What's up with Kanye?

[KorbenDallas]

I hate to see Kanye self-destructing like this.  He needs an intervention, whether it be psychiatric, psychological, spiritual, cognitive, emotional, or personal.  The trick is for him to get the right help at the right time by the right people.  You'd think the life-altering events like losing Adidas and losing Parlor would be a wake-up call, but he keeps spiraling downward and getting worse.  By the way, I think his song "Heartless" is one of the best R&B songs of all time; I'd like to see him get back to that version of Kanye, but I'm afraid he's already done too much damage and people are going to dismiss him out-of-hand when they hear the very mention of his name.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, KorbenDallas said:

I hate to see Kanye self-destructing like this.  He needs an intervention...

Korben,

This is where you and I differ.

I don't want to force Ye to be different than what he chooses to be for his own life.

You do.

You just said so.

You want people to confine him and reeducate him to your way of thinking, right?

You want to label his current choices as "mental illness" so you can have a moral justification to use force to confine him and mold him to your choices, right? 

You know how to live his life better than he knows how, right?

 

That's a premise I myself had to learn how to check when I was younger. Even after I had read Rand.

I've got stories, but later. Leave it to say this was a hard lesson.

 

So long as Ye's not hurting anyone, like causing endless wars for profit, injuring and maiming others through bioweapons experiments, stealing people's money, doing pedophilia, and so on, it's his life.

Not mine.

And his life is not yours either.

 

If Ye finds he needs a different direction in life and it starts with burning down the things of his own that he produced, things that he finds he can no longer live with, that's his choice.

If Ye were an architect, he might even go further. He might even want to blow up a housing project that he designed because of the way people were using his work to promote evil.

Would you call that mental illness, too? Would you force Howard Roark into an intervention so you could reeducate him and pump him full of drugs?

 

I recall a lady who once wrote:

Quote

I swear by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

Yet from what you just expressed, you would take Ye's life and force him to live for the sake of your wishes.

I learned a different message and I came to different conclusions about how to respect the lives of others.

Michael

[ThatGuy]

On 12/3/2022 at 11:33 AM, KorbenDallas said:

You'd think the life-altering events like losing Adidas and losing Parlor would be a wake-up call,

Adding to MSK's mention of Howard Roark [edit: which I hadn't originally seen yet when I first wrote this]: The other way to look at that is: "What does it profit a man to gain the world, but lose his soul?" (Especially is a company like Adidas may be in on the child exploitation and what-not, like that Balenciaga nightmare...)

By that logic, Roark should have compromised his designs to gain more commissions...maybe Roark should have been given an intervention and got "the help he needed"? "You'll be one of us! You'll BELONG!"

(And ditto to what MSK said; "Paging Dr. Szasz...")

[ThatGuy]

9 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

This is where you and I differ.

I don't want to force Ye to be different than what he chooses to be for his own life.

You do.

You just said so.

You want people to confine him and reeducate him to your way of thinking, right?

You want to label his current choices as "mental illness" so you can have a moral justification to use force to confine him and mold him to your choices, right? 

You know how to live his life better than he knows how, right?

"Paging Dr. Szasz, Dr. Thomas Szasz..."

[KorbenDallas]

A virtue is the action by which one gains or keeps values; Kanye's recent actions have lost his deal with Adidas, Parlor, and to a lesser value his Twitter account.  Antisemitism is anti-value, anti-virtue in any reality so we're seeing cause and effect in Kanye's life play out right in front of our eyes--he's not taking actions to keep his values (Adidas) or gain his values (Parlor).

I really don't like it for him but at this point amassing a billion dollar net worth is going to be near impossible since I believe he's doing irreparable damage to his reputation.  I'm afraid what's coming next for him will hit him more personally, I wouldn't be surprised to see Kim Kardashian petitioning a judge for reduced visitation with his children, or worse no visitation at all.

I haven't said Kanye has a mental illness, I don't know what's going on internally with him but it's obvious his actions have changed recently and he's losing his values. 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, KorbenDallas said:

A virtue is the action by which one gains or keeps values...

Korben,

Nice try, but that does not explain why you want to see people use force on Ye to confine him.

I didn't see you retract that, so I can only conclude this is what you still hold.

So you disagree with Ye's idea of virtue when he doesn't force it on anyone? And that is cause for you (or those you agree with) to initiate force against him?

Where in hell did you learn that was correct ethics?

Heh.

I know where. The mainstream and woke culture. Lefties. Feelings over reason.

 

It seems like you want an exception from reality so your whims can prevail over another human being's life. 

If you are sure you don't, then answer this.

Did Howard Roark show virtue, did he "gain or keep" any values, by blowing up a public housing project instead of taking lots of money from people he despises?

And if you believe he kept his virtue, integrity, even though it destroyed his reputation, how do you know that Ye did not do the same?

Because you feel?

Because money?

Because you want him to be polite?

 

 

Premise check. You are indicating you would lock up Ye because he won't sit down and shut up and just sing and dance to take money from people he finds despicable anymore.

Non-initiation of force is a real basic concept in the O-Land and libertarian world.

It might be a good idea to brush up on it.

But, it's your mind.

You decide whether you want to check premises or not.

But no rationalization on earth is going to make using force on a nonviolent person not using force on a nonviolent person. It's a reality thing.

Michael

[ThatGuy]

1 hour ago, KorbenDallas said:

A virtue is the action by which one gains or keeps values; Kanye's recent actions have lost his deal with Adidas, Parlor, and to a lesser value his Twitter account.  Antisemitism is anti-value, anti-virtue in any reality so we're seeing cause and effect in Kanye's life play out right in front of our eyes--he's not taking actions to keep his values (Adidas) or gain his values (Parlor).

I really don't like it for him but at this point amassing a billion dollar net worth is going to be near impossible since I believe he's doing irreparable damage to his reputation.  I'm afraid what's coming next for him will hit him more personally, I wouldn't be surprised to see Kim Kardashian petitioning a judge for reduced visitation with his children, or worse no visitation at all.

I haven't said Kanye has a mental illness, I don't know what's going on internally with him but it's obvious his actions have changed recently and he's losing his values. 

A virtue is the action by which one gains or keeps values; Ayn Rand's actions, [when she called called John F. Kennedy a fascist and compared him to Hitler] have lost her deal with Bennett Cert, Random House, and a million dollar offer from a Texas oilman who wanted her to add religion to her books and philosophy.  But Kennedy was a beloved president, and Atlas Shrugged challenged 2000 years of Christianity, and anti-Christianity is anti-value, anti-virtue in any reality so we're seeing cause and effect in Rand's life play out right in front of our eyes--she's not taking actions to keep her values (Random House) or gain her values (a million dollars).

I really don't like it for her but at this point amassing a million dollar net worth is going to be near impossible since I believe she's doing irreparable damage to her reputation.  I'm afraid what's coming next for her will hit her more personally...

I haven't said Rand has a mental illness, I don't know what's going on internally with her but it's obvious her actions have changed recently and she's losing her values. 

(See how that works? And is this basically not the argument of the religious Right against her, that's she's the anti-Christ, and is going to Hell?)

 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I knew there was something tugging at my memory.

Empathy.

Compassion.

That's why some people want to lock Ye up for his own goddam good until he is reprogrammed.

They feel for him. They feel empathy. They feel compassion.

Oh, cruel world that just doesn't get it.

 

Here is what I remembered, from a post of mine back in 2007. 

btw - The post is here. But I am quoting it below without the quote function because it keeps folding in on itself. 

 

I have a favorite story from Ambrose Bierce about shooting little animals. It is from Fantastic Fables.

QUOTE:

The Sportsman and the Squirrel

A SPORTSMAN who had wounded a Squirrel, which was making desperate efforts to drag itself away, ran after it with a stick, exclaiming:

"Poor thing! I will put it out of its misery."

At that moment the Squirrel stopped from exhaustion, and looking up at its enemy, said:

"I don't venture to doubt the sincerity of your compassion, though it comes rather late, but you seem to lack the faculty of observation. Do you not perceive by my actions that the dearest wish of my heart is to continue in my misery?"

At this exposure of his hypocrisy, the Sportsman was so overcome with shame and remorse that he would not strike the Squirrel, but pointing it out to his dog, walked thoughtfully away.

END QUOTE

 

 

It's not that these virtuous fellows refuse to see it.

It's that they have so much empathy and compassion, they can't.

Pure normative before cognitive thinking.

But isn't it odd?

They always have others around to do their dirty work and tidy up reality for them.

 

Michael

[william.scherk]

On 11/25/2022 at 10:58 PM, william.scherk said:

As with Elvis, Prince, Michael Jackson, George Michael -- when all of the closest people to you are somehow employees,  living off your dime or per your grace and favour, it can do things to relationships.  Doctor Feelgood is always available ...

...

On 11/26/2022 at 6:33 AM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

How about doctors who dope up celebrities and prompt mental imbalances in them worse than fame did?

I named some major stars surrounded by entourage/enablers who hastened death. Whose cases are you indicating that we can usefully compare and contrast to, say, Elvis's league of Doctors Feelgood?

Who What Killed Elvis? 

On 11/26/2022 at 6:33 AM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

And the people who pay those doctors?

Colonels Tom?

Edited December 6, 2022 by william.scherk
Major, minor fifth: Colonels Tom (Parker)

[william.scherk]

On 11/25/2022 at 10:58 PM, william.scherk said:

Bipolar disorder can be a rocket ride -- just when you need calm, rational insight the most, you are least capable of it -- and you will tend to shut out anyone who tries to get you re-moored to prosaic reality.

Two emdashes, one comma. Looks like it could be a sentence. But it ain't. We can try to Hemingway it by eye or AI. I'll try the deepfake chat remix with "Summarize:". Then maybe "Expand this à la OLer Taylor."

I'd settle for a clinical abridgement. 

On 11/25/2022 at 10:58 PM, william.scherk said:

So, Ye might find himself being used for somebody else's Gunpowder Plot? It's a fairly old human story, so I'll not discount the possibility. If I had to pick a single predatory actor in that melodrama, it would be Milo.

If I had to pick, I'd say letting Milo join your entourage has upsides and downsides. 

Snooker!

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

William,

Milo is disgruntled and smart enough to be effective at damage in a revenge story, even bitchy enough to do it (possible). But only up to a point.

He's not the predator. He's just a pissed off trickster.

He's not the one eating...

Michael

[MisterSwig]

On 11/29/2022 at 9:28 AM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

And it can get toxic as all hell. The "N" word, just by saying it, makes the moral content of a person's character change in reality for many. At one minute, a person is a fine upstanding person. The "N" word pops out for whatever reason, even an innocent one like saying how disgusting it is, and the person's character has changed to rotten and his history is suddenly erased. 

The only way to change this is for good people to stop censoring themselves. Just say "nigger" if you want to refer to the word. Instead you say "n-word" which makes us all think the word anyway.

As for Kanye, I never liked him. I still don't like him. He's some kind of Christian nationalist, playing at being Christ-like by declaring his "love" for everyone, including Nazis. Except he seems to have more distasteful things to say about Jews than Hitler. I think he feels like a gimp, that's why he wears the mask. I don't think he's a genius. If he were, he wouldn't have signed the contracts about which he's currently bitching. He's a simple hedonist, and hedonism is what sells in today's culture, whether you're lusting after whores or Jesus.   

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

31 minutes ago, MisterSwig said:

The only way to change this is for good people to stop censoring themselves. Just say "nigger" if you want to refer to the word. Instead you say "n-word" which makes us all think the word anyway.   

MS,

If that is a gesture insinuating I have moral cowardice, you need to become better informed.

There comes a moment in running a forum where you want to choose your battles, or spend all your time swatting at flies.

If you are enamored with that word, look it up in the search function. You will find it here on OL.

Me saying it, too.

I just don't feel like fighting about it is a good use of my time right now. And posturing about it in the current context is one way to attract flies. It doesn't change anything. It just attracts flies.

 

As to Ye, you have your opinion. I have mine.

I prefer to hold my contempt for people who kill and maim innocents and things like that, not people who, in their own half-assed ways, are fighting for freedom of speech.

I haven't seen Ye maim or kill anyone yet. I have seen the people who run the companies you want him to sign contracts with promote pedophilia and support wars for profit and pay for politicians who work to establish authoritarianism in the government. And guess what the rap culture sponsored by those companies call people like Ye? He said he's getting tired of being called that.

 

We just disagree on who is more moral, I guess.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Here.

People who don't like Ye might like this article from the highly moral Washington Post.

Kanye West’s hate-spewing, career-tanking descent through the alt-media

Kanye West’s hate-spewing, career-tanking descent through the alt-media

WWW.MSN.COM

---

As Kanye West spewed more antisemitism, there was always another low-rated cable show, podcast or webcast willing to host the fallen star.

This moral journal wants Ye--and people like him--to sit down and shut up.

That's the culture and politics they want.

 

Michael

[MisterSwig]

5 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

If that is a gesture insinuating I have moral cowardice, you need to become better informed.

There comes a moment in running a forum where you want to choose your battles, or spend all your time swatting at flies.

I don't know why you censor yourself, and I wasn't insinuating. I accept that you don't want to spend your time swatting flies. But did you expect to have to swat flies for spelling out that word on this thread? Here you are swatting because you *didn't* spell it out. It works both ways.

For the same reason I say "pseudowoman" instead of "transwoman," I say "nigger" instead of "n-word." I don't want to spend time swatting that voice in my head asking why I'm censoring myself among friends.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 minute ago, MisterSwig said:

I don't know why you censor yourself, and I wasn't insinuating. I accept that you don't want to spend your time swatting flies.

MS,

You just answered your doubt in the same breath you expressed it.

If you want to find the meaning behind the meaning in this issue, you won't find it in my head. 

As Freud used to say, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

9 minutes ago, MisterSwig said:

I don't want to spend time swatting that voice in my head asking why I'm censoring myself among friends.

MS,

I see.

I'm not censoring myself among friends.

A public forum is not like a private house. Search engines and so on.

You do things over at Facebook and YouTube.

Have you ever noticed flies?

 

Michael

[MisterSwig]

29 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

You do things over at Facebook and YouTube.

Have you ever noticed flies?

Sure, but I don't try to swat digital flies. That's what the block button is for, when necessary. And I've only had to block a few people. I do, however, engage serious opposition if there's any to be found.

 

BTW - That article was garbage, as I'm sure you detected. I tend to avoid MSM reports on such things. I watch alt-media or alt-commentary, and if there's anything interesting, I dig up the original sources. In this case, I watched Kanye's interviews themselves, instead of relying on reports. I frankly don't trust any news source these days, if I can help it 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 minute ago, MisterSwig said:

BTW - That article was garbage...

MS,

(blinking eyes with affectation)

Do tell.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

4 minutes ago, MisterSwig said:

... I don't try to swat digital flies. That's what the block button is for...

MS,

When traffic swarms become intense, this takes up a lot of time. Those suckers just keep coming.

Once your stuff grows, you will see what I mean.

 

This lead me to think about something. I, personally, like the attitude of a guy named Styxenhammer666. He lets everyone say what in the hell they want. He calls trolling "shit posting." He makes a video, then let's people sort out the fallout as they will.

I like that approach a lot, but Styx only posts on sites owned by others like YouTube, BitChute and so on. And comments to a video are vastly different than a discussion forum. 

Still, I would adopt his system if not for one thing. Here in O-Land, for some damn reason, shit-posting turns into bullying and the bullies become obsessive. They hone in on a person and they just won't stop.

This applies to Objectivists and non-Objectivists. I don't know what causes that, I think it is control freakish at root, but I have learned that reason almost never works to get the bullying to stop. Trying to keep discussion interest alive when the bullying starts is a big honking time suck.

Michael

[MisterSwig]

1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Do tell.

I sensed the BS from the opening line: "In the end, it wasn’t CNN, the New York Times or The Washington Post that exposed Ye’s explicit antisemitism." Huh? Back in October WaPo published a piece calling Kanye antisemitic for his "death con" tweet. And this new article even links to that old article. Clearly the MSM had much involvement in the exposure of Kanye's alleged antisemitism. It appears that now they don't want the credit. Which is the real story. Why doesn't WaPo want credit for helping to expose Kanye?

 

At the end of the article the author states a so-called "irony" in amplifying a problem by acknowledging it. Another confused, BS line. You amplify *awareness* of the problem, which is a good thing. Not ironic, unless your goal was to conceal the problem by exposing it.

[Marc]

Is Kanye crazy or are the people calling Ye crazy? 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

4 hours ago, Marc said:

Is Kanye crazy or are the people calling Ye crazy? 

Marc,

As Alex Jones told Ye in the interview, we're all fucking crazy. The whole damn world.

 

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Now for a little clean-up, not that it's going to mean anything to the fake news media.

Exclusive – Trump Denounces Fuentes: ‘Nobody’ That Embraces Antisemitism Has a Place in America First Movement or GOP

Exclusive - Trump Denounces Fuentes: ‘Nobody’ That Embraces Antisemitism Has a Place in America First Movement or GOP

WWW.BREITBART.COM

---

Former President Donald Trump unequivocally denounced Nick Fuentes and other antisemites in an exclusive interview with Breitbart News on Friday.

This is going to sit in the back pages where nobody reads it.

And that is a metaphor for the entire kerfuffle. This dinner with Ye should not have been in the news. It was nothing but a lot of misinformation screamed at the top of the fake news's voice.

Propaganda.

But now there is something on public record specific to this event that gives the truth.

The mainstream media is disgusting and a bunch of liars.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Now that the dust has settled about Ye and he's left the headlines, it's time to look at the underbelly of what is going on. Maybe use a little reason instead of peer pressure. Sound good?

   

 

The maggots I see crawling around the underbelly have a name: struggle session.

I came across a fantabusoulsy great video by James Lindsay that explained the flare-up and underbelly perfectly, although the examples he discussed are different. You will find the video in a post I made on the Coronavirus thread (see here). But for convenience, here it is again.

And here is a comment I made in that post that is pertinent to this one to help set the context.

On 1/7/2023 at 4:09 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

If you want to see how propaganda turns into brainwashing in practice, not just in theory, James gives you a prime example and an insider look going back to Robert Jay Lifton's work on political persuasion that leads to violence, particularly the struggle sessions of the Mao regime in Communist China.

And here's the best part for me. You will even see how the brainwashed are and are not brainwashed at the same time. Their fundamental nature never goes away as they acquire a new persona. They become split between a secret person and a public one--and even those two get split.

From that angle alone, this video is fascinating.

 

So let's look at the public dustup.

Have you noticed that the important thing for everyone involved in the Ye-Jewish thing was for EVERYONE who had an opinion to preface their remarks with a public statement saying how awful and disgusting antisemitism is and how Ye is disgusting and blah blah blah?

That is how a struggle session gets into your soul and changes it.

For the person making the statement, their emotions are involved. They are honestly stating how they despise bigotry. And that part is true.

But what about the rest? Well, for the people demanding they make that statement, the issue is not bigotry. It is compliance with the agenda and the group.

Bigotry is merely the hook.

If you do not sing out against bigotry in trumpeted tones of self-righteous anger, you will be excluded from the group and otherwise despised.

 

Now, what do you do if you are like me and you ask, "Why should I make a strong heartfelt public statement about something I don't think about? Why do you demand this from me?"

After all the yelling dies down, the only answer left is: for me to put the group's opinion in my mind over my own value judgments.

 

I can abhor bigotry, Hitler and the rest, without being on a soapbox about it. And here's the important point I am trying to make. Do I think and feel a lot about Hitler and antisemitism in my everyday life? Very rarely. That stuff has little to do with the things that are important to me like fiction writing, neuroscience and story, and things like that.

Also, at the same time, I can find Ye silly and misfiring in a publicity stunt. And this also has to do with the point I am making. Is anything Ye says about anything going to change my mind about anything? No. I only think about Ye when other people are bitching about him. I don't listen to his music and I don't guide my ideals based on what he says. In other words, I hardly ever think about him.

And the following kicker in my point. Do I believe in free speech? Hell yes I do. And free speech can get ugly. Just like with Rand defending pornography on the basis of abhorring thought crime, I defend Ye's right to say anything he wants to say about how good he thinks Hitler was. That's what free speech looks like. I embrace it.

That is all me. That is what I think and believe down deep.

 

So... looking at this thread, do I need a public shaming of Ye and a public denunciation of him as anti-Semitic and a bigot? No. On the contrary. At first I found this idea silly. Now I find it toxic.

Do I need to preface EVERYTHING I say about Ye's right to free speech with a moral denunciation of Ye and outrage at his so-called bigotry? No. I rarely think about him. And, besides, when I do, I don't see a bigot. Why don't I see that? Because it's not there. Ye's entire life, at least what I know of it, is my context for judging his publicity stunt.

 

However, if I go along with the group and proclaim to the four winds how evil Ye is blah blah blah (in a public heartfelt manner), I will leave a little piece of my soul behind as James Lindsay says. I will take what I truly think and believe and divest it of emotion (except maybe guilt for thinking and believing it), then add self-righteous outrage to an idea that I do not believe (crucify Ye!).

Then what happens?

I become one of the herd, not just in behavior, but inside my soul.

The brainwashing starts to take.

 

That's how it's done.

Michael