With My Own Eyes 1: Mormonism

[Danneskjold]

With My Own Eyes 1: Mormonism

by Jeff Kremer

I have recently decided to go to a series of religious gatherings (churches and the like) for the sake of learning. I'll be posting my observations of each religion here. All my observations will be based on the premise set by the group. By that I mean that if they say there is one God and his nature is like this, I will assume that is true and look and see if that fits or does not fit the actions that God displays. Please note that I am not doing a long term study on each religion but getting a brief synapsis of it.

Today I went to a mormon church with my friend Katie. What I observed is below:

When I first arrived at the church, I immediatly noticed that it was quite orthodox and set up much the same as the Catholic churches I used to go to on Christmas Eve. Their was the pulpit, to the left of it was the list of hymns scheduled to be sung, in front of it was a pew of men and women who were heads of different levels of the church or were scheduled to speak. To the right was a pew of four boys who I later learned were there to prepare sacrament, the equivalent of communion.

Sacrament itself was a very militaristic ordeal, two rows of our boys each stood up, waited and grabbed one tray of bread each. One row left, the other row stepped up to recieve theirs. They proceeded down the rows with military precision, they handed off the tray, and stood like soldiers until it came back on the other side. It all seemed quite bizarre to me to see kids no older than me moving with military precision over something like sacrament. I guess it's a difference in what I am used to in a non-denominational church.

The time spent at church is split into three major segments, one hour a piece. Segment one is like any other church. You get talked to, you sing hymns, and there are a few general announcements. The second segment is a lax group learning. Something like traditional Sunday School. Kids split up into groups based on age, which is problematic when you get a bunch of kids in one area (non-objective side note: especially when they're a bunch of sexually oppressed adolescents). In any case, we didn't learn anything for that hour. The third hour is split by gender. Men in one room, women in another. That group is then further divided into smaller sub-groups by age. Talks are about things that are gender specific. The value of a good family and being, amongst other things, a strong man in Christ.

Mormonism believes in the Christian, Jewish, and Islamic God. The one benign being ruling over all of the earth in a caring way. They take steps, in the Book of Mormon and many their teachings, to explain various things that the Bible leaves out and I would say they do a pretty fair job. Things that they attempt to explain in the Book of Mormon that the Bible does not explain are such things as why were we sent to earth in the first place? What was the exact nature of the split off between God and Satan, and states clearly how Heaven and Hell operate.

According to Mormonism, everybody started in heaven with God as just a spirit. This is why they came up with the "Plan of Salvation" or "Plan of Happiness". This plan was designed to give all spirits bodies, make them overcome challenges, and give them eternal salvation for any transgressions they may have committed in the process of doing these things. First, God met with his higher-ups. This includes Jesus, Lucifer, and many of the higher ranking angels. Two plans were brought to the table, one by Jesus one by Lucifer who was then the head angel. Jesus' plan was accepted over Lucifer's, nothing specific is really mentioned except that Lucifer wanted all the credit while Jesus wanted to give it to God. Because Jesus' plan was accepted Lucifer decided to separate from God. His purpose in separating from God is to impede the plan in whatever way possible.

Here is my take on all this. Once again pointing out that I am looking at this based on their premise. Now, this explains several things that are left unexplained by the Bible. The first of which is it explains why we were put on earth. They created a necessity for bodies, and a necessity for going to earth through the "Plan of Salvation". Second, it explains the schism of God and Lucifer. This was in desperate need of explanation because Satan seems smart enough to figure out that he can't fight God. This plan gives Satan a reason to fight God without hope for defeating God in a direct battle. Overall, if you accept the general premise of the Christian, Muslim, and Jewish religions, this is a very feasible way for things to have worked.

The people in the church itself are very nice. I must say that as human beings I walked out of that church with a large amount of respect for every one of them. The male head of the ward, which basically seems to translate to the church, walked up to me because he recognized that I was new. We had a conversation and he seemed like a nice man. I told him I was looking at different religions to see which ones look good. Later, he came into the small study group of men and talked briefly about how they should learn a lesson from me about re-affirming their convictions.

The Mormon religion is also very centered around the family. The marriage bond is supposed to be stronger than death. It continues into the after-life supposing you have married another mormon. If nothing else this creates very strong bonds between husband and wife. I tend to admire the bonds the family shares regardless of the reason that it exists.

Things that suprised me about the Mormon religion is their concentration on happiness which suprisingly, though they don't define it as such, highly resembles Rand's definition of it, their rejection of the mind-body dichotomy (this also roots from the "Plan of Salvation" in which the formless sole recieves a body and is brought back to heaven. It is said when they are brought back the heaven the body is perfect and without blemishes), and their general open-mindedness about their religion not often seen in anyone who adheres to a strict belief system such as Mormonism. My main dislike in a system such as Mormonism is the number of rules (non-objective side note: I like coffee) but even those are explained as suggestions for health instead of rules that are strictly enforced. Those who do so do it because they believe in it.

Overall I rather liked the Mormon religion as far as religions go. Basing it off their premise it is believable enough, and it seems to create good people. On a religious scale of one to ten I would give Mormonism a nine. Check it out and see for yourself, I personally don't believe it, but I believe that you can definitely gain insight from it.

Edit: This has been edited twice, once to amend the last sentence slightly, once to clarify an assertion.

Edited January 15, 2007 by Michael Stuart Kelly

[Victor Pross]

Jeff,

Here is a 'commandment' that I would give to any church or religion:

If I were to speak your kind of language, I would say that Man’s only moral commandment is: Thou shalt think. But a “moral commandment” is a contradiction in terms. The moral is the chosen, not the forced; the understood, not the obeyed. The moral is the rational and reason accepts no commandments.

But I know they won't 'obey' it. :turned:

-Victor-

[Danneskjold]

Haha, point taken. Still, as far as religions go, I was rather impressed with this one.

(For anyone out there reading this thread, I have been very careful to state that I am basing my talk on the original premises that are set out by the religion. Don't take it like I believe it.)

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

This article has been moved from "Chewing on Ideas" to here and it is the start of a series called "With My Own Eyes." I predict that this will become a charming little series.

The honest "look, see and report" style Jeff exhibits toward religion is something sorely needed in the Objectivist world. He does not mock religious beliefs based on Rand's observations and think he understands all he needs to know. He is going to the places of worship and seeing what is found there, both good and bad.

This is so very much my way of doing things: identify, then judge.

Great job, Jeff. I wish you the best on this venture for your own learning and for our reading.

Michael

[Victor Pross]

Been there. Done that. Seen enough.

Jeff, I look forward to your writings, too.

-Victor

[Chris Grieb]

Jeff; Impressive report. I must add a couple of thoughts. Most of the Mormons I have met impressed me. They seemed productive. A contary view: a friend of mine who is working on a book on comparative religion spend a very long time studying Mormonism. At the end of which she told me that if she had seen Mormon missionaries on a highway she would have tried to run them over. She no long feels that way I am happy to say. Jeff; one more question are the men and women separted at the church?

[bmacwilliam]

Jeff:

"Basing it off their premise it is believable enough,"

Hmm... Do you know the story of where the "book" came from?

Besides, everything you need to know about this and other crackpot religions like scientology etc. is covered quite nicely in South Park episodes.

Bob

[Danneskjold]

Chris,

The men and women are only seperated for the last hour of church.

Bob,

Yes, something about a Jewish tribe or a large family migrating from Israel to North America. This was said to have happened because they prayed and an angel came to them. They then migrated to North America writing down everything on brass tablets. While they were in North America, Jesus came to them (this was shortly after his death). I definitely agree that it sounds like a stretch, however, it also sounds pretty easy compared to Noah's trick. I am, however, not very knowledgeable past that, and that is pretty bare bones of the story so I can't say anything really. From a biblical standpoint (this is what I used on my mom when she was criticizing the religion) if Noah can pull off forty days and nights in an arc with two of each species, I'm sure the Atlantic Ocean isn't that big of a challenge. Once again that's their premise, not mine.

As for South Park, I love that show. But hey, according to South Park only Mormons go to heaven (I swear). Even though it does imply that being in heaven with all Mormons only would be worse than hell.

[blackhorse]

Jeff, I was raised Mormon. As a matter of fact, I live in Logan, Utah now. I became a Deist about 9 years ago, but still appreciate some aspects of mormonism (as far as religions go). Hell, 99% of my friends are Mormon. I was actually born in Provo Utah, but my family moved to Sacramento when I was just a few months old after my dad graduated from BYU. If you have any questions about LDS theology please feel free to ask. Mormon's stress excellence in their personal and work lives as well as the importance of rest and relaxation. They're not all a bunch Jesus freaks!-and "hell-fire" and damnation, like most christian churches. They're not caught up in 'jesus this' or jesus that' like the born-again christians are (from my personal experience the vast majority of 'born-again' christians think that the LDS church is straight from the devil himself. Mormons integrate a lot of 'objectivist' concepts per se. If you ever visit Utah (especially the Utah County) you'd be amazed at how clean and beautiful the city is and how totally low the crime rate is. The vibe that you get from the people is positive and joyous. The standard of living in Utah is amazing, which reflects the religious-philosophy of the Mormon doctrine. Albeit, I find much I disagree with in the religion, but as a whole I find mormons to be fun and intelligent individuals to associate with. I have noticed that a lot of Mormons are sympathetic and accepting of much of the Objectivist ethics.

Edited January 15, 2007 by blackhorse

[Rich Engle]

It's all been said here as to upside.

Talk about productive, you talk about Mormons.

I'm a Unitarian, and I find myself finally being able to get along with ALMOST any religion. Almost.

The thing with Mormons, there's different ones like most religions. The Church of Latter Day Saints, they have slick marketing, and they tend to grind on me in that regard...

Yeah, the story from which all Mormonism comes is, for the most part, not unlike something that would happen if you had too much psychotropics. You have to interpret it through understanding mysticism. Same thing with the Quakers. Oy, that guy was a real handful...

Jeff, be sure to go to a Unitarian Universalist church. They're not ever similar to each other, but you'll see a whole lot of different people with different religious bases, all together. It's a very fun experience, and usually, excellent free eats after service-- coffee and conversation. Sometimes, often, you find people into Rand there, go figure.

[sjw]

Overall I rather liked the Mormon religion as far as religions go. Basing it off their premise it is believable enough, and it seems to create good people. On a religious scale of one to ten I would give Mormonism a nine. Check it out and see for yourself, I personally don't believe it, but I believe that you can definitely gain insight from it.

Religion is the primary reason why evil runs amok in the world. The worst thing about it is that it preaches the inpracticable--thereby creating pragmatic people who don't give a damn about moral principle. The LDS church cons its members out of a full 10% of their income per year, and many more hours per week than the 3 you spent there. Why on earth would you want to shrink your focus so narrowly that they could end up with a 9/10 on any scale? What's the point of comparatively judging religions? Is that kind of like comparatively judging dictators? If you're gonna do it, at least label the scale correctly. Label it the scale of evil.

Note that I am not talking about judging the individual members. They should be judged as individuals, not as "Mormons".

[Danneskjold]

Religion=evil, which means that when I say "Religious scale of 1-10" what I really mean is "1-10 Scale of Unadultrated Evil". If religion implies evil then you have nothing to worry about, Shayne. As to why I judge/rank them, well, I judge everything, and rankings are inevitable any time you judge multiple things.

Edited January 15, 2007 by Jeff Kremer

[sjw]

Religion=evil, which means that when I say "Religious scale of 1-10" what I really mean is "1-10 Scale of Unadultrated Evil". If religion implies evil then you have nothing to worry about, Shayne. As to why I judge/rank them, well, I judge everything, and rankings are inevitable any time you judge multiple things.

I don't ask why you judge, I ask why you judge on a relative rather than objective scale, why you focus narrowly on the good while seeming to ignore the big picture evil. I mean, every evil thing in the world has at least some "good" elements if we stare closely enough and drop enough context.

[blackhorse]

Objectively, Mormonism is much more friendly and receptive to Objectivism then Islam could ever be. That's not an endorsement of LDS theology, just a statement based on an objective comparison between Mormonism and Islam's ability to incorporate objectivist ethics into their respective religious lifestyles qua doctrine. Some religions ARE better than others at accepting and incorporating objectivist tenants. Sure, no religions would be best, but comparatively speaking not all religions are alike.

Edited January 15, 2007 by blackhorse

[sjw]

Objectively, Mormonism is much more friendly an receptive to Objectivism then Islam could ever be. That's not an endorsement of LDS theology, just a statement based on an objective comparison between Mormonism and Islam's ability to incorporate objectivist ethics into their respective religious lifestyles qua doctrine. Some religions ARE better than others at accepting and incorporating objectivist tenants. Sure, no religions would be best, but comparatively speaking not all religions are alike.

True enough. E.g., Mormons think we can become like god, and they don't believe in original sin. On the other hand, Mormonism takes huge chunks out of your life and pocketbook! I think it's hard to say what's worse. But my point certainly was not that all religions are identical!

[Rich Engle]

There is always the statement that religion, in general, has more evil than good.

And then if you press... "ALL?" You can get a little backsliding once in awhile. All these evildoers, or at least the confused; if only they could be liberated.

Yeah, I think the Inquisition sucked monkey-balls, just like the Crusades, just like just like...

Any institution, any, can be a vehicle for the devious. Where religion was evil, politics was equally evil.

They were worse when they were intertwined more than they are now. More disaster than dignity.

A good way to see what's doing and what's not is to evaluate on the congregational level. That's the turf, that's where the action is. Look at what they are DOING. Then you'll know.

Like MSK I find it commendable that Jeff is doing a tour. That way, he will have more to speak from than pure O-doctrine, limited personal experiences, and anecdotal material.

But, he's probably in for a few funky services. Ah well...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

In terms of pure evil, I am now reading a book called Without a Prayer by John Robbins where I came across a very interesting observation. (There are many points where I find Robbins wrong and even strange, but he has strong insights sitting beside those parts. Actually, I don't think I have ever read a book where profound insight is juxtaposed—not merged—with pure garbage in such short bursts like he does—all without apology or any attempt at logical consistency.)

He makes a point that, just as the different religions do not agree on what God really is, the different schools of reason do not agree with each other on what reason really is either. If you sum up the numbers in purely evil human destruction, like the millions and millions killed and tortured, more evil has been done in mankind's history in the name of reason in a short time than ever was done in the name of faith over centuries. Objectivists doesn't call Communism based on reason, but the Communists sure do.

On the present "doom-and-despair theocracy-threat to America" campaign launched by ARI, this fact should be kept in mind. The fundamentals go way beyond religion.

Michael

[Chris Grieb]

Could the reason we are impressed with Mormons is that they are Americans. It is one of two churches begun in the United States. I mean there is something called the American sense of life.

[John Dailey]

Chris:

~ You may have something there! Apart from that, what with a daughter-in-law Mormon convert (near 'evangelical' for a while) and acquaintenceship with her husband, kids (one living with us for college-commuting), and parents, I'm a bit familiar with the territory experientially; no, we don't get into 'theological' discussions: they're all aware of *my* view of any so-called 'benevolent' god, re my Down Syndrome g-child we raise.

~ However, the cultural history of the Mormons is more fascinating than it's revelations-theology. It, like Quakers/Amish/Jews (most sects) is extremely '(LIKE-MINDED) community'-oriented, ergo, of course, 'family'-oriented. Great as far as such goes, but, this being a primary focus means what when the 'kids' are grown? The 'community' is the 'family'; and who is the leader/authority there? --- Can one say such 'bonding' is a manipulation to keeping one oriented at a 'tribalism' mentality?

LLAP

J:D

[Rich Engle]

Even a lockstep Objectivist, if they are attentive to AR's work, would, I think, not be able to say that religion is the biggest cause of misery in the world. Even she had the Attila and Witchdoctor idea. So even if you go with just that, it's only half!

[emb021]

Yes, something about a Jewish tribe or a large family migrating from Israel to North America. This was said to have happened because they prayed and an angel came to them. They then migrated to North America writing down everything on brass tablets. While they were in North America, Jesus came to them (this was shortly after his death). I definitely agree that it sounds like a stretch, however, it also sounds pretty easy compared to Noah's trick. I am, however, not very knowledgeable past that, and that is pretty bare bones of the story so I can't say anything really. From a biblical standpoint (this is what I used on my mom when she was criticizing the religion) if Noah can pull off forty days and nights in an arc with two of each species, I'm sure the Atlantic Ocean isn't that big of a challenge. Once again that's their premise, not mine.

There is more to the 'story' of where the "book of mormon" came from then that.

The book of mormon gives a very detailed history of the Americas before the Europeans arrived. It speaks of empires built, and later destroyed by the Native American, etc.

These were all written down on gold tablet in a language called "Reformed Egyptian". Maybe I should mention there is no such language?

Joseph Smith, who had a reputation in his area (as well as his father and other relatives) of treasure hunting for non-existant treasure (even getting into trouble with the law for 'treasure scrything'), found the tablets and were able to translate them with a 'seer stone'. (later this was changes to special specticles). Once translated, the tablets and specticles disappeared. Hmmm.

Now, say what you will about the Bible, much of what it speaks of does have historical basis. Not all, of course, but much. The Book of Mormon, btw, speaks of a lot of prehistoric info about the Americas that has NO historical basis, which has yet to every be backed up by any archaeological finds. Hmmm.

It has been claimed that the Book of Mormon was cripped from an unpublished 'science fantasy' book speaking of lost civilization. There is a published book that some say it was an inspiration for the book. Another funny thing is the book includes scriptures taken from the Bible. Scriptures which have been found to be mistranslation of the original Bible. How could the BoM have mistranslated Bible scriptures? hmmm.

Its also interesting that the church has some other, less well known aspects. Ask about the secret mormon underwear (you can see scans on-line). Also, many of the church ritual conducted in the Mormon temples ONLY for members are heavily based on Masonic rituals. Smith was a mason.

Also, take some time to find out what happened at the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Also, check out the story about blacks and the church.

There are some good articles on Wikipedia (and the internet) on some very serious issues with the church. Here are two:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies...tter-day_Saints

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mormonism

I know several mormons. Nice people. But I don't care about their religion.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Michael Brown

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Speaking of which, Jeff, when are you going to church again? Or have you had enough?

Michael

[Chris Grieb]

No one has mentioned that one of the leading GOP candidates is a Mormon. Mitt Romney is already being attacked for his religion by people who are as irrational. It will be interesting to watch. Jeff; I want a new report too but take your time.

[BAMF]

Too busy playing WoW, Jeff?

*visits the church of satanism*

[Danneskjold]

I'm planning on going to a Buddhist church when next I get the chance. My friend said she would take me, but lately I've been busy.

As far as Mitt Romney goes, I heard from my history teacher that there was a poll out saying that 42% of Americans said that they will not vote for a mormon. Now, if I thought that 42% of Americans know enough about Mormonism to decide that they do not share in the values of Mormonism, I wouldn't be concerned. However, I do not think that 42% of America actually knows what Mormonism is all about (I don't think 42% of America even knows what America is all about).