiles, killing masses of innocent civilians on the ground. They are barbarians for the savage manner in which they kill their enemies. But we're civilized. We kill thousands using the latest high tech weaponry.

Another point.

I don't like fundies, whether Islamist or Christian militia type (or Objectivist, for that matter). I think they are dangerous when they get access to mass destruction capabilities.

I don't like Bush, either. I have made that clear too often to keep repeating it. He is religious, but he is no fundy. He is a statist. His defense policies kept us from another terrorist attack like 9/11, but he also increased government power, trampled the Constitution in increasingly creative ways, and made several very foolish high-impact decisions.

Michael

And how exactly do you know that Bush's defense policies kept us from another terrorist attack like 9/11? This is purely speculative. It's not like we can go back into history, follow a different policy, and see what happens. All we know is that another terrorist attack of this scale did not happen. We have no way of knowing the reason. But there are very good reasons to extrapolate into the future that a continuation of existing U.S. foreign policy is creating a whole new generation of potential terrorists that should increase the likelihood that the U.S. will be the victim of another 9/11 style terrorist attack.

Martin

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

And how exactly do you know that Bush's defense policies kept us from another terrorist attack like 9/11? This is purely speculative. It's not like we can go back into history, follow a different policy, and see what happens. All we know is that another terrorist attack of this scale did not happen. We have no way of knowing the reason.

Martin,

I have no way to discuss your comments with any seriousness on the level of the above quote. It sounds way too agenda-driven, so I will stop for now.

Michael