Peter Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Merjet quoted, “After all is said and done, there's way more said than.” -- Aesop, Anonymous Say what? We’re lost, but we are making good time. Yogi Berra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 13 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: [....] Michael, wow for the post I linked above. (I used the quote function so you'll get a reply notice.) You've gone deep into dynamics that have puzzled me from the start of my experience of the Objectivist world. Thing is, I haven't been paying more than fringe attention to what Objectivists have been saying about Trump. Except for horrified responses Larry got from old friends when he cc'd them with some material favorable to Trump (last June or thereabouts), I've primarily only seen indications which you, and some others, have posted. I haven't been going to the sources. From what you say, the incredulity about Trump's progression is amounting to a full-scale crisis of belief in Certainties, like a religious crisis of faith. That's a lot more basic than a snob factor. I think that very possibly you're right in your analysis. Fascinating, if so, that the election of someone who I think O'ists should have been hoping, hoping, hoping would win reveals the disparity between ostensive content of Objectivism and the dogma reality of how Objectivism has functioned. I'll be rereading your analysis multiple times and might have further to say about it Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 17 hours ago, anthony said: I think that, privately many in all parts are longing for President Trump to pull the US back, away from Europe's descent into altruism-collectivism (if they knew what that is) and be an exemplar of sanity in the world. While not becoming isolationist. For the altruist-collectivists, they ~know~ what they're losing, the US as a sacrificial victim, and that explains their emotional reactions for me. I, too, think that there are many round the world who have the hope you state, and agreed that "the altruist-collectivists" know what they are losing, hence the viciousness of the reactions. Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeyfoot Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 On 12/16/2016 at 6:55 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said: *Not a response to MSK* I havent heard Trumps rationale over Mexico paying for our wall. The US allowed illegals into the country (he says 'they" send), why is there an expectation that someone other than ourselves pay for our need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules Troy Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 And Trudeau is an idiot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Michael Stuart Kelly said: My frame is that Trump has succeeded beyond anyone's wildest expectations and will continue to do so (if the pattern holds, which I believe it will). end quote I too, am optimistic, like Ellen. Sometimes I actually cheer at the television. Ah, good day to you, my good buddy, President Trump. Where can we safely, save money? Places like Panama have nixed plans for a new U.S. base though I think we still have a few communications stations there. It’s the same for the Philippines. South Korea still has around a dozen U.S. military faculties. I see Camp Casey, South Korea, where I served is still there, though the seventh infantry outside of the camp, but where I also served, has moved back to the states. South Koreans have protested the expansion of U.S. bases. North Korea is still an insanely risky regime, so I would be careful there. Germany? Ach du lieber! There are 37 U.S. military facilities in Germany and only one is scheduled to close. Is Putin that great a risk? We have Diego Garcia Air base in the Indian Ocean, and Guam which is a territory, etc. We have global air defenses, and quick strike forces, if needed. Peter Notes. From Wikipedia: Survey among Japanese and Okinawans. While 73.4% of Japanese citizens appreciate the mutual security treaty with the U.S. and the presence of the USFJ, part of the population demands a reduction in the number of U.S. military bases in Okinawa. In May 2010, a survey of the Okinawan people conducted by the Mainichi Shimbun and the Ryukyu shimpo, found that 71% of Okinawans surveyed thought that the presence of Marines on Okinawa was not necessary (15% said it was necessary.). Asked what they thought about 62% of United States Forces Japan bases (exclusive use) being concentrated in Okinawa, 50% said that the number should be reduced, 41% said that the bases should be removed. Asked about the US-Japan security treaty, 55% said it should be changed to a peace treaty, 14% said it should be abolished and 7% said it should be maintained. Many of the bases, such as Yokota Air Base, Naval Air Facility Atsugi and Kadena Air Base, are located in the vicinity of residential districts, and local citizens have complained about excessive aircraft noise. From Reuters By Manuel Mogato | MANILA The United States will upgrade and build facilities on Philippine military bases this year, Manila's defense minister said on Thursday, bolstering an alliance strained by President Rodrigo Duterte's opposition to a U.S. troop presence. The Pentagon gave the green light to start the work as part of an Enhanced Defense Cooperation Agreement (EDCA), a 2014 pact that Duterte has threatened to scrap during barrages of hostility towards the former colonial power. "EDCA is still on," Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana told a news conference. EDCA allows the expansion of rotational deployment of U.S. ships, aircraft and troops at five bases in the Philippines as well as the storage of equipment for humanitarian and maritime security operations. Lorenzana said Washington had committed to build warehouses, barracks and runways in the five agreed locations and Duterte was aware of projects and had promised to honor all existing agreements with the United States. This week, Republican U.S. Senator John McCain, who headed the U.S. Senate's Armed Services Committee, proposed $7.5 billion of new military funding for U.S. forces and their allies in the Asia-Pacific. The geopolitical landscape in Asia has been shaken up by Duterte's grudge against Washington, his overtures towards erstwhile adversary China, and the election of U.S. President Donald Trump, whose administration has indicated it may take a tough line on China's activities in the South China Sea. The Philippines has said it wants no part in anything confrontational in the strategic waterway and will not jeopardize promises of extensive Chinese trade and investment, and offers of military hardware, that Duterte has got since he launched his surprise foreign policy shift. Lorenzana said the Philippines had asked China for two to three fast boats, two drones, sniper rifles and a robot for bomb disposal, in a $14 million arms donation from China. The arms package would be used to support operations against Islamist Abu Sayyaf militants in the southern Philippines, he said. "If these are quality equipment, we will probably buy more," he said. Lorenzana said Russia was offering hardware such as ships, submarines, planes and helicopters. As with China, those offers have come as a result of a charm offensive by Duterte, who has praised Russia and its leadership. He last year said if Russia and China started a "new order" in the world, he would be the first to join. Duterte was infuriated by U.S. expressions of concern about extra-judicial killings in a campaign against drugs he launched after he took office in June. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jules Troy said: And Trudeau is an idiot... Well, as they say, yeah. But as far as the chaotic roll-out of this fresh National Security Presidential Memorandum goes, Trudeau had nothing to do with it. Quote Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau asked his national security adviser, Daniel Jean, to touch base with Trump's national security adviser, Michael Flynn, to seek clarification. "NSA Flynn confirmed that holders of Canadian passports, including dual citizens, will not be affected by the ban," the embassy said in a statement. "We have been assured that Canadian citizens traveling on Canadian passports will be dealt with in the usual process." The subject is sensitive for multiple reasons. Canada and the United States are major trade partners, and each provides the other with numerous tourists every year. And for many people who immigrate to either country, especially refugees from the seven targeted Muslim-majority states, it's normal to have relatives in both Canada and the United States. The fact that Canadian officials were scrambling to figure out how the U.S. move would affect them underscored the haphazard way in which the executive order came out. Within the U.S. government, officials in agencies such as the State Department, which must help implement the order, were given little to no input by White House officials who drafted it, according to multiple sources. The result has been confusion about how the order applies on multiple levels. For instance, the order doesn't contain the phrase "dual nationals." It just says "foreign nationals." But, for now, U.S. officials have decided that includes dual nationals. And it's not entirely clear on what legal basis Canadian dual nationals are exempt. Also unclear is why Canadian officials were only able to get confirmation from Flynn. POLITICO has repeatedly asked the State Department and the Department of Homeland Security how Canadians are affected, but has been either ignored or told that those agencies are still seeking clarity themselves. -- it looks to me that the NSPM wasn't vetted by those who would interpret and enforce it, that the DHS/State/NSA issued no guidelines for enforcement of in-transit passengers by staff at airports such as JFK. Which information blackout resulted in rumours, stupid and/or hysterical reaction, and misreported facts. And general hoopla: Quote TOP ITEMS: CNN: Inside the confusion of the Trump executive order and travel ban — Trump's unilateral moves reflect the President's desire to quickly make good on his campaign promises — But they also encapsulate the pitfalls of an administration largely operated by officials with scant federal experience – Discussion: Fox News: DHS will continue to enforce Trump's travel ban Jake Jones / AOL: Rudy Giuliani says Trump's travel ban is about danger, not Muslims Maxwell Tani / Business Insider: ‘Apologies for nothing here’: White House officials dismiss protests, defend immigration order Esme Cribb / Talking Points Memo: Conway Claims Judge's Ruling 'Really Doesn't Affect' Trump's Executive Order Joe Jervis / Joe.My.God.: McCain Blasts Trump's “Radical Departure” In Placing Steve Bannon On National Security Council [VIDEO] Jonathan H. Adler / Washington Post: President Trump may hire “only the best people” … Gary Leff / View from the Wing: Despite What You've Heard Most of Trump's Executive Orders on Travel Haven't Been Stopped David Edwards / Raw Story: Ana Navarro opens can of whoop ass on Jan Brewer: 'Muslims think it's a Muslim ban' Damian P. / Damian J. Penny: See what happens when you don't listen to your lawyer? Axios: Latest on Trump refugee ban Susan Wright / RedState: Chaos With Trump's Travel Ban Likely Caused By Inexperience, Bad Advice David Atkins / Washington Monthly: Trump's Cruel Muslim Ban Highlights Need for SCOTUS Blockade Undercover Blue / Hullabaloo: Worldwide furor by @BloggersRUs Justin Baragona / Mediaite: 'Because You Don't Stop Talking, Chuck': Priebus Battles Todd Over ‘Extreme Vetting’ Executive Order Andrew Prokop / Vox: This CNN report shows what an utter mess Trump's immigration order rollout was Anne Laurie / Balloon Juice: Early Morning Open Thread: On Beyond Fustercluck Steven L. Taylor / Outside the Beltway: “It's working out very nicely” » All Related Discussion RELATED: Michael D. Shear / New York Times: White House Official, in Reversal, Says Green Card Holders Won't Be Barred — WASHINGTON — A top White House official appeared to reverse a key part of President Trump's immigration order on Sunday, saying that people from the affected countries who hold green cards will not be prevented from returning to the United States. – Discussion: Natasha Geiling / ThinkProgress: Priebus suggests immigration ban should be expanded to more countries Tom Maguire / JustOneMinute: Trump's Immigration Action Ryan Pickrell / The Daily Caller: White House: Green Card Holders Not Barred, But Subject To ‘Additional Scrutiny’ Alex Leff / PRI: These are the new instructions the State Department rushed to embassies worldwide Taegan Goddard / Political Wire: Priebus Now Says Green Card Holders Won't Be Barred Max Greenwood / The Hill: Immigration ban includes green card holders: DHS Bwittes / Lawfare: Malevolence Tempered by Incompetence: Trump's Horrifying Executive Order on Refugees and Visas — The malevolence of President Trump's Executive Order on visas and refugees is mitigated chiefly—and perhaps only—by the astonishing incompetence of its drafting and construction. – Discussion: Michelle Ye Hee Lee / Washington Post: What you need to know about terror threat from foreigners and Trump's executive order Nahal Toosi / Politico: What about Canada? Trump's immigration order sows confusion Charles C. W. Cooke / National Review: Trump's Executive Order Covers Green Cards — That Makes No Sense Jonathan Hafetz / Balkinization: Trump's Refugee Order and The Initial Judicial Resistance Liam Stack / New York Times: Trump's Executive Order on Immigration: What We Know and What We Don't Gary Leff / View from the Wing: Legal Immigrants Who Were on Flights to the US When Trump's Executive Order Was Signed Have Been Detained J. Bradford DeLong / bradford-delong.com: Should-Read: I believe that Mike Pence, Mitch McConnell … Rowena Mason Deputy / The Guardian: Theresa May ‘does not agree’ with Donald Trump's immigration ban CNN: Trump's big mistake on Syria refugees Scott Lemieux / Lawyers, Guns & Money: The Trump Administration's Incompetence Is Exceeded Only By Its Malevolence, And Vice Versa Daniel Dale / Toronto Star: Trump bans Canadian dual citizens from 7 Muslim-majority countries from U.S. Michelle Mark / Business Insider: ‘Diversity is our strength’: Justin Trudeau says refugees are welcome in Canada Paul McLeod / BuzzFeed: Canadian Officials Say The White House Told Them Citizens Won't Be Affected By The Trump Bans Alyssa Zauderer / New York's PIX11: Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau welcomes refugees to Canada following Trump's ban Kevin Drum / Mother Jones: Yet Again, Republicans Demonstrate the Mean-Spiritedness at the Dark Heart of Their Party Adrienne Mahsa Varkiani / ThinkProgress: Here's your list of all the protests happening against the Muslim Ban Krishnadev Calamur / The Atlantic: What Trump's Executive Order on Immigration Does—and Doesn't Do USA Today: Trump immigration ban blocks migrants from boarding jets, leads to airport detentions Joe Jervis / Joe.My.God.: Legal US Residents With Green Cards Held At Airports, Told To Go Back Where They Came From [VIDEO] Ed Morrissey / Hot Air: CBS: This week in executive orders ... Meteor Blades / Daily Kos: ACLU lawsuit filed over Trump ban on refugees. NY congressional reps get airport detainees released Roland Oliphant / Telegraph: Donald Trump bans citizens of seven countries, visa-holding travellers turned away from US borders Tamer El-Ghobashy / Wall Street Journal: Trump Visa Ban Also Applies to Citizens With Dual Nationality, State Department Says Allegra Kirkland / Talking Points Memo: DHS: Green Card Holders Also Barred Under Trump Immigration Ban David French / National Review: Trump's Executive Order on Refugees — Separating Fact from Hysteria — The hysterical rhetoric about President Trump's executive order on refugees is out of control. Let's slow down and take a look at the facts. — To read the online commentary, one would think that President … – Discussion: RealClearPolitics: Separating Fact From Hysteria on Trump Refugee Order Terresa Monroe-Hamilton / John Hawkins' Right …: Did Soros bankroll protesters to fight Trump's refugee orders? Alison Smale / New York Times: European Leaders Reject Trump's Refugee Ban as Violating Principles Kathy E. Gill / WiredPen: Protests erupt across the nation in response to Trump immigrant ban Tim Hanrahan / Wall Street Journal: Text of Trump Executive Order on Barring Refugees NBC News: Trump Travel Restrictions Leave Refugees Stranded: Reports Alex Kane / The Nation: Resistance Trumps Hate as Protesters Rally Against Anti-Immigrant Executive Orders Michelle Mark / Business Insider: 'It's not a Muslim ban': Trump defends controversial executive order on refugees as protests erupt Maquita Peters / NPR: Federal Judge Stays Deportations, Blocking Part Of Trump's Immigration Order Bryan Schatz / Mother Jones: “Immoral,” “Stupid,” and “Counterproductive”: National Security Experts Slam Trump's “Muslim Ban” Allegra Kirkland / Talking Points Memo: GOP Rep Urges Halt To Trump's Executive Order Banning Refugees Bethania Palma / New Urban Legends: Protesters Gather at JFK Airport After Travelers Detained Due to Trump's Executive Order Shannon Carlin / Refinery29: Protests Of President Trump's Refugee Ban Break Out At Airports Across America Washington Post: Pandering to fear — THE EXECUTIVE ORDER that President … Josh Feldman / Mediaite: Iraqi Man at JFK Has Been Released After Being Detained at Airport Seung Min Kim / Politico: Trump doubles down on refugee ban — President Donald Trump on Sunday doubled down on his executive order to severely curb the entry of refugees and legal immigrants — insisting on Twitter that America needs “extreme vetting” to avoid the “horrible mess” elsewhere, and suggesting it was Christians who deserved priority in admissions. – Discussion: Jeff Stein / Vox: Trump says his ban will protect Christian refugees. He just sent 6 back to the Middle East. Tom Boggioni / Raw Story: ‘A nightmare come true’: Trump's refugee ban exiles two persecuted Christian families back to Syria Jazz Shaw / Hot Air: So the courts want to fight the President on immigration policy Cameron Cawthorne / Washington Free Beacon: Gates Defends Trump's Use of Executive Orders Kevin Drum / Mother Jones: Trump's Immigration Fiasco Might Be More Premeditated Than We Think – Discussion: Dave-Dr-Gonzo / alan.com: Bigoted ex-Breitbart boss personally overruled DHS on green cards David Edwards / Raw Story: Steve Bannon personally overruled DHS decision not to include green card holders in travel ban: CNN Maxwell Tani / Business Insider: 'You don't stop talking, Chuck': Chuck Todd grills Trump chief of staff over immigration executive order Ogged / Unfogged: How Wide Is The Rubicon, Anyway? J.D. Durkin / Mediaite: Federal Judge Grants Stay Putting Trump's Immigration Executive Order on Hold Timothy B. Lee / Vox: Thousands of people are protesting Trump's immigration order at airports across America Laurie Goodstein / New York Times: Christian Leaders Denounce Trump's Plan to Favor Christian Immigrants – Discussion: Mallory Shelbourne / The Hill: McCain, Graham: Trump order may become ‘self-inflicted wound’ in terrorism fight Dan Spencer / RedState: Christian Leaders Denounce Trump's Plan to Help Persecuted Christian Refugees Domenico Montanaro / NPR: FACT CHECK: Trump Tweets On Christians, ISIS And Vetting Miss The Bigger Picture Laura Vitto / Mashable: The internet isn't too happy about Ivanka Trump's fancy dress tweet Washington Post: 'These are people's lives they are playing with': World's airports turn into limbo for many under Trump order Joe Jervis / Joe.My.God.: Trump Angrily Defends His Immigration Ban Sarah Lee / TheBlaze: Trump's refugee ban also affects Iraqi and Afghan interpreters who helped American servicemen Jim Hoft / The Gateway Pundit: UN Urges Trump to Continue Offering Asylum to Refugees into US Dorian de Wind / The Moderate Voice: Trump's Actions Turn a Quiet Saturday into a Day of Chaos (UPDATES) William Cummings / USA Today: Trump says he will make Christian refugees a priority New York Times: Donald Trump's Muslim Ban Is Cowardly and Dangerous – Discussion: Jen Chung / Gothamist: 4 More Detainees Released From JFK Airport As Fight Over Muslim Ban Continues Frank Lea / John Hawkins' Right Wing News: Donald Trump slams the New York Times, what he said has them shaking Esme Cribb / Talking Points Memo: Giuliani: Trump Asked Me How To Enact A Muslim Ban ‘Legally’ Judd Legum / ThinkProgress: Federal judge halts implementation of Trump's Muslim ban at airports Jeff Stein / Vox: Top Republicans denounced Trump's Muslim ban on the trail. Now they support his executive order. J.D. Durkin / Mediaite: Michael Moore Implores People to Protest at Their Closest Int'l Airport Against ‘This Bigot’ Digby / Hullabaloo: Random stories of shame Matt Zeller / Washington Post: Trump shuts the door on men and women who have sacrificed for America Emma Hinchliffe / AOL: Iranian filmmaker barred from Oscars after Trump's Muslim ban Business Insider: Federal judges block deportations in emergency rulings on Trump's immigration order – Discussion: Aaron Blake / Washington Post: Trump's travel ban is causing chaos — and putting his unflinching nationalism to the test Emma Whitford / Gothamist: Immigration Attorney Unpacks ‘Narrow’ Stay Order And What It Means For Those Still In Detention At JFK Amelia Edelman / Refinery29: Federal Judges Grant Temporary Block Of Trump's Deportation Orders CBS San Francisco: Protesters Gather At SFO For A Second Day Immigration Prof / ImmigrationProf Blog: Trouble in Paradise? Trump Executive Order Creates a Global Firestorm of Controversy Cristina Laila / The Gateway Pundit: Breaking: Federal Judge Issues Emergency Stay On Trump's Executive Order Preventing Deportation Of Muslim Travelers Jerry Markon / Washington Post: Judge halts deportations as refugee ban causes worldwide furor – Discussion: CNN: The executive order — On Friday, Trump signed an order banning travel … QJurecic / Lawfare: Trump Administration Faces EO Setbacks in Four Courts Alan Yuhas / The Guardian: Trump White House defends travel ban as John McCain warns of benefits to Isis Conor Friedersdorf / The Atlantic: The Betrayal of Legal Immigrants Who Followed the Rules Kevin Daley / The Daily Caller: More Court Orders Stymie Trump's Immigration Order Michelle Mark / Business Insider: Protests against Trump's immigration order have erupted across the country — here's what they are like Brad Plumer / Vox: A (very short) list of Republicans in Congress who have criticized Trump's immigration order Taegan Goddard / Political Wire: Trump Administration Defies Judge's Order Mark Sumner / Daily Kos: Trump denies ban on Muslims is a Muslim ban, declares 'it's working out very nicely' Michelle Mark / AOL: 'It's not a Muslim ban': Trump defends controversial executive order on refugees Ryan Saavedra / The Gateway Pundit: Judge Who Blocked Trump's Order Was Nominated By OBAMA On Recommendation Of CHUCK SCHUMER Dave-Dr-Gonzo / alan.com: TRUMPED! Judge grants stay of Trump immigration order Seung Min Kim / Politico: GOP splits on Trump immigration order Sfrantzman / Seth J. Frantzman: Obama's administration made the “Muslim ban” possible and the media won't tell you – Discussion: Steve Watson / Infowars: Epic - Is Team Trump Baiting Liberal Media and Refugee Protesters By Using Obama's Own Policy? AMERICAN DIGEST: Obama's administration made the “Muslim ban” possible and the media won't tell you Thegrio / AOL: Trump's Muslim ban excludes Muslim countries linked to his business empire Scott Shane / New York Times: Immigration Ban Is Unlikely to Reduce Terrorist Threat, Experts Say Glenn Reynolds / Instapundit: PROF. JACOBSON: Most claims about Trump's visa Executive Order are false or misleading. Spencer Ackerman / The Guardian: Iraqis lament Trump travel ban that disregards their service to America Ann Althouse / Althouse: “The public should be suspicious of Trump's policies and the media should speak truth to power … Donald J. Trump / CNN: Full text of Trump's executive order on 7-nation ban, refugee suspension Digby / Hullabaloo: Trump's rich Muslim friends will be an exception Joseph Hincks / Fortune: These Countries with Business Links to Trump Aren't Part of His Immigration Ban Hunter / Daily Kos: Trump's Muslim entry ban targets refugees, not terrorists—and skips over his own business interests William A. Jacobson / Le·gal In·sur·rec· tion: Debunking the supposed “Muslim Ban” and other accusations-gone-wild. Vox Popoli: Panic at the effectiveness Peter Hasson / The Daily Caller: Majority Of World's Muslims Untouched By Trump Visa Ban Chris Sommerfeldt / New York Daily News: President Trump's Muslim ban excludes countries linked to his sprawling business empire Chris Geidner / BuzzFeed: Federal Judges Push Back Against Trump Order, Stopping Deportations Nationwide – Discussion: Doug Mataconis / Outside the Beltway: Protests And Court Orders Push Back Against Trump's Muslim Ban Dara Lind / Vox: Federal judge halts Trump's immigration order — but only for those already here Scott Shackford / Hit & Run: Federal Judge Stays Trump's Order to Remove Immigrants, Refugees Here Legally Margaret Gonzales / ACLU: ACLU and Other Groups Challenge Trump Immigration Ban After Refugees Detained at Airports Following Executive Order Now we Canadians are officially reassured (by National Security Adviser Flynn) that Canadians are exempt from "extra vetting" now confusing everyone at US points of entry -- mere hours after being told (by State) that dual-nationals were included in the temporary bar to entry. Which is kind of weird, since the text of the NSPM leaves no room for that precision. It looks like different folks were scrambling to figure out the implications of the text as written. Perhaps this incompetent roll-out is due to multiple failures outside the White House. But some evidence exists that the administration did not allow review which would have flagged the enforcement implications. The DHS had a few things to say today. Everything is going nicely. Quote Department Of Homeland Security Response To Recent Litigation Release Date: January 29, 2017 For Immediate Release Office of the Press Secretary Contact: 202-282-8010 Yesterday, less than one percent of the more than 325,000 international air travelers who arrive every day were inconvenienced while enhanced security measures were implemented. These individuals went through enhanced security screenings and are being processed for entry to the United States, consistent with our immigration laws and judicial orders. The Department of Homeland Security will faithfully execute the immigration laws, and we will treat all of those we encounter humanely and with professionalism. No foreign national in a foreign land, without ties to the United States, has any unfettered right to demand entry into the United States or to demand immigration benefits in the United States. The Department of Homeland Security will comply with judicial orders; faithfully enforce our immigration laws, and implement President Trump’s Executive Orders to ensure that those entering the United States do not pose a threat to our country or the American people. Edited January 29, 2017 by william.scherk Unspoiled a spoiler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 14 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: As an addendum, Frankl wrote in Man's Search for Meaning: This is the key he came to for spiritually surviving great hardship. This doesn't have anything to do with Trump or his O-Land critics. I just think it's a cool quote. (Another way of saying it is nature to be commanded must be obeyed, including spiritual nature as each understands it.) Michael Agreed. A very cool quote. Frankl was a closet Stoic in many ways. That may be one reason why you like him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 (yawn) (The yawn refers to the court decision about the travel ban. ) Here's what I wrote about the judge's stay elsewhere yesterday. Quote Wow, does this smell like Trump's negotiating style. In other words, ask for waaaaaaay more than you want, then when you negotiate down to it, what you really want will feel like a concession to the opponent. People with green cards and other similar cases where paperwork already was done properly got caught up in Trump's ban. The left is screaming bloody murder and might even win a court case or two on it as this gets sorted out, but I think the rest of the ban will proceed exactly how Trump wants it to without strenuous opposition. In fact, I think that's all he wanted in the first place. And the doofuses causing the current shit-storm will think they won--even congratulate themselves and say, "Man, that was a close call." Is this ban still going to be a fist fight? Very likely. Is Trump going to win again? Yup. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 9 hours ago, merjet said: More blah, blah, blah, blah, including a lot of psychologizing hogwash. Merlin, I love it how you, through some esoteric process I haven't been able to understand, turn Trump's physical skyscrapers into "psychologizing hogwash." I can't think of a better example of Trump's "doing" than point to his skyscrapers. I stand in awe when people pretend those big fucking buidlings don't exist. Maybe if I study long and hard enough, I can learn to do that, too, when I grow up. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merjet Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 13 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Merlin, I love it how you, through some esoteric process I haven't been able to understand, turn Trump's physical skyscrapers into "psychologizing hogwash." Jeesh, how dense can you be? I didn't refer to Trump's physical skyscrapers. I referred to the hogwash that you write! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 5 minutes ago, merjet said: Jeesh, how dense can you be? I didn't refer to Trump's physical skyscrapers. I referred to the hogwash that you write! Merlin, And I was writing about his skyscrapers with "doing." Others see it. You don't. My meaning is as obvious as the skyscrapers you ignore. So how dense can you be? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Here's some more "psychologizing hogwash" that just came in from Scott Adams. He sees what I see. The Persuasion Filter and Immigration He uses different words, but I have been saying the same thing he has. Here is one of the mains ideas in his words (my bold). Quote ... Trump always opens with an extreme first offer so he has room to negotiate to the middle. . . . The Persuasion Filter says that’s his strategy. Because that’s ALWAYS his strategy. He acts the same way every time. He wrote a book about it. He talks about it publicly. Then he does it right in front of us, over and over. And no matter how many times he does it, half the country still thinks the opening offer is the real one. I’ve mentioned in this blog a few times that persuasion works even when the subject of the persuasion recognizes all the techniques as they happen. This is a perfect case. The left has been watching Trump make big offers and dial them back for the past year. And yet they still think this time it will be different. The Persuasion Filter says that 70-year old Trump will act the same way today as he has for the past several decades: Big first offer, then negotiate. Scott, actually, did a first rate analysis of the immigration ban. I might refer back to this article. But for the purposes of this post, that part is beyond the scope. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) We are getting sleepy, very sleepy. We are tired, tired, tired of winning ... 4 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: (yawn) Zzzzzzz. 4 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: I think the rest of the ban will proceed exactly how Trump wants it to In the best of all possible worlds, everything that Trump wants will become reality. It is a lovely thought. Quote without strenuous opposition I do not see this happening. No matter the common-sense contours of a Trump Directive, I think there will be strenuous opposition. It is in the nature of the American democratic beast; whether right or not, every president gets a vibrant/vicious partisan opposition. The opposition in this case was to effects of the rushed roll-out of a policy directive. The slop and confusion may have been intended, but I don't think we will get confirmation on that. "Yeah, we got exactly what we wanted: inter-agency confusion, the perception of incompetence, and leaks about disunion in the White House. It's all gravy." The ban roll-out was botched, apparently due to last-minute intervention by the Counsel to the President, who insisted on the inclusion of green-card holders against the advice of DHS. If the intention of the president was to galvanize opposition and the associated intense hoopla kersplash and fuffle, he got it. 4 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: this smell like Trump's negotiating style If you were a president, I do not think you would 'open negotiations' with an executive action. An executive action such as this NSPM. If you would as president not take advice that the executive action needed input from the enforcement agencies, then okay, Trump and his Counsel is your model. Let's hope there is more competence shown next time. The hoopla will die within days ... Edited January 30, 2017 by william.scherk THE HOOPLA AND KERFUFFLE AND KERSPLASHES WILL DIE WITHIN DAYS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 3 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said: From what you [MSK] say, the incredulity about Trump's progression is amounting to a full-scale crisis of belief in Certainties, like a religious crisis of faith. Plenty of illustrative quotes here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 32 minutes ago, william.scherk said: Let's hope there is more competence shown next time. William, Let me quote from Scott Adams above: "... no matter how many times he does it, half the country still thinks the opening offer is the real one." You do that a lot with Trump. Just like now. Trump didn't botch the immigration thing. He's well on his way to fixing it in reality, not words. And he knew a shit-storm was coming. That had to happen before this thing could get fixed. There's too much entrenched polarity. (btw - How many shit-storms does he have to create before you might consider he does shit-storms on purpose? ) This is a degree of competence that goes waaaaaaaaaaaay beyond gotcha. EDIT: btw - Notice that Trump is controlling the frame of the shit-storm. His opponents are merely reacting. They are not adding anything new to it. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: You do that a lot with Trump. You you you. You you. You. Truncquote. Out. My argument. 3 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: 3 hours ago, william.scherk said: Let's hope there is more competence shown next time. Let me quote from Scott Adams above: "... no matter how many times he does it, half the country still thinks the opening offer is the real one." Trump's opening offer was way back in the campaign, a total and complete Joo Mooslim ban ... until we figure out what is happening. That offer has been abandoned. Sadly, false memories can be long, and opposition 'negotiators' be prone to drag up and de-contextualize that 'muslim ban' #MuslimBan proposal now dead and gone etc. An executive order is then not a negotiating 'offer,' to my way of thinking. It is a binding action, an expression of executive power, an outcome of protracted work to define lawful procedure. It is in this case a detailed statement of official United States Rules -- a directive -- citing the statutes under which the powers are derived, decreeing a 'new' legal-administrative reality. In other words, a NSPM has force of law the moment it is signed. It is not an offer for a Deal. It is The New Deal. It doesn't appear on the White House site yet, but hey. From a more cynical point of view, if there is an absence of discussion of 'what went wrong?' with NSPM-3 after that signature it's because nothing went wrong. Yes, the universe is unfolding as it should, says the Great Adamssaysso. Hard-assed consequential US policy changes hypnotize themselves into fluffy and irregular 'negotiating' offers ... and the real action of power is in a mysterious dance of the seven veils with a "right wing" lurking about stage left. According to Adamssaysso, America's greatest hypnotist-cartoonist-soothsayer, Trump will semi-secretly falsely-appease this wing with faux-overreach sorry-Milo-can't-ban-em-all, then rabbits and hats, and everything will come in perfectly sound and just and protective and rosy and nice. The Real Deal. Which is perfect but as yet unknowable. There is a delightful exuberance in this kind of rosy red expectation. There will be mastery in all matters presidential, in every detail, because we should first assume mastery of all the details. And the reason for that is self-sealing. What can one say to that but "Whee!"? Summary: there were no mistakes made with The Directive, because Mr Thompson does not allow mistakes. It's all part of the plan, so get back to clapping in formation. -- to another topic, has anyone caught the opening offer that Steve Bannon join the 'cabinet' of both the National Security Council and the Homeland Security Council? The offer suggests Bannon will have top-level access to all the classified information, and will be in a position to 'invite' the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Director of National Intelligence to meetings if he thinks it fits their mandate. This 'offer' is contained in the White House's directive NSPM-3. Which is perfectly formed until further notice. Edited January 30, 2017 by william.scherk smile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 2 hours ago, william.scherk said: An executive order is then not a negotiating 'offer,' to my way of thinking. William, Your way of thinking is not Trump's way of thinking. An executive order is temporary (especially the one he did that's causing the shit-storm), not permanent law. His current context is setting up a radically different enforcement system than the muddle we now have, not getting elected like it was when he announced a Muslim ban. And he knew there would be challenges. Does anyone really believe Trump thought no one would object? Come on... This is reality. Trump didn't get elected by blind luck. It often sounds like I'm being critical in a derogatory sense when I say "you," but I'm not. We all live pegging our lives to core stories and the good guys just don't act the way Trump does in the progressive storyline you follow (typical characteristics of that storyline are science minutia, shaming, victimization, mockery of country folks--unless they are not Americans, big government, etc.). People like Trump in that storyline are grotesque ignorant gorilla-like overly-macho bullies. Note, it's not your fault you have a core story. We all do. Welcome to the human race. More and more I believe here on OL we do the hard lifting of challenging our core stories. I know I am far different re Ayn Rand than I was when OL started. One one hand, I have abandoned many of the errors--especially in behavior, but there are others--I have detected by looking with my own eyes. And on the other, I have a far greater appreciation of what she actually did do than I did before. Now I know how good many of her insights were from honestly thinking them through under harsh criticism and am not merely following the storyline. I think you do that, also, but with the progressive thing. I highly approve. (How's that for condescending? ) Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 There was a WaPo article recently claiming that Sarah Palin was finished (see here). I'll just let facts speak for themselves. From Breitbart: Exclusive — Sarah Palin: Media Hysteria over Trump’s ‘Immigration Ban’ Is Fake News on Steroids Expect to see a lot more from Sarah in the press. Here are the facts about her: 1. I have held for a long time, ever since Sarah first endorsed Trump, that he would help her undo the damage from the press propaganda campaigns against her and set her on the path to be president. 2. Steve Bannon, who was just promoted to the Principal's Committee of the National Security Council, made a 2011 documentary about Sarah (The Undefeated). People have noticed, even recently, how much Bannon cares for Sarah (see here from The Daily Beast last November, for instance: Steve Bannon’s Deep, Weird Adoration of Sarah Palin). 3. President Trump just signed an Executive Order (see here) severely limiting lobbying activity for years from his cabinet after they leave their posts. As Sarah is not part of Trump's cabinet, but has direct access to him whenever she wants, she gets to be "mentored" so to speak by both Trump and Bannon as she can bop all over the place lobbying for the conservative causes closest to her heart. 4. Sarah has a lot of chips to cash in when the time comes from Republican politicians who owe their elections to her efforts (fully or in part), starting with President Trump. For those who don't believe in this, watch and see. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Has anybody noticed that Trump has been on the front page of the news almost every day since shortly after he announced his candidacy (right when the press took up the "Mexicans are rapists" thing)? That's a long time to stay in the center of the limelight. Not even uber-famous celebrities with top-grade PR agents do that. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 This is more reason why people can't stand the mainstream media people. Look at this crap. How many times does Todd have to ask, re-ask, re-ask and re-ask a question and get the same answer before he moves on to another question? All he wanted to do was get Reince to break down crying and say how ashamed he was. And when that didn't come, he tried again... and again... and again... and again... It reminded me of trying to fish by beating the water with a hammer--and hammering and hammering and hammering but still no fish. Of course, Reince is about as proud as he can be to be doing what he's doing, he believes in it heart, mind and soul, so shame is the wrong hammer. But tell that to doofus Chuck Todd. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Heh... Must see: That face when the man released from detention at JFK says he likes Trump This is from Twitchy. You have to scroll down to see the video, but it's very short and well worth it. What a hoot. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Statement from the prez: Quote Donald J. Trump Statement Regarding Recent Executive Order Concerning Extreme Vetting “America is a proud nation of immigrants and we will continue to show compassion to those fleeing oppression, but we will do so while protecting our own citizens and border. America has always been the land of the free and home of the brave. We will keep it free and keep it safe, as the media knows, but refuses to say. My policy is similar to what President Obama did in 2011 when he banned visas for refugees from Iraq for six months. The seven countries named in the Executive Order are the same countries previously identified by the Obama administration as sources of terror. To be clear, this is not a Muslim ban, as the media is falsely reporting. This is not about religion - this is about terror and keeping our country safe. There are over 40 different countries worldwide that are majority Muslim that are not affected by this order. We will again be issuing visas to all countries once we are sure we have reviewed and implemented the most secure policies over the next 90 days. I have tremendous feeling for the people involved in this horrific humanitarian crisis in Syria. My first priority will always be to protect and serve our country, but as President I will find ways to help all those who are suffering.” How long will the fake news go on? How long, oh Lord... How long? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Repeteco. 11 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Here's a conspiracy theory for ya'. It's called bombing Muslim countries. Jimmy Dore below has a point, although I don't agree with everything he says. At the start of the video, he commented that nowadays lots of people are having a cow over not letting folks from certain Muslim countries into the US, but the US bombing the shit out of those countries seems to be fine. Hellooooo Obama... How's that for selective outrage? Or is it a conspiracy? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Regarding Trump's so-called "Muslim ban" (which it isn't), I wrote earlier: 15 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: ... he knew there would be challenges. Does anyone really believe Trump thought no one would object? Come on... This is reality. Trump didn't get elected by blind luck. Here's one of the better pundits, for what it's worth. And I'm not referring to Joe or Mika. I mean Jonathan Turley who said, "The court will not view this as a Muslim ban." He means the Supreme Court. Suck it up, cupcakes. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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